Starting QB 2019???

[nonniey]

On 4/4/2019 at 8:35 PM, samy316 said:

 

Yes, definitely.  He started last year, and if they're serious about winning, they would announce Rosen as he starter prior to camp.  Not to slight Keenum, but everyone knows that he's here as insurance once we get Rosen.  The odd man out might be McCoy.  Jay hates carrying 3 QB's, so Colt might find himself cut.  You don't get Rosen to then have him sit behind Keenum.  Rosen will easily win the QB battle at camp.

Heck no. Let Keenum start this whole year, he is equivalent to Alex Smith as it is, and train up Rosen. Side Benefit is it may maximize Keenums value for comp picks once he leaves next year (If he performs fairly well).

[bakedtater1]

Regardless of what the Skins trade for Rosen if they trade away picks for Rosen you can bet your bottom dollar he's the starter.

[Skinsinparadise]

17 hours ago, volsmet said:

 

I can tell you, with 100% certainty, Rosen is going to be a better QB than Alex Smith or Cousins. I’ll donate $1000 to the charity of the ES’s choice if there is any doubt in anyone’s mind by the time he’s 26. I’ll send you my information, heck, I’ll send you the money to hold, I don’t care, and it’s not possible that I’ll be wrong because it’s already there. 

 

 

Got some time to respond now to the parts I didn't yesterday.  If you are that certain that's cool.  I hope you are right assuming they acquire him.  The cliff notes version of my concern about him is what if he's an INT and fumble a game type of player.  I am not saying he is a turnover machine but there is some evidence on that front to be concerned.    You can't be a 2 turnovers a game QB in this league and survive long term.  And fumbles seems to be partly a function of how you naturally grip and handle the ball and I am not sure how easily that's fixed.

 

17 hours ago, volsmet said:

 

In my time on this planet I’ve watched more QB play than most scouts will in 60 years, my mothers baby brother is one of the best QB coaches to ever do it, this is not a difficult position to project once you have NFL film on a guy. 

 

Heck, you know I bought TrevorLawrence.com in July 2016 because, before anyone here had a clue who he was, I knew he was the best QB prospect I had ever seen. My unpopular opinions all become popular in time. Murray, Lawrence, and Rosen will soon follow. 

 

 

You've nailed on some players, indeed.  So I respect your take.  And hope you are right about the dude. 

17 hours ago, volsmet said:

 

I would Love to have a discussion on Rosen, pro’s v con’s. I would Love (another capital “l” for SIP) to read/view/consume everything you see and break it down with you. I

 

Reading your take on Rosen.  I don't think we are that far apart.  I like his attributes too and got into them in detail weeks back including showing clips that promoted what he could do.  Our difference seems to be that I see some red flags that makes me pause about him at the same time.   Like I said, my feelings are similar about Drew Lock (albeit they are different types of QBs).  There are aspects about Lock's game that I really love.  But also there are things that I don't.   

 

While I have some confidence in my ability as a layman to see strengths and weaknesses of QBs.  I don't per se have a strong feel for what can be fixed and what can't.  I know accuracy issues are almost impossible to fix.  But for example on Rosen, I don't have a strong feel for the root cause of the things that I don't like about his play.  So its hard for me to say with confidence that it can or can't be fixed. 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

[actorguy1]

Was hoping the Cardinals would be motivated to get Rosen out of there before their offseason program started. However, they have shown an inability to run their team in a sane manner and I could see them hard headed enough to wait on a first round pick offer all the way to draft day and even possibly beyond. Completely foolhardy on their part but not out of the realm of possibility.

[RWJ]

16 minutes ago, actorguy1 said:

Was hoping the Cardinals would be motivated to get Rosen out of there before their offseason program started. However, they have shown an inability to run their team in a sane manner and I could see them hard headed enough to wait on a first round pick offer all the way to draft day and even possibly beyond. Completely foolhardy on their part but not out of the realm of possibility.

I think IF they select Murray, Rosen will be traded before Draft night (Thursday) is over with.

