Redskins receiving corp is beginning to shape up

[OVCChairman]

3 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

Granted.

However,

2nd round Malcomb Kelly

2nd round Devin Thomas (first player taken, no first round pick this year)

3rd Round Leonard Hankerson

 

So, we have tried in the last 10 years. We just have nothing to show for it. and the other issue, the one I noticed you failed to mention, we have a QB that doesn't rely on his outside receivers much. He's a TE/RB/slot WR guy.

 

 

Ok, well you said 1st rounders....

 

And NONE of the people making those decisions are still with the team as far as talent evaluation goes.  Now I understand it's all a fluid system because thing change... who's available when you pick... what the cap ramifications are... what team needs you have at a given time... but we have not invested resources in home grown WR talent.... not on guys who can take over games, we've looked to FA for that for a long time.  

 

 

As far as Smith goes with who he relies on... he also hasn't had the WR weapons.  I don't disagree that him OR Jay for that matter, have a tendency to run the offense through the players inside the numbers...but both have shown that ability when the weapons are in place.  Alex did it with Hill.  Gruden did it with Garcon / Jackson.  

 

I don't think it should be overlooked that Smith had Davis in SF, and Kelce in KC.  Both of which have been viewed as THE BEST pass catching TEs in the game during their respective primes.  I can't blame him for being comfortable inside.  Offenses were drawn up to go through those guys.  Now he's here for Jay where we have Reed, Thompson, and Crowder... between the hash type players.  I don't think that means we won't use talent on the outside if it's there.  Doc may be a miss, but that doesn't mean using a 1st round pick on a WR should be forgotten.  

 

No.	Player	Age	Pos	G	GS	Att	Yds	TD	Lng	Y/A	Y/G	A/G	Tgt	Rec	Yds ▼	Y/R	TD	Lng	R/G	Y/G	Ctch%	Touch	Y/Tch	YScm	RRTD	Fmb
15	Michael Crabtree	24	WR	15	14	1	6	0	6	6.0	0.4	0.1	115	72	874	12.1	4	52	4.8	58.3	62.6%	73	12.1	880	4	0
85	Vernon Davis	27	TE	16	16	2	-5	0	-2	-2.5	-0.3	0.1	95	67	792	11.8	6	44	4.2	49.5	70.5%	69	11.4	787	6	3
10	Kyle Williams	23	wr	13	1	2	32	0	25	16.0	2.5	0.2	31	20	241	12.1	3	56	1.5	18.5	64.5%	22	12.4	273	3	2
19	Ted Ginn	26	wr	14	3	8	68	0	24	8.5	4.9	0.6	33	19	220	11.6	0	26	1.4	15.7	57.6%	27	10.7	288	0	0
84	Josh Morgan	26	wr	5	5	0	0	0	0		0.0	0.0	20	15	220	14.7	1	30	3.0	44.0	75.0%	15	14.7	220	1	0
46	Delanie Walker	27	te	15	7	3	5	0	14	1.7	0.3	0.2	35	19	198	10.4	3	29	1.3	13.2	54.3%	22	9.2	203	3	1
32	Kendall Hunter	23	rb	16	1	112	473	2	44	4.2	29.6	7.0	26	16	195	12.2	0	44	1.0	12.2	61.5%	128	5.2	668	2	1
17	Braylon Edwards	28	wr	9	5	0	0	0	0		0.0	0.0	34	15	181	12.1	0	24	1.7	20.1	44.1%	15	12.1	181	0

 

This is Smith's best year in SF... Crabtree had more targets than Davis did.

 

 

here is Pre-Tyreek Hill's amazing rookie season...  Maclin again, more targets

 

No.	Player	Age	Pos	G	GS	Att	Yds	TD	Lng	Y/A	Y/G	A/G	Tgt	Rec	Yds ▼	Y/R	TD	Lng	R/G	Y/G	Ctch%	Touch	Y/Tch	YScm	RRTD	Fmb
19	Jeremy Maclin	27	WR	15	15	3	14	0	18	4.7	0.9	0.2	124	87	1088	12.5	8	61	5.8	72.5	70.2%	90	12.2	1102	8	2
87	Travis Kelce*	26	TE	16	16	0	0	0	0		0.0	0.0	103	72	875	12.2	5	42	4.5	54.7	69.9%	72	12.2	875	5	2
12	Albert Wilson	23	WR	14	12	5	26	0	8	5.2	1.9	0.4	57	35	451	12.9	2	44	2.5	32.2	61.4%	40	11.9	477	2	0
35	Charcandrick West	24	RB	15	9	160	634	4	38	4.0	42.3	10.7	34	20	214	10.7	1	80	1.3	14.3	58.8%	180	4.7	848	5	1
17	Chris Conley	23	wr	16	5	0	0	0	0		0.0	0.0	31	17	199	11.7	1	44	1.1	12.4	54.8%	17	11.7	199	1	0
25	Jamaal Charles	29	rb	5	5	71	364	4	34	5.1	72.8	14.2	29	21	177	8.4	1	26	4.2	35.4	72.4%	92	5.9	541	5	2
13	De'Anthony Thomas	22	wr	10	1	9	34	1	13	3.8	3.4	0.9	25	17	140	8.2	1	36	1.7	14.0	68.0%	26	6.7	174	2	2
81	Jason Avant	32	wr	16	1	0	0	0	0		0.0	0.0	24	15	119	7.9	0	20	0.9	7.4	62.5%	15	7.9	119	0

 

I think Smith may be labeled as a dink and dunk type guy, because he hasnt had a choice.  A first round WR could SERIOUSLY open up this offense if it's the right guy.  

