Miami Herald: I’m done trying to understand Trump supporters. Why don’t they try to understand me?

[Renegade7]

9 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

You would be amazed at how segregated your average Republican voter's life is.  They might have minimal professional interaction with ethnic minorities, but that's it.  And they are not exposed to minority views or culture except when it becomes absolutely mainstream.

Too many people look at BET and COPS and think they have Black People figured out, and you just touched on a big reason why that still is even in 2018:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/segregation-us-cities/?utm_term=.99f349c73676

 

As a minority born and raised in NOVA, I know my perspective is very different then someone in the midwest that can go extended periods of time without seeing someone a different race then them.  The country is huge, so I'm not sure how to address that outside of a mutual respective for people's differences (which has been a problem with this melting pot idea from get-go).   We have some plans in place to help, but if you look at the midwest with West Virginia in the epicenter, a lot of those ideas simply won't work because there just aren't enough minorities to begin with to say mixing them up more will make a lick of difference.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Renegade7

[Going Commando]

It's also an unfortunate cultural truth about the English that they have long been a particularly ethnocentric people, and Americans of English descent definitely inherited that from them.  That's a big part of why the standard reaction to being confronted by cultures and view points of different races and religions that you don't understand is so negative and dismissive here.  It's different in the New World countries that were settled by the Spanish.  It's like the English and their descendents have this built in psychological need for order, hierarchy, and homogeneity.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

11 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

I saw the absolutely resistance to his take over in the GOP, states debating on whether to withhold their delegates so he couldn't get the the nomination.

That’s not what I saw. I saw them try to blacklist Trump after the Grab Em by the **** tape but bend over about 5 days later once he started actively attempting to implode the party.

 

I agree with you that not everyone in the GOP is a steaming pile of ****... I think we need a Conservative party (we don’t currently have one). Problem is they elected Trump and more and more **** for brains candidates keep popping up.

 

These voters, if they aren’t mindless, need to realize that they also aren’t powerless. If they keep allowing the party to be steered in that direction and actively supporting it with their vote, then they deserve every single bit of criticism that they get.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Sacks 'n' Stuff

[TheGreatBuzz]

I don't think that is just an English descent thing.  I posted a while ago regarding racism across the world.  As bad as it seems here, I would bet good money we are easily in the top 5 of least racist places.  

 

*Have to add this before I get accused of saying something I'm not.  This does NOT mean that everything is good here and we should stop working on being even better.

[Going Commando]

4 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

As a minority born and raised in NOVA, I know my perspective is very different then someone in the midwest that can go extended periods of time without seeing someone a different race then them.  The country is huge, so I'm not sure how to address that outside of a mutual respective for people's differences (which has been a problem with this melting pot idea from get-go).   We have some plans in place to help, but if you look at the midwest with West Virginia in the epicenter, a lot of those ideas simply won't work because there just aren't enough minorities to begin with to say mixing them up more will make a lick of difference.

 

Education is just about the only way.  Teach kids to be respectful and open minded when they're young, but the education can only be so effective when you're getting the opposite messages at home and in your community.

 

Another big thing is empowering minority points of view and giving them mainstream exposure.  It's amazing how powerful culture can be as bridge between disparate groups.

 

It's going to take a lot of work and a lot of time to chop away at white supremacy in this country.  Hopefully we can get better and more tolerant with every generation.

[Renegade7]

2 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

That’s not what I saw. I saw them try to blacklist Trump after the Grab Em by the **** tape but bend over about 5 days once he started actively attempting to implode the party.

 

I agree with you that not everyone in the GOP is a steaming pile of ****... I think we need a Conservative party (we don’t currently have one). Problem is they elected Trump and more and more **** for brains candidates keep popping up.

 

These people aren’t mindless and the aren’t powerless. If they keep allowing the party to be steered in that direction and actively supporting it with their vote, then they deserve every single bit of criticism that they get.