[mistertim]

20 minutes ago, actorguy1 said:

Was hoping the Cardinals would be motivated to get Rosen out of there before their offseason program started. However, they have shown an inability to run their team in a sane manner and I could see them hard headed enough to wait on a first round pick offer all the way to draft day and even possibly beyond. Completely foolhardy on their part but not out of the realm of possibility.

 

Their FO is completely inept and they always seem to be showing it. The longer they wait the lower his price will be most likely. If they decide to wait until after the draft (or even until after the first round) then 1) some teams that might have been interested will have drafted a QB early and will no longer be in the market and 2) they will have selected Murray at #1 overall which means their hand is shown and everyone will know they have to get rid of Rosen. There's just no way they can realistically keep two back to back top 10 pick QBs on their roster. What else are they going to do, let Rosen sit all season and not take a snap? Then what will his value be in 2020 after not having taken a snap in a year? 4th rounder? 5th rounder maybe? The only thing they could hope for is that some team's starter has a horrible season ending injury during camps and they panic and trade a 1st for Rosen. But that's super unlikely. 

[Poindexter]

5 hours ago, nonniey said:

Heck no. Let Keenum start this whole year, he is equivalent to Alex Smith as it is, and train up Rosen. Side Benefit is it may maximize Keenums value for comp picks once he leaves next year (If he performs fairly well).

If we trade for Rosen then obviously he would get an opportunity to start considering he beats out Keenum.  However, I wouldn't be surprised if Keenum is part of a Rosen deal.

 

I honestly thing Rosen is going to be a true franchise QB.  He played behind the worst offensive line in the league and his talents were not recognized last year.  If we can get him for a second round pick and on top of that have Reuben Foster play to his potential then we have a team that has leaped into a position to become contenders.  Rosen should start day 1 if we can pull of the deal.  Plus our comp pick would be negated because i'm sure we would acquire a big name once we get rid of Norman and Alex Smith next year.

[Nerm]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

Their FO is completely inept and they always seem to be showing it. The longer they wait the lower his price will be most likely. If they decide to wait until after the draft (or even until after the first round) then 1) some teams that might have been interested will have drafted a QB early and will no longer be in the market and 2) they will have selected Murray at #1 overall which means their hand is shown and everyone will know they have to get rid of Rosen. There's just no way they can realistically keep two back to back top 10 pick QBs on their roster. What else are they going to do, let Rosen sit all season and not take a snap? Then what will his value be in 2020 after not having taken a snap in a year? 4th rounder? 5th rounder maybe? The only thing they could hope for is that some team's starter has a horrible season ending injury during camps and they panic and trade a 1st for Rosen. But that's super unlikely. 

 

It would be a longshot gamble, but they could try to pull off what Dallas did in 1989.  They took Aikman #1 overall, then took Jimmy Johnson's favorite QB (Steve Walsh, who won him a championship in college the year before) using their 1990 first round pick in the 1989 supplemental draft.  Amazing to think about, but the Cowboys used a first round pick on a QB AFTER using the #1 overall pick on a QB in the same offseason.  They got to compete for the job, and Aikman won... But Walsh showed enough that they were able to trade him for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks.

 

Rosen looked pretty bad last year, but if he shows some flashes of improved play in preseason, his value could improve... assuming that he doesn't win the job outright.  I'm not saying that it would be a smart move to keep both QBs, but if they think Rosen can be a good QB then it may be better to hold on for what they would consider fair compensation.  If they think he was a mistake, then they should take whatever they can get.

[mistertim]

2 minutes ago, Nerm said:

 

It would be a longshot gamble, but they could try to pull off what Dallas did in 1989.  They took Aikman #1 overall, then took Jimmy Johnson's favorite QB (Steve Walsh, who won him a championship in college the year before) using their 1990 first round pick in the 1989 supplemental draft.  Amazing to think about, but the Cowboys used a first round pick on a QB AFTER using the #1 overall pick on a QB in the same offseason.  They got to compete for the job, and Aikman won... But Walsh showed enough that they were able to trade him for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks.