[RandyHolt]

I wish Byron Marshall was healthy.  Having 2 hands backs in the game at once is foreign concept for us, but not for some of the leagues most productive offenses.   We can muck through the year with low productivity from our wide outs but we will need a solid run game to lead the way.  That will open up the passing game if they remain unproductive.

Edited September 27, 2018 by RandyHolt

[Morneblade]

1 hour ago, OVCChairman said:

 

Ok, well you said 1st rounders....

 

And NONE of the people making those decisions are still with the team as far as talent evaluation goes.  Now I understand it's all a fluid system because thing change... who's available when you pick... what the cap ramifications are... what team needs you have at a given time... but we have not invested resources in home grown WR talent.... not on guys who can take over games, we've looked to FA for that for a long time.  

 

There is actually a good reason for this. WR's are probably the hardest to predict coming out of College.

 

1 hour ago, OVCChairman said:

 

As far as Smith goes with who he relies on... he also hasn't had the WR weapons.  I don't disagree that him OR Jay for that matter, have a tendency to run the offense through the players inside the numbers...but both have shown that ability when the weapons are in place.  Alex did it with Hill.  Gruden did it with Garcon / Jackson.  

 

Actually, I'll disagree about Jay. Jay runs his offense through WR mostly. You saw that in Cincy and when he had them here. It's only with a complete lack of WR talent than it goes inside.

 

1 hour ago, OVCChairman said:

I don't think it should be overlooked that Smith had Davis in SF, and Kelce in KC.  Both of which have been viewed as THE BEST pass catching TEs in the game during their respective primes.  I can't blame him for being comfortable inside.  Offenses were drawn up to go through those guys.  Now he's here for Jay where we have Reed, Thompson, and Crowder... between the hash type players.  I don't think that means we won't use talent on the outside if it's there.  Doc may be a miss, but that doesn't mean using a 1st round pick on a WR should be forgotten.  

 

Rather large assumption. Anything to back that up?

 

1 hour ago, OVCChairman said:

 

No.	Player	Age	Pos	G	GS	Att	Yds	TD	Lng	Y/A	Y/G	A/G	Tgt	Rec	Yds ▼	Y/R	TD	Lng	R/G	Y/G	Ctch%	Touch	Y/Tch	YScm	RRTD	Fmb
15	Michael Crabtree	24	WR	15	14	1	6	0	6	6.0	0.4	0.1	115	72	874	12.1	4	52	4.8	58.3	62.6%	73	12.1	880	4	0
85	Vernon Davis	27	TE	16	16	2	-5	0	-2	-2.5	-0.3	0.1	95	67	792	11.8	6	44	4.2	49.5	70.5%	69	11.4	787	6	3
10	Kyle Williams	23	wr	13	1	2	32	0	25	16.0	2.5	0.2	31	20	241	12.1	3	56	1.5	18.5	64.5%	22	12.4	273	3	2
19	Ted Ginn	26	wr	14	3	8	68	0	24	8.5	4.9	0.6	33	19	220	11.6	0	26	1.4	15.7	57.6%	27	10.7	288	0	0
84	Josh Morgan	26	wr	5	5	0	0	0	0		0.0	0.0	20	15	220	14.7	1	30	3.0	44.0	75.0%	15	14.7	220	1	0
46	Delanie Walker	27	te	15	7	3	5	0	14	1.7	0.3	0.2	35	19	198	10.4	3	29	1.3	13.2	54.3%	22	9.2	203	3	1
32	Kendall Hunter	23	rb	16	1	112	473	2	44	4.2	29.6	7.0	26	16	195	12.2	0	44	1.0	12.2	61.5%	128	5.2	668	2	1
17	Braylon Edwards	28	wr	9	5	0	0	0	0		0.0	0.0	34	15	181	12.1	0	24	1.7	20.1	44.1%	15	12.1	181	0

 

This is Smith's best year in SF... Crabtree had more targets than Davis did.

 

 

here is Pre-Tyreek Hill's amazing rookie season...  Maclin again, more targets

 