I'm not going to completely disagree with you on your first sentence because we agree enough about this to keep it moving, the Never Trump movement, imo, was very real before that point and picked up steam the closer it got to the reality he was going to get the nomination.  If the GOP can't get back on track, they need to go, but not conservatism (that I believe we all agree on).

 

What bothers me probably more then anything else is it feels like Trump's election was like the Empire Strikes Back, and by Empire, I mean white people.  GOP seized on this to stay relevant instead of taking the risk of trying to diversify their party while staying on message with their core values.  GOP is trying to deny it while not hiding it, and the rest of the country sees right through it. Trump has attached himself to something very real that will be here after he's gone.  As I said, my opinion of the future of our country will change dramatically if GOP nominates another Trump for President, and not for the better.  

 

We're already at a point where Dems need to realize that finding a middle ground is futile if that's not what the other side wants.  For the good of the country, we may have no choice but to ignore the GOP if and when we get back power until the GOP can snap out of it (or they are replaced with a more reasonable conservative party).

[Renegade7]

11 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Education is just about the only way.  Teach kids to be respectful and open minded when they're young, but the education can only be so effective when you're getting the opposite messages at home and in your community.

 

Another big thing is empowering minority points of view and giving them mainstream exposure.  It's amazing how powerful culture can be as bridge between disparate groups.

 

It's going to take a lot of work and a lot of time to chop away at white supremacy in this country.  Hopefully we can get better and more tolerant with every generation.

 

Agreed.  I know it may not seem like it sometimes, but we are heading in the right direction, even if it seems like we took a step back all of the sudden.  This may sound crazy, but what's happened the last couple years actually has helped the country because the racists we knew were still here aren't hiding anymore, so we all better understand what we're dealing with in 2018 and can better plan for how to address it going forward.  First step in solving any problem is acknowledging you have one, US can't deny it anymore.

 

Another thing that bothers me is how diverse our country is, but our media doesn't consistently match that.  I can't really watch shows on CBS anymore because their primetime casts and lead actors are consistently dominated by Caucasians (also usually male).  And to be fair, I haven't watched a stitch of BET in well over a decade.  Our diversity is our strength, yet in many ways we refuse to use it.

[Spaceman Spiff]

7 hours ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

 

Did you watch Anthony Bourdain’s Parts Unknown in West Virginia?

There was a guy he interviewed who said as much that the reason he supports Trump is because Trump talks like they do. They embrace him for his lowest common denominator talk, his inflammatory speech because it’s the EXACT stuff they say.

 

Well, I know that.  You know that.  But trying to educate that guy by calling him a dumbass isn't going to open his eyes.  Yes, it's the exact stuff they say but it's not aimed at them.  

[Larry]

50 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Trump's base is a part of the GOP, not the entire GOP.

 

If we treat everyone that voted for Trump in the 2016 Election like they are part of his base, the polarization of the country will only get worse, never better.  I saw the absolutely resistance to his take over in the GOP, states debating on whether to withhold their delegates so he couldn't get the the nomination. 

 

GOP may have created this monster, so I have as little sympathy as anyone that it finally turned on them.  My final judgement on that side of the aisle is whether the GOP nominates another Trump knowing what we already suspected would happen coming to fruition.  As a liberal, even I know its in our country's best interests for competent conservative counter-balance. If GOP never snaps out of it, fine, we need to respond accordingly.

 

Yes, I can understand the theory that there are people who voted for Trump who aren't, for example, openly racist.  

 

At least in theory.  

 

I'm aware that I do have a tendency to sometimes jump to conclusions about people.  Sometimes bad assumptions.  I try to counter it, by consciously trying to come up with alternative theories about people.  Searching for other reasons why that person may behave in a certain way.  If I can come up with a palatable alternate theory, then I try to assume that said theory is the case.  It helps my world view, if I can come up with theories that "the world's not so bad, people just do <action x> because, well, maybe they think that . . . "

 

But with Trump and the GOP, I've been having trouble with that notion, for at least the last decade, here.  

