NYT - Redskins Cheerleaders Describe Trip to Costa Rica that Crossed the Line

[XtremeFan55]

1 minute ago, Califan007 said:

 

Can you describe some examples?

Let’s keep it within the realm of sexual harassment...not banking or tax laws.  I too have been subjected to an IRS audit where they stated ‘ignorance is no excuse’ when the tax laws are over 70,000 pages long.  Not even the auditors know the whole laws.

 

Cosby’s lawyer could have used the argument that his client’s victims were in consent just by going to Cosby’s hotel rooms.  Coercion is when you use mental pressure to get consent such as the threat of job loss, etc.  

 

In the Redskin’s case.   The cheerleaders have been given the reward of a free trip to Costa Rico then asked to surrender their passports once they were thousands of miles from home.  They could have resisted but logic dictates that they could have been weighing the risk/reward consequences of their actions.  Free trip with the naive thinking that nothing bad could happen....versus...being  forced to go home at their expense since the tickets were paid for by the Redskins and return flight maybe 2-3 days later plus possibly losing their job.

 

This will all play out over time and I guarantee it won’t go away.   You can’t sweep this under the rug nor spin your way out at a time when sexual harassment is THE social issue of the day.

 

Snyder is screwed.  And for those who have been hoping for an owner change...you have been given a gift.

[goskins10]

4 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

It's not coercion if they agree to surrendering their passports before even working one second for the company. And ignorance of the law doesn't fly in court, either.

 

 

 

Not all agreements are binding. The court can find the requirement - regardless of if they agreed to it or not - violated their constitutional rights. Either way, surrendering their passports is only one part of this. They were intimidated into doing things they did not want to do. Taking their passports is just part of the intimidation. No court would uphold such a contract with these results. Assuming this is all true - they can show a pattern of coercion, intimidation and misrepresentation. Just because there is some written document does not automatically remove all rights. That would be for the court to decide. Based on what we know to be true - again I do agree we need to know all the facts and I am sure there are some missing - but if even half of it is true, any such document would never hold up. 

 

 

And for all those macho men out there saying - "I would tell them to F-off, give me my passport back" You really have no clue. Let's start with what happens when they say no - I will not give you the passport back until you do what I tell you? These are mostly all under 30 Y/O women. Do you suggest they beat people up? Not likely. And the law will not help them there. It's not the local laws problem. They are more likely to rape them than help them. Or let's try how will you get home? They could easily say well you want your passport to leave, figure out how to get home on your own. Or better yet, both, sorry I lost your passport, but you are fired. Good luck finding your way home. That turns into jail in a foreign land. This is a nightmare that has no definite ending. And no, I am not being overly dramatic. This is how it happens in many places outside the US. And Costa Rico is one of those places. 

 

It's easy to sit at home and say things like -"well just.....", it's entirely different being there. 

 

 

 

[nonniey]

8 minutes ago, youngestson said:

 

................ and get rid of cheerleaders already. God bless em' I'm sure there are nice people, but they add nothing to the game day experience and are a liability in this day and age. 

 

The last thing we need is yet ANOTHER blow to the reputation of the organization.

Oh yeah that would look great lets fire the victims, 

[goskins10]

Just now, nonniey said:

Oh yeah that would look great lets fire the victims, 

 

Not sure that's what people mean. For me, I think in general it's time to move away from cheerleaders. This isn't their fault in any way shape or form - despite what some keep saying. But the removal of cheerleaders is more an overall suggestion. 

[DiscoBob]

It's clear to everyone that this sort of behavior is not tolerable PERIOD

 

My problem with this discussion similar to others in the thread - objectification of people (mostly, but not exclusively women).  As a society, this mentality is toxic.  However, you can't write laws that control attitudes and thoughts.  

 

So - we should pile on the team for crap like this, BUT, every person needs to examine themself to see if they are contributing to the toxic culture of objectification.  They also need to realize that other actions, deemed socially acceptable, are on the same spectrum as what the team and VIPs did.  Sure, it may not be as bad, but it contributes to a society where this type of stuff happens.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 minute ago, goskins10 said:

 

Not all agreements are binding. The court can find the requirement - regardless of if they agreed to it or not - violated their constitutional rights.

 

 

And just because you did something you didn't reallyl want to do doesn't make it coercion...and really, my post was in response to the idea that having a contract like that would never hold up in court. I said it was a possible loophole legally, meaning it might not be as clear-cut as "give me your passports, now" while confused cheerleaders looked around the room, frightened.

 

And for all those macho men out there saying - "I would tell them to F-off, give me my passport back" You really have no clue. Let's start with what happens when they say no - I will not give you the passport back until you do what I tell you?

 

Actually it would be 'I would tell them to F-off, I'm not giving you my passport"...not sure why you'd give your passport, THEN say "F-off give it back" lol...

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

19 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

Can you describe some examples?

