The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

[Pick6]

19 minutes ago, purbeast said:

After hearing Bruce's comments today, I am really starting to lose hope that they are going to get a LTD done.  I don't care what he says at this point I pretty much don't buy anything.  I'll let his actions speak.  Chad Dukes had a very good take on it IMO.  It does seem like at this point Bruce Allen just wants to "win" and if they pay him market value, they aren't "winning" the negotiations.

 

If a deal was going to happen it would have happened last year. Kirk's camp offered a very reasonable amount at 19.5yr for 3 years. Both sides know where they stand and Bruce Allen won't offer market value. He wants to be known as a savvy negotiator. So he has decided to play this tag game two years in a row. He won't trade Kirk because nothing good enough has been offered yet. 

 

A new piece of evidence for the doubt from this interview today, is Bruce said' "there are many options in 2018 to keep Kirk in Washington." In Bruce's mind this is winning the negotiations. 

[Tay]

I think we will ultimately sign Kirk to a LTD. Last year, it was evident that they wanted a "prove it" year, because their thought was that the Osweiler deal disrupted the market (Scot said this). The word from the team this year is that the intent is to come to an agreement. 

 

Not everyone likes how long it's taking the team to come to a LTD, but this seems fairly typical in the NFL. This happened with Von Miller last year, and if we want to use a QB comp, this happened the last time Drew Brees was franchised. The daily talk of new developments is good for the radio, but we'll have to just let this play out. 

[Pick6]

7 minutes ago, Tay said:

Not everyone likes how long it's taking the team to come to a LTD, but this seems fairly typical in the NFL. This happened with Von Miller last year, and if we want to use a QB comp, this happened the last time Drew Brees was franchised. The daily talk of new developments is good for the radio, but we'll have to just let this play out. 

 

I mean you bring up two guys that are elite in the position. As much as I love Cousins and want him to be the QB here until he retires, elite he is not. He wants to be the highest paid QB. I have no problem with this, but I could see where the FO is having a disconnect. 

 

Also, how many players are franchised tagged and gone from that team next year. Even Josh Norman was franchised tagged and cut, because they couldn't make it happen. I think you can find examples of it going good or bad. 

 

For the the ones who believe a deal will get done, how would you feel if July 15th comes and goes with nothing signed? For me it would be one of the biggest mistakes of this franchice. They already gambled once on the guy and lost.  

[Tsailand]

1 hour ago, Pick6 said:

Kirk's camp offered a very reasonable amount at 19.5yr for 3 years.

 

Bruce Allen won't offer market value. He wants to be known as a savvy negotiator

 

Bruce thinks that if he signs Kirk for 25/year when he could have had him for 19/year, it will make him look bad.  And it will.

 

What will make Bruce look even worse is paying him 20+24+29=73 on the installment plan for those same three years that we could have him for 57.

[Tsailand]

On 3/22/2017 at 9:05 PM, TheShredSkinz said:

So even a Simien,Bortles,Dak,Mariotta,Winston,Sudfeld, or whoever could suddenly look like a guy who could demand to be the highest paid QB player in the league.

 

Yah let me know when those guys can throw 4900 yards to carry a team that has no running game and no D.

[joeken24]

1 hour ago, Tay said:

I think we will ultimately sign Kirk to a LTD. Last year, it was evident that they wanted a "prove it" year, because their thought was that the Osweiler deal disrupted the market (Scot said this). The word from the team this year is that the intent is to come to an agreement. 

 

Not everyone likes how long it's taking the team to come to a LTD, but this seems fairly typical in the NFL. This happened with Von Miller last year, and if we want to use a QB comp, this happened the last time Drew Brees was franchised. The daily talk of new developments is good for the radio, but we'll have to just let this play out. 

I agree this is going to have to play itself out. However, I cannot dismiss Chris Cooley's take awhile back about Kirk not wanting to be here. Cooley has definitely integrated himself nicely into the Snyder regime. Remember, he was the first one to come out about the possibility of Scott having drinking problems. So started the **** storm leading up to his firing. I've been asking myself lately if Cooley is the clandestine mouth piece for the Redskins brass? I like Cooley and maybe he's just "talking". Or maybe his "leak" was a bit of his own personal get back on McCloughan. Remember, McCloughan kind of dissed Cooley when Chris was desperately trying to return to football after the Redskins lost 2 tight ends for the season. Remember the McCloughan interview where Scott is saying with sort of smirk “Chris Cooley,” McCloughan added, “he’s a really good Redskin. He’s part of the Redskins still. I’m not going there.” Not the endorsement you want, right? Maybe Cooley took that as a stab in the heart. 