 

 

Some pickup passes me on the road with a Trump bumper sticker, and I try to tell myself "They don't have that because they're racist.  They're simply willing to openly support a racist because . . . "  

 

But then, I can't finish the sentence.  

 

I mean, I could understand the notion of some imaginary Republican telling himself that "Yeah, I know he a man who has probably never gone a year without cheating on his current mail order bride, but I'll hold my nose and vote for him, anyway, because he, say, supports getting tough on the Russians, and a strong national defense."  

 

If he hadn't also run on a platform of getting rid of NATO.  And, well, ending our defense agreements with, well, everybody.  

 

But maybe, I tell myself, they support him because they're devout fiscal conservatives.  

 

But nope.  Only way that theory fits reality is if I once again conclude that the phrase "fiscal conservative" is another code phrase similar to "state's rights".  In this case, a code phrase for "intentionally explode the deficit via trillion dollar tax cuts on billionaires, then try to pretend that the resulting deficit which you intentionally caused, was actually caused by the only two parts of the federal government that do not contribute a dime to the deficit, so that you can attack them".  

 

And so my attempt to try to find some imaginary good motive to assign to that Trump supporter reduces to "Well, yeah, he's Russia's choice to be President, but at least he supports gutting Social Security and Medicare, and giving the money to billionaires (while still charging me the same amount of SS and Medicare taxes)"  And then I reflect on "No doubt some local fisherman, out for a pleasure cruise, at night, in eel-infested waters."

 

In short, the effort I'm putting in to trying to create the theory that well, Republicans aren't simply evil, they're just Republicans because they support (some redeeming quality of Republicans), keeps falling apart due to the fact that there aren't any redeeming qualities of Republicans.  

 

I can't find a single redeeming quality which I can latch on to, to try to say that maybe that's why they're doing all of this damage to the country.  

 

I mean, up until recently, I could at least say that well, I could see people supporting the R's, because they're strong on national defense.  But they're not even that, any more.  Frankly, the Democrats are better at that, now days.  Unless your definition of "strong on national defense" is "spending tons of money on defense contractors, and trying to start wars."  (And now, with trump, it's even wars with nuclear-armed countries.)  

 

In short, despite the fact that I've spent the last few years, maybe a decade or more, consciously trying to come up with some positive mental image of why someone might be a Republican, the best image I can come up with, is of someone who actually believes that the Republicans are better at (some issue) despite the easily demonstrated, obvious fact that they're actually far worse, at exactly that issue.  (Or, the flip side of that same coin, that they believe the image that the Republicans have created, that says that the Dems are terrible on defense or the budget, again despite the historical fact that the opposite is true.)  

 

In short, the best mental model I can create, to explain why someone would be a Republican, after the last decade or two, the only alternative to just assuming that said person is just flat out evil, is to assume that said person is a psychotic who will not take his medication.  

 

[AsburySkinsFan]

3 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Well, I know that.  You know that.  But trying to educate that guy by calling him a dumbass isn't going to open his eyes.  Yes, it's the exact stuff they say but it's not aimed at them.  

Oh no, when it’s aimed at them they get all offended and shut down...like exactly what happens when they do it against others. 

Trump stands up and says, “Liberal are dumbasses” and they cheer, I say that Trump supporters are dumbasses and alm the sudden I’m intolerant and won’t listen to their concerns. The double standard they run is absolutely self serving.

[Renegade7]

7 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Yes, I can understand the theory that there are people who voted for Trump who aren't, for example, openly racist.  

 

At least in theory.  

 

 

In short, the best mental model I can create, to explain why someone would be a Republican, after the last decade or two, the only alternative to just assuming that said person is just flat out evil, is to assume that said person is a psychotic who will not take his medication.  

 

 

More the fair. 

 

I've talked with enough of them to realize that many of them either know exactly what they are voting for or they don't.  To say that some voted for Trump because they thought it was the best way to get rid of the affordable care act is a perfect example of people voting against their best interests without looking at the GOP's platform and seeing if it really is in their best intrests. 

