The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

[MartinC]

3 minutes ago, carex said:

 

well that's just it.  If they give him a salary of 24 million this year plus any sort of signing bonus, then his cap hit rises this year from the franchise tag

 

Thats not how it works. Any long term deal would replace the franchise tag. Its likely the structure would be signing bonus, base salaries with x amount guaranteed. The base salaries would be much lower than $24M and the signing bonus would be pro rated across the length of the contract. The pro rated amount would count in 2018. Almost certainly his cap hit would be lower in 2018 under a long term deal - probably around $18-19M.

 

The hit might rise towards the back end of the deal depending how its structured.

1 minute ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I don't think he believes Colt is a long-term alternative, because of age and proneness to injury, but I think he would be fine riding with Colt as the bridge QB until we find our QBOTF.  Let's just say that if Colt wasn't here, I believe we would have already had Kirk locked up long-term. 

 

And yes, as Tsailand said, it's seriously ****ing retarded.

 

You could be right, but thats not my reading of the situation. If it was true why are we paying Kirk $24M this year?

[Skinsinparadise]

21 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I'm guessing the second option.  I really think it's as simple as this: Bruce Allen legitimately believes Colt McCoy can produce close to, or at, the level Cousins does with a fraction of the cost.  We've heard reports of this the last couple years.  Bruce Allen is the one who brought Colt in as a FA in 2014, and I think he is content to keep low-balling Kirk as long as Colt is the alternative.

 

Yeah that's the plan B I keep hearing, even the national reporters are on this which is the Redskins really really like Colt McCoy.   It's the one reason why I am not going to relax about this until/if a deal is done.  I get the Von Miller contract analogies that people use and I agree with the thrust of that argument which is deadlines create deals.   But to me there are components to this story that are very different than Von Miller's gig.    You have Kirk's ex-coordinators looming out there who might need a QB in 2018 and if the Redskins are actually sincere in liking Colt -- there is a viable Plan B in their minds.

 

The reason why I am gathering there is so much pessimism from local and national reporters about a Kirk deal getting a LTC done isn't because they are unaware of the deadlines create deals dynamic.  It's that they seem to be buying into the narrative.  The narrative being that Bruce is unwilling to meet Kirk's price.  He hopes Kirk comes down in price and if Kirk doesn't come down -- he thinks he's making the right decision for the Redskins to ride with Colt for a few million a year over 24 million a year with Kirk.  

 

Many reporters believe that this impasse comes into play.  Now this could all be a negotiation bluff by Bruce or whomever their sources are at Redskins Park.  The reason why I am thinking or hoping its a bluff is I don't see the value in these one to one year rentals -- it just seems that its Bruce buying time to see if Kirk comes off his demands.  But ultimately, he is going to run out of time. 

 

And like I said, I hate everything about the Scot-Bruce fallout in the media except one thing:  the narrative about Bruce being the roadblock in 2015-2016 for getting the contract done, then.  Whether that's true or not, it directs the heat squarely on Bruce Allen.

[carex]

Just now, MartinC said:

 

Thats not how it works. Any long term deal would replace the franchise tag. Its likely the structure would be signing bonus, base salaries with x amount guaranteed. The base salaries would be much lower than $24M and the signing bonus would be pro rated across the length of the contract. The pro rated amount would count in 2018. Almost certainly his cap hit would be lower in 2018 under a long term deal - probably around $18-19M.

 

I know that.  But people are saying pay him 24 million a year, like with the tag.  If we pay him a base salary of 24 million plus the prorated portion of the bonus that adds up to more than the 24 million of the tag.  And I'm afraid the problem is that Kirk wants that tag as his base salary plus whatever bonus, while the Skins want something that gives him a 24(or less) million dollar cap hit and maybe a bigger check at the front

[MartinC]

11 minutes ago, carex said:

 

I know that.  But people are saying pay him 24 million a year, like with the tag.  If we pay him a base salary of 24 million plus the prorated portion of the bonus that adds up to more than the 24 million of the tag.  And I'm afraid the problem is that Kirk wants that tag as his base salary plus whatever bonus, while the Skins want something that gives him a 24(or less) million dollar cap hit and maybe a bigger check at the front

 

People are generally talking about the average value being $24M not his base being $24M. Average value is actually only important to the agent to shout about what a great deal he got. The more important numbers are the guaranteed amount and how much is upfront.

 

If Kirk wants $24M a year base and a large bonus I wish him well with whatever team is willing to pay him that.

[HTTRDynasty]

9 minutes ago, MartinC said:

You could be right, but thats not my reading of the situation. If it was true why are we paying Kirk $24M this year?

