Greatest Athlete in D.C. History (team sports)

[Renegade7]

@Hersh is hits a defensive stat that even compares to interceptions?  Does hockey have a defensive rating stat like NBA does?

 

 

[Hersh]

14 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

@Hersh is hits a defensive stat that even compares to interceptions?  Does hockey have a defensive rating stat like NBA does?

 

 

 

Hits is a stat that would compare to Sean Taylor hitting someone hard or like Derrick Henry running over people. Causes turnovers and can wear a team down. People don't want to get hit by Ovechkin. Ever. 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Hersh

[Hersh]

28 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Let's revisit this if and when he passes Gretzky, who he's currently 150+ goals behind on the alltime scoring list. And this still ignores my question concerning his defense.

 

My closing argument from the person considered the greatest of all time in hockey. 

 

"So that's why I think if Alex can stay healthy, I think it's great for the game if he breaks the record because he is the greatest goalscorer that we've ever seen - because it's harder to score today than it was 30, 40, 50 years ago." 
-Wayne ****ing Gretzky 


 

[Springfield]

Well at least now, if you’re trying to compare Ovechkin to someone like Jordan then we are making progress. That elevates him to the echelon of GOAT at his sport, not just his city.

 

Also, compare a GOAT like Tom Brady to Alex Ovechkin. Who do you think is the better athlete in that argument?

 

Great 40 time or bench reps doesn’t equal great athlete.

[Renegade7]

11 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

Hits is a stat that would compare to Sean Taylor hitting someone hard or like Derrick Henry running over people. Causes turnovers and can wear a team down. People don't want to get hit by Ovechkin. Ever. 

 

Oh, cmon, your football examples are part of the game and not tracked for a reason.  You dodging my questions makes it appear like you admitting he's not a great defensive player, good maybe, but not great.  

[Forehead]

What makes me more sad is how barren the history of DC sports is for these types of players.  I mean, we're essentially arguing Ovechkin vs. Baugh, though I think Walter Johnson is being massively undervalued here.

 

But we only need to go about 3-5 names deep for our argument.

 

Then you think about a place like LA who would be arguing Kobe vs. Magic vs. Kareen vs. Gretzky (during his time with the Kings) vs. probably 20-30 different Dodgers over the years.  I can't even imagine how many people New York would have to argue over.

 

It is sad for us.

[Renegade7]

15 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

My closing argument from the person considered the greatest of all time in hockey. 

 

"So that's why I think if Alex can stay healthy, I think it's great for the game if he breaks the record because he is the greatest goalscorer that we've ever seen - because it's harder to score today than it was 30, 40, 50 years ago." 
-Wayne ****ing Gretzky 

 

So is he saying Ovi is a better scorer then him or better all around player?  You still dodging the defense question. 

[Hersh]

3 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

So is he saying Ovi is a better scorer then him or better all around player?  You still dodging the defense question. 

 

No, you just don't understand hockey nor do you even realize how unique Ovechkin is. Literally, the greatest hockey player of all time is telling you that Ovechkin is the greatest scorer of all time and that's not good enough for you. You are shown lists of accomplishments and people have attempted to explain to you his impact/playing style, but you want a hockey stat that compares to interceptions. Huh?  But please, keep telling us about Sammy Baugh and how no one will be like him again without mentioning how dramatically the NFL has changed from the 1940s. 

30 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Oh, cmon, your football examples are part of the game and not tracked for a reason.  You dodging my questions makes it appear like you admitting he's not a great defensive player, good maybe, but not great.  

 

This reads "I don't know **** about hockey." Ovechkin is not a great defender. Once again, that's not his game. Try to learn something about hockey cause you are sounding pretty ignorant at this point. 

[Long n Left]

I’ll add another name into the mix, as both one of the all-time greats in DC sports, and as a case study in hockey players vis a vis other sports: Rod Langway.

 

Rod was an old golf buddy of mine when I was in the area, and for some years later. Unfortunately, haven’t seen him in about 5 or 6 years. Rod is about the same size as Ovi, 6’3” and 220ish. He is a NHL Hall of Famer, led the Caps to their first winning season upon arrival from Montreal, and made the playoffs every one of the 11 years he captained the team. 
 

Rod was also all-state HS QB in Massachusetts, where he grew up, and went to UNH, because they would let him play both sports. Football coach there told him to focus on hockey, though many scouts thought he could have had a NFL career. Also, he was an all region baseball player in HS.

 

So yeah, I think great NHL players would be great in other sports had they chosen them. Don’t think Ovi had football or baseball opportunities growing up.