No.	Player	Age	Pos	G	GS	Att	Yds	TD	Lng	Y/A	Y/G	A/G	Tgt	Rec	Yds ▼	Y/R	TD	Lng	R/G	Y/G	Ctch%	Touch	Y/Tch	YScm	RRTD	Fmb
19	Jeremy Maclin	27	WR	15	15	3	14	0	18	4.7	0.9	0.2	124	87	1088	12.5	8	61	5.8	72.5	70.2%	90	12.2	1102	8	2
87	Travis Kelce*	26	TE	16	16	0	0	0	0		0.0	0.0	103	72	875	12.2	5	42	4.5	54.7	69.9%	72	12.2	875	5	2
12	Albert Wilson	23	WR	14	12	5	26	0	8	5.2	1.9	0.4	57	35	451	12.9	2	44	2.5	32.2	61.4%	40	11.9	477	2	0
35	Charcandrick West	24	RB	15	9	160	634	4	38	4.0	42.3	10.7	34	20	214	10.7	1	80	1.3	14.3	58.8%	180	4.7	848	5	1
17	Chris Conley	23	wr	16	5	0	0	0	0		0.0	0.0	31	17	199	11.7	1	44	1.1	12.4	54.8%	17	11.7	199	1	0
25	Jamaal Charles	29	rb	5	5	71	364	4	34	5.1	72.8	14.2	29	21	177	8.4	1	26	4.2	35.4	72.4%	92	5.9	541	5	2
13	De'Anthony Thomas	22	wr	10	1	9	34	1	13	3.8	3.4	0.9	25	17	140	8.2	1	36	1.7	14.0	68.0%	26	6.7	174	2	2
81	Jason Avant	32	wr	16	1	0	0	0	0		0.0	0.0	24	15	119	7.9	0	20	0.9	7.4	62.5%	15	7.9	119	0

 

Not by much.  I'll grant you this, however.

 

1 hour ago, OVCChairman said:

I think Smith may be labeled as a dink and dunk type guy, because he hasnt had a choice.  A first round WR could SERIOUSLY open up this offense if it's the right guy.  

 

Even when he has receivers, Alex's air yards is among the lowest in the league. So don't expect the offense to open up much even with elite talent. Alex is very much a dink and dunk guy.

[OVCChairman]

8 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

There is actually a good reason for this. WR's are probably the hardest to predict coming out of College.

 

 

Very much so.. which makes my point.  Using 1 first round pick in 16 years on a WR and him 'missing' doesn't mean this team can't do it.  Having 1 first round pick not live up to the hope can't be enough of a metric to judge this team on their ability to evaluate WRs coming out of college.. Looking at their 1st round picks over the last 10 years, I'd actually say we've done relatively well, so If we were to take a WR in the first round, I'd have some confidence.  

 

 

8 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

Actually, I'll disagree about Jay. Jay runs his offense through WR mostly. You saw that in Cincy and when he had them here. It's only with a complete lack of WR talent than it goes inside.

 

 

So having a top rate WR on the outside could help us gameplan to push the ball to the edges more? 

 

8 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

Rather large assumption. Anything to back that up?

 

 

You're right... that's an observation of mine when I look at how much they were involved, as well as how much his RBs were in the pass game.  He had Jamaal Chaarles who was another 'best at his position' type talent.  Looking at Gruden's offense, we're both saying that the gameplan appears to be run through Reed / Thompson, but none of us have anything to truly back it up other than deducing the eyeball test with different stat categories.  In both of those tables I shared, he had a WR who had more targets than a TE, but as you said.. the TE wasn't far behind.  If the offense was dedicated to the ball going through the WRs, I doubt there would be such a drop to the no. 2 WR on both teams.  Do i have any definitive idea of what the gameplan was... no I dont.   

 

9 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

Not by much.  I'll grant you this, however.

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

Even when he has receivers, Alex's air yards is among the lowest in the league. So don't expect the offense to open up much even with elite talent. Alex is very much a dink and dunk guy.

 

 

I can't see the future, but I also see the teams Alex has had and the vast majority of his talent has been in the middle of the field.... until he got Tyreek Hill.  He may be a dink and dunk guy, but a 1st round WR is likely meant to be a gamebreaker.  Doc isn't living up to that, but that doesn't mean we give up trying... having a top tier talent at WR means the safeties move, it means he can take a slant 75 yards to the house, it means we have another mismatch outside.  Just because we don't go there now, doesn't mean we cant.   

 

I will say I want a LG more in the 1st, but if there isn't a LG there worth a 1st round pick, and there's a WR that is... I'd say take that WR.    

[Morneblade]

19 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

Very much so.. which makes my point.  Using 1 first round pick in 16 years on a WR and him 'missing' doesn't mean this team can't do it.  Having 1 first round pick not live up to the hope can't be enough of a metric to judge this team on their ability to evaluate WRs coming out of college.. Looking at their 1st round picks over the last 10 years, I'd actually say we've done relatively well, so If we were to take a WR in the first round, I'd have some confidence.  

 

 

 

So having a top rate WR on the outside could help us gameplan to push the ball to the edges more? 

 

Maybe, but I doubt it. And this goes back to Alex Smith. He's not that guy. He's much more comfortable with shorter, easier passes.

 

19 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

  Looking at Gruden's offense, we're both saying that the gameplan appears to be run through Reed / Thompson, but none of us have anything to truly back it up other than deducing the eyeball test with different stat categories.  In both of those tables I shared, he had a WR who had more targets than a TE, but as you said.. the TE wasn't far behind.  If the offense was dedicated to the ball going through the WRs, I doubt there would be such a drop to the no. 2 WR on both teams.  Do i have any definitive idea of what the gameplan was... no I dont.   

