MMQB: How Su'a Cravens fell apart..

[NickyJ]

20 minutes ago, Playaction2Sanders said:

So when I look at Cravens situation today. I don't judge him for what happened, it just is what it is..

The difference is that you made your decisions and saw them through. I didn't see anything in your post about blaming your teammates or coaches for how you handled the adversity and made your decisions. That, in my eyes, sets you apart from Cravens. That you moved on to even better things working in rescue is great, and I wouldn't expect Cravens to have to live up to that.

 

What puts me off is that when Cravens needed to stop and think, he expected the entire team would grind to a halt just for him. It didn't happen, and so he spent a season pouting about it. If he moves on, good for him. It still won't change that he quit on his team. It's up to him whether he's going to define his career as a quitter or not.

[Playaction2Sanders]

53 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

 That, in my eyes, sets you apart from Cravens. That you moved on to even better things working in rescue is great, and I wouldn't expect Cravens to have to live up to that.

 

Well would have thought a 16 year old version of myself fresh from quitting the football team would be doing something like a mountain rescue at 21? Who knows what time will tell when it comes to Cravens story down the road. Look at the Ricky Williams football life story. The one thing he mentioned in his story was he grew more as a man after he quit football  than he ever did when he was playing.. And he still returned to the game and played well after all that..

[DiscoBob]

This was the most frustrating part of the article to me:

 

Quote

“[Washington is] more combative in nature than most teams,” the veteran agent says. “They are in the bottom couple teams as far at that goes.”

 

That quote rings true to me having followed the team for decades.  Not the type of culture you want your team to develop.

[TMK9973]

RG3 Came back too early. We pretty much all agree on that no?  We also agree that he probably shouldn't have played the 2nd half of the playoff game. That him wanting to "push" thru it just hurt him more.

 

I know that we have a stigma in the country about mental illness. We talk like we understand its real - but then tell people that suffer that they just need to "Relex" or "Move on". When those that suffer takes meds we say "Meds are oversubscribed" and think things like "Man - That person is week. Having to take prozac" and then we laugh and drink and when we wake up with a headache - we grab the Advil and never think twice.

 

For those that have suffered thru a mental illness or have a loved one that does -they know. This is real. Su'a wants to point to the concision - and maybe thats true -or maybe its always been a issue.  Its not uncommon for someone who suffers thru mental illness to want to point to a incident or event and put blame on it (Look up PANDA. Which has no scientific backing or medical proof exists- but it often cited by people as the reason their child has mental illness).  This stigma leads to people also scare to get the treatment they needed (The Article mentions that he saw a physiologist who wanted to give him meds. Su'a didnt want to do that. Im sure he thought it made him look week.)

 

The anxiety, paranoia, be sure of events that everyone said didn't happen.  

The young man is suffering.  I dont think its the Redskins fault. The Redskins are a business -Their job is not to take care of every person that works for them. It would be a great story if they did -but i dont blame them for not. They are not a health care factory. They are business whose job it is to play football and win.  

 

But at the same time - Su'a owes them NOTHING.  The man is injured. Its just a mental illness and not physical.  I hope he gets the treatment he needs and get better. With or without football.  

[daveakl]

1 hour ago, DiscoBob said:

This was the most frustrating part of the article to me:

“[Washington is] more combative in nature than most teams,” the veteran agent says. “They are in the bottom couple teams as far at that goes.”

That quote rings true to me having followed the team for decades.  Not the type of culture you want your team to develop.

 

Teams tend to somewhat take on the personality of the town.  We can get into the psychology of the why that is if we want.

 

DC in general is a town that is combative.  

[CutPryorNow]

1 hour ago, TMK9973 said:

RG3 Came back too early. We pretty much all agree on that no?  We also agree that he probably shouldn't have played the 2nd half of the playoff game. That him wanting to "push" thru it just hurt him more.

 

I know that we have a stigma in the country about mental illness. We talk like we understand its real - but then tell people that suffer that they just need to "Relex" or "Move on". When those that suffer takes meds we say "Meds are oversubscribed" and think things like "Man - That person is week. Having to take prozac" and then we laugh and drink and when we wake up with a headache - we grab the Advil and never think twice.

 

For those that have suffered thru a mental illness or have a loved one that does -they know. This is real. Su'a wants to point to the concision - and maybe thats true -or maybe its always been a issue.  Its not uncommon for someone who suffers thru mental illness to want to point to a incident or event and put blame on it (Look up PANDA. Which has no scientific backing or medical proof exists- but it often cited by people as the reason their child has mental illness).  This stigma leads to people also scare to get the treatment they needed (The Article mentions that he saw a physiologist who wanted to give him meds. Su'a didnt want to do that. Im sure he thought it made him look week.)

 

The anxiety, paranoia, be sure of events that everyone said didn't happen.  