 

Some of them are just more gullible then racist, which isn't a compliment.  This is the result of the GOP's belief they could control this base they helped create and it completely backfiring on them.  Some of this has been around for a long time, but what is happening to the GOP didn't happen overnight and I believe is still fixable (though borderline impossible unless the GOP agrees to it).

12 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Oh no, when it’s aimed at them they get all offended and shut down...like exactly what happens when they do it against others. 

Trump stands up and says, “Liberal are dumbasses” and they cheer, I say that Trump supporters are dumbasses and alm the sudden I’m intolerant and won’t listen to their concerns. The double standard they run is absolutely self serving.

We were taught "two wrongs don't make a right", but our hand is absolutely getting forced in this regard.  The high road is supposed to matter more then it does right now, and its tearing us apart.

[GhostofSparta]

5 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Some pickup passes me on the road with a Trump bumper sticker, and I try to tell myself "They don't have that because they're racist.  They're simply willing to openly support a racist because . . . "  

 

But then, I can't finish the sentence.    

 

"Because Courts."

 

I was basically a RINO before Trump. I'm a registered R to vote in the primaries, but usually vote Libertarian (insert our favorite Mod's Libertarian joke here) in the general. PA is one of the last primaries. I voted for Kasich even though, despite being the only one left running against Trump, he was basically done by that point as well. Voted Johnson in the general. But a lot of "fellow" Republicans I know held their nose and voted for Trump because of the courts, specifically the Supreme Court. You know, the vacancy that people like twa were thrilled went unfilled for over half a year? That was their main issue. Hillary win means liberal judges and that vacancy gets filled with a liberal judge. Trump wins and the people who "control him behind the scenes" (they thought he could be controlled, don't ask me why or how) would push him to nominate the correct people and policies. The idea was that Trump would be a rubber stamp for a Republican controlled congress, too busy/distracted to really care about or do anything, just signing and nominating how he was told.

 

Many of the people I talked with had the twa attitude of "I'm not voting for Trump, I'm just voting Republican. Yes, he's the Republican I'm technically voting for, but I'm not really voting for him, I'm just voting Republican. Who happens to be Trump. But it's not the same."

 

Racist comments? Sure, they're bad, but we really just need the border wall and to enforce immigration laws.

Misogyny? Irrelevant because of abortion-related topics

Multiple failed businesses and unethical practices? Doesn't matter, we need a businessman instead of just more politicians like always.

Bully-type behavior? Well it's about time. Those damn liberals have been bullying us and our beliefs for the last couple of decades, so it's about time they get a taste of their own medicine.

And of course, as was always the clincher, "Well, it doesn't matter, because Hillary....(you know all the ways this sentence ends)."

 

It's about party loyalty. It's about the Courts. It's about having the chance to undo everything Obama did, because if Hillary wins then it'll be too late. By the time 2020 rolls around, it'll be too late. 2016, and by extension Trump, required them to make a stand they maybe didn't want to make but felt compelled to make or risk political irrelevance for 4 years.

 

That said, yeah, there's sizable minority for whom the racism, misogyny, bullying, etc are a selling point. These people will not be swayed unless Trump is somehow completely and utterly humiliated on a grand scale and he becomes useless to them as some sort of symbolic hammer with which to hurt their enemies. You can't win over those people unless Trump goes away on his own.

 

So to sum up: "They're willing to openly support a racist because..." they don't care. It doesn't affect them, so to them it's just a minor issue that nobody else should care about either.

 

[Renegade7]

12 minutes ago, GhostofSparta said:

So to sum up: "They're willing to openly support a racist because..." they don't care. It doesn't affect them, so to them it's just a minor issue that nobody else should care about either.

 

An extended family member shared an openly racist post against Muslims on FB the other day, and many including myself came after him for it, he never defended himself, but others came to his defense for him. 

 

By time thread was over, people were deleting their posts and saying "well, he's still a nice guy".  Ya, he's nice to you... 