 

 

 

Well, that is also not really true. Gruden himself has said that the Offense right now runs through Jordan Reed. He was quite clear when he said that in the offseason. But in 2016, when we had 2 real WR's, Garcon and DJax were 1st and 2nd in targets. Crowder was a very close 3rd and Reed was 4th. In 2015 Reed was the top targeted WR/TE, with DJax being injured. And in 2014 it was Garcon and DJax being 1 and 2 again, with Andre Roberts being 3rd. Going back to Cincy, it was A.J Green and Jerome Simpson being 1 and 2 in 2011. 2010 it was Owens and Chad Johnson, and in 2009 it was Johnson and Andre Caldwell, with our own Laveranues Coles 3rd. As a OC and HC, it's markedly true that Jay runs the passing offense through his receivers, when he has them.

 

 

19 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

I can't see the future, but I also see the teams Alex has had and the vast majority of his talent has been in the middle of the field.... until he got Tyreek Hill.  He may be a dink and dunk guy, but a 1st round WR is likely meant to be a gamebreaker.  Doc isn't living up to that, but that doesn't mean we give up trying... having a top tier talent at WR means the safeties move, it means he can take a slant 75 yards to the house, it means we have another mismatch outside.  Just because we don't go there now, doesn't mean we cant.   

 

I will say I want a LG more in the 1st, but if there isn't a LG there worth a 1st round pick, and there's a WR that is... I'd say take that WR.    

 

If your looking for guys to take slants and going 90 yards, sure. Alex will do that. If you're looking for a guy to push downfield, I respectfully disagree. Alex won't do much of that. And that's the big issue. Do you invest a lot in a position that isn't going to be the focal point? Because even if you draft 2 really good WR's the defense knows that Alex is not going to be trying to beat them deep often, so you automatically loose some of the fear or that because of the QB tendencies.

[JSSkinz]

Whoops, free agent thread.

Edited September 28, 2018 by JSSkinz

[zoony]

Just watching this Thursday night game and really getting a feel for how dreadful the redskins WR corps is.  Not one weapon.  Doctson was a complete waste of a first round pick

 

Great or even good all all have the same trait,,, explosiveness.  Explosive out of breaks or with the ball or down the sidelines.  Doctson looks like he is jogging out there

[max21]

2 hours ago, zoony said:

Just watching this Thursday night game and really getting a feel for how dreadful the redskins WE corps is.  Not one weapon.  Doctson was a complete waste of a first round pick

 

Great or even good all all have the same trait,,, explosiveness.  Explosive out of breaks or with the ball or down the sidelines.  Doctson looks like he is jogging out there

Seriously, Kupp a 3rd round pick is lightyears ahead of Doctson. All those guys are elusive, I feel like Doctson just wants to fall down.

[OVCChairman]

15 hours ago, Morneblade said:

 

Maybe, but I doubt it. And this goes back to Alex Smith. He's not that guy. He's much more comfortable with shorter, easier passes.

 

 

Well, that is also not really true. Gruden himself has said that the Offense right now runs through Jordan Reed. He was quite clear when he said that in the offseason. But in 2016, when we had 2 real WR's, Garcon and DJax were 1st and 2nd in targets. Crowder was a very close 3rd and Reed was 4th. In 2015 Reed was the top targeted WR/TE, with DJax being injured. And in 2014 it was Garcon and DJax being 1 and 2 again, with Andre Roberts being 3rd. Going back to Cincy, it was A.J Green and Jerome Simpson being 1 and 2 in 2011. 2010 it was Owens and Chad Johnson, and in 2009 it was Johnson and Andre Caldwell, with our own Laveranues Coles 3rd. As a OC and HC, it's markedly true that Jay runs the passing offense through his receivers, when he has them.

 

 

 

If your looking for guys to take slants and going 90 yards, sure. Alex will do that. If you're looking for a guy to push downfield, I respectfully disagree. Alex won't do much of that. And that's the big issue. Do you invest a lot in a position that isn't going to be the focal point? Because even if you draft 2 really good WR's the defense knows that Alex is not going to be trying to beat them deep often, so you automatically loose some of the fear or that because of the QB tendencies.

 

 

I actually think we're not that far off in the conversation... We're just kind of going back and forth with it.  

 

Smith may not be the guy who goes Daunte Culpepper, but, imho, him and Jay have both shown that they can, and will, go outside when the talent is there.... our problem... the talent isnt out there.  Richardson looks like he's going to be a quality starter, but I don't think he'll ever have 10 catch in a game type dominance.  Doc appeared to have it physically, but for whatever reason (they've all been mentioned) he's just not getting the ball.  I don't think it's 100% on him, but clearly Gruden, and Alex for that matter, don't have the confidence in him.  

 

That is what makes me wondering about using a 1st rounder on a WR if the right guy is there.  Like i've said before, if the right LG is there... i take him 10 times out of 10... and clearly there are other circumstances that someone falls unexpectedly at another position that you simply can't pass up... but if Calvin Johnson, Dez Bryant, or T.O. is there in the 1st... it would be hard to pass up.  

 

Just doing quick research, it looks like A.J. Brown may be the only guy worth it to me.  Theres a couple other guys who have 1st round grades, but they're cut from the same mold as Doc.  More physical, less separation.  I don't want us to use a 1st on a WR for the sake of drafting a WR in the 1st... but if there is a player worth that pick... I'd be all for it.  

