The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

[Tsailand]

1 hour ago, RedskinsMayne said:

But honestly, it doesn't matter what the rule is  now because we all remember the time there wasn't a rule about treating an uncapped year as an uncapped year until there was. 

 

There's your answer.  In my questionably legal scenario, the league would side with Kirk and the 49ers against the Redskins, because Mara will jump at the chance to screw over a division rival, and the other NFL owners (except Jerry) dislike Snyder.

 

(How ****ed up is it that our owner is best friends with the owner of the Cowboys, but has a death feud with the head coach of the 49ers? Nice priorities, Danny.)

[Skinsinparadise]

I don't know what to think about Bruce-Kirk.  But I do love the piling on directed at Bruce.  For one simple reason, I want Kirk back.  I somewhat agree with with Bram Weinstein said on air this week which is he's unsure if the FO really wants to give Kirk a LTC but they are likely boxed in regardless to follow through because of the growing public perception that it has to happen. 

 

Clearly, Scot's side wants it to come out that Bruce was the obstacle in getting a contract done a season ago.   We've heard mixed things about Scot on Kirk so I can't say confidently that Scot was on board with a LTC or maybe he was then wasn't after this season when the price tag was raised further or whatever.  At this point, I don't care I do like the fact that Bruce's feet is to the fire -- not from the stand point of taking sides but from the stand point is it doesn't matter at this point what Scot thinks, its all about what Bruce thinks. 

 

I lost one of my few remaining media alleys on the Kirk will get a LTC - Chris Cooley has now bailed on it and he thinks Kirk is back on a one year deal versus a long term contract. 

 

http://www.richmond.com/redskins-xtra/former-player-scot-mccloughan-felt-the-hate-from-redskins-president/article_15f2d7f4-1550-11e7-9196-339cd134af91.html

 

"He also talked to me about how he wanted to get Kirk Cousins signed, because he knew the longer you wait, this guy’s going to break the bank. And also the longer you wait, he may not want to come back. He may not want to come back, because you know what I mean, you’ve been negotiating for so long.

 

 

[Morneblade]

4 hours ago, RedskinsMayne said:

 

 

just because thats all all wikipedia says, doesn't mean they're aren't additional rules. I'm certain you are incorrect about this, especially since there are no practical examples of a team using the transition tag like you say, despite it giving a huge advantage to the team trying to sign away a player on the tag.

 

Check again. I have more than Wiki (which is we both agree is a weak source), which I notice you ignored. But tell me, what do you have?

 

If you want to prove me wrong, go look at the CBA, I even left a link for you.

 

7 hours ago, Morneblade said:

The best thing I could find was this, and it looks to be directly from the source. I can find nothing that says you can not change a contract in the first year. I will point out this is for restricted free agents, but it does include right of first refusal and how that works.

 

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2014/3/1/5459682/2014-nfl-free-agency-rules-regarding-restricted-free-agents

 

Excuse the legal jargon.

 

"(e) Principal Terms. For the purposes of this Article (and Article 10), the Principal Terms of an Offer Sheet shall include only:
(i) Salary, which shall consist only of (a) the fixed and specified dollar amounts the New Club will pay, guarantee or lend to the Restricted Free Agent and/or his designees (currently and/or as deferred compensation in specified installments on specified dates) in consideration for his services as a football player under the Player Contract (i.e., signing bonus, Paragraph 5 Salary, and reporting and roster bonuses); and (b) Salary that is variable and/or is subject to calculation only upon the following bases: (1) based upon the performance of the Club extending the Offer Sheet (only those incentives which are "likely to be earned" by the player if he enters into a Player Contract with the New Club, pursuant to Subsection (c) above, must be matched by the Prior Club for the purpose of exercising a Right of First Refusal, and such incentives may not exceed 15% of the Salary in the Offer Sheet); and (2) League honors listed in Exhibit C to Article 13; and
(ii) Any modifications of and additions to the terms contained in the NFL Player Contract requested by the Restricted Free Agent and acceptable to the New Club, that relate to non-compensation terms (including guarantees, no-cut, and no-trade provisions) of the Restricted Free Agent’s employment as a football player (which shall be evidenced either by a copy of the NFL Player Contract, marked to show changes, or by a written brief summary contained in or attached to the Offer Sheet).
(iii) Notwithstanding Subsections (i) and (ii) above, no Offer Sheet may contain a Principal Term that would create rights or obligations for the Old Club that differ in any way (including but not limited to the amount of compensation that would be paid, the circumstances in which compensation would be guaranteed, or the circumstances in which other contractual rights would or would not vest) from the rights or obligations that such Principal Term would create for the Club extending the Offer Sheet (i.e., no "poison pills")."