The young man is suffering.  I dont think its the Redskins fault. The Redskins are a business -Their job is not to take care of every person that works for them. It would be a great story if they did -but i dont blame them for not. They are not a health care factory. They are business whose job it is to play football and win.  

 

But at the same time - Su'a owes them NOTHING.  The man is injured. Its just a mental illness and not physical.  I hope he gets the treatment he needs and get better. With or without football.  

I understand the context of what you are trying to get across but I completely disagree. Out of every interview and story and the experiences that S. Cravens had as a Washington Redskins professional football player have lead me to believe that he is a **** and a quitter and a narcissistic jerk. So sure like every other human being I hope they figure it out but he is wrong and I would not trust him with my life or any other part of it including speaking the truth and having some self-awareness

[megared]

11 minutes ago, daveakl said:

 

Teams tend to somewhat take on the personality of the town.  We can get into the psychology of the why that is if we want.

 

DC in general is a town that is combative.  

 

I don't think that absolves this FO with how the situation was dealt with.  Don't get me wrong, from piecing together the story before this article was released, my feeling was always that they bear some culpability in how everything played out. 

 

I'm of the opinion, it was a ****ty thing to do:

 

Talk a player out of retirement

'Grant' said player time off, to get mentally and physically right under the guise of support

Place a designation on him that ends his season, and avoids paying him, the day before his agent told you he was going to report. 

Release a team statement that questions whether he wants to play football (once again feeding into the speculation that he 'quit').    

Request prorated portion of signing bonus be returned.

 

What was the purpose of having him reconsider retirement in the first place?  To exact revenge?    

 

The guy got a concussion playing football.  He got diagnosed with Post Concussion Syndrome by an independent neurologist.  I don't see any way in which the Redskins can win arbitration, based upon those facts alone.  

 

Cravens and his agent were at fault too, from an understanding perspective.  They should have known that what happened, was a possible outcome, especially once they knew that Cravens was in no position to contribute for the foreseeable future.  If they didn't know, there are resources like the Players' Association that could have informed them.  

[CutPryorNow]

1 minute ago, megared said:

 

I don't think that absolves this FO with how the situation was dealt with.  Don't get me wrong, from piecing together the story before this article was released, my feeling was always that they bear some culpability in how everything played out. 

 

I'm of the opinion, it was a ****ty thing to do:

 

Talk a player out of retirement

'Grant' said player time off, to get mentally and physically right under the guise of support

Place a designation on him that ends his season, and avoids paying him, the day before his agent told you he was going to report. 

Release a team statement that questions whether he wants to play football (once again feeding into the speculation that he 'quit').    

Request prorated portion of signing bonus be returned.

 

What was the purpose of having him reconsider retirement in the first place?  To exact revenge?    

 

The guy got a concussion playing football.  He got diagnosed with Post Concussion Syndrome by an independent neurologist.  I don't see any way in which the Redskins can win arbitration, based upon those facts alone.  

 

Cravens and his agent were at fault too, from an understanding perspective.  They should have known that what happened, was a possible outcome, especially once they knew that Cravens was in no position to contribute for the foreseeable future.  If they didn't know, there are resources like the Players' Association that could have informed them.  

I'm sure I will offend but your response to this thread sounds pretty close to Cravens excuses and lack of ability to actually take responsibility for actions committed

[daveakl]

4 minutes ago, megared said:

 

I don't think that absolves this FO with how the situation was dealt with.  Don't get me wrong, from piecing together the story before this article was released, my feeling was always that they bear some culpability in how everything played out. 

Never said it did or didn't.  Was simply replying to why our team may have the culture it does.

Surround yourself with politicians and see what happens.

[megared]

4 minutes ago, CutPryorNow said:

I'm sure I will offend but your response to this thread sounds pretty close to Cravens excuses and lack of ability to actually take responsibility for actions committed

 

I just think, knowing what we've learned about concussions and their effects on the brain, it isn't quite fair to hold a young adult, who was simultaneously dealing with family issues, to your standard of lucidity.  

 

The problem is, this was a gigantic grey area, where the team could have done the right thing, still traded him for a fresh start, without the innuendos and pettiness.  

[CutPryorNow]

2 hours ago, megared said:

 

I just think, knowing what we've learned about concussions and their effects on the brain, it isn't quite fair to hold a young adult, who was simultaneously dealing with family issues, to your standard of lucidity.  

 

The problem is, this was a gigantic grey area, where the team could have done the right thing, still traded him for a fresh start, without the innuendos and pettiness.  

You speak truth. The problem is that it's a hypothetical truth. This is the NFL. So you better have your s*** together

2 hours ago, megared said:

 

I just think, knowing what we've learned about concussions and their effects on the brain, it isn't quite fair to hold a young adult, who was simultaneously dealing with family issues, to your standard of lucidity.  