 

Because, as SIP said, I think Bruce is buying time and believes Kirk will cave to a lower price on the LTD.  If not, he is fine to roll with Colt.

[MartinC]

Just now, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Because, as SIP said, I think Bruce is buying time and believes Kirk will cave to a lower price on the LTD.  If not, he is fine to roll with Colt.

 

Well I hope thats just a negotiating tactic. I'd be amazed if Gruden saw Colt as anything more than a decent backup who could MAYBE get you through a couple of games.

 

Colt started 4 games in 2014 and took 17 sacks!

[HTTRDynasty]

1 minute ago, MartinC said:

 

Well I hope thats just a negotiating tactic. I'd be amazed if Gruden saw Colt as anything more than a decent backup who could MAYBE get you through a couple of games.

 

Colt started 4 games in 2014 and took 17 sacks!

 

I really hope it is too.  And I agree about Gruden; he's the only decision-maker on the team that I trust and I think he knows how rare a player like Kirk is in this league.  The problem is that it's his penny-pinching boss that's ultimately going to be making the decision, not him.

[carex]

10 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

Well I hope thats just a negotiating tactic. I'd be amazed if Gruden saw Colt as anything more than a decent backup who could MAYBE get you through a couple of games.

 

Colt started 4 games in 2014 and took 17 sacks!

 

our line wasn't that great that year.  Chester and Polumbus or Compton on the right side, pretty sure Lauvao hadn't been an LG with the Browns and Kory was undersized

[HOF44]

32 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I don't think he believes Colt is a long-term alternative, because of age and proneness to injury, but I think he would be fine riding with Colt as the bridge QB until we find our QBOTF.

 

With the dynamic duo if Snyder/Allen picking a new QB, as if that was not fraught enough, we will end up with a 50 year old McCoy and no end of the bridge in site. 

 

They really can't be either that deluded or stupid, take your pick.

[Morneblade]

1 minute ago, HOF44 said:

 

With the dynamic duo if Snyder/Allen picking a new QB, as if that was not fraught enough, we will end up with a 50 year old McCoy and no end of the bridge in site. 

 

Or Jason Campbell III

[Skinsinparadise]

23 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

Well I hope thats just a negotiating tactic. I'd be amazed if Gruden saw Colt as anything more than a decent backup who could MAYBE get you through a couple of games.

 

Colt started 4 games in 2014 and took 17 sacks!

 

Yeah as I said it could very well be a negotiating tactic.  

 

But yeah if I had to summarize what some beat-national reporters have said about this which represents the biggest disconnect with some of the thoughts in this thread.  People at Redskins Park don't see it as the end of the world, if Colt's the guy.   There seems to be a new narrative that some are selling about a new and improved Colt. Maybe they wouldn't be as good offensively but it would be close enough and they'd have Colt on the cheap.  

 

On the radio JP Finlay has really gone to town about talking to people at Redskins Park there is a strong belief in Colt.  Breer has hit the point hard and at least another national reporter or two has if I recall it was King and Rapoport.

 

Albert Breer Says Some In Washington Organization Believe “Better Off Renting Colt McCoy Than Selling Out For Kirk Cousins”

http://cleveland.cbslocal.com/2017/03/15/albert-breer-says-some-in-washington-organization-believe-better-off-renting-colt-mccoy-than-selling-out-for-kirk-cousins/

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/football-insider/wp/2017/02/16/if-the-redskins-part-ways-with-kirk-cousins-here-are-three-options-at-quarterback/?utm_term=.6d1220764e01

1. Start Colt McCoy. This is a no-brainer, even though he has thrown just 11 regular season passes over the past two seasons. McCoy is arguably the best backup quarterback in the NFL, and he could be a starter on a few teams. The 30-year-old is familiar with the offense and has experience, with 25 career starts.

McCoy doesn’t have the quick release or arm strength that Cousins does, but he makes up for it in part with his anticipation and timing — particularly on intermediate routes. McCoy had a strong training camp last year, and he is more than capable of stepping in as the full-time starter if the opportunity presents itself.

 

http://www.espn.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/30619/with-kirk-cousins-situation-unsettled-redskins-must-consider-alternatives

McCoy plays with a moxie that coach Jay Gruden appreciates. It gives McCoy the ability to lead and also to extend plays when nothing is available. His knowledge of the offense helps compensate for shortcomings, allowing him to throw with anticipation. At times in training camp practices, for example, he'll throw an out route and the ball will arrive just as the receiver turns around -- and the defensive back has no shot. McCoy has worked for several offseasons with Tom House, a former major league pitcher. That work, focusing on resistance bands, medicine balls and dumbbells, has "significantly helped me as far as throwing the ball," McCoy said. It also helped fully heal the shoulder injury he suffered in college.

