Greatest Athlete in D.C. History (team sports)

[DCSaints_fan]

3 minutes ago, Sticksboi05 said:

 

Scherzer would be close to Ovechkin if he had started his career here. He's literally over-performing a $200M contract past age 30. Incredible.

 

Even if he did, a pitcher only plays in 1/5 of his teams games.  Not sure how you can compare to a player who plays in every one if his teams game

[Spaceman Spiff]

2 minutes ago, DCSaints_fan said:

 

Only counting his tenure in D.C., no.   Otherwise, it would obviously be Jordan. 

Scherzer would have to win 4 more CYAs to match Ovechkin's Richard total (7), and its possible Ovechkin isn't done winning those :-)   And he's never won an MVP, though admittedly pretty much impossible for a pitcher to do so. 

 

I don't know if you can equate a Cy Young Award to a goal scoring leader award.   

1 hour ago, DCSaints_fan said:

 

Even if he did, a pitcher only plays in 1/5 of his teams games.  Not sure how you can compare to a player who plays in every one if his teams game

 

Yeah, I agree.  Not enough as playing only 20 minutes a game.  

[Mournblade]

1 hour ago, Sticksboi05 said:

 

Scherzer would be close to Ovechkin if he had started his career here. He's literally over-performing a $200M contract past age 30. Incredible.

 

Last thing re: hockey - in 1971 the NHL was 2.5% American; this past season the NHL was 27% American. And that sure as hell isn't because Canadians are less interested in playing.

 

Despite the NHL's failure to market its game to a broad audience, and its inability to accept that it needs to increase scoring ASAP, the game is without a doubt growing in America.

 

You're thinking about soccer here. Nothing wrong with scoring in hockey atm. 

Edited June 19, 2018 by Mournblade

[Gibbit]

29 minutes ago, Mournblade said:

 

You're thinking about soccer here. Nothing wrong with scoring in hockey atm. 

It needs to increase Caps scoring

 

Holtby should never be scored on however

[thebluefood]

2 hours ago, Gibbit said:

It needs to increase Caps scoring

 

Holtby should never be scored on however

Best post of the thread by far. 

[Gibbit]

20 minutes ago, thebluefood said:

Best post of the thread by far. 

I mean if theyre making these kinds of adjustments...got to make our opinions heard

 

but hockey is good as is imo (we do need a "go caps" smiley guy though...maybe one kissing the cup)

Edited June 20, 2018 by Gibbit

[PokerPacker]

3 hours ago, Gibbit said:

I mean if theyre making these kinds of adjustments...got to make our opinions heard

 

but hockey is good as is imo (we do need a "go caps" smiley guy though...maybe one kissing the cup)

[Tarpon75]

On 18/06/2018 at 1:50 PM, Sticksboi05 said:

 

Wayne Gretzky had a 130 point season in 1993-94 post-Russian embargo and was a productive player throughout the 90s so the comparison is not that great on his part. And even so, the NHL in the 80s had more talent than the NFL in the 1930s.

Sammy played from 1937-1952. He still holds NFL records and helped revolutionize the game as a passer.He was a 3 way standout. His 51 yard punting average for a single season still stands today. In 1943 Sammy led the league with 13 interceptions as a db.Baugh was an 8 time All Pro.

Edited June 20, 2018 by Tarpon75

[pjfootballer]

It’s so hard to compare modern players to players from other eras. The games have all changed, even from when I first started watching. 

 

As as far as hockey goes, anyone who ****’s (poops) on the game and compares it to volleyball or croquet, is just ignorant because they don’t want to admit they’re too ignorant to learn the game.

 

Hockey is a top four professional sport with the NFL, NBA and MLB.  It’s like some complaining about soccer. I’m not a huge soccer fan, but I understand why the fans are passionate about it, because I took the time to learn the game and I don’t mind watching it some.

[ddub52]

Michael Jordan or Deion Sanders. 

[Renegade7]

On 6/18/2018 at 11:59 AM, Warhead36 said:

It's been Ovechkin for almost a decade now. I personally don't believe he needed to win a Cup but now that he's got one, there is zero doubt whatsoever.

 

Please don't say Sammy Baugh. Guy played when professional football wasn't really even a thing, there was like six teams back then.

Nah, he dominated the league he was in, how many players today can lead the league in TDs thrown and passes intercepted yourself playing cornerback PLUS lead league in yards per punt average?  There were 10 teams the year he won his first championship, same number of teams in 1940 I was talking about.  If it was so easy, everyone would be doing it, right?

29 minutes ago, ddub52 said:

Michael Jordan or Deion Sanders. 

 

They didn't win championships in the DC though, why them?

Edited June 21, 2018 by Renegade7

[Springfield]

42 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Nah, he dominated the league he was in, how many players today can lead the league in TDs thrown and passes intercepted yourself playing cornerback PLUS lead league in yards per punt average?  There were 10 teams the year he won his first championship, same number of teams in 1940 I was talking about.  If it was so easy, everyone would be doing it, right?

 

They didn't win championships in the DC though, why them?

 

In 1940, smoking cigarettes was considered healthy.