[RandyHolt]

Anyone care to describe Alex Smith's arm, or throwing motion.... more specifically, what about him makes him unable or unwilling to utilize outside receivers?   Does he have a weak arm, a long slow delivery, poor mechanics - the book is written on him, right? Or so we thought, before a little downfield breakout last year that had us drooling a bit.  Has he never had more than 1 year of viable weapons at WR, or is he maybe guy shy to throw outside after some pick 6's...

 

Google has some answers but feel like the web is otherwise lacking proper bios and grades on all things NFL throwing.

 

Arm strength is generally regarded as good enough for Reid’s offense, but not elite. Is a locked-front-leg thrower, which sometimes affects his ball placement, particularly on downfield throws. Sometimes misses open shots downfield due to his risk-averse nature

 

In reference to previous discussions about why we dont see obvious audibles thus far:   "Possesses an outstanding memory and has no problem reciting Andy Reid’s wordy playcalls. Is adept at reading defenses pre-snap and audibling out of bad plays. Has earned Reid’s trust and has been given more pre-snap responsibility than Reid is accustomed to.

 

Oh, and Aldrick Robinson, in the news.... another WR we developed.

 

Edited September 28, 2018 by RandyHolt

[OVCChairman]

21 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Anyone care to describe Alex Smith's arm, or throwing motion.... more specifically, what about him makes him unable or unwilling to utilize outside receivers?   Does he have a weak arm, a long slow delivery, poor mechanics - the book is written on him, right? Or so we thought, before a little downfield breakout last year that had has drooling a bit.  Has he never had more than 1 year of viable weapons at WR, or is he maybe guy shy to throw outside after some pick 6's...

 

Google has some answers but feel like the web is otherwise lacking proper bios and grades on all things NFL throwing.

 

Arm strength is generally regarded as good enough for Reid’s offense, but not elite. Is a locked-front-leg thrower, which sometimes affects his ball placement, particularly on downfield throws. Sometimes misses open shots downfield due to his risk-averse nature

 

In reference to previous discussions about why we dont see obvious audibles thus far:   "Possesses an outstanding memory and has no problem reciting Andy Reid’s wordy playcalls. Is adept at reading defenses pre-snap and audibling out of bad plays. Has earned Reid’s trust and has been given more pre-snap responsibility than Reid is accustomed to.

 

Oh, and Aldrick Robinson, in the news.... another WR we developed.

 

 

I honestly think he's been passive about going outside because of the lack of weapons.  Like I said in previous posts, it looked like he had 1 viable weapon outside most of the time, and that WR generally got over 100 targets and 1000 yards.  Not far behind was his TE who for all 3 teams hes been on now, has been very talented.  When he's had weapons outside, he's gotten production outside.  

 

This is his team from the year he went without throwing a single TD to a WR.... there was NOTHING on the outside... I had high hopes for Bowe but he flamed out quick.  He gets crushed for that season.. but where was he supposed to go with the ball with that team? 

 

87	Travis Kelce	25	TE	16	11	0	0	0	0		0.0	0.0	87	67	862	12.9	5	34	4.2	53.9	77.0%	67	12.9	862	5	4
82	Dwayne Bowe	30	WR	15	15	0	0	0	0		0.0	0.0	95	60	754	12.6	0	37	4.0	50.3	63.2%	60	12.6	754	0	2
25	Jamaal Charles*	28	RB	15	15	206	1033	9	63	5.0	68.9	13.7	59	40	291	7.3	5	30	2.7	19.4	67.8%	246	5.4	1324	14	5
12	Albert Wilson	22	wr	12	2	0	0	0	0		0.0	0.0	28	16	260	16.3	0	48	1.3	21.7	57.1%	16	16.3	260	0	0
80	Anthony Fasano	30	TE	15	13	0	0	0	0		0.0	0.0	36	25	226	9.0	4	22	1.7	15.1	69.4%	25	9.0	226	4	0
17	Donnie Avery	30	wr	6	3	0	0	0	0		0.0	0.0	26	15	176	11.7	0	27	2.5	29.3	57.7%	15	11.7	176	0	1
13	De'Anthony Thomas	21	wr	12	3	14	113	1	26	8.1	9.4	1.2	31	23	156	6.8	0	30	1.9	13.0	74.2%	37	7.3	269	1	0
81	Jason Avant	31		5	0	0	0	0	0		0.0	0.0	22	13	152	11.7	0	41	2.6	30.4	59.1%	13	11.7	152	0	0
34	Knile Davis	23	rb	16	1	134	463	6	48	3.5	28.9	8.4	25	16	147	9.2	1	70	1.0	9.2	64.0%	150	4.1	610	7	4
88	Junior Hemingway	26	wr	14	1	0	0	0	0		0.0	0.0	22	12	108	9.0	0	17	0.9	7.7	54.5%	12	9.0	108	0	0
15	A.J. Jenkins	25	wr	9	2	2	-2	0	0	-1.0	-0.2	0.2	15	9	93	10.3	0	27	1.0	10.3	60.0%	11	8.3	91	0	1
42	Anthony Sherman	26	fb	16	6	2	8	0	4	4.0	0.5	0.1	14	10	71	7.1	1	24	0.6	4.4	71.4%	12	6.6	79	1	0
22	Joe McKnight	26		2	0	1	3	0	3	3.0	1.5	0.5	7	6	64	10.7	2	26	3.0	32.0	85.7%	7	9.6	67	2	0
85	Frankie Hammond	24	wr	16	3	0	0	0	0		0.0	0.0	11	4	45	11.3	0	22	0.3	2.8	36.4%	4	11.3	45	0	0

 

 

[Morneblade]

2 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

I actually think we're not that far off in the conversation... We're just kind of going back and forth with it.  

