Is a college degree really necessary?

[PleaseBlitz]

12 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

You're a lawyer. You're in the same boat as me, though I'm in the boat because of my wife not me.

 

It'll be free but we'll make too much money so it'll just be a billion dollars for our children to go anywhere, and our taxes will be used to send other people's kids to school.

 

Don't worry, we'll be able to afford it. That's why it's fair.

 

I'll emancipate her when she's 17.  

[Elessar78]

5 minutes ago, bearrock said:

 

I have an almost 9 year old, so when she's off to college, it will only cost half a billion.  So much win!

The painful realization that I'm still paying off my college loans while starting to save for my kids. And I don't even have it that bad with a low interest rate and a relatively small principle (unlike some kids these days).

[NoCalMike]

I will say that I have noticed that sometimes companies still do show favoritism towards employees with degrees, even if the degree has zero to do with the job or job being applied for within the company.

 

For example where I work almost every single posting on the internal job board under preferred skills will *always* list "typically has a degree in.....* despite the fact that the majority of people in the department don't have degrees and likely worked their way up from other positions.  It's like because most folks in charge of HR and the hiring process are still from past generations, they still unconsciously think a degree in "insert random field" automatically makes for a better employee.  

[brandymac27]

1 minute ago, Elessar78 said:

The painful realization that I'm still paying off my college loans while starting to save for my kids. And I don't even have it that bad with a low interest rate and a relatively small principle (unlike some kids these days).

Omg I know how you feel. Same boat as you except my kids are already in college.

[Elessar78]

2 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

I will say that I have noticed that sometimes companies still do show favoritism towards employees with degrees, even if the degree has zero to do with the job or job being applied for within the company.

 

For example where I work almost every single posting on the internal job board under preferred skills will *always* list "typically has a degree in.....* despite the fact that the majority of people in the department don't have degrees and likely worked their way up from other positions.  It's like because most folks in charge of HR and the hiring process are still from past generations, they still unconsciously think a degree in "insert random field" automatically makes for a better employee.  

I heard it's because it shows you can start and stick with something and see it through to the end. 

[brandymac27]

Just now, Elessar78 said:

I heard it's because it shows you can start and stick with something and see it through to the end. 

I get that argument. But seriously, there are MANY people who are very responsible who don't have college degrees. I think about my grandfathers. Neither of them went to college, but they both served in the military during WW2 and they got out and both held good paying jobs until they retired. My dad's father had 5 kids, and my mom's dad had 7 kids. They both supported their families, without my grandmothers working, and provided good lives for them, and even myself and my kids. Obviously times have changed.

[Elessar78]

7 minutes ago, brandymac27 said:

 . . . served in the military during WW2 and they got out. . .

quitters. And don't even come with that "the war ended" argument.

 

JK. Don't shoot this messenger with your M1 Garand #sniperelite —I am reading a bunch of management books and magazines, even an HR one currently. As well as seminars. I'm just reporting the prevailing(?) thinking out there.  There are (not a few) companies that also don't think a bachelor's is enough for entry level.

[PF Chang]

Just my experience/what I've observed of friends here:

 

1. Focus on the financial aspects. Student loans are destroying the financial futures of a ton of people before they're even old enough to rent a car. People do not understand compound interest and underestimate how much they spend on non-necessities. Basically I see too much reasoning like "oh this degree costs $200K and I'll make $50K gross, so I'll have this paid off in 4 years!" Not even close.

 

2. Colleges are businesses trying to sell you something. Treat them that way. I think people act like there's fiduciary responsibility here when there isn't - do independent research to verify how much you can expect to make with a given major. Basically, choose your major wisely. State U is happy to take your $100K in return for a communications degree that isn't worth $100K. 

 

I know too many people who have a ton of student debt but have ended up at jobs like Amazon anyway, where you don't need a degree. They don't make enough to afford $500/mo in student loans but would be fine if they didn't have that debt hanging over them. I think if you avoid that trap it will work out fine - as in, either be sure you're getting a marketable degree so you can afford the cost, or just don't go and be debt free. 

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

1 hour ago, brandymac27 said:

I appreciate the honesty. I guess I just feel like I'm supposed to guide my kids in a direction that will help them lead successful lives. The way, and speed,  that technology is advancing these days, scares the hell out of me. I mean, I'm not gonna push my kids to get a degree in IT when a lot of those jobs are being outsourced and in 10 years they could be on unemployment because of that. I'd rather encourage them to start their own business in whatever. Times are changing, and I just don't know if college is the absolute end all be all like it was when I was in HS.