[skinsmarydu]

On 6/18/2018 at 12:58 PM, Sticksboi05 said:

 

I don't think it matters much whose decision it was. I see it like this:

 

If we compare Johnson and say Greg Maddux (this is just a random name) on an even scale 5 and 5, I won't knock Johnson down off the bat to a 4 because he played pre-integration BUT I will absolutely give 1 point to Maddux and bump him up to a 6. So I'd have it off the bat as 6 to 5 but not 6 to 4 if that makes sense.

Maddux was a God here in ATL. I went to a game that lasted about an hour and a half...I thought "I JUST SAT DOWN!" 

Ovi won't get Wayne's glory, nor will he ever skate as well as Peter Forsberg...but if I can keep him up there with Riggo and Darrell (and Sean), I'm ok with that. 

[PleaseBlitz]

On 6/18/2018 at 11:30 AM, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Agreed to a certain extent, but segregated baseball wasn't his decision.  Still was the premier pitcher of his day.  

 

I said irrelevant more as a jab to anyone who thinks DC sports starts after 1970 or so.  Johnson should certainly have a case.  

 

The answer is probably Ovechkin though.  

 

 

 

Agree with this.  It's Ovi for me, and the only other person in the discussion is Walter Johnson.  

 

Walter Johnson led the Senators to two World Series (at nearly 40) with records of 23-7 and 20-7.  

 

In his prime, in the '10's, from 1910 through 1919, the Washington Senators were 130 games UNDER .500 in any game in which Johnson did NOT get a decision. In the games with Johnson, they were 124 games OVER .500.  Think about that for a minute.  

 

Johnson is STILL the winningest pitcher in baseball since 1900 with 417 wins.

 

For context, and there is some need adjustment for era, but Max Scherzer's WAR over the last 3 seasons (during which he has won 2 Cy Youngs) is 6.6.  Johnson's average war for an entire decade was 10.9 per year.  Also, last year, Scherzer had 268 strikeouts in 31 games pitched, in an era where batters do not give a single **** about striking out.  Johnson had a year where he had 313 Ks in an era where striking out brought shame upon your family (albeit in 42 games).  

 

 

[thebluefood]

And it's my impression we're still talking about 

-Their performance in D.C. specifically 

-Their influence on their respective teams and sports in their own era and beyond

-Their impact on the area's sports landscape

 

It is undeniable that Baugh and Johnson have high marks across the board. 

 

Apart from playing in pre-integration eras, I don't know why there are some so enthusiastic to rule out the likes of Baugh and Johnson. They couldn't help being born when they were and playing their respective sports when they did. They were not only great but they helped shape their respective games and made them what they are today. There may not be a West Coast Offense or even an NFL without Buagh and Flaherty. 

 

My only big complaint against them is that they could have used their status to promote expanding opportunities beyond white players (in U.S. and in Latin America), especially Walter Johnson. He had already been a vocal critic of the Reserve Clause generations before it was done away - why not use that same platform to fight for integration? Yes, we're all products of our time but we're often presented with opportunities to move beyond our time and place. Hell, Johnson played against Negro Leaguers and played in Washington, D.C. to adoring black fans (my grandfather, according to my dad, was a big Walter Johnson fan growing up). He knew what was up (which is possibly why he wasn't a greater advocate for integration - didn't need any more competition for his job, especially toward the end of his career).

 

All that to say: there's good reasons for critiquing players from pre-integration eras but are we absolutely sure writing off their careers completely is one of them? Sports got to where it is today somehow - it didn't just become this overnight. This has been in development long, long before any of us where alive. 

[Mournblade]

Walter Johnson, please. There were 16 teams in MLB in those days. SIXTEEN. In other words there was no competition. That's like

singing the praises of some hockey star during the NHL's original six era when their were only six teams!

 

Competition in todays era, with the huge number of teams, massive salaries at stake, huge TV markets, is vastly more ferocious. And hence 

the greater value of an accomplishment like winning the Stanley Cup in 2018. Notch another one up for the great AO. 

[pjfootballer]

Actually, you can look at the leagues now as more watered down. Less teams, most of the good players are on those teams the old timers were competing against.

[thebluefood]

1 hour ago, Mournblade said:

Walter Johnson, please. There were 16 teams in MLB in those days. SIXTEEN. In other words there was no competition. That's like

singing the praises of some hockey star during the NHL's original six era when their were only six teams!

 

Competition in todays era, with the huge number of teams, massive salaries at stake, huge TV markets, is vastly more ferocious. And hence 

the greater value of an accomplishment like winning the Stanley Cup in 2018. Notch another one up for the great AO. 

Oh, well then, we're gonna need to find new names for some awards:

-The Cy Young Award 

-The Conn Smythe Trophy 

-The Georges Vezina Trophy

-The Jack Adams Trophy

 

They're named after pre-expansion players and coaches so how great could they be? Hell, Cy Young played half of his career before the American League even existed and Vezina had to stand up throughout the entire game until he was 7 years into his career with Montreal. And never mind the reserve clause, the wretched conditions under which professional players in all sports played, little to no actual strength and conditioning facilities or techniques, a torrent of unchecked ethnic slurs from the grandstands, or running the very real risk of literally dying while competing (or a life threatening injury with no real hope of getting better because, once again, strength and conditioning wasn't a thing).