 

EDIT: Found a copy of the current CBA. I skimmed, but I saw nothing in there either.

https://nflpaweb.blob.core.windows.net/media/Default/PDFs/General/2011_Final_CBA_Searchable_Bookmarked.pdf

 

[TSO]

10 hours ago, RedskinsMayne said:

most of who? Many people were in the 12-15 range...

 

Most of us who wanted him signed. And it was hardly a consensus one way or another. I think you're exaggerating a bit with this whole thing, but I hardly see why it's so important anyway for you to prove that the majority either wanted him signed long term for super cheap or were perfectly fine with the tag with zero problems. 

 

All that'd mean is that the majority were being unrealistic and unreasonable, or at least not taking into account the likeliest outcomes with a rising cap... so it's not some proof or justification of anything.

 

The best option last year was always signing him long term at around 20 million per year and it's not really hindsight to say that now. Time has borne that out to be true. Not the end of the world the team didn't show better foresight there, but there's still time for them to make up for it. 

[Tsailand]

@RedskinsMayne I agree that my scenario goes against the intention of the transition tag and would be unfair to the Redskins.  However, I still haven't seen any evidence that it's against the rules.  It's never come up before, since it requires such an unlikely combination of events:

 

1. A player gets transition tagged.  According to wikipedia this has only happened three times in the last 11 years.

2. The player is willing to sign a one year offer sheet instead of a long term offer from another team.

3. The other team is willing to take the risk of overpaying on the one-year offer and hoping the player negotiates the extension later.

4. The player hates his current team so much that he'll go along with this scam just to get away from them.

[Morneblade]

The only stipulation I found is that the amount of guaranteed money can't go down. In this case if it's 28 million and change for 1 year on the Transitional tag, you could not do a LTD that would guarantee less.

 

That's it.

 

The fact that the Transitional tag is so rarely used, and actually frowned upon is likely why something like this could still be done. Like the "poison pill" clause, they will probably need to have something happen to cause them to make sure it doesn't happen again. It's a loophole that will likely have to be exploited for it to be closed.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

22 hours ago, petedaddy said:

 

Here are some others to toot their horns...

 

 

 

 

From @Califan007

 

"By the way...how many GMs are kicking themselves right now for not offering more in a trade for Cousins? lol..."

 

 

There were plenty more, and sorry to anyone I missed, but this is what I found in a quick recap and thought a little horn tooting for some of the people who predicted this was in order during these now slow days of the offseason

 

 

 

I don't really think what i said there was tooting my own horn lol...

[TD_washingtonredskins]

4 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

I don't really think what i said there was tooting my own horn lol...

 

His point was that he was going to toot your horn (insert innuendo here) because a while back you are on record as recognizing KC's value. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

5 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

His point was that he was going to toot your horn (insert innuendo here) because a while back you are on record as recognizing KC's value. 

 

Ohhhh....yeah, I stayed away from thanking him for tooting my horn lol...though tooting my own horn doesn't sound much better.

 

I'll shut up now.

[HOF44]

Well if there is any way the management council can use the rules to harm the Skins you can expect it to play out that way.  Sign the man to a LTD!! I don't want have to count on Mara and Goddell's crooked asses interpreting a rule in our favor. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

8 minutes ago, HOF44 said:

Well if there is any way the management council can use the rules to harm the Skins you can expect it to play out that way.  Sign the man to a LTD!! I don't want have to count on Mara and Goddell's crooked asses interpreting a rule in our favor. 

 

Let's stop this narrative. 

 

All the NFL has to do to hurt our organization is just stay out of our way. 

[RedskinsMayne]

59 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

Most of us who wanted him signed. And it was hardly a consensus one way or another. I think you're exaggerating a bit with this whole thing, but I hardly see why it's so important anyway for you to prove that the majority either wanted him signed long term for super cheap or were perfectly fine with the tag with zero problems. 

 

All that'd mean is that the majority were being unrealistic and unreasonable, or at least not taking into account the likeliest outcomes with a rising cap... so it's not some proof or justification of anything.

