twa Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Springfield said: Its 100% skin color. Get 3 black guys dressed like the people in the above post and you’ve got SWAT showing up. there were more than three there.....one had a black guns matter shirt 😀 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 1 hour ago, TheGreatBuzz said: I disagree. I saw more than a few people of darker skin walking around armed up. Yeah but they were surrounded by white people, er, good guys with guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Seems like a good time to repost this. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 i'm going to join @PleaseBlitz in rolling my eyes about how they deserve credit for not shooting people or trashing richmond. that should be the expectation, not an unexpected positive outcome to be lauded for. and I'm all for gun rights. I would like some strong laws about it, but I'm definitely a supporter of the 2nd amendment (even if not exactly the way it's currently being enforced...) but I do not like people bringing guns to these things. you can protest without bringing your guns, and you can do so without scaring everyone around you. the older I grow the more I realize most 'pro-2nd amendment' people are actually just really stupid people. it's hard to associate with someone who thinks the best way to get what they want is to march around with guns scaring people. not to mention the association/crossover with people like RWDS, militias, and neo-nazi groups. i start looking around at people who make up some of these groups i've grown up identifying with, and realize I'm not like them; I don't want to be like them; There's something wrong with them; They're potentially a danger to the rest of us; And there's little, and in fact often nothing, to respect about them. They're not particularly smart, their understanding of history, the laws, and the constitution is usually 1st grade level (which is ironic since the foundation of their whole political identity is the 2nd amendment), and they think it's perfectly ok to walk around with guns with the intention of scaring people for political gain (and pretending they aren't scaring people intentionally is dumb, they know what they're doing there) 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmirOfShmo Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 13 minutes ago, tshile said: i'm going to join @PleaseBlitz in rolling my eyes about how they deserve credit for not shooting people or trashing richmond. I'm always reminded of one of my favorite Chris Rock sets - NSFW - 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Democrats reject bills to further relax gun laws one day after pro-gun rally https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/democrats-reject-bills-to-expand-firearms-rights-one-day-after-huge-gun-rights-rally/2020/01/21/e2f64732-3c57-11ea-baca-eb7ace0a3455_story.html Quote A subcommittee controlled by Democrats rejected a raft of Republican-sponsored bills to loosen restrictions on firearms Tuesday, one day after a major gun-rights rally and over the passionate objections of a man who lost his wife in last year's mass shooting in Virginia Beach. Among the defeated bills was one that would have allowed Virginians to carry concealed weapons without a permit, and another allowing them to bring firearms into places of worship. “I think what we saw today is this is a new day in Virginia,” said Del. Jeffrey M. Bourne (D-Richmond), chairman of the firearms subcommittee of the House Public Safety Committee. “We’re going to go beyond thoughts and prayers. We’re going to give voters laws that will make Virginia safer.” A day earlier, thousands of people flocked to the Capitol for a gun rights rally that drew militia groups from across the country. Some of the rallygoers came to Tuesday’s meeting dressed in t-shirts and other attire proclaiming their cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RansomthePasserby Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 13 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said: I do think we need to acknowledge how impressive it is that many idiots showed up with guns in one place and no one was hurt. I read there was only one arrest and the place wasn't trashed when they left. I guess even idiots can impress sometimes. If I’m reading the sequence of events correctly on the whole gun rally thing, it seems the gun rally was organized in response to Virginia bill SB16 proposed by the state senate in November. I’m guessing because this rally was started due to a real potential law that would affect people other than the tiki torch toting Nazi types, there was a broader representation of saner people attending this rally vs. purely alt right organized rallies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 32 minutes ago, RansomthePasserby said: If I’m reading the sequence of events correctly on the whole gun rally thing, it seems the gun rally was organized in response to Virginia bill SB16 proposed by the state senate in November. I’m guessing because this rally was started due to a real potential law that would affect people other than the tiki torch toting Nazi types, there was a broader representation of saner people attending this rally vs. purely alt right organized rallies. But it still shows that a whole lot of “good guys with guns” as they’d like to be thought of as can congregate in an area without shooting people, the protests can happen with people (while armed) peacefully without trashing and burning the city, and then they can clean up and go home. Not sure this is what the gun control crowd had planned for. Yes, there was plenty of law enforcement but their numbers paled in comparison to the number of armed protestors. (This does not change my view that the majority of the protestors were Trump supporters and therefore am impressed they didn’t literally shoot themselves in the the foot.