[RWJ]

30 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yeah that's the plan B I keep hearing, even the national reporters are on this which is the Redskins really really like Colt McCoy.   It's the one reason why I am not going to relax about this until/if a deal is done.  I get the Von Miller contract analogies that people use and I agree with the thrust of that argument which is deadlines create deals.   But to me there are components to this story that are very different than Von Miller's gig.    You have Kirk's ex-coordinators looming out there who might need a QB in 2018 and if the Redskins are actually sincere in liking Colt -- there is a viable Plan B in their minds.

 

The reason why I am gathering there is so much pessimism from local and national reporters about a Kirk deal getting a LTC done isn't because they are unaware of the deadlines create deals dynamic.  It's that they seem to be buying into the narrative.  The narrative being that Bruce is unwilling to meet Kirk's price.  He hopes Kirk comes down in price and if Kirk doesn't come down -- he thinks he's making the right decision for the Redskins to ride with Colt for a few million a year over 24 million a year with Kirk.  

 

Many reporters believe that this impasse comes into play.  Now this could all be a negotiation bluff by Bruce or whomever their sources are at Redskins Park.  The reason why I am thinking or hoping its a bluff is I don't see the value in these one to one year rentals -- it just seems that its Bruce buying time to see if Kirk comes off his demands.  But ultimately, he is going to run out of time. 

 

And like I said, I hate everything about the Scot-Bruce fallout in the media except one thing:  the narrative about Bruce being the roadblock in 2015-2016 for getting the contract done, then.  Whether that's true or not, it directs the heat squarely on Bruce Allen.

I tweeted Corry (former agent and fella that mentioned the $40 mill guaranteed) about his thoughts on KC getting a LTD here: 

 

Does a KC LTD with Redskins get done, Joel?

His reply:  I'll believe it when I see it. 

 

Doesn't sound optimistic to me.  Sudfeld is not a starting, let alone backup QB in the NFL, IMO and the Skins need to draft one high (2nd or 3rd round) to sit behind KC this year to hopefully learn and be somewhat ready when the 2018 season starts.  I think that QB is Nate Peterman.

 

 

[TSO]

There is one thing I think may be why the team is waiting besides the obvious that "deadlines drive deals". And that's the pending contract extensions with Stafford and Matt Ryan. Stafford looks more like a sure thing. There's been only talk about Ryan, though it seems legitimate. Some recent news on Stafford's:

 

 

I think those two will really give the team ammo with Kirk's agent regarding a potential long term deal and move Kirk's side, even if it's ever so slightly, off of the "only negotiate off of the tag" thought-process (which is entirely legitimate). It gives the team a framework with which to operate and say "this is what you'll likely get on the open market right now, so let's work on something comparable".

 

I've had the sense that the team thinks Stafford/Ryan's pending contract extensions will favor them in negotiations. Just my gut feeling, though. I'm not so sure those contracts will work out in their favor, either, but I can see the rationale behind it if you're Allen/Shaffer.  

 

I also wonder if the Falcons and Lions are holding off waiting on what we do with Kirk, as well. It's just as likely that their agents are looking at the Kirk situation and telling their respective organizations that they want to negotiate off of the tag just the same.  There's probably a lot of intrigue we don't know about going on between these agents and organizations. I don't think we're operating in as much of a vacuum as we think.    

 

 

As for the other discussion going on here about McCoy/rookie QB of the future... I'm sorry, that just disgusts me. I'm in no mood of developing another QB and/or relying on McCoy staying healthy and producing like Kirk. Not when we're this close. It'd be unprecedented to do that, and when have the Redskins done something almost no one in the league ever did and have it pan out? Lol.

 

If the team thinks like that, they'll get what they deserve then and we'll have to suffer for it. Yay.  

[HOF44]

This McCoy talk is craziness, but saying that I'm not sure if it's untrue.  Here is how McCoy will play out.  He MAY get a good game or two then all the D's will take away the throws that don't require a big arm. Then he will be scrambling, creating and getting hurt.  He will be lucky if he gets those good 2 games.  Most D's already know this and will prep accordingly. 

 

My god this team has pissed money down the drain for years, FINALLY get a QB that could be the real deal and they go cheap.  WTF?????

[HTTRDynasty]

@thesubmittedone The Carr LTD will be a comp for Cousins as well.

 

Raiders GM Reggie McKenzie said extension talks with walk-year QB Derek Carr will ramp up after the draft.