Consumers sign numerous documents when receiving a mortgage to buy a house.  Throughout those documents are a lot of catch-all's and information about will happen in the event of non-payment.  Time and time again we see where judges find or make loopholes in what the consumer signed in an effort to rule in their favor.

 

I'm not saying they are wrong in doing so, just that it happens all the time.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

8 minutes ago, XtremeFan55 said:

Let’s keep it within the realm of sexual harassment...not banking or tax laws.  I too have been subjected to an IRS audit where they stated ‘ignorance is no excuse’ when the tax laws are over 70,000 pages long.  Not even the auditors know the whole laws.

 

Cosby’s lawyer could have used the argument that his client’s victims were in consent just by going to Cosby’s hotel rooms.  Coercion is when you use mental pressure to get consent such as the threat of job loss, etc.  

 

In the Redskin’s case.   The cheerleaders have been given the reward of a free trip to Costa Rico then asked to surrender their passports once they were thousands of miles from home.

 

 

You weren't the one I was asking that question to lol, but i'll respond to the part on bold.

 

In the loophole I described, the cheerleaders were told well in advance that they'd have to surrender their passports when traveling abroad...it wasn't sprung on them once they were "thousands of miles from home."

[OVCChairman]

 

 

for what it's worth

[Riggo-toni]

[JSSkinz]

It shouldn't be difficult to get to the bottom of this, there were 2 Redskins executives at the event.

 

Lon Rosenberg - senior vice president for operations and Dennis Greene - president for business operations

 

"The cheerleaders said they were further bothered by the fact that Redskins officials were there, too. Ms. Jojokian was not, but Lon Rosenberg, the senior vice president for operations, and Dennis Greene, the president for business operations, were. A former Redskins cheerleader who volunteered as a sideline assistant during games was encouraging the women to drink and flirt, the cheerleaders said."

[Renegade7]

1 minute ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

for what it's worth

 

I hate this.  Court of Public opinion has already found us guilty without all the facts being out.

 

To confirm, in regards to Statutes of Limitations, is it Virginia that would have to file charges given where Redskins Park is located?  I'm seeing 5 years as max in most websites (which is probably why this is coming out now).

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

for what it's worth

I was under the impression that the career of a Redskins cheerleader is a short one.  Maybe I'm wrong on that but I'd venture a guess that many of the current squad were not present during the 2013 trip.  I'm interested to know if the 2 Redskins cheerleaders disputing it currently work for the team and were present on that trip.

[OVCChairman]

3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I was under the impression that the career of a Redskins cheerleader is a short one.  Maybe I'm wrong on that but I'd venture a guess that many of the current squad were not present during the 2013 trip.  I'm interested to know if the 2 Redskins cheerleaders disputing it currently work for the team and were present on that trip.

 

 

[theTruthTeller]

Is there a reason to argue whether or not the team could hold the passports of the cheerleader if the cheerleaders contractually agreed to it?  There is no reason to believe that the cheerleader agreement has this stipulation.  And if the cheerleaders did agree to surrender their passports when representing the Skins in a foreign country, it wouldn't mean that it would be allowable to use the team's possession of the passport to coerce a cheerleader into immoral behavior.  In fact, it makes it worse, because it looks like the pimping was planned well in advance.

[theTruthTeller]

13 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

for what it's worth

Someday I'll learn how to copy a tweet, but Craig Hoffman also tweeted the NBC News has talked to two additional cheerleaders (not in the group of 5 that talked to the NYT) that confirmed the details in the article.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

6 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

Thanks.

 

Still hard to take much from it, because as someone else said earlier - I'm sure there were cheerleaders that relished in this type of stuff.  Most likely there were others who don't. 

[XtremeFan55]

Ok...lets look at it from another perspective.   Who in his right mind would surrender a passport in a foreign country?  You would have to be incredibly naive and stupid to do that.  I guard mine overseas like my life depends on it.

 

Then...you have to ask...who would even require someone to surrender their passports?   What is the rationale for requiring something like this?   Did every employee, sponsor, booster, or person have to also surrender their passports or just the cheerleaders?   

 

Also as far as statues of limitations....Cosby got convicted based on an act that happened 14 years ago.

[PerryMason]

Not saying this is the right way to do things at all.  But just so everyone understands, I have a close friend (female) in the modeling industry and this kind of thing happens all the time.  She says at nearly every photo shoot, they ask her if she wants to go topless for some shots, even if that was never mentioned previously.  This is obviously different than being required to do so, but it just kind of shows insight in to how the world of modeling focuses on trying to get nudity involved (bc sex sells).  

 

Especially the escort part is common.   Modeling agencies get contracted to provide models to be flown out to hang out and drink/party with the rich/celebs at Las Vegas clubs and other places around the nation.   She said there was never anything "understood" about doing it (i.e. prostitution), she said you may get hit on and asked up to a room, but she never felt pressured to comply and she did them because of the amount of money the agency offered for the jobs (more than usual jobs).  Granted these are NFL cheerleaders, but i can't help but wonder if its being run sort of as a modeling agency.  For the record the modeling world is insane.