 

The problem is, this was a gigantic grey area, where the team could have done the right thing, still traded him for a fresh start, without the innuendos and pettiness.  

Craven's acted like he was special and could make excuses without consequences and never accepted responsibility for his actions. Sure he is a special human being but the problem is every single one of those players on the Redskins team have fallen on hard times before. The difference is Cravens chose to quit

[Bonez3]

Can somebody actually highlight what we received in the trade and the players. I know we traded a pick to SF. We picked up a 7th and maybe a conditional 6?? Did we use one of the picks on Adonis?

 

Just curious.

 

Unfortunately, without knowing all the details, everything seems to suggest he was using a medical diagnoses as a scapegoat. Sure, he may have had post-concussion syndrome but his agent didn't. His whole team dropped the ball and I would have cut ties with him to based on what I read. There are some who stand by the FO did everything to help him. So, 2 sides to both stories (and frankly, as hard as thesis to believe, the Redskins actually have more credibility). I kinda hope he does ok in life, I think he'll never be a football player again. 

[megared]

1 hour ago, Bonez3 said:

There are some who stand by the FO did everything to help him. So, 2 sides to both stories (and frankly, as hard as thesis to believe, the Redskins actually have more credibility).  

 

Seeing as though this isn't the FO's first time running the discredit/discard playbook on people they fall out with, I'm not sure how they deserve the benefit of the doubt.  Nothing meaningful was gained from this exercise.  They torpedoed the guy's value and reputation, then traded him. 

 

I hear these stories nowadays, and think, part of what made this team great once upon a time was the organization;  and the coach genuinely caring about the players, and being good people.  They operated with integrity, and we once were respected. 

 

Do you ever wonder if these guys redirected that energy from their vendettas towards productive things that improved the organization, that we could be a perennial playoff team?  

[Bonez3]

14 minutes ago, megared said:

 

Seeing as though this isn't the FO's first time running the discredit/discard playbook on people they fall out with, I'm not sure how they deserve the benefit of the doubt.  Nothing meaningful was gained from this exercise.  They torpedoed the guy's value and reputation, then traded him. 

 

I hear these stories nowadays, and think, part of what made this team great once upon a time was the organization;  and the coach genuinely caring about the players, and being good people.  They operated with integrity, and we once were respected. 

 

Do you ever wonder if these guys redirected that energy from their vendettas towards productive things that improved the organization, that we could be a perennial playoff team?  

I hear you about the organization having a different vibe in the past and it being linked to success. But honestly, as far as the coach goes, he is widely revered as a players coach. Find me a negative story.

 

As far as Allen and Snyder, thats a different beast altogether and hope they see the light someday.

 

But Su'a has zero credibility based on just about every tweet, comment, backstory and actions. So, that's why the organization actually is more credible, slightly, but still more credible. Not saying much

[dyst]

I tend not to believe much that comes from this team.

[megared]

12 minutes ago, Bonez3 said:

I hear you about the organization having a different vibe in the past and it being linked to success. But honestly, as far as the coach goes, he is widely revered as a players coach. Find me a negative story.

 

As far as Allen and Snyder, thats a different beast altogether and hope they see the light someday.

 

But Su'a has zero credibility based on just about every tweet, comment, backstory and actions. So, that's why the organization actually is more credible, slightly, but still more credible. Not saying much

 

But it was ownership through coaches that all operated in that manner.  I can't assess Gruden the way you would Gibbs because the overall franchise influence doesn't compare.  I think the FO from that time dealt with problematic players at different points, with the goal of finding common ground to achieve the overall goal of winning.  

 

Our current FO seems to villianize someone new every year, to deflect attention and scrutiny from themselves and the job they're doing.    I didn't agree with cutting losses with Cravens, but whatever it's their decision...but devoting the effort they have, time and time again to leak stories and damage people...it's just sinister. 

 

At what point do you expect us to not look at you and wonder why we find ourselves in the same situation time and time again?  Even if you can find a way to defend the FO's actions...at what point do we move beyond this unnecessary foolishness?

[clskinsfan]

On 8/16/2018 at 4:18 PM, kingarthur65 said:

 

I can assure you that part isn't true.

 

EXACTLY! And it is why I blasted the pick so badly when it happened. The guy quit on his college team as well. Scott gets bailed out on this site all of the time by some fans. But his drafts were very close to disasters. injury prone head cases seem to be the norm. He did hit with Smith and Crowder. But other than that his drafts are not very good.

[HTTRDynasty]

5 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

He did hit with Smith and Crowder. But other than that his drafts are not very good.

 

So I guess Scherff, Matt I., and Fuller weren’t hits?  And Doctson has a ton of potential to be a hit as well, and is a starter. 

 

Drafting just two starters is considered a solid draft. We drafted 6 in two years. 