Anyway, here's Chris talking about Kirk Cousins "not wanting to be here": 

 

 

[TheGreat8s]

Was it confirmed that the whole rumours of Kirk asking for a trade were BS? I don't care how much he loves Shanny I can't see why anyone in their right mind would want to join that dumpster fire

[clskinsfan]

13 hours ago, Pick6 said:

 

If a deal was going to happen it would have happened last year. Kirk's camp offered a very reasonable amount at 19.5yr for 3 years. Both sides know where they stand and Bruce Allen won't offer market value. He wants to be known as a savvy negotiator. So he has decided to play this tag game two years in a row. He won't trade Kirk because nothing good enough has been offered yet. 

 

A new piece of evidence for the doubt from this interview today, is Bruce said' "there are many options in 2018 to keep Kirk in Washington." In Bruce's mind this is winning the negotiations. 

 

So you think 19.5 for 3 years was reasonable for a guy who played well in 8 games? There was no way we were signing Kirk to a long term deal after the 2015 season. He had not shown enough at that point to warrant it. IMO he hasnt shown enough to warrant what he is going to get in his LTD this year. But the price is the price if you want to keep him.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

10 hours ago, TheGreat8s said:

Was it confirmed that the whole rumours of Kirk asking for a trade were BS? I don't care how much he loves Shanny I can't see why anyone in their right mind would want to join that dumpster fire

 

ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reported that Cousins asked Redskins owner Daniel Snyder for a trade but “was basically told not to get his hopes up.”

This comes as news to Cousins, who admitted to reaching out to Snyder, but not to ask for a trade.

 

“I did inquire if there was any interest in trading me to get an understanding of their perspective,” Cousins told ESPN’s Adam Schefter on his “Know Them From Adam” podcast. “The answer I got back was Mr. Snyder communicated his belief in me and desire for me to remain a Redskin.”

 

Cousins first heard about the trade rumors at a shoe store.

 

“I laughed and thought, ‘I don’t know where that comes from because that wasn’t the case,’” Cousins explained. “Somehow it got twisted to where an employee of the store is using the word ‘demanded.’ That’s not the approach I took.”

 

[...]This meshes with that CBS Sports NFL Insider Jason La Canfora tweeted last week before Cousins signed his tender.

 

“Would Cousins be open to a trade and welcome it? Yes. Is he demanding a trade? No. Would he play there $24 million in 2017 if need be? Absolutely. Will Cousins sign that franchise tag and lock in that salary? Without a doubt, and soon at that..."

[petedaddy]

6 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

So you think 19.5 for 3 years was reasonable for a guy who played well in 8 games? There was no way we were signing Kirk to a long term deal after the 2015 season. He had not shown enough at that point to warrant it. IMO he hasnt shown enough to warrant what he is going to get in his LTD this year. But the price is the price if you want to keep him.

 

19.5 for 3 years was more than reasonable for Kirk after last season.  It was obvious then, and even more obvious now

 

We are now paying the price for our lack of vision

 

[Tay]

The organization decided to gather another 16 games of data before making a decision. Making that decisions doesn't mean they have to rush their process this offseason. We have to allow it to play out.

 

The idea that decision is costing them dearly is over blown. Their decision to wait, will cost them approximately an extra 1% of the cap. I think they were comfortable with the extra 1%, in order to feel more comfortable in their decision.

[TheGreek1973]

30 minutes ago, Tay said:

The organization decided to gather another 16 games of data before making a decision. Making that decisions doesn't mean they have to rush their process this offseason. We have to allow it to play out.

 

The idea that decision is costing them dearly is over blown. Their decision to wait, will cost them approximately an extra 1% of the cap. I think they were comfortable with the extra 1%, in order to feel more comfortable in their decision.

Nah man they blew it and they know it.  What I like to know is who blew it Allen/Synder or Scott?  And I know almost everyone is going to say the first two but I am not so sure.  That "how do you like me now" explosion of Cousins after the GB game tells me if Scott was against KC playing on the tag he certainly didn't fight as hard as he did when he wanted him to start over RGIII

[carex]

13 hours ago, joeken24 said:

I agree this is going to have to play itself out. However, I cannot dismiss Chris Cooley's take awhile back about Kirk not wanting to be here. Cooley has definitely integrated himself nicely into the Snyder regime. Remember, he was the first one to come out about the possibility of Scott having drinking problems. So started the **** storm leading up to his firing. I've been asking myself lately if Cooley is the clandestine mouth piece for the Redskins brass? I like Cooley and maybe he's just "talking". Or maybe his "leak" was a bit of his own personal get back on McCloughan. Remember, McCloughan kind of dissed Cooley when Chris was desperately trying to return to football after the Redskins lost 2 tight ends for the season. Remember the McCloughan interview where Scott is saying with sort of smirk “Chris Cooley,” McCloughan added, “he’s a really good Redskin. He’s part of the Redskins still. I’m not going there.” Not the endorsement you want, right? Maybe Cooley took that as a stab in the heart. 