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 28 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said: But it still shows that a whole lot of “good guys with guns” as they’d like to be thought of as can congregate in an area without shooting people, the protests can happen with people (while armed) peacefully without trashing and burning the city, and then they can clean up and go home. Not sure this is what the gun control crowd had planned for. I would have thought the "gun control crowd" are aiming for a much, much higher standard. If a group of gun owners surrounded by law enforcement CAN'T get together without breaking the law then we've got an absolutely insurmountable problem as a society If there are, say, 150 million gun owners in the USA and 0.1% are unable to respect the law and are willing to be violent then we have 150,000 armed nut jobs. But we don't know which of the 150 million are willing to kill their fellow citizens. That's a serious threat to society if we have 150,000 unknown "terrorists" among us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RansomthePasserby Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 1 hour ago, TheGreatBuzz said: But it still shows that a whole lot of “good guys with guns” as they’d like to be thought of as can congregate in an area without shooting people, the protests can happen with people (while armed) peacefully without trashing and burning the city, and then they can clean up and go home. Not sure this is what the gun control crowd had planned for. Yes, there was plenty of law enforcement but their numbers paled in comparison to the number of armed protestors. (This does not change my view that the majority of the protestors were Trump supporters and therefore am impressed they didn’t literally shoot themselves in the the foot.) Haha! Nice. I think the vague wording of SB16 on the kinds of guns that would violate the law and the severity of the punishment for owning them drew out enough “normal” people that the fringe who would otherwise cause trouble were kept in check or weren’t able to get organized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 9 hours ago, Corcaigh said: I would have thought the "gun control crowd" are aiming for a much, much higher standard. If a group of gun owners surrounded by law enforcement CAN'T get together without breaking the law then we've got an absolutely insurmountable problem as a society Depends on how you define the "gun control crowd" I guess. I'm certainly for some changes but am also probably the most "pro-gun" person here. And lets be honest, the last few years have shown us that our expectations for people have been too high (or they are where they should be and people are just sinking lower). I think most people (myself included) were SURE that with that many armed people, a large percentage being idiots, there was going to end up with a lot of Nazi people shot or doing the shooting, mass chaos and hysteria, etc. The fact that didn't happen is impressive. To me, it even gave me a little bit of hope that people can be responsible with their guns out in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh8686 Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 Eh, but were these protestors really tested by counter-protesters? Didn't most of the pro gun-control people stay home and not counter-protest the event? So most of them basically just trotted around, got to look the part, and then went home right? I'm glad they didn't shoot anybody or do anything stupid, but this was an easy test for them and not enough for me to rely on their self-restraint in more contentious situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) I still can’t wrap my head around the idea that people should be praised for not shooting people when they showed up to protest new laws to introduce new gun ownership restrictions how dumb do you have to be to think the best way to show your fellow citizens that they should not further restrict a right because so many of you are responsible about exercising it, by showing up in a big group with a lot of guns and marching around scaring people? and then when people who are against you don’t bother to show up, you talk about how good you were for not shooting anyone?! That no one as there to”antagonize” you?! 😂 funny side note: while Virginia allows you to defend yourself with deadly force, it requires you to have made every effort to deescalate the situation first. im not a lawyer but I am finding it hard to understand how anyone could have shown up to that, and shot anyone do to counter protest conflicts, and be successful in claiming self defense. I don’t know how you could show up to that event with a gun, given the whole context of everything, and prove you made all reasonable efforts to deescalate. also, fun fact, I know a lot of gun owners in Virginia. I’ve yet to meet one (that isn’t law enforcement, a lawyer, or trainer in concealed carry and defensive shooting) that actually understands the Virginia law. most of them seem to think it has to do with people breaking into their house while they’re home. Which has nothing to do with the statute (outside of it being reasonable that you’re in fear of your life or the life of another, and you have no further ability to deescalate, but it being your house and then breaking into it alone mean nothing for deadly force in self defense in this state. Nothing) Edited January 22, 2020 by tshile 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 1 hour ago, tshile said: I still can’t wrap my head around the idea that people should be praised for not shooting people when they showed up to protest new laws to introduce new gun ownership restrictions Maybe it's just me and I have set my bar so low that I am impressed by things like this. Let's be honest, society hasn't really earned a high bar these last few years. 