[XxSpearheadxX]

On one hand I have suffered 4 concussions (both sports and fights) , brain damage, suffer from anxiety and depression (now is managed) battled drug addiction, had a family that didn't understand and thought I was weak that I couldn't just pull myself up. 

 

On the other hand in my gut I feel that Sua was a whiny, athletically gifted spoiled kid who wasn't fitting in. 

 

Maybe he has mental illness, maybe he is dealing with sexuality issues, maybe (and I really think this isn't the case) he even did have lingering effects from the concussion. 

 

I don't think so though, and if his brain is that sensitive then he shouldn't play football. 

[clskinsfan]

36 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

So I guess Scherff, Matt I., and Fuller weren’t hits?  And Doctson has a ton of potential to be a hit as well, and is a starter. 

 

Drafting just two starters is considered a solid draft. We drafted 6 in two years. 

 

Scherff was the 5th overall pick and a guard. You better hit that one or it is an epic failure. Fuller was another nice find but not currently a Redskin. Doctson has done absolutely nothing here. Io is another oft injured player. 

He hit on exactly Three quality starters out of 17 picks and 3rd rounder Matt Jones and 2nd rounder Cravens are utter disaster picks. As 1st rounder Doctson has been to this point.

[dyst]

There were three drafts that SMC had a possible hand in during his tenure here.

 

His first year, he had just arrived, so I’m not sure how much say or input he had. Last year, he was gone, but I’m sure some of his input and draft board was used. The main draft that he was involved with for a full year is the 2016 selections.

 

Josh Doctson

Sua Cravens

Kendall Fuller

Matt Ioannidis

Nate Sudfeld

Steven Daniels

Keith Marshall

 

At least that is how I break it down, since 2016 was the only year he had a full offseason to get a pulse for the team.

[HTTRDynasty]

6 hours ago, clskinsfan said:

 

Scherff was the 5th overall pick and a guard. You better hit that one or it is an epic failure. Fuller was another nice find but not currently a Redskin. Doctson has done absolutely nothing here. Io is another oft injured player. 

He hit on exactly Three quality starters out of 17 picks and 3rd rounder Matt Jones and 2nd rounder Cravens are utter disaster picks. As 1st rounder Doctson has been to this point.

 

Lol. So you basically put a whole bunch a qualifiers on what constitutes a “hit”.  Whatever makes you happy man. 

[Jericho]

10 hours ago, Bonez3 said:

Can somebody actually highlight what we received in the trade and the players. I know we traded a pick to SF. We picked up a 7th and maybe a conditional 6?? Did we use one of the picks on Adonis?

 

Just curious.

 

Unfortunately, without knowing all the details, everything seems to suggest he was using a medical diagnoses as a scapegoat. Sure, he may have had post-concussion syndrome but his agent didn't. His whole team dropped the ball and I would have cut ties with him to based on what I read. There are some who stand by the FO did everything to help him. So, 2 sides to both stories (and frankly, as hard as thesis to believe, the Redskins actually have more credibility). I kinda hope he does ok in life, I think he'll never be a football player again. 

 

 

Denver traded a fourth- and two fifth-round selections (109th, 142nd, and 163rd) to Washington in exchange for Washington's fourth- and fifth-round selections (113th and 149th) and safety Su'a Cravens. There is also a possibility the team can pick up a 2020 6th round pick

 

Pick 109 was Troy Apke (though remember the team essentially traded up from 113 so it really didn't gain much here, if anything)

Pick 142 was traded to San Francisco. Washington traded second- and fifth-round selections (44th and 142nd) to San Francisco in exchange for San Francisco's second- and third-round selection (59th and 74th). This is where the Skins traded down (and selected Guice) to get back the 3rd they lost in the Alex Smith deal. Pick 74 was Geron Christian (though remember, the team already had pick 149 before the Cravens deal, so this again really netted them little, if anything)

Pick 163 was Tim Settle

 

It's not this simple, but you could essentially say the team trade Cravens for Tim Settle and not be that far off. And again, there is a possibility of a 2020 6th round pick.

[Malapropismic Depository]

I wonder how much of Su'a we see in next Friday's game.

[bedlamVR]

Some football players just don't love football - They love the adulation the money the lifestyle but the day to day grind and the things they have to put their bodies through and the spotlight of media scrutiny - they don't like. Su'a needs to be honest with himself and get his priorities in order - If all of these symptoms came about post-concussion i think he would have a point - But i think the only reason for him to come back to the team was to sit on IR and pick up something of a pay cheque-  I  am not expecting his career to be anything but a series of excuses. Until recently he was sitting out practice with 'knee soreness' 

 

The thing is the issues raised in this article are serious and mental injuries are just as important as physical ones and they should be discussed. Its an important discussion - just a lousy poster boy ----- and call me cynical but you have to wonder how much this story was prompted by Brian Dawkins and Steve Smith comming out recently and being frank about their mental health issues