Anyway, here's Chris talking about Kirk Cousins "not wanting to be here": 

 

 

 

okay, if Cooley's vision is accurate... am I the only one who finds that whole not doing enough to show the team loves him thing to be both irritating and disheartening?  Like if this is accurate he better not sign a long term contract and have a bad stretch.  Cause what's he gonna do when the fanbase says it's time to try Sudfeld or whoever?

 

I seriously dislike this suggestion of a fragile ego

[Morneblade]

I think the jury was, and should have been out after the 2015 season. Kirk had put a very good run together, but started out pretty bad. I have no issues with the FA wanted to see him in a 2nd year starting. To put it in perspective, we all know what happened with Oswieler with a smaller sample size.

 

Bust.

 

Or does everyone forget that Kirk used to throw a much higher % of ints? Absolutely not a sure thing.

 

So, I have no issues with waiting a year. Yes, hindsight says that we should have gotten a deal done then, but that's the beauty of it.

 

It also says we should not have dumped all those picks into RGIII, drafted Heath Shuler in the 1st round, or basically everything we've done the last 20 years. So let's get past that for a moment. We can't go back in time.

 

But we should have just gone ahead and gotten a LTD done ASAP and bitten the bullet. Yeah, it's gonna cost. But it already has.

[Bang]

i don't see the hurry at this point. A deal now opens doors for trades before the draft, and i don't want that.

Chill for 6 weeks or so. he can sign when he comes to minicamp.

 

~Bang

[Butters20]

I think Kirk shot for a number halfway between what he had earned to that point and what he would be worth if the season went well. 

 

It was was more than he was worth at that moment last offseason, and the catch 22 was he had a great year on the tag. 

 

So now he can reasonably command the 24ish range and is worth it thanks to the cap increase, whereas command 20 last year was more than his market value but now looks like we were crazynfor not doing it

[petedaddy]

3 minutes ago, Butters20 said:

I think Kirk shot for a number halfway between what he had earned to that point and what he would be worth if the season went well. 

 

It was was more than he was worth at that moment last offseason, and the catch 22 was he had a great year on the tag. 

 

So now he can reasonably command the 24ish range and is worth it thanks to the cap increase, whereas command 20 last year was more than his market value but now looks like we were crazynfor not doing it

 

that's what i don't get...he was actually paid 20 last season, but 20 was more than his market value

 

i can at least understand the logic of not wanting to commit the funds to him after season, but it was basically betting that Kirk would not play like a 20 million dollar quarterback and that turned out to be a very poor bet

 

that was basically the only outcome that would have ended with the redskins winning the bet of not paying him last year

 

[HTTRDynasty]

I thought this was pretty interesting.  It's not the end of the world (just look at Brady), but I expected Kirk to finish with a much better rank:

Quote

Kirk Cousins (Washington Redskins)

 

Accuracy Percentage On 16+ Throws: 48.4% (19th)

Accuracy Percentage on 20+ Throws: 43.2% (20th)

 

 

Kirk Cousins had great downfield stats in 2016, but the overall eye test was a different story.

 

The quality was certainly a step up from 2015, with several nice throws that led to touchdowns. Cousins was able to lead 2016 in 20+ yards as well.

 

But even then, there’s just too many bad throws and misses for the deep ball season not to reek of mediocrity. Despite playing with DeSean Jackson, Jamison Crowder, Pierre Garçon and Jordan Reed, Cousins still managed to overthrow his set of toys without providing routine accuracy.

 

So really, if you like stats, you’ll like Kirk Cousins’ 2016 season. If you like the eye test, you’ll probably be underwhelmed like I was. Take what you will from his season.

 

FINAL GRADE: C

 

 

[PartyPosse]

Based on those gifs, it seems Kirk has a hard time with touch passes. He's accurate as hell zipping the ball where he needs it to be but when it comes to floating it he has no idea where his passes are going. Is this a common problem?