 

While a ton of IT jobs are outsourced, IT is still a great field, especially in cyber security.  Renegade helped answer my questions about going into the IT field (I'm 43 yo) and provided a ton of helpful, useful info, here is a link to my questions/his response:

 

 

As for starting your own business, sounds great and all, but depending what type of business it is, gotta have that $$$ to get it up and running.  Start up costs, leasing/buying space, investors?, etc.  Not trying to be a Debie Downer, but I'd imagine that would be a lot harder to do (again, depends on the type of business) than most think.

 

As for the initial question.  I'm going to say yes, getting a degree still maters.  A lot of employers (as stated already) just want potential employees to have a 4 year degree regardless of the field of study, they will train you in their field.  I've also seen first hand where companies have removed that requirement, put it back in later and then during downsizing or eliminating a position have only retained those with a degree and let those without walk, regardless if those without a degree were a better/more productive employee than those with a degree.

 

My advice for any HS graduates that are cut out for college (some are, some aren't and that's perfectly fine) is to strongly consider going to a community college and pursuing an Associates degree related to what field they think they would like to get a Bachelor's degree in (e.g. they are interested in engineering so they go two years for an Associates in Science degree).  While they are there, figure out what they want and make the necessary changes if needed.  Then transfer to a four year university/college and get their Bachelors degree.  The classes with the associates degree will transfer to the four year institution and satisfy two years of required classes (e.g. english, history, math, etc.) and most importantly, it will save them (and the parents) a lot of money.  

 

Not to mention, it's an additional two years of maturity for them, which makes a huge difference.  Now I know your child has scholarships, so that isn't an option.  But I would research the best markets/fields to get into and sit down with him and go over them and compare it with what he likes and encourage him to pursue that degree.  

 

[brandymac27]

3 minutes ago, PF Chang said:

Just my experience/what I've observed of friends here:

 

1. Focus on the financial aspects. Student loans are destroying the financial futures of a ton of people before they're even old enough to rent a car. People do not understand compound interest and underestimate how much they spend on non-necessities. Basically I see too much reasoning like "oh this degree costs $200K and I'll make $50K gross, so I'll have this paid off in 4 years!" Not even close.

 

2. Colleges are businesses trying to sell you something. Treat them that way. I think people act like there's fiduciary responsibility here when there isn't - do independent research to verify how much you can expect to make with a given major. Basically, choose your major wisely. State U is happy to take your $100K in return for a communications degree that isn't worth $100K. 

 

I know too many people who have a ton of student debt but have ended up at jobs like Amazon anyway, where you don't need a degree. They don't make enough to afford $500/mo in student loans but would be fine if they didn't have that debt hanging over them. I think if you avoid that trap it will work out fine - as in, either be sure you're getting a marketable degree so you can afford the cost, or just don't go and be debt free. 

I couldn't agree more. Colleges are businesses like you said. I think as parents, we have to be able to do the research on schools our kids are interested in going to, but also in explaining the financial consequences of going to school if they aren't that serious about going to to begin with. 

 

Some kids just aren't cut out for college, or just honestly don't want to go. I don't think there's anything wrong with encouraging them to take a different path. IMO, that's better than pushing them to acquire massive debt for something they aren't happy doing.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 hour ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

This is an excellent point.  I am still fairly involved with my law school, so recent college graduates ask me all the time if they should go to law school.  If they have to ask that question, if they don't know they want to be a lawyer, I tell them **** no.  There are better, funner and cheaper ways to dick around for three years.  I tell them to go hike Europe.  The same applies to undergrad.  If you don't know why you are there, then you shouldn't be there. 

 

I'm torn on this though...

 

On one hand, I think far too many 18-year olds aren't ready to determine if they belong in college. I also think, in the DC area at least, it's become just an expectation and assumption that the next step after high school is to go graduate from college. I know back in the 90s when I went to JMU I wasted the first couple years there drinking and messing around. I got serious once I got into my major for the final two years and graduated with a very average GPA. But, even doing that opened doors for me. 

 

That brings me to the other hand...if I had simply "found myself" while working a minimum wage job for 2-3 years, what options would I have had at 20-21 when I decided to settle in and put more effort in? I suppose I could have started college later in life, which isn't a bad choice but also sets you back a little bit. 

 

I don't know - it seems like until the entire paradigm changes and professions become more self-aware of what's truly required, the SAFEST plan is to park yourself at a university and do your best. You can always stop if it's the wrong choice and you enrolled. It's tougher to start if it's the right choice and you didn't. 