[LadySkinsFan]

I won't put up with friends like that. And I won't date anyone who voted for Trump or most Republicans, life's too short.

[88Comrade2000]

Actually, what's stupid that they are some minorities- blacks and hispanics that voted for Trump and support him now.  If Trump gets enough of them in 2020; going to be hard to win.  They can't be that stupid can they?

 

Even if the Dems do well and win the House, Trump's not on the ballot. 2020 when push comes to shove, I fully expect everyone that voted for him; to do it again.  It doesn't matter if they voted Dems in 2018. When push comes to shove in 2020, as long as the economy is humming; they will pull the lever for ****hole again.

 

I don't have confidence in the Dms nominating someone who can beat him.  Their base pulls left and odds are their nominee will be to far to the left to win.

 

If there's a credible third candidate that gets Ross Perot or better type numbers; don't know if that helps Trump or helps the Dem.

 

 

[Renegade7]

21 minutes ago, LadySkinsFan said:

I won't put up with friends like that. And I won't date anyone who voted for Trump or most Republicans, life's too short.

I feel you. 

 

In that story, no one that came to his defense is FB friends with me, all my closer family members on that side that saw it and I talk to felt same way I did, but many haven't unfriended him yet.  It really sucks when that's in your family, part of me wants to hear why he did that, but the other half doesn't give two ****s.  If he does it again, I'm done, anyone on FB that ain't family that does that, there's no second guessing and my FB is pretty clean for the most part because of it.

 

I wouldn't want that "but Hillary..." discussion at my dinner table with our kids present, so right now, ya, I couldn't date someone who voted for Trump either.  Cutting them all off completely is different for me, but I already know I'm not in line with a lot of liberals here on that issue. I still believe we have to find some way to reconcile, the alternative is just not worth it when you step back and realize where it leads to (looking at the electoral college map for 2016 is a huge hint to why I say that, this is much bigger picture for me).

Edited May 12, 2018 by Renegade7

[Spaceman Spiff]

2 hours ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Oh no, when it’s aimed at them they get all offended and shut down...like exactly what happens when they do it against others. 

Trump stands up and says, “Liberal are dumbasses” and they cheer, I say that Trump supporters are dumbasses and alm the sudden I’m intolerant and won’t listen to their concerns. The double standard they run is absolutely self serving.

 

Right.  So why not take the high road and not call them a dumbass (even though you really really want to)?  

[LadySkinsFan]

My uncle is a huge Rush Limbaugh fan, and I know he voted for Trump. He's not on FB thankfully. 

 

I am very choosy about FB friends, won't friend anyone I haven't met face to face. 

[Renegade7]

7 minutes ago, LadySkinsFan said:

won't friend anyone I haven't met face to face. 

 

Solid rule, same here. I'd make exceptions for some of ya'll since some we've been talking for well over a decade, but I'm not a friend collector like some people I know, I don't care how cute you are what if your beliefs line up with mine.  That's not why I have FB.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Renegade7

[Larry]

1 hour ago, GhostofSparta said:

"Because Courts."

 

 

 

Because courts what?  

 

"Courts" isn't a position, it's a means of achieving a position.  

 

Yeah, I can see somebody, in effect, saying "Because courts will make it legal for my business to discriminate".  

 

But, sorry, that boils down to "Trump, because discriminate."  

 

Similarly, I can see Republican politicians being in the position of "I support Trump because Republican power".  But that just leads to "Power to do what?"  

 

I'm still struggling to find some way of completing this sentence.  

 

I can see the concept of supporting evil, because it's a price one has to pay, to achieve some Good.  

 

But I can't find a single Good, in the entire Republican portfolio.  Not one.  

 

And I'm actively looking for one.  It would really make me feel better about my world, if I could find one.  

 

Maybe I could see it, if their one overriding Good, which they think justifies all of the evil, is abortion.  I would disagree with their values.  But I could at least grudgingly admit that maybe they honestly think that one issue is worth everything else.  

 

But I can't believe that there's that many people who feel that way.  