[Morneblade]

5 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

I thought this was pretty interesting.  It's not the end of the world (just look at Brady), but I expected Kirk to finish with a much better rank:

 

 

When I looked at this it's in a way very comical.

Derek Carr is listed 1st and 3rd (16 and 20 yards respectively) Completed 50% and 40.7%

Kirk Cousins is listed 19th and 20th at 16 and 20 yards, but completed 52.7% and 47.3% respectively.

[HTTRDynasty]

4 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

When I looked at this it's in a way very comical.

Derek Carr is listed 1st and 3rd (16 and 20 yards respectively) Completed 50% and 40.7%

Kirk Cousins is listed 19th and 20th at 16 and 20 yards, but completed 52.7% and 47.3% respectively.

 

I know.  Read the intro to the article though.  It explains in more detail.  Completion percentage alone is a really bad way to measure downfield accuracy. 

10 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

Based on those gifs, it seems Kirk has a hard time with touch passes. He's accurate as hell zipping the ball where he needs it to be but when it comes to floating it he has no idea where his passes are going. Is this a common problem?

 

Yea, oddly enough, he seems to miss receivers running wide open deep, where he needs to float the ball in, more-so than he does WRs in one-on-one coverage in the intermediate and semi-deep range.

[clskinsfan]

1 hour ago, petedaddy said:

 

that's what i don't get...he was actually paid 20 last season, but 20 was more than his market value

 

i can at least understand the logic of not wanting to commit the funds to him after season, but it was basically betting that Kirk would not play like a 20 million dollar quarterback and that turned out to be a very poor bet

 

that was basically the only outcome that would have ended with the redskins winning the bet of not paying him last year

 

 

Last year their were 10 QB's that made 20 Million. This year their are 13. I honestly think if you slotted him in at 20 mill per year that would be fair value for what he is as player.   It's not gonna happen. He will most likely get at least 23 or 24 per year. The market will do what it does. If we want him. We have to pay him.

 

In all honesty I was fine with letting him play on the franchise tag last year. We avoided an Osweiller disaster at least. Now we know he is a solid starter and worth the commitment. Unfortunately the costs are going to be staggering.   

 

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/average/quarterback/

[clskinsfan]

16 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

When I looked at this it's in a way very comical.

Derek Carr is listed 1st and 3rd (16 and 20 yards respectively) Completed 50% and 40.7%

Kirk Cousins is listed 19th and 20th at 16 and 20 yards, but completed 52.7% and 47.3% respectively.

 

My biggest issue with Kirk has nothing to do with his accuracy. He is a very good deep ball passer. My three issues with him are his redzone passing, INT% and TD%. Those stats are bad.  And too me TD% is the most important stat for a QB. Especially in todays NFL. Without run first offenses to spoil the stat.  Cousins Ranked 16th last season in TD% while ranking 6th in attempts. That is not good. He also ranked 14th in INT%.  If he can give us 5-8 more TD's per year and cut out 2-3 more INT's per year I would feel much better about it. I will also add that Cousins has made great strides in reducing his turnovers overall. Yet he still has that knack for throwing a game killing pick in a high pressure situation. 

[PartyPosse]

2 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

My biggest issue with Kirk has nothing to do with his accuracy. He is a very good deep ball passer

For Kirk, IMO, his deep ball accuracy was aided greatly by arm strength and someone like Desean who has incredible speed and ball tracking skills. There weren't too many times where he hit someone deep in stride. For the most part receivers had to either wait or come back for the ball. Many times he just flat-out overthrew wide open guys. It's been said time and time again but it says something when you consistently overthrow Desean and that something ain't good.

[Morneblade]

6 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

My biggest issue with Kirk has nothing to do with his accuracy. He is a very good deep ball passer. My three issues with him are his redzone passing, INT% and TD%. Those stats are bad.  And too me TD% is the most important stat for a QB. Especially in todays NFL. Without run first offenses to spoil the stat.  Cousins Ranked 16th last season in TD% while ranking 6th in attempts. That is not good. He also ranked 14th in INT%.  If he can give us 5-8 more TD's per year and cut out 2-3 more INT's per year I would feel much better about it. I will also add that Cousins has made great strides in reducing his turnovers overall. Yet he still has that knack for throwing a game killing pick in a high pressure situation. 

 

 

I don't have any issues with Kirks INT%, it's at 2% the last 2 years. That puts him tried for 5th with all active QB's. I'll take that. I'd like to see his TD% go up from last year too. I do think that the redzone issues and TD% will get better this yea, due to playcalling.