1 hour ago, tshile said: most of them seem to think it has to do with people breaking into their house while they’re home. Which has nothing to do with the statute (outside of it being reasonable that you’re in fear of your life or the life of another, and you have no further ability to deescalate, but it being your house and then breaking into it alone mean nothing for deadly force in self defense in this state. Nothing) Well Virginia does have a form of Castle Doctrine though it is vague and I imagine varies greatly case to case and judge to judge. However if someone breaks into my home and I am confronted by them while investigating the noise, unless I shoot them in the back as they run away, I feel like I could make a good case for being threatened. Though I have also been told many times "if you shoot someone who is breaking into your house, make sure there is only one person left living (me) to tell the story." Quote Virginia’s Castle Doctrine Under Virginia’s castle doctrine, you are allowed to protect your home — your castle —when you have sufficient reason to believe that the person or people entering will try to cause great bodily harm or death upon entering. You are not obligated to retreat. https://fishwickandassociates.com/blog/when-is-self-defense-in-virginia-a-crime/ ***If we want to continue discussing gun laws, we should probably move to the gun control thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted January 22, 2020 Author Share Posted January 22, 2020 Hard to tell if these were just LARPing morons or actually serious about carrying out what they say they were going to do: You can tell that they started fizzling out the closer they got to Jan 20th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, TheGreatBuzz said: Maybe it's just me and I have set my bar so low that I am impressed by things like this. Let's be honest, society hasn't really earned a high bar these last few years. I'm not impressed. This is the way it should be. Better, they should protest without their guns. The guns are there to incite fear and intimidate, nothing more. That needs to be recognized and they should be judged accordingly. The fact that other 'protests' devolve into riots, looting, lots of arrests, and lots of property damage sucks, but it doesn't mean these people deserve any sort of credit. It means those other people need to figure out how to be responsible adults (and I think these people have some work to do on that front to) Quote Well Virginia does have a form of Castle Doctrine though it is vague and I imagine varies greatly case to case and judge to judge. However if someone breaks into my home and I am confronted by them while investigating the noise, unless I shoot them in the back as they run away, I feel like I could make a good case for being threatened. Though I have also been told many times "if you shoot someone who is breaking into your house, make sure there is only one person left living (me) to tell the story." Kind of. I realize this is going to come across as semantics, but the the difference really matters if you're the one that pulled the trigger. Virginia only allows you to use deadly force when you're in fear of your life or great bodily harm; either to you or someone else. It does not matter where you are (Unless you are somewhere guns are not permitted...). It doesn't matter who you shoot (although I wouldn't recommend trying to argue self defense against any government official...) Being in your house or on your property, or the person you shot affecting you, is completely irrelevant. The legal justification for shooting a person in your house and shooting a random person on the street because they were beating up a random grandma with a pipe is the exact same. You don't have to know anyone, you don't have to be involved, and it doesn't matter where you are. You have to have feared for the life or great bodily harm of someone, and you have to have made every reasonable effort to deescalate. They're also using the word 'retreat' with no mention of deescalate. I'm not a lawyer. I think those words mean two different things and that you need to understand that. But, I'm not a lawyer. So maybe I'm wrong. The only place a house comes into play is that you're allowed a lot more leeway on the 'fear of your life or great bodily harm' when the person has broken into your house. But if you don't tell the police you were in fear for your life... or if you shoot the guy in the back... or if there's a broken TV on the ground because you shot him as he was walking around carrying your TV he was going to steal... you're going to prison. It doesn't matter if it was your house. And the saying I'm familiar with, with respect to VA's laws, is make sure you don't shoot them in the back... cause you'll never be able to argue self defense (successfully) when you shot the guy in the back... The other saying I've been told: Don't pull the trigger unless you're ready to spend the rest of your life in jail for it. Cause that might be what happens. There's a lot of people you gotta convince you were defending yourself. There's always a risk with that. Don't spend the rest of your life in jail regretting your decision, make sure you're comfortable with the possible consequences. Quote ***If we want to continue discussing gun laws, we should probably move to the gun control thread. Yeah, if it goes beyond this I suppose. Edited January 22, 2020 by tshile 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 That’s a good point. A real man wouldn’t need to bring a massive amount of guns to a protest to insure no counter protest happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 The irony of Monday's protest is how self-defeating it was. The majority of Virginia voters, due to a very long history of high-profile gun-involved murders (VT, VA Beach, the reporter that got shot in the head on live TV, etc), have had enough with living under the threat of gun violence. Bringing thousands of gun nuts with their assault rifles and "rooftop voter" t-shirts to the state in a big threat display is only going to reinforce the perception that Virginia needs less guns. Even if nobody actually got murdered shot at the event, the whole protest was conceived as a threat by gun nuts towards anyone seeking to enact gun control. That just makes people want more gun control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 I think some most of you are unwilling to give any credit to a group of people you don’t like or a group that does something (carries a firearm) you don’t like. The fact that 20,000 people (is that the reported number?) grouped in one area WITH GUNS and no one was hurt and only one person was arrested is amazing. You hear about worse happening at a state fair. Were these people carrying because they have tiny dicks and this makes them feel like men? Most of them, probably yes. But if you believe that to be true than you must admit it is even MORE impressive that no one got hurt. Were some of the people there just responsible gun owners exercising the rights under current law? Probably. And the fact that nothing arose requiring them to use a gun when surrounded by so many stupid people is also impressive. People can be doing things you consider stupid and still allow yourself to be pleasantly surprised by the result. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 14 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said: The irony of Monday's protest is how self-defeating it was. The majority of Virginia voters, due to a very long history of high-profile gun-involved murders (VT, VA Beach, the reporter that got shot in the head on live TV, etc), have had enough with living under the threat of gun violence. Bringing thousands of gun nuts with their assault rifles and "rooftop voter" t-shirts to the state in a big threat display is only going to reinforce the perception that Virginia needs less guns. Even if nobody actually got murdered shot at the event, the whole protest was conceived as a threat by gun nuts towards anyone seeking to enact gun control. That just makes people want more gun control. I don't know what the breakdown of the state is for people that feel this way vs those that don't. I really don't. I know both sides have very strong representation throughout the state. But one I thing I feel 100% comfortable thinking/saying: If all those people showed up with no guns, not wearing some of that garbage they wore, and protest... a lot more people would have been open to what they want, how they think about all of this, etc. Because that would have been a real protest with real people trying to exercise their civic duty and protest a right they think its important and one they think reads a certain way. And I think this state is very open to that sort of dialogue and situation, especially on that amendment. But they didn't do that. They showed up with guns and neo-nazi/RWDS/etc nonsense. They're just like the people that turn protesting for social justice into a riot with looting, people being arrested and hurt, chants about death to cops, etc... It doesn't matter if you were right, and it doesn't matter if you have a good argument, your behavior has betrayed your entire protest. Not a single person you were hoping to reach is receptive to you now. You scared people with guns (or burned down a city block and robbed unrelated local shop owners.) You ruined your own protest, idiots. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) @TheGreatBuzz If it is “amazing”, and you undoubtedly know an enormous amount more about gun ownership and people who own guns than me, then the current interpretation of the second amendment is a deadly threat to US society. if gun owners can’t typically be expected to behave responsibly in an environment where there is no tension, no threat, then the largely unrestricted gun ownership we have should be of enormous concern to every person who cares about a decent, safe society. Edited January 22, 2020 by Corcaigh 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 I'm willing to say: I'm surprised there wasn't an incident. Although I must add, my thought that there would be an incident was sort of based on there being counter protesters... I'm not willing to give credit to anyone other than the police and local government for this entire thing going off without an incident (And I give them credit with the understanding that it's entirely possible they didn't do anything special to prevent an incident, they just got lucky... which is not really giving a lot of credit, imo) we may all be playing semantics at this point, idk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 10 minutes ago, Corcaigh said: the second amendment is a deadly threat to US society. US society is a deadly threat to US society. I only need to look as far as Washington DC to see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) giving US society unfettered access to massive amounts of firepower won't help, and as we see almost daily, it doesn't, and in fact exacerbates the problems of "US Society", the inference being that our society is broken and incapable of being good, so weapons are necessary, whereas the overwhelming flood of weapons causes much of the problem. I must say i was very happy to see that this thread's page count stayed the same throughout the day. It is NOT a victory to say "SEE, no one shot anyone!" Here we see a guy carrying around a weapon that can bring down a jetliner. I don't give a **** what kind of hobby this guy likes, people have no business owning such a thing. yay, you had your play date and no one got hurt. I still think what i think, and none of you will change that by showing up dressed up as army men with toys that can kill hundreds of people if you hit a plane with it. I look at the pictures,, these guys in helmets and flak gear like this guy here.. this is for target shooting? Oh, wait right. The Overweight Brigade is going to stop the US military if it comes down to it. we have more guns in circulation than citizens. The NRA does it's level best to make sure everyone feels threatened, by slamming down their vague "it's a mental illness problem" for which their cure is more guns. it is absolutely insane. There is no reason that the 2nd can't be intact without some sanity applied to it. ~Bang Edited January 22, 2020 by Bang 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 that photo looks photoshopped i'm not saying it is, and i'm not putting any effort into finding out, just saying it raises flags and looks photoshopped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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