[Renegade7]

1 minute ago, Hersh said:

 

No, you just don't understand hockey nor do you even realize how unique Ovechkin is. Literally, the greatest hockey player of all time is telling you that Ovechkin is the greatest scorer of all time and that's not good enough for you. You are shown lists of accomplishments and people have attempted to explain to you his impact/playing style, but you want a hockey stat that compares to interceptions. Huh?  But please, keep telling us about Sammy Baugh and how no one will be like him again without mentioning how dramatically the NFL has changed from the 1940s. 

 

No, im asking for where he stands as a defensive player, and I'm essentially being told that it doesn't matter.  I find that rediculous in a thread asking about best DC athlete.  Defense not mattering to the capitals is a big reason we got bounced in the first round so much in the Ovi era, so I guess that computes. 

 

And to be fair, NBA has this problem when comparing eras as well, but saying Baugh dominating his sport in multiple phases doesn't matter because it was too long ago?  What specificly has changed in the NFL that makes what we did irrelevant? 

 

His impact on the passing game in the NFL is being completely undervalued here and Baugh is still leads the franchise in TD passes from an era that wasn't known for passing like today. He was ahead of his time in a way Ovi is not.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

8 minutes ago, Long n Left said:

I’ll add another name into the mix, as both one of the all-time greats in DC sports, and as a case study in hockey players vis a vis other sports: Rod Langway.

When I was just a young buck in PG County, my aunt dated him for a short time.  She used to hang out at some bar/pool hall they all hung out at.  She got me autographs and some memorabilia that I have no idea where they are anymore.

[Sticksboi05]

3 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

I admittedly am not a huge hockey follower, but is Ovi recognized as a great two way player (offense and defense)?  

 

This comes up in the NBA thread in regards to judging eras and accepting that today's athletes are usually physically superior to say 30-40 years ago and more.

 

Thats why its easier to say something like Jordan is the GOAT because he has scoring titles and defensive mvp award.  He's the only player in NBA history to win defensive mvp and score over 30ppg.  That transcended eras, it will be a while before someone else does that, if ever.

 

So this goes back to my point on Sammy Baugh.  His accomplishments as a player in all three phases of football makes him a better all around player then Ovi.  Baugh was a 4 time passing yards leader and then the interceptions leader on defense in 1943.  That is literally impossible in today's NFL.

 

So ill ask again, is Ovi as great a multi-phase player as Baugh, or is he jus a dominant scorer?  There may be another Ovi, but will there ever be another Sammy Baugh?

 

No he isn't but it's also not his job. Wayne Gretzky was not a good two way player and neither was Mario Lemieux. In hockey, being historically good offensively outweighs two-way play. I'm not sure the best defensive player in the NHL has ever also been the best offensive player. The exception might be Bobby Orr. But even when Sergei Fedorov won MVP and Selke (best defensive forward) in 1994 he was not the best offensive player in a league with Jagr, Lemieux and others.

 

44 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

This reads "I don't know **** about hockey." Ovechkin is not a great defender. Once again, that's not his game. Try to learn something about hockey cause you are sounding pretty ignorant at this point. 

 

Relax, it was a reasonable post.

 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Sticksboi05

[Long n Left]

45 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

When I was just a young buck in PG County, my aunt dated him for a short time.  She used to hang out at some bar/pool hall they all hung out at.  She got me autographs and some memorabilia that I have no idea where they are anymore.

My boy loves beer, and pretty ladies. Spent more than a few late nights out on the town with Rod. Running joke was that he wasn’t worth a **** on the golf course until he got AT LEAST a 6-pack in him. Great guy, miss him.

[tshile]

1 hour ago, Springfield said:

Also, compare a GOAT like Tom Brady to Alex Ovechkin. Who do you think is the better athlete in that argument?

 

Great 40 time or bench reps doesn’t equal great athlete.

I would consider Brady the best qb ever. I’m sure there are people who disagree but I am not one of them. 
 

give me ovi as the greater athlete every day of the week. 
 

he excelled at being a quarterback. But that position is just unlike what it means to play almost any other sport. Or any other position in football, really. 
 

 

[tshile]

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

No, im asking for where he stands as a defensive player, and I'm essentially being told that it doesn't matter.

He played left wing. It’s not really a defensive position. There are two defensive positions. 
 

when he was challenged to play defense I thought he played great. He played it the same way he played offense. Aggressive and yet an element of finesse that allowed him to make big plays. 
 

but he was t a defensemen 

 

and for large parts of his career he was routinely criticized for not even bothering to play defense. This is the part of his career that gets whitewashed post-cup. 
 

ovi was going to be a great hockey player no matter what position you put him in. 
 

but you’re not gonna find a stat that somehow shows how good he is. 