 

The best option last year was always signing him long term at around 20 million per year and it's not really hindsight to say that now. Time has borne that out to be true. Not the end of the world the team didn't show better foresight there, but there's still time for them to make up for it. 

 

 

Well, I was called stupid for saying that most people did not want/expect to pay Kirk elite QB money for eight games. I still feel like I'm right about that, with the exception that I exaggerated  with "no one". We'll settle for most.

 

@morne, I actually hate it when people say Wikipedia is a terrible source because honestly it is probably better than a text book because it a conglomerate of facts, but a lot of Wikipedia articles have incomplete information. I'm not trying to prove you wrong, but your primise makes no sense. The transition tag has been used before, if what you are saying is true every team who's trio but to acquire a tagged player would just offer a ridiculous contract they knew the other team couldn't match with the wink nod team friendly contract already agreed to.

[HOF44]

7 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Let's stop this narrative. 

 

All the NFL has to do to hurt our organization is just stay out of our way. 

True but they do love to pile on whenever they get a chance!

[TSO]

1 hour ago, RedskinsMayne said:

Well, I was called stupid for saying that most people did not want/expect to pay Kirk elite QB money for eight games. I still feel like I'm right about that, with the exception that I exaggerated  with "no one". We'll settle for most.

 

 

You were called stupid? There's another exaggeration on your end.  

 

Look, you started out with saying something unequivocally false about how everyone viewed not signing him long term last offseason. That was then corrected. At most, @Peregrine called your statement out as "BS", which maybe was harsh but your statement was false. 

 

Maybe you're thinking about @Tsailand saying "idiots will respond with: hindsight is 20/20"... but that wasn't necessarily directed at you. 

 

Either way, your point was premised on a falsehood and, when corrected, it should've ended there. I'm glad you acknowledged your exaggeration in the first place, but it seems like you're still trying to justify it by acting like you were victimized. 

 

Anyway... I think most of us were willing to accept the rationale of them not signing him long term, but it came with conditions. The main one being that they sign him long term the next offseason for only a few more million per year. If that doesn't happen, I think those of us who were annoyed, bothered, or whatever have every right to be critical of the team. Big time.  

[Veryoldschool]

Snyder would happily pay 25M+ per year for some other team's 28 year old Pro Bowl QB to win a bidding war over other owners because outbidding others and signing the guy would give him a chubby.  Apparently the prospect of signing his own 28 year old Pro Bowl QB 25M+ per year makes Snyder feel impotent hence his flaccid response. 

 

 

[RedskinsMayne]

I don't think I was victimized, you asked why I responded. You act like I'm supposed to smell a fart and like it. I was mostly correct, fractionally wrong.

A small small fraction of people were upset a Ltd wasn't done last year. Ok, you win by a needles prick.  Woohoo.

[Morneblade]

11 minutes ago, RedskinsMayne said:

I don't think I was victimized, you asked why I responded. You act like I'm supposed to smell a fart and like it. I was mostly correct, fractionally wrong.

A small small fraction of people were upset a Ltd wasn't done last year. Ok, you win by a needles prick.  Woohoo.

[petedaddy]

13 minutes ago, RedskinsMayne said:

I don't think I was victimized, you asked why I responded. You act like I'm supposed to smell a fart and like it. I was mostly correct, fractionally wrong.

A small small fraction of people were upset a Ltd wasn't done last year. Ok, you win by a needles prick.  Woohoo.

 

you are cracking me up trying to win this argument and throwing in how you were maybe, potentially, possibly, ever so slightly, fractionally wrong

 

as the reigning president of the Kirk Cousins fan club, the unofficial poll we took from anonymous sources had it as the following after the 2015 Season

 

those who wanted Kirk signed long term and completely avoid franchise tag at all costs - 30% 

 

those who wanted Kirk signed long term at $20 million per but were ok with franchise tag as long as they ponied up next year - 35%

 

those who thought he deserved a franchise tag only - 20%

 

those who thought Kirk should be run out of town - 15%

 

 

[Morneblade]

36 minutes ago, RedskinsMayne said:

I don't think I was victimized, you asked why I responded. You act like I'm supposed to smell a fart and like it. I was mostly correct, fractionally wrong.

A small small fraction of people were upset a Ltd wasn't done last year. Ok, you win by a needles prick.  Woohoo.