[XtremeFan55]

Better to read the story again...

 

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2018/05/03/redskins-cheerleaders-felt-forced-to-escort-entertain-men-during-costa-rica-trip-report-says.amp.html

 

’forced’....’mandatory’...felt like ‘prostitute’....etc...

 

This is classic coercion....they have a case and the Redskins have a major nightmare on their hands....

[Califan007 The Constipated]

5 minutes ago, PerryMason said:

Not saying this is the right way to do things at all.  But just so everyone understands, I have a close friend (female) in the modeling industry and this kind of thing happens all the time.  She says at nearly every photo shoot, they ask her if she wants to go topless for some shots, even if that was never mentioned previously.  This is obviously different that being required to do so, but it just kind of shows insight in to how the world of modeling focuses on trying to get nudity involved (bc sex sells).  

 

Especially the escort part is common.   Modeling agencies get contracted to provide models to be flown out to hang out and drink/party with the rich/celebs at Las Vegas clubs and other places around the nation.   She said there was never anything "understood" about doing it (i.e. prostitution), she said you may get hit on and asked up to a room, but she never felt pressured to comply and she did them because of the amount of money the agency offered for the jobs (more than usual jobs).  Granted these are NFL cheerleaders, but i can't help if its being run sort of as a modeling agency.  For the record the modeling world is insane.

4

 

It absolutely is. (the part in bold)

 

[PerryMason]

2 minutes ago, XtremeFan55 said:

Better to read the story again...

 

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2018/05/03/redskins-cheerleaders-felt-forced-to-escort-entertain-men-during-costa-rica-trip-report-says.amp.html

 

’forced’....’mandatory’...felt like ‘prostitute’....etc...

 

This is classic coercion....they have a case and the Redskins have a major nightmare on their hands....

 

Better to read my post again "This is obviously different than being required to do so, but it just kind of shows insight in to how the world of modeling focuses on trying to get nudity involved (bc sex sells)." 

 

Didn't defend it, just providing more information on how that world works, right or wrong.

[TSO]

I don’t see why believing that cheerleading, especially at the pro level, is largely about the objectification of women (and having a distaste for it because of that) needs to be made mutually exclusive from also recognizing just how wrong what happened on that trip was (and anything similar to it happening anywhere else)? 

 

I personally believe in both and find nothing contradictory there. One idea does not justify the other. A cycle of wrong isn’t suddenly made right at any point within said cycle. 

 

And just to be clear, I don’t think anyone really advocated that here, but I think it can be implied at times. 

[goskins10]

36 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

And just because you did something you didn't reallyl want to do doesn't make it coercion...and really, my post was in response to the idea that having a contract like that would never hold up in court. I said it was a possible loophole legally, meaning it might not be as clear-cut as "give me your passports, now" while confused cheerleaders looked around the room, frightened.

 

I get that. But my point is just the other side. Just because you signed something like that does not mean it would hold up. As for coersion - that would be up to the courts to decide what is and what is not coercion. In fact, simply doing something you don;t want to do could be interpreted that way. It could also be interpreted as you are an idiot for agreeing if you didn't want to. 

 

I realize you are talking to these points individually but to me that's not really the issue here. In a vacuum each item may not be a problem or can be rationalized away, maybe even legally justified, but when you put them together this was a heinous act - something I do not think you disagree with. 

 

36 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

 

 

Actually it would be 'I would tell them to F-off, I'm not giving you my passport"...not sure why you'd give your passport, THEN say "F-off give it back" lol...

 

I started as broader response to a bigger topic, not just as it relates to the passport issue, Sorry I was not celar enough - many comments have been that when they started seeing guys around and then being asked to go with these men, they should refuse and demand their passport back and quit. So if you have already give the passport in good faith but then realize it's all BS, then you would be asking for it after you already gave it to them. 

 

 

[Unbias]

Sorta terrible. As a father of 2 girls who like football and like cheerleaders I'm pretty disgusted.

 

Granted, this happened when Harvey Weinstein was in his prime, Bill Cosby could do no wrong and the #metoo movement wasn't even a thing. In short sexual harassment was an extremely large issue in all workplaces, but it didn't have the public outrage that it does today.

 

To me any type of discipline that happened will be reassessed and will probably be adjusted to be more heavy handed sorta like the Ray Rice suspension that was revisited when a video came out. I fully understand there isn't a video (yet), but I'm more referring to society's thoughts on this issue have changed drastically. 

 

Anyway, I'm sure other teams have sexual harassment stories linked to Cheerleaders that are just sitting under the surface, but at this time it's only us looking horrible. 

 

To be clear with this issue we have to take it seriously. Let's be classy, accept our team was dead wrong and accept any repercussions linked to this story. This isn't like the Redskins name argument where it means something different to us football fans. This is something that is universally wrong and we just gotta be humble about it.