 

Edit: I do wish that there was some break between high school and college. I mean, we can do whatever we want but I wish a break was more "traditional" as I think it's a great idea. What if there was some mandatory "volunteer" programs you had to choose from...build houses abroad, work in soup kitchens, whatever...and you had to log X number of months doing that before you could enroll in college. 

[PleaseBlitz]

46 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I'm torn on this though...

 

That brings me to the other hand...if I had simply "found myself" while working a minimum wage job for 2-3 years, what options would I have had at 20-21 when I decided to settle in and put more effort in? I suppose I could have started college later in life, which isn't a bad choice but also sets you back a little bit. 

 

 

 

I think my post was less than clear.  When I say "If you don't know why you are there, then you shouldn't be there" I don't mean you have to know going in what your major will be and what career you want to pursue.  I think less than 25% do.  If you go with an open mind just to "do college" because you think college is the logical next step or to experience a bunch of different majors/options/fields and, whatever you want to be, you are pretty sure it will require a degree, then that is a fine reason to go to college.  

 

If you are there to 1) defer 4 years of your life because you are just lost or 2) only going because of social/parental pressure and don't really want to be there or 3) do drugs and skip class, then you shouldn't be there.  

 

HALF of my freshman dorm failed out.  1 out of every 2.  They drank and did drugs and didn't go to class.  WHICH IS FINE, but you can do that without paying tuition.  

 

Quote

Edit: I do wish that there was some break between high school and college. I mean, we can do whatever we want but I wish a break was more "traditional" as I think it's a great idea. What if there was some mandatory "volunteer" programs you had to choose from...build houses abroad, work in soup kitchens, whatever...and you had to log X number of months doing that before you could enroll in college. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gap_year#United_States_of_America

 

Gap years are gaining steam in the US, obvious mostly among rich people's kids.  One of my biggest regrets in life was not taking a gap year and going on some crazy adventure overseas.  

[Corcaigh]

4 hours ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

Money, if it does not bring you happiness, will at least help you be miserable in comfort.

 

 

Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a yacht big enough to pull up right alongside it.
 

[Corcaigh]

4 hours ago, Jumbo said:

 

 

no. not even close. per the field, since i'm good at this stuff, i think you should take dance.

 

La cucaracha specifically?

 

[Rogue Jedi]

Seems like its usually a case-by-case scenario, but the short answer will always be yes.

 

At 18 after high school, I had no idea what I wanted to do. I was a drama kid for 4 years, and got delusions of becoming an actor in Hollywood, so I got accepted into VCU for acting/film. After a few semesters, things weren't going in the direction I wanted, and I started to doubt my choice in realization that I'm never going to make any money to survive. 
 

I dropped out of VCU and started working odd retail jobs, while taking part-time classes at NOVA figuring out slowly what field I should concentrate in, before settling on Information Technology. I finished NOVA with and Associate's in IT, and transferred to George Mason to finish up the my bachelor's. 

 

I assumed with at least an Associate's in IT that I would find a decent paying job, but alas I was being overlooked constantly because I did not have a Bachelor's degree. I found it infuriating that I lot of peers I knew got IT jobs with 4-year degree's in things completely unrelated, like English or Political Science. 

 

This is when I realized they way the job market is going, and any sort of white-collar job basically requires at least a bachelor's in something, regardless of area of study. I guess to them it proves that you at least know something.

 

I'm finishing up my final semester at Mason this fall, and hopefully with a Bachelor's in IT, I'll finally have job where I can afford a living, since the Associate's didn't cut it. 

 

 

[bearrock]

@Rogue Jedi little unsolicited life advice. When the job interviewer or your boss starts raving about JLaw's latest movie or just her in general, just smile and nod politely.  You're welcome?

[Dan T.]

A way to save money is community college.  In Virginia at least, if a kid maintains a B average in community college for, I think, 2 years, they can slide right into a State-level four-year college, thus saving thousands of dollars in getting a 4 year degree.

[Renegade7]

8 minutes ago, Dan T. said:

A way to save money is community college.  In Virginia at least, if a kid maintains a B average in community college for, I think, 2 years, they can slide right into a State-level four-year college, thus saving thousands of dollars in getting a 4 year degree.

Brought this earlier and can't emphasize this enough.  You get out of what you put into it no matter where you go.  I did not start college until almost 20 because I didn't know what to do and knew I'd have to support myself.  I believe this conversation is different for folks that have a solid support system at that age versus ones that dont.