 

Yes, there are challenges today that yesterday's players didn't have to worry about but there were challenges then that would be unthinkable today, even for folks in the minor leagues of their respective sports. A lot of those players, especially Walter Johnson, saw to it that players didn't have to deal with the things they dealt with. That's why player's unions exist. That's why strength and condition methods have evolved the way they have. That's why they have those massive salaries and there's more teams. As great as the likes of Max Scherzer are, I don't know if they could take on the demand of a Walter Johnson. Scherzer's had 9 complete games total throughout his career thus far (about 10 and a half seasons). By the end of his 10th season, Johnson had more than 300. You don't think that takes a toll on your body, regardless who you're facing?

 

Sports, especially at the top level, have been and always will be difficult - just for different reasons. That's why it's hard to compare eras but why you don't completely toss aside the careers of people who played before you were born. 

[Warhead36]

54 minutes ago, pjfootballer said:

Actually, you can look at the leagues now as more watered down. Less teams, most of the good players are on those teams the old timers were competing against.

I don't look at it that way, I look at it as overall talent and ability were less back then. Athletes nowadays are bigger, stronger, faster etc. If you were gifted it was easier to dominate back then compared to now.

 

Walter Johnson is #2 though, but nobody beats Alexander the Great.

[thebluefood]

Bumping this with a WaPo Sports Bog article:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2018/06/20/after-winning-a-stanley-cup-does-barry-trotz-crack-the-mount-rushmore-of-d-c-pro-coaches/?utm_term=.ee9efdfd18e2

 

Quote

Barry Trotz resigned as head coach of the Capitals on Monday, less than two weeks after guiding the franchise to its first Stanley Cup title. Trotz leaves Washington a champion, something no other coach in the Capitals’ 44-year history, and only a handful of coaches of D.C.’s other pro sports teams through the years, can claim.

Trotz finished with 205 wins in his Capitals career, second only to Bryan Murray’s 343, and his 36 playoff wins are a franchise record. After capping four years at the helm with a championship, Trotz assumes the title of greatest coach in Capitals history, but does he crack the Mount Rushmore of D.C. pro coaches? Here’s a shortlist of his competition:

 

As far as coaches is concerned: my Mt. Rushmore is still Gibbs, Flaherty, Harris, Motta 

-Gibbs for obvious reasons - it is a shame he doesn't get the kudos he deserves by football fans outside of the D.C. Metro Area

-Flaherty because he still has the highest winning percentage of any 'Skins coach (and probably always will) and the team was never the same without him

-Harris because anyone who could lead those wretched Senators teams to a pennant and a World Series championship deserves all the praise in the world

-Motta because of the sheer number of clashing egos he had to juggle to get the Bullets over the hump and to a championship 

Edited June 22, 2018 by thebluefood

[Warhead36]

I'd put John Thompson in there if you count college coaches. He built that Georgetown program into a national powerhouse from nothing.

[Sticksboi05]

Ovechkin is making this easier and easier every game. 33 years old with 28 goals in 31 games. He is a machine.

 

 

[Warhead36]

There is literally no argument against Ovi. In fairness there hasn't been for 5+ years now but there really isn't now.

[Dan T.]

Two favorite DC sport stories relevant to this thread.

 

1. Ty Cobb talking about the first time he faced Walter Johnson

 

On August 2, 1907, I encountered the most threatening sight I ever saw in the ball field. He was a rookie, and we licked our lips as we warmed up for the first game of a doubleheader in Washington. He was a tall, shambling galoot of about twenty, with arms so long they hung far out of his sleeves, and with a sidearm delivery that looked unimpressive at first glance. One of the Tigers imitated a cow mooing, and we hollered at Senators Manager Joe Cantillon: ‘Get the pitchfork ready, Joe—your hayseed’s on his way back to the barn.’

 

“The first time I faced him, I watched him take that easy windup. And then something went past me that made me flinch. His fastball looked about the size of a watermelon seed. The thing just hissed with danger.”

 

After the game, Cobb said, “We couldn’t touch him … every one of us knew we’d met the most powerful arm ever turned loose in a ball park.”

 

Cobb told Tigers owner Frank Navin that Johnson had the best arm he’d ever seen, and that his fastball was so fast, it scared him.

 

~~~

2. Sammy Baugh came of age at the dawn of the forward pass as a weapon in pro football.  At one of Baugh's first Redskins practices, Coach Ray Flaherty told the rookie tailback that passing in the NFL required accuracy. Sketching out a pass play, Coach Flaherty told Baugh to "hit the receiver in the eye."  Baugh replied, "Which eye?"

[Sticksboi05]

Ovechkin just led the NHL in goals for the 8th time. That is the most ever, more than Gretzky, more than Lemieux, more than anyone.

 

He also becomes the oldest player since the mid-70s to lead the league in goals. More 50 goal seasons then the rest of the entire active NHL combined.

 

Another Cup would be nice to solidify his DC GOAT status.