[Springfield]

17 minutes ago, tshile said:

I would consider Brady the best qb ever. I’m sure there are people who disagree but I am not one of them. 
 

give me ovi as the greater athlete every day of the week. 
 

he excelled at being a quarterback. But that position is just unlike what it means to play almost any other sport. Or any other position in football, really. 
 

 

Would you be hard pressed to name a better athlete in Boston history?

[tshile]

3 minutes ago, Springfield said:

Would you be hard pressed to name a better athlete in Boston history?

I can probably come up with 10 basketball players that are better athletes than him. 
 

[Springfield]

2 minutes ago, tshile said:

I can probably come up with 10 basketball players that are better athletes than him. 
 

Yeah, guys that can sprint faster, bench more, are taller, have better physical stamina of course.

 

I don’t think Boston has ever had a player like Brady and they never will again and I’d be fairly certain that most Bostonians would give up their history tied to any other player than they’d give up their history tied to Tom Brady.

 

 

[tshile]

12 minutes ago, Springfield said:

Yeah, guys that can sprint faster, bench more, are taller, have better physical stamina of course.

 

I don’t think Boston has ever had a player like Brady and they never will again and I’d be fairly certain that most Bostonians would give up their history tied to any other player than they’d give up their history tied to Tom Brady.

 

 

Oh yeah I think their Lombardi’s are their most prized 

But on an individual level Boston has a lot of incredible athletes in its history 

[Forehead]

12 minutes ago, Springfield said:

Yeah, guys that can sprint faster, bench more, are taller, have better physical stamina of course.

 

I don’t think Boston has ever had a player like Brady and they never will again and I’d be fairly certain that most Bostonians would give up their history tied to any other player than they’d give up their history tied to Tom Brady.

 

 

 

I don't know about that, to be honest.  Prior to Brady-Belichick, Boston was not at all a football town like some other places.  The two most revered teams in that city historically are the Celtics and Red Sox.  I mean, I'm sure they don't want to give away the six Super Bowls, but I'd love to see what happens when you try to make a Bostonian (whose name is required to either be "Murph" or "Sully") choose between Brady or Bird, Brady or Bill Russell, Brady or Pedro Martinez, Brady or Boggs, etc., etc.  They will agonize and probably drink a lot before making any decision.

[Springfield]

2 minutes ago, Forehead said:

 

I don't know about that, to be honest.  Prior to Brady-Belichick, Boston was not at all a football town like some other places.  The two most revered teams in that city historically are the Celtics and Red Sox.  I mean, I'm sure they don't want to give away the six Super Bowls, but I'd love to see what happens when you try to make a Bostonian (whose name is required to either be "Murph" or "Sully") choose between Brady or Bird, Brady or Bill Russell, Brady or Pedro Martinez, Brady or Boggs, etc., etc.  They will agonize and probably drink a lot before making any decision.

So apply that to DC.

 

Would we let Ovechkin go before we let other DC athletes?

[Forehead]

Just now, Springfield said:

So apply that to DC.

 

Would we let Ovechkin go before we let other DC athletes?

 

I wouldn't, but I've been arguing for Ovechkin this whole time.  I mean, my preferred order of the Big 4 is baseball, football, hockey, basketball, but I'm not sending Ovechkin away to keep Scherzer or Harper.  I wouldn't call him the Michael Jordan of hockey because of the earlier defense argument, but Ovechkin is probably on the Mount Rushmore of hockey by the time his career is over, and all with one team.  It is astounding when you think about it.

 

Even the glory years of the Skins aren't tied to one player.  If anything, they're tied to a coach.  We didn't have one QB that took us to all three Super Bowls.  Other than Darrell Green (and sorry, I love him, but a CB by himself isn't carrying a team to three super bowls) our most famous Skins are actually groups of players like the Hogs or Posse.

 

So no, I don't trade him away to keep any other DC athlete.  If I could look into the future and see Soto's career (as well as a guarantee he'd be a Nat forever) I'd at least be tempted, but I'd still take Ovi.

[The Evil Genius]

I was trying to do one for SF Bay Area and couldn't distinguish between Mays, Bonds, Marichal, Montana, Young, Rice, Curry, Wilt...

 

I picked Ovi btw for DC. 

[Ball Security]

23 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

I was trying to do one for SF Bay Area and couldn't distinguish between Mays, Bonds, Marichal, Montana, Young, Rice, Curry, Wilt...

 

I picked Ovi btw for DC. 

I’ll help you.  It’s Mays. 😎

[The Evil Genius]

9 minutes ago, Ball Security said:

I’ll help you.  It’s Mays. 😎

 

I think Rice is close though.