 

Smith may not be the guy who goes Daunte Culpepper, but, imho, him and Jay have both shown that they can, and will, go outside when the talent is there.... our problem... the talent isnt out there.  Richardson looks like he's going to be a quality starter, but I don't think he'll ever have 10 catch in a game type dominance.  Doc appeared to have it physically, but for whatever reason (they've all been mentioned) he's just not getting the ball.  I don't think it's 100% on him, but clearly Gruden, and Alex for that matter, don't have the confidence in him.  

 

That is what makes me wondering about using a 1st rounder on a WR if the right guy is there.  Like i've said before, if the right LG is there... i take him 10 times out of 10... and clearly there are other circumstances that someone falls unexpectedly at another position that you simply can't pass up... but if Calvin Johnson, Dez Bryant, or T.O. is there in the 1st... it would be hard to pass up.  

 

Just doing quick research, it looks like A.J. Brown may be the only guy worth it to me.  Theres a couple other guys who have 1st round grades, but they're cut from the same mold as Doc.  More physical, less separation.  I don't want us to use a 1st on a WR for the sake of drafting a WR in the 1st... but if there is a player worth that pick... I'd be all for it.  

 

I think we're further apart than you think.

 

I think that we both agree that Gruden's offense does run through WR's when he has them.

 

But, we disagree on Alex. Now, you have some stats on some of WR's having a the most targets on the team, and I'm not going to debate that.

 

But did he actually stretch the field with them? Or were they short passes and screens?

 

Historically, they've been short passes. So IMO going and getting a deep threat WR, or even someone like Stephon Diggs is not going to equal a explosion in mid to deep passing. It's still going to be dump offs and when the WR is involved 4-6 passes, with a sprinkling of 10-12 yard ones. And a deep shot or 2 if the guy is wide open or if he has been hearing ir from the coach. But that is not what he feels comfortable doing.

[Sandy Monk]

1 hour ago, RandyHolt said:

Anyone care to describe Alex Smith's arm, or throwing motion.... more specifically, what about him makes him unable or unwilling to utilize outside receivers?   Does he have a weak arm, a long slow delivery, poor mechanics - the book is written on him, right? Or so we thought, before a little downfield breakout last year that had has drooling a bit.  Has he never had more than 1 year of viable weapons at WR, or is he maybe guy shy to throw outside after some pick 6's...

 

 

Looks to me like OVCChairman knocked this one out of the park.

 

Alex's arm pre-2007 was more potent than post-shoulder injury 07-08. I think that botched shoulder surgery left him weaker, but his arm is still above average (better than noodle). 

 

Alex's throwing motion is not ideal as in Marino quick release, but it's not awful either. 

 

He has typically been accurate on deep passes, but throws so few of them, historically speaking. So, why? Like OVC offered, he utilizes the strengths of his personnel. He has never really had good pass protecting OLs. The best he's had was his best 1.5 years of 2012 and 2017.

 

He hasn't really had aggressive HCs, and while Andy Reid likes to pass a lot, much of it is in the typical WCO short stuff to get YAC. Prior to 2017, Andy has had weak pass pro OLs and lousy WRs. Alex had success with Maclin, but Maclin's injuries caught up with him. 

 

tl;dr

- Alex flows through strength of team, and philosophy of HC.

- Alex has had underwhelming quality of WRs since TY Hill, yet has had good RBs and TEs.

- Alex's arm is good enough but not elite.

- Alex will eschew personal stats for team wins every time, and seems to enjoy the grind more than blind chucking. 

[OVCChairman]

33 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

I think we're further apart than you think.

 

I think that we both agree that Gruden's offense does run through WR's when he has them.

 

But, we disagree on Alex. Now, you have some stats on some of WR's having a the most targets on the team, and I'm not going to debate that.

 

But did he actually stretch the field with them? Or were they short passes and screens?

 

Historically, they've been short passes. So IMO going and getting a deep threat WR, or even someone like Stephon Diggs is not going to equal a explosion in mid to deep passing. It's still going to be dump offs and when the WR is involved 4-6 passes, with a sprinkling of 10-12 yard ones. And a deep shot or 2 if the guy is wide open or if he has been hearing ir from the coach. But that is not what he feels comfortable doing.

 

 

But I'm not ever meaning that he's going to be tops in the league at air yards.  I don't want or need him to be.  I think with a viable weapon outside, the offense opens up because it's less personnel between the hashmarks.  I never said I expected, or thought he would ever push the ball downfield... I just said that if he had weapons, the offense could have more focus outside.  I would have ZERO issue with us utilizing more WR screens, slants, digs, or out routes.  It opens up everything including the run game.  Make the safeties pay attention to the guys outside the numbers.  I used to LOVE seeing Moss do the wr screen... we don't have that. 