 

"He knows what we’re trying to do in free agency," McKenzie said. "The communication has been ongoing, just talking about the philosophy of a contract and the thought process around it. Hopefully when the serious talks start going, then it’s going to be easier." The Raiders also would like to work out extensions with Khalil Mack and RG Gabe Jackson before training camp, but Carr will be first in line. It will be shocking if the two sides do not get it done over the summer.

[RWJ]

Allen should officially take the title of GM.  I believe he has final say over who the draft selections are and over FA.  Why doesn't he and why does he hold the title of VP only because it gives him job security.  If the draft picks don't work out the blame goes to the GM, a lot of the times and the GM and or HC get fired.  JMO.   

[Tsailand]

43 minutes ago, MartinC said:

If it was true why are we paying Kirk $24M this year?

 

Because trading him for a 2nd round pick would be a PR disaster and immediate fan revolt.

 

And, in their hearts, Dan and Bruce know that Kirk is the only QB available who can get us a winning 2017.  Nothing against Colt, he could do OK on a good team, but on this trashfire he'd go 4-9 and then get hurt and Nate finishes out the season.

 

 

 

[TSO]

3 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

@thesubmittedone The Carr LTD will be a comp for Cousins as well.

 

Raiders GM Reggie McKenzie said extension talks with walk-year QB Derek Carr will ramp up after the draft.

 

"He knows what we’re trying to do in free agency," McKenzie said. "The communication has been ongoing, just talking about the philosophy of a contract and the thought process around it. Hopefully when the serious talks start going, then it’s going to be easier." The Raiders also would like to work out extensions with Khalil Mack and RG Gabe Jackson before training camp, but Carr will be first in line. It will be shocking if the two sides do not get it done over the summer.

 

 

Ahh, completely forgot about him, too. 

 

So, yeah, you've got three QBs totally comparable to Cousins that are in the process of getting extensions, or very likely to at least. I think that HAS to be affecting this whole thing. For all of them, not just our situation. 

[Tsailand]

7 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

There is one thing I think may be why the team is waiting besides the obvious that "deadlines drive deals". And that's the pending contract extensions with Stafford and Matt Ryan.

 

How does that help us?  We wait and see what their numbers are, then tell Kirk, "You aren't as good as Matt Ryan so we're going to pay you less than Matt Ryan"? 

 

If Ryan gets 27M/year, Kirk will say, "Cool, give me 26". 

 

If Ryan gets 25M/year, Kirk will say, "**** you guys if you won't pay me. Franchise tag is my friend."

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

19 minutes ago, RWJ said:

I tweeted Corry (former agent and fella that mentioned the $40 mill guaranteed) about his thoughts on KC getting a LTD here: 

 

Does a KC LTD with Redskins get done, Joel?

His reply:  I'll believe it when I see it. 

 

 

I've listened to Corry a lot, he's a frequent radio guest on said topic.  He thinks Kirk is worth an Andrew Luck deal more or less.  And seems skeptical the Redskins will give him one.

16 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

There is one thing I think may be why the team is waiting besides the obvious that "deadlines drive deals". And that's the pending contract extensions with Stafford and Matt Ryan. Stafford looks more like a sure thing. There's been only talk about Ryan, though it seems legitimate. Some recent news on Stafford's:

rating in as much of a vacuum as we think.    

 

 

Yeah that's what Cooley-Sheehan have been talking about.  As they've said though it could go either way -- lets say Stafford gets 22 million a year (Great) but what if he gets 27 million a year, then the bar is reset?  Joel Corry seems to think Stafford-Ryan deals will more likely help versus hurt Kirk's leverage.   But I agree with the premise which is Bruce thinks he has nothing to lose by waiting.  That seems to fit his approach from 2015 through today.   So far it hasn't worked out for him.  It feels like watching a gambler playing craps who keeps playing the same hand but can't stop because they figure it will ultimately work out eventually -- and if they give up on that approach now they would be conceding they misplayed their hand.  And they don't want to concede their strategy didn't work out. 

[TSO]

9 minutes ago, Tsailand said:

 

How does that help us?  We wait and see what their numbers are, then tell Kirk, "You aren't as good as Matt Ryan so we're going to pay you less than Matt Ryan"? 

 

If Ryan gets 27M/year, Kirk will say, "Cool, give me 26". 

 

If Ryan gets 25M/year, Kirk will say, "**** you guys if you won't pay me. Franchise tag is my friend."

 

You're assuming Ryan would get that much. I'm not so sure. I don't think the team is, either. 

 

It's just a theory on my part, anyway, I'm not saying this is 100% true. But I just have a gut feeling that the team wants to see how/if those contracts get done and they might even believe it'll benefit them. 

 

And I don't think it's just about Ryan. It'd be about Stafford and Carr, as well. 