 

Rosen looked pretty bad last year, but if he shows some flashes of improved play in preseason, his value could improve... assuming that he doesn't win the job outright.  I'm not saying that it would be a smart move to keep both QBs, but if they think Rosen can be a good QB then it may be better to hold on for what they would consider fair compensation.  If they think he was a mistake, then they should take whatever they can get.

 

No matter how good he looked in camp or preseason I see almost no way Rosen would set foot on the field this season absent an injury to Murray. The new rookie coach is getting to hand pick his guy and the fan base will be super excited about Murray. All of that points to him being their immediate guy. The new coach will have to prove he was right and will want to play with his new toy from day 1 and the FO doesn't want fans to be even more peeved if they don't get to see Murray suit up.

 

The Dallas scenario is true but IMO that's a uber rare one off scenario. Rosen did look pretty bad at times last year, definitely. But again his supporting cast (especially OL) was abysmal so for some things it really is difficult to tell whether it was on Rosen or more on the cast and coaching/system. If the Cards decide to not deal Rosen until late I think the likelihood is high that the price will keep going down and they'll end up settling for less than they were originally offered. The scenarios where his value would potentially go up are probably based on luck and hope. 

 

Then again, this is Arizona and Steve Keim we're talking about, so anything stupid is always a distinct possibility. 

[HigSkin]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

[Veryoldschool]

21 hours ago, JoggingGod said:

Oh yes I’d HATE to get a talented 22 year old QB for a 2nd and 3rd. Just an awful move. Real teams only use 7th rounders on QBs.

 

If he is so talented then why would the Cardinals abandon him?  Don't bother saying Rosen is tremendous but Murray or whoever is super tremendous so they just have to up to upgrade from tremendous to super tremendous because that just doesn't fly.  I've seen way too many busts to believe the Cardinals or any other competent franchise would drop a tremendous guy in the hope of getting a super tremendous guy in the draft.

 

Andy Reid must have made some bucks on the side explaining to the Cardinals how to super arouse Dan Snyder's erogenous zones as only Andy knows how.

[Veryoldschool]

 

12 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

How would that be a Dan Snyder move? Or do you just assign that moniker to anything the Skins do that you don't personally like? That actually doesn't really seem like a "Synder driven move" to me. No way we give up a 1st, so a 2nd rounder for a young, talented QB who was a top 10 pick and is on his rookie contract. Sure he has some red flags but he also some some very positive things about his game as well. I'd much rather do that than spend a 1st on a less talented prospect or even give up multiple picks to move up and get a guy like Haskins or Lock who's totally boom or bust. 

 

Some on here think Rosen is boom or bust as well and I somewhat agree, though I think his floor is high enough that if he didn't become great he could at least be serviceable. I'd rather spend a 2nd rounder on a boom or bust guy than a 1st, especially when IMO the guy you're trading a 2nd for was a better prospect than either of the other two in the draft. I think if Rosen were in this draft he'd easily be the 2nd QB off the board and wouldn't get out of the top 5.

 

We can agree that Rosen is young, unlike the fading glories that Dan got from Andy Reid but is Rosen talented? Phoenix no longer thinks so after a year of working with him because they looking to dump him in favor of a college player.  Don't bother telling me that Murray is so spectacular the Cardinals have to make the move because we all know if Rosen had come anywhere close to fulfilling their expectations they wouldn't be making this move. They wouldn't be making this move if they were even hopeful about Rosen.  

 

Does anyone remember a deal like this in the past that worked out for the acquiring team?  I can't recall something similar.   For whatever reason Rosen wore out his welcome quickly. 

 

I think Dan Snyder makes the calls like this, not Bruce Allen. 

[Nerm]

3 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Then again, this is Arizona and Steve Keim we're talking about, so anything stupid is always a distinct possibility. 

 

That is the biggest riddle in the Rosen situation for a casual fan like me who doesn't have any insight into scouting players.  We know Steve Keim is likely to be wrong about what he decides.  Now, the riddle we have to figure out is... Was he wrong to draft Rosen... Or is he wrong to get rid of Rosen after one year?  Can it be both?