I never mentioned deep threat... I said game breaking, even pointed out the idea of a guy taking a slant and going the distance.  I would use a 1st round pick on a guy who could be that.  He doesn't have to be D.Jax.... In fact I'd rather have T. Hill.  If we can find him in the 5th like KC did... GREAT.  Use the 1st round pick elsewhere, but that's not as easy as we'd all like it to be.  1st round talent is viewed as 1st round because it's one of the 32 best players coming out of college.  If 1 of those 32 players is a WR who fits, I think we need to take him, and not get caught up on the idea that we aren't good at evaluating WR talent.  I think Alex looks outside more... if he's got a weapon out there, and his track record shows that.  Like @Sandy Monk said... He utilizes the talent he has.  Chicken or egg debate.  Is it him as a QB or the options he had out there weren't good enough to have an impact.  When he had the weapon, he used it. 

 

Again, I don't think were talking different languages..... 

[Different_Cat]

As others have said, the odds of picking a 1st round WR who actually plays to 1st round standards are long.  That's why I'd prefer that the team select a couple mid rounders every year, or a mid rounder and third day WR. 

[zoony]

Did the receivers form an LLC, or did the OP forget an S in the thread title?

 

10 minutes ago, Different_Cat said:

As others have said, the odds of picking a 1st round WR who actually plays to 1st round standards are long.  That's why I'd prefer that the team select a couple mid rounders every year, or a mid rounder and third day WR. 

 

Feels like WR is one of those positions where you need to draft speed guys who are projects in the middle rounds, and be ultra agressive in free agency

 

Lets be clear, getting open in the NCAA and getting open in the NFL are two completely different things.  The Doctson pick pisses me off because we knew he was slow, why did anyone think he would be able to get open against an NFL defense?  He ran a 4.5 at the combine but his tape said, and continues to say, otherwise.  Maybe he could convert to TE at some point

[zoony]

One last point with regard to WRs, i would weigh 3 cone drill time quite a bit more than 40 time when evaluating WR talent.  Any statistical analysis been done here with 3 cone times vs nfl success?

 

For instance, cooper kupp had the fastest 3 cone drill of the combine.  You can see it on the field, he is explosive in and out of breaks.  He had a poor 40 time.  Appears to not matter.

[Sandy Monk]

12 minutes ago, zoony said:

Maybe he could convert to TE at some point

 

I wouldn't waste the time. Josh is a stick figure that lacks strong hands, and already puts poor effort into blocking. 

 

May as well develop Cam Sims or Cobbs Jr, if you want to eventually shift a WR to TE. 

[bird_1972]

1 hour ago, Sandy Monk said:

May as well develop Cam Sims or Cobbs Jr, if you want to eventually shift a WR to TE. 

 

Or perhaps just develop either of those two guys to be better WRs.

[RandyHolt]

I wonder what the average draft position is of the top rated X number of current fantasy WRs.  Say 2 WRs per team - maybe top 50.  I will blindly guess late 2nd early 3rd.  I think it will show that we shouldn't need to use firsts on WRs to develop starters in house.

 

Conversely, what is the fail rate of 1st round WRs. How to define failure may not be easy. Not starting by year 3 seems reasonable since a first carries such high expectations.

Edited September 28, 2018 by RandyHolt

[OVCChairman]

@RandyHolt  Fantasy draft or NFL draft?   

 

I guess it's not necessary to look WR in the 1st round.  I just suggested it because I want a game breaking type player, and the 1st round, generally speaking, is where top talent is.  We simply have not drafted WRs early, or well for that matter.  I don't want to hold this team accountable for the mistakes of the past front offices when evaluating player talent, because it would appear we've shifted our focus into a much better philosophy.  Build from the inside out.  We've got, what looks to be, a very solid interior now with seeming 1 hole remaining.  Now we may have the flexibility to take a true game breaking type player at the top of the draft.  Players can be found all over the draft, that's clear, but the odds of getting a boom type player in the 1st round is much better than in the 3rd.  Again, I don't want to take just ANY 1st round WR, and maybe this isn't the draft to go high because I'm not seeing anyone up there that TRULY is what i'm looking for.  

 

You guys are 100% correct, We can probably find that guy a little later, but like I said, we can start to really look at the WR in the position in the draft, and, IMHO, a top talent WR can probably change how we view our offense.  

[skinsmania123]

On 9/27/2018 at 9:15 PM, zoony said:

Just watching this Thursday night game and really getting a feel for how dreadful the redskins WR corps is.  Not one weapon.  Doctson was a complete waste of a first round pick

 

Great or even good all all have the same trait,,, explosiveness.  Explosive out of breaks or with the ball or down the sidelines.  Doctson looks like he is jogging out there

I thought about this a bit and I agree with so many of your perspectives on all this,  but I am just not confident that Alex is really capable of working with a receiver like Doctson or even Richardson.  His career is just intermediate passes, and RPO, etc.   Not consistently going down field.  We do not know the pressure Alex may have been put under to go long to Hill. I mean how do you not with a player that is pure lightening.  I don't even know what we have here to be frank.