 

 

[TheGreatBuzz]

4 minutes ago, Larry said:

Because courts what?  

 

"Courts" isn't a position, it's a means of achieving a position.  

 

Yeah, I can see somebody, in effect, saying "Because courts will make it legal for my business to discriminate".  

 

But, sorry, that boils down to "Trump, because discriminate." 

From what I have seen, it "courts" because they don't want liberal decisions made on things like the 2nd, abortion, and other hot button topics.

[GhostofSparta]

34 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Because courts what?  

 

"Courts" isn't a position, it's a means of achieving a position.  

 

28 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

From what I have seen, it "courts" because they don't want liberal decisions made on things like the 2nd, abortion, and other hot button topics.

It's mostly what Buzz said. I wasn't trying to portray them as saints, you just said you were wondering what the support could be besides racism. There are other forms of discrimination that they tacitly support under various justifications. They want to control the courts because:

 

-Some are honestly deluded enough to think that a "conservative" Supreme Court will somehow overturn Roe v Wade and make abortion illegal

-Some are horrified at how far LGBTQIA+ causes have come in the last 10-20 years, and want either a Supreme Court that will halt these "activist" lower courts from granting equal rights that the state legislatures can't, or perhaps conservative judges on the lower court that can act the same way if the SC is either stacked in their favor or won't take up the case.

-Some are legitimately crazy and think that a liberal SC will take away their guns. They want conservative judges because of their very specific view on the 2nd.

 

These are some of the main reasons besides "because racism" that people did and will not just support Trump, but do so loudly and proudly. These are your bumper sticker crowd. I'm not saying there are any great choices there to finish your sentence, but you can pick some other awful option depending on your mood.

 

Aside from the "because Courts" crowd, there are also those who know that Republicans will give them tax cuts. All of the fall-out from those cuts be damned, they want those cuts and historically, Republicans are the ones that share that view with them. For these people, they're more likely to be the quiet ones. The ones that lie to pollsters to give Hillary a 3-5% lead going into election day only to quietly pull the lever for Trump and leave everybody shaking their heads at how the hell that just happened. But they won't be your yard sign/bumper sticker people so that they can blend in to the rest of society without being mocked.

 

My Father-in-Law might be one of those people. He's in the top 1%, he wanted a tax cut. He lives in New England in an area that's pretty LBTQIA+ friendly and doesn't have very many minorities or immigrants, so that kind of stuff isn't even on his radar. I personally hope my wife and I convinced him to vote against Trump (not that it mattered in his state, Hillary won there easily), but he's mentioned voting for Hillary so I'm not sure what he actually ended up doing (see blending in to polite society above).

 

But like I said, he's not going to be the guy with a bumper sticker, so I realize that's not the scenario you painted. I apologize for the diversion. It's the out and proud supporters that I also struggle to find good motives for despite knowing several of those types of voters.

 

[AsburySkinsFan]

5 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Right.  So why not take the high road and not call them a dumbass (even though you really really want to)?  

When the net result is the same, then I’ll call them dumbasses because at least then I’m not stifling my emotions. 

Besides, they were the ones who wanted an end to PC language. I guess what they really meant was that they just wanted an end of PC language for them to be able to say whatever the hell they wanted. 

Too bad.

[Springfield]

Did anyone catch rep Duncan Hunter of CA on Real Time with Bill Maher this week?  Full on buttery males Trumper who thinks that there are bad people around Trump... but Trump himself isn’t bad.

 

That guy is a dumbass.

[No Excuses]

9 minutes ago, Springfield said:

Did anyone catch rep Duncan Hunter of CA on Real Time with Bill Maher this week?  Full on buttery males Trumper who thinks that there are bad people around Trump... but Trump himself isn’t bad.

 

That guy is a dumbass.

 

I was just about to post this. It’s a mind numbing interview. To lie intentionally like that with no shame is just incredible to watch. You could tell that it’s all an act and he just doesn’t care. 

 

It is such a sad reflection of the Republican base that they take these jabronis seriously.