 

I will say that I think it's naive to believe there's no connection here at all. Everyone around the league is tied to what happens with record-setting contracts. The QB position especially.  

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Yeah that's what Cooley-Sheehan have been talking about.  As they've said though it could go either way -- lets say Stafford gets 22 million a year (Great) but what if he gets 27 million a year, then the bar is reset?  Joel Corry seems to think Stafford-Ryan deals will more likely help versus hurt Kirk's leverage.   But I agree with the premise which is Bruce thinks he has nothing to lose by waiting.  That seems to fit his approach from 2015 through today.   So far it hasn't worked out for him.  It feels like watching a gambler playing craps who keeps playing the same hand but can't stop because they figure it will ultimately work out eventually -- and if they give up on that approach now it would concede they misplayed their hand.

 

Yeah, like I said, I'm not so sure that, were they thinking that it'd favor them to wait and see what happens with those contracts, that it'd work out for their benefit. Could easily go the other way.

 

At the same time, maybe they don't care. Maybe they're thinking well, whatever... either way we're going to have to pay him market value either this year or next year so even if it's for more than we think, welp, it's going to happen.

 

Heck, maybe it's Kirk's side that is waiting for those contracts. And maybe those guys are wanting Kirk to hold out as long as possible on the tag so that their agents could negotiate off it themselves.

 

Lot of intrigue there, lol. But I do think it's inter-connected. I really do. I think that often gets missed when we discuss it here.  

[RWJ]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I've listened to Corry a lot, he's a frequent radio guest and said topic.  He think Kirk is worth an Andrew Luck deal more or less.  And seems skeptical the Redskins will give him one.

 

Yeah that's what Cooley-Sheehan have been talking about.  As they've said though it could go either way -- lets say Stafford gets 22 million a year (Great) but what if he gets 27 million a year, then the bar is reset?  Joel Corry seems to think Stafford-Ryan deals will more likely help versus hurt Kirk's leverage.   But I agree with the premise which is Bruce thinks he has nothing to lose by waiting.  That seems to fit his approach from 2015 through today.   So far it hasn't worked out for him.  Bruce almost feels like a gambler playing craps who keeps playing the same hand but can't stop because they figure it will ultimately work out eventually. 

Yep, SIP.  The price goes up and next year it's either $28 mill on a TT or $34 mill on a FT.  Kind of stupid when you really think about it by Bruce.  If he signs here or someone else on the TT we get no compensation from what I have read; I might be wrong.  But if you add it all up and say we got him even on the TT, which I believe it doubtful it will mean that KC will have made $71 - $72 mill over 3 years, if he plays here in 2018.  Crazy and the Redskins would be the talk of the league, if that were to happen and not in a positive way.

[srtman04]

22 minutes ago, RWJ said:

Yep, SIP.  The price goes up and next year it's either $28 mill on a TT or $34 mill on a FT.  Kind of stupid when you really think about it by Bruce.  If he signs here or someone else on the TT we get no compensation from what I have read; I might be wrong.  But if you add it all up and say we got him even on the TT, which I believe it doubtful it will mean that KC will have made $71 - $72 mill over 3 years, if he plays here in 2018.  Crazy and the Redskins would be the talk of the league, if that were to happen and not in a positive way.

THIS ORGANIZATION IS ****ING DUMB, INCOMPETENT, COMPLETE ****ING BUFFOONS.  Thanks for confirming their stupidity.  You truly can't fix stupid, especially if this brain dead owner never sells the team.....

[carex]

56 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

People are generally talking about the average value being $24M not his base being $24M. Average value is actually only important to the agent to shout about what a great deal he got. The more important numbers are the guaranteed amount and how much is upfront.

 

If Kirk wants $24M a year base and a large bonus I wish him well with whatever team is willing to pay him that.

 

glad to see someone else feels that way. 

 

I've just seen some stuff where Kirk says he feels that the franchise tag hurts the ability to set a price.  Considering NFL contracts start low and go high and part of the the purpose of a long term deal is to spread the cost across the cap I don't see how that is really.  I'm no ball player but it seems to me that the franchise player tag should be the maz of what a guy is worth.  Since he doesn't warret a pay cut he should have a price range from his salary last year to his tag number this year,

 

easy as pie  

 

I'm basically afraid he's considering the tag as the lowest he'll go, since as it stands that's what the Skins are required to pay him

 

[HOF44]

1 minute ago, carex said:

I'm basically afraid he's considering the tag as the lowest he'll go, since as it stands that's what the Skins are required to pay him

 

Somehow I feel this is going to become a cautionary tale on how not to handle a promising young QB.