 

 Someone on here, I do not remember who, suggested Doctson may flourish in another system or with another QB, who likes to go downfield and just lets it fly.  Maybe a Rodgers, or Goff.   If I were Doctson I might be jogging out there too. You got to keep players involved.  They are not all leaders but you also have to get the best out of them.  That is the coaches job or leaders in the locker room. Not just use them as decoys.  And since he drew two PI's against the Packers he is certainly keeping up enough, getting enough separation or being held up.  I don't know yet wha we have.  And honestly it is Gruden's responsibility to mix it up, keep the long ball in play and encourage Smith to do it.  

 

I do not see us using Richardson or Doctson this year in a way they could flourish.  And maybe even Crowder.  So they are definitely going to  go more to Reed and Davis after the break I think. 

 

  And one other thing, yeah just keep running AP - possibly into into the ground.....LOL!  The guy is already little banged up here in week 4.  I am not a huge Gruden fan but I don't hate him as a couch either.    But he has as much creativity and fluidness to his calls as a rock.    This is a talented roster but it is how you use it IMO.

[Sandy Monk]

Chucking the ball up to Doctson just feels lazy.

 

Low percentage deep bombs to low percentage hands catcher, just because too lazy to matriculate the ball downfield. I don't see a great reason in Doctson to lessen the targets to better players. Not getting the ball to Reed, CT, and lesser extent PR, VD, and Crowder... just to chuck stuff to Doctson? Just not interested. 

 

Let's look at the targets so far through the 3 games:

 

CT = 23 

Reed = 20

Richardson = 14

Doctson = 13

Crowder = 12

AD = 6

VD = 4

 

We know some of CT's was inflated by the 4th Q checkdowns instead of chucking deep versus Indy's Prevent coverage. Once Reed fumbled, the game was over. Right or wrong, Alex Smith said **** it, I'm not chucking up INTs on a prayer. 

 

Looks to me like by going by those proven deserving? Doctson gets more targets than he should. VD gets too few. 

 

I agree with one thing though, Doctson seems like he's an awful fit in DC.. for this QB and this scheme. He needs to be with a QB and scheme like Carolina. Air Coryell and chuck it, bro! Or maybe we're all just overthinking this, and jumping the gun on his season's accomplishments to come. 

 

 

 

 

[Morneblade]

1 hour ago, Sandy Monk said:

Chucking the ball up to Doctson just feels lazy.

 

Low percentage deep bombs to low percentage hands catcher, just because too lazy to matriculate the ball downfield. I don't see a great reason in Doctson to lessen the targets to better players. Not getting the ball to Reed, CT, and lesser extent PR, VD, and Crowder... just to chuck stuff to Doctson? Just not interested. 

 

Let's look at the targets so far through the 3 games:

 

CT = 23 

Reed = 20

Richardson = 14

Doctson = 13

Crowder = 12

AD = 6

VD = 4

 

We know some of CT's was inflated by the 4th Q checkdowns instead of chucking deep versus Indy's Prevent coverage. Once Reed fumbled, the game was over. Right or wrong, Alex Smith said **** it, I'm not chucking up INTs on a prayer. 

 

Looks to me like by going by those proven deserving? Doctson gets more targets than he should. VD gets too few. 

 

I agree with one thing though, Doctson seems like he's an awful fit in DC.. for this QB and this scheme. He needs to be with a QB and scheme like Carolina. Air Coryell and chuck it, bro! Or maybe we're all just overthinking this, and jumping the gun on his season's accomplishments to come. 

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly, I think you're correct. Doctson is a bad fit.

 

If you believe all the stuff that D. Hall says about his route running is quite good, (which I don't) and that he has strong hands (which I do agree with, looking at some tape), Doctson should be able to be effective. But one issue that Hall pointed it is that Doctson hears "footsteps"

 

If you have a guy that can't separate and doesn't like close contact, he's not going to do well with a guy that likes to put a ball on the receiver.

 

A guy like Kirk takes shots, and takes chances. Doctson was the 2nd most targeted guy here last year, even if Doctson's catch % is below bust level (45%)

He's still giving Treadwell in Minny a chance, even though Treadwell has dropped a ton of balls and created a couple of int's.

 

Smith isn't going to do that and I'm honestly glad he won't.

 

I don't think Smith is going to trust Doctson to be reliable, and pass him up or take positive yards scrambling.

Edited September 29, 2018 by Morneblade

[skinny21]

At this point, I could see them using Doctson as a change up instead.  Defense stifling the O?  Put Doctson in and see what happens.  Down two scores later in the game?  Throw him in there and throw it to him if he’s singled (or open).  

 

I do believe there are, perhaps, extenuating circumstances to the lack of production so far, that maybe we’re a tad bit harder on him than is warranted.  But at the same time, I think it’s time to reduce his role and see if different personnel works better.  I also think their may be times that he’s a better matchup than whoever takes snaps from him (Vernon, Sprinkle, Harris, etc.). 

 

With all of that said... if the run game is still producing, and guys are finding room in the middle, do you still make that change?  I don’t know.  He’s on the proverbial hot seat, for sure, but I’m not going to be ticked off if he’s starting vs NO.