[Nerm]

11 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

Does anyone remember a deal like this in the past that worked out for the acquiring team?  I can't recall something similar.   For whatever reason Rosen wore out his welcome quickly. 

 

Favre wore out his welcome with the Falcons after one year.  They suckered the Packers into giving up a first for him.

[Renegade7]

3 hours ago, HigSkin said:

 

 

Trading for someone then immediately trading them doesn't sound like something I hear of often in the NFL.  For clarification, isn't there a rule in the CBA against that?

[Veryoldschool]

7 minutes ago, Nerm said:

 

Favre wore out his welcome with the Falcons after one year.  They suckered the Packers into giving up a first for him.

 

Excellent!  Well, that certainly worked out for Green Bay, thank you for reminding us!

[Nerm]

11 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

Excellent!  Well, that certainly worked out for Green Bay, thank you for reminding us!

 

I just checked Favre's wiki page.  Falcons took him in the second.  He took five snaps for the Falcons.  His first was a pick 6.  His next three were two incompletions and another INT.  His final snap was an 11 yard sack.

 

Then, they trade him for a first.  It had to look great for the Falcons at the time.  But they didn't think to add a clause about additional compensation if Favre won three consecutive NFL MVP awards.

 

So, the lesson is, if another team gives up on a QB after one year, they are probably going to win a lot of MVP awards for their next team.  We have to learn from history.

 

[JoggingGod]

6 hours ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

If he is so talented then why would the Cardinals abandon him?  Don't bother saying Rosen is tremendous but Murray or whoever is super tremendous so they just have to up to upgrade from tremendous to super tremendous because that just doesn't fly.  I've seen way too many busts to believe the Cardinals or any other competent franchise would drop a tremendous guy in the hope of getting a super tremendous guy in the draft.

 

Andy Reid must have made some bucks on the side explaining to the Cardinals how to super arouse Dan Snyder's erogenous zones as only Andy knows how.

The Cardinals aren’t a competent franchise 

[Skinsinparadise]

The Rosen Market

Canvassing the league in recent days, I found two teams as favorites to acquire quarterback Josh Rosen, the 10th pick in the 2018 NFL Draft, if Arizona chooses to draft Kyler Murray and trade Rosen. I believe if this does happen, Washington is in the best position to do the deal. It could come down to whether Washington is willing to give a second-round pick instead of the third-rounder that obviously it would prefer to trade for Rosen.

Where I think it’s most likely Rosen could go:

1. Washington—Draft picks in top 100: 15, 46, 76, 96. Rosen would be an excellent scheme fit in the offense of coach Jay Gruden and offensive coordinator Kevin O’Connell. Gruden liked Rosen coming out of UCLA, as did O’Connell. This is a heavy play-action team that likes to throw from the pocket—both strengths of Rosen—and also likes throwing to the tight end. That’s up Rosen’s alley. Seems like the best match of need and availability. Interesting thing about potential compensation. I doubt the Cardinals will have an offer of a 2019 top-50 pick for Rosen; so close to the draft, teams hate parting with high picks. Mike Lombardi, former front-office exec with several teams, told me the other day that first-round picks are like new cars—once you drive one off the lot and own it even for a short time, it’s not worth nearly what it was when you bought it. That’s why I think Washington could try to hold out and pay Arizona the 76th overall pick instead of the 46th.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/04/08/nfl-non-mock-draft-first-round-fmia-peter-king/?cid=fmiatw

[Skinsinparadise]

Just listened to Sheehan, Cooley on it talked about Rosen as he's done before.  I admit I love Cooley's take on him because it mirrors mine and I did my review of Rosen before he did so I am not copying him here.   

 

In short, he doesn't think he is worth the first round pick.  But he likes his tools and would take him later in the draft.  He said at times he looks like he should have been the first pick in that draft.  However, in every game he has moments of what the heck was that, what are you doing, why did you make that throw?