 

  Reading this thread reminds me of how we've failed in trying to keep the value of graduating high school mean anything. If it was up to me, grade school would stop at 11th grade and the "12th grade" would be either a trade program or gap year.  How many of yall know folks who did halfdays their senior year?  Complete waste of time.

[No Excuses]

The short answer is yes. Data overwhelmingly says that you will be a big time loser in the modern economy without a college degree. 

 

Anyone offering you advice that college is not necessary wants you to be a sob story in a future NYT article about people left behind in society. 

[Renegade7]

58 minutes ago, Rogue Jedi said:

 

 

I'm finishing up my final semester at Mason this fall, and hopefully with a Bachelor's in IT, I'll finally have job where I can afford a living, since the Associate's didn't cut it. 

 

 

 

What experience did you have in IT when you finished the associates?  I went out of my way to get experience that wouldn't get laughed at on my resume, even started an IT Club so people could bring in their computers for free troubleshooting.

 

Did you have a cert?  I was almost done with A+ by time I finished associates, which helped a lot with my first IT job because it was a hands on test.  I've seen programmers stuggle to realize a RAM stick wasn't fully seated properly. 

 

I blame your college and other colleges for not finding ways to get students some form of experience or direction in finding experience before they graduate.  Experience matters a lot, college helps get you where you want to be. But if your field has certifications, you have to peruse them to help make up for a lack of experience, especially in IT.

[DCSaints_fan]

If they get into Ivy League - yes go, major doesn't matter.

 

If they want to engineering/science/math - yes, go, even a second tier state university, even if they aren't the best student (but they at least must be decent/serious) 

 

Business / econ - as long as they are a decent student, and don't dick around, yes go. 

 

Education - if they really want to teach K-8.  If they want to teach 9-12,  its better to pick a different major and then pick up the certification later.

 

Liberal arts - this is where it becomes tricky.  If they are really passionate about the subject, then maybe.   But only a bachelor's in alot of liberal arts, does not open up a whole lot of doors, besides teaching.  If they want to do the full PhD track/career in academia, are a good student, and are OK that they will be poor and constantly fighting for jobs their entire life, until they are maybe lucky and get tenure at like 45, or if they want to teach K-12, then sure. 

[Rogue Jedi]

16 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

What experience did you have in IT when you finished the associates?  I went out of my way to get experience that wouldn't get laughed at on my resume, even started an IT Club so people could bring in their computers for free troubleshooting.

 

Did you have a cert?  I was almost done with A+ by time I finished associates, which helped a lot with my first IT job because it was a hands on test.  I've seen programmers stuggle to realize a RAM stick wasn't fully seated properly. 

 

I blame your college and other colleges for not finding ways to get students some form of experience or direction in finding experience before they graduate.  Experience matters a lot, college helps get you where you want to be. But if your field has certifications, you have to peruse them to help make up for a lack of experience, especially in IT.

 

I didn’t have any IT experience or cert when I got my Associates.

 

Pretty much all my work experience is in retail but I did manage to get an internship down the road.

 

Since I only have 2 classes left this semester to graduate I’m working on my Security+ cert right now and plan going straight to AWS architect - associate cert after 

[Renegade7]

7 hours ago, Rogue Jedi said:

 

I didn’t have any IT experience or cert when I got my Associates.

 

Pretty much all my work experience is in retail but I did manage to get an internship down the road.

 

That's why that happened and someone involved in your education should have told you that, not your fault but now you know so you can tell others.

 

Quote

Since I only have 2 classes left this semester to graduate I’m working on my Security+ cert right now and plan going straight to AWS architect - associate cert after 

 

Very wise, especially considering the area. Like I told Taze, DoD will auto-scrap your resume without Sec+, and even better I think Amazon HQ2 is gonna end up in NOVA along with AWS being really popular, not to mention FIPS compliant.

 

Not busting your chops by the way, you weren't warned, I already knew. My internship wasn't enough to separate from people having same piece of paper as me in a recession. I watched an entire capstone group not be able to explain the difference between DNS and DHCP, had to separate from them somehow.

[skinfan2k]

Answer is absolutely not.  I think there are too many people with degrees.  Trade Jobs are needed and in high demand now. 

[tshile]

1 hour ago, Rogue Jedi said:

I'm finishing up my final semester at Mason this fall, and hopefully with a Bachelor's in IT, I'll finally have job where I can afford a living, since the Associate's didn't cut it. 

 

Pick the best place for you to start, not the one that pays the most now. It’ll pay off shortly (1-3 years) 

 

Labor shortage is working in your favor