 

16 minutes ago, petedaddy said:

 

you are cracking me up trying to win this argument and throwing in how you were maybe, potentially, possibly, ever so slightly, fractionally wrong

 

as the reigning president of the Kirk Cousins fan club, the unofficial poll we took from anonymous sources had it as the following after the 2015 Season

 

those who wanted Kirk signed long term and completely avoid franchise tag at all costs - 30% 

 

those who wanted Kirk signed long term at $20 million per but were ok with franchise tag as long as they ponied up next year - 35%

 

those who thought he deserved a franchise tag only - 20%

 

those who thought Kirk should be run out of town - 15%

 

 

[Taylor 36]

1 hour ago, Veryoldschool said:

Snyder would happily pay 25M+ per year for some other team's 28 year old Pro Bowl QB to win a bidding war over other owners because outbidding others and signing the guy would give him a chubby.  Apparently the prospect of signing his own 28 year old Pro Bowl QB 25M+ per year makes Snyder feel impotent hence his flaccid response. 

 

 

You do realize that Snyder isn't making those decisions any more, like we all wanted.  He is staying out of this, again, like we asked.  Allen, who is notoriously cheap, is the one who isn't ponying up.

[wit33]

I support the Redskin organization. 

[Cliffmark1]

4 minutes ago, wit33 said:

I support the Redskin organization. 

I support the 1980s organization. why do you support snyder's redskins?

[wit33]

1 minute ago, Cliffmark1 said:

I support the 1980s organization. why do you support snyder's redskins?

 

Its hard to consistently win in the NFL. You need an elite QB, Snyder hasn't been fortunate to get an elite QB. Hopefully Kirk can find a way to get there, but even with an above average QB the Snyder Skins have experienced two winning seasons in a row. It's all about the QB, unless you have special people running the organization using "First Principle" type thinking and not following what tradition or the market tells them to do. 

 

I dont blame Snyder for not getting an elite QB to date. He will become a great owner when Kirk becomes elite or another guy some day. 

[TSO]

Interesting stuff from Breer (bolded emphasis mine): 

 

Quote

OFFSEASON LESSON TO LEAVE WITH YOU

Photo: Scott W. Grau/Icon Sportswire via Getty Images

The Redskins and Kirk Cousins haven’t been able to work out a long-term contract.

The Redskins have spent much of this week trying to convince everyone who will listen that the wagon of their future is very much hitched to Kirk Cousins, and they’re going to do all they can to extend him ahead of the July 15 deadline.

 

So over coffee Monday morning, I asked team president Bruce Allen if he sees Cousins as the face of the franchise for the next five or six years, rather than just a for-now fix. He offered a little proof that the Redskins do.

 

“Well, since we’ve offered him a contract around that length, I’d say yes we do,” Allen said. “He has gotten better the last three years, and we see him getting better in the future, and that’s why we do want to sign him long-term. We like his role as our quarterback and our leader, we just have to work that out.

“We talked last year, we didn’t get it done long-term. We have him signed for this year, and an option for next year. But our goal is to get a long-term deal.”

 

As I understand it, the deal that’s been offered is a five-year extension over the $23.94 million franchise tag that would lock up Cousins through 2022. I also know that the sides aren’t close to getting something done now. And while Allen insisted to me that he didn’t see the high one-year price making the long-term talks any trickier, the road to getting a deal done certainly won’t be easy.

 

But it also got me thinking about something else, which leads to our offseason lesson for this week: How quickly we forget about things.

 

The Redskins have taken an old familiar look over the past few weeks, and that look isn’t pretty. That said, when I asked Allen about if he’s worried about where perception has gone, he answered that perception is based on results. And he’s right. If the team can get Cousins signed between now and mid-summer, and put together a solid draft class, the opportunity is there to put everything in the rearview.

 

Of course, if things go the other way, then the way former GM Scot McCloughan was ousted will be reprised plenty. And that makes the Redskins one of the most interesting teams in the league for 2017.

 

So to wrap up this week, here are five questions I asked Allen, and his answers:

 

 

His Q&A with Allen here

 

 

So we knew the guaranteed amount was way too low, but I didn't know it extends through 2022, which means it's a 6 year deal.  

 

[PartyPosse]

If they offered him 24 and over and they're not even close to getting something done then **** him. Clearly he's not looking for market value.