 

He think he's a good fit for Jay's offense.  He likes to get the ball down the field which Jay likes to do.  He said Alex wasn't a good fit for Jay's offense.  Sean was more of the short-quick game guy than Jay.  Jay wants to get the ball down the field.   He wants some gun slinger.  And that's part of why he likes Colt McCoy.  He said Rosen is the definition of gun slinger.  The downside to that is he will throw picks and will fumble like crazy because he doesn't protect the ball in the pocket. 

[Jericho]

I think that King article referenced above is a pretty good analysis of the trade market. It lists 4 teams total, but puts Washington and the NY Giants as the two strong favorites for Rosen. I also like the new car analogy, Rosen isn't worth what he was a year ago. The Giants don't have a third rounder this year, which means they'd either have to give up their second rounder (which seems too high) or future picks to beat an offer of a 2019 third rounder. If the Redskins offer their 3rd rounder (76th overall), the question becomes who is willing to beat that?  A number of teams could (Miami, Denver, New England, New Orleans, LA Chargers), but will any of them? Part of that question will be how teams treat the young QBs in this draft. What happens to Drew Lock? Dwayne Haskins? Hell, even Daniel Jones I suppose.

[goskins10]

On 4/6/2019 at 11:42 PM, Veryoldschool said:

If the Skins trade for Rosen it is definitely a Dan Snyder driven move and like all other Synder moves a stupid one.  I should hope for it because it would finally be the blow that knocks me off the Redskin bandwagon.   Why my heart has vetoed my head for 20 years I don't know but surely if this happens I will listen to my head because the misery has to finally stop.

The off-season is not complete until we hear from VOS that he will leave his beloved Redskins if they....  Fill it in. 🙂  I think we all say something like that to ourselves about this time but VOS is kind enough to put it in print. The good news is we know that's just not possible. You tried so hard after he who not to be named, but you were here all season (we saw you. You can't hide!).  Just having a little fun. Please take is as good natured ribbing nothing more. 

 

I have to disagree with your take on Rosen, as long as they do not give up a 1. If they can get him for a 2, for me it's worth it. The team is CAP strapped thanks to bruce allen's idiocy. They did make a good move bringing Keenum in - as either trade bait for Rosen or a mentor. I actually prefer Keenum to stay here as a back-up but I know Jay loves him some Colt. 

 

If you trade a 2nd for him and maybe a late rd pick or throw in Keenum, then you can focus the draft on the other parts of the team that need attention - Oline, secondary, OLB, TE, WR come immediate to mind. You can check a few of those off in the draft and then see where you stand next year. If Rosen comes in and does well then you keep building. If not, you can now move on from him and Alex (I am pretty certain Alex is done), and reset. 

 

I tend to look at these things from a risk reward. For me the risk of bringing Rosen in and wasting a 2nd is lower than the potential reward of him having some success here. When I say this I do not mean one ism ore likely than the other, It's the negative impact of failure is less and shorter lasting than the positive impact of him being successful. 

 

Last but not least - full disclosure is that my ulterior motive here is that if they make a move for Rosen it will keep them from making a really stupid move like trading 2 1sts, a 2nd and a palyer to jump up for Haskins or worse, Lock. I honestly do not want them taking a QB in this draft. 

 

In a perfect world for me, they would do nothing more at QB abd roll with Keenum and cheap veteran that does not get injured every 30th play and let Colt go. If you go down in flames you can look at next years QB class which is much stronger. If you do well, cool! Build on that.

 

[JoggingGod]

18 minutes ago, Jericho said:

I think that King article referenced above is a pretty good analysis of the trade market. It lists 4 teams total, but puts Washington and the NY Giants as the two strong favorites for Rosen. I also like the new car analogy, Rosen isn't worth what he was a year ago. The Giants don't have a third rounder this year, which means they'd either have to give up their second rounder (which seems too high) or future picks to beat an offer of a 2019 third rounder. If the Redskins offer their 3rd rounder (76th overall), the question becomes who is willing to beat that?  A number of teams could (Miami, Denver, New England, New Orleans, LA Chargers), but will any of them? Part of that question will be how teams treat the young QBs in this draft. What happens to Drew Lock? Dwayne Haskins? Hell, even Daniel Jones I suppose.

Are you still in February?