Atlantic: Trump Excuses the White Working Class From the Politics of Personal Responsibility

[NoCalMike]

20 minutes ago, tshile said:

And anothe large group that are very disappointed we haven't made more progress, or are irritated that we often pretend we've made more than we actually have.

It's an interesting time to observe those two groups, and to compare our country to the rest of the world (there really isn't another that comes close to the diversity we have, and even the ones that do come close are way worse in terms of how they behave)

 

I think also there is an underlying fact that some people don't want to accept, which is that when society becomes more equal, ultimately it will result in less "everything" for the folks who previously had all the advantage. That is being turned into "resentment" because the right is twisting it into a narrative that stuff is being "taken away" from white people.  It is almost the same strategy used for trickle down economics but being sold to white people across the board with a bigger focus on the white working class that has been hit hard somewhat in their own right, but it's convoluted a bunch of different issues/factors into one simple (wrong) message and has equated the struggle for equality as "taking stuff from white people"  

And as someone previously mentioned I am not sure why people look at inequality as some distant memory from the ancient days of America. I am 36, my Dad is in his 60's, My Dad was 17 years old when the civil rights act was passed, not my grandfather or great great great grandfather. My Dad.  He has all sorts of stories of what it was like growing up that would turn heads nowadays.  You'd think he was telling stories from 200 years ago. When I hear people say things like "The Slaves were freed 400 years ago" as if from that day forward everything magically became equal.....I just don't know how to respond.

[tshile]

@NoCalMike agreed. 

I think we're fast approaching a point where education and time is the only thing left to 'fix' it. People hate watching their culture/way of life/what they know 'take a back seat' (even if it's for the better, or if it's not taking a back seat so much as just not being held above others, etc) and I think that's what we're seeing.

The government can't fix that. It'd be nice if our political leaders would engage more in thoughtful discussion instead of rhetoric appealing to people based on class/race/religion, but such rhetoric works so...

Each generation becomes more diverse and less fearful/angry at other cultures. Our kids kids kids will have a better time than the people in my generation that didn't fit into the majority (White, male, some sort of Christian) did. 

[zoony]

A lot of you dorks spend way too much time looking way too deep.

 

Here's a ****ing idea for the Dems.  how about at least TALKING to the working class?  You know, get off your elitist ass, leave either coast, and go try a few rallies in the rustbelt, rural south, and midwest.  Talk to them.  they'll be interested in what you had to say and appreciate you trying.  that might be a start.  I know, crazy talk.  Let's talk more about how the entire center of the country is ignorant, entitled, inbred white trash so you can feel better about your own miserable lives stuck on either coast sitting in traffic living in a ****ty house you can't afford.

Take a look at Hillary's campaign schedule, then realize you've written a mother****ing Harvard Doctoral Thesis when an 8th grade term paper would do.

 

[NoCalMike]

6 minutes ago, zoony said:

A lot of you dorks spend way too much time looking way too deep.

 

Here's a ****ing idea for the Dems.  how about at least TALKING to the working class?  You know, get off your elitist ass, leave either coast, and go try a few rallies in the rustbelt, rural south, and midwest.  Talk to them.  they'll be interested in what you had to say and appreciate you trying.  that might be a start.  I know, crazy talk.  Let's talk more about how the entire center of the country is ignorant, entitled, inbred white trash so you can feel better about your own miserable lives stuck on either coast sitting in traffic living in a ****ty house you can't afford.

Take a look at Hillary's campaign schedule, then realize you've written a mother****ing Harvard Doctoral Thesis when an 8th grade term paper would do.

 

 

If you want to make the argument that the Democrats outreach was poor this campaign cycle, I won't disagree.  However for me it should always go back to policies first.  And I think that is the real shame in American politics that so little of actual policy positions seem to matter these days. 

[zoony]

17 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

 

If you want to make the argument that the Democrats outreach was poor this campaign cycle, I won't disagree.  

/discussion 

[PleaseBlitz]

The Baby Boomers excused themselves from the politics of personal responsibility like 30 years ago.  

[TheGreatBuzz]

@zoony you forgot to add in that when the left goes and talks to these people, they need to do so with an open mind.  And so do the people they are talking to.  Instead each side would rather just say You're Wrong without bothering to listen.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I have a number of weird little obsessions. Most of them are (thank god) outside of the internet. A few are on the internet (the disappearance of Maura Murray will consume your life if you are the right kind of person).

One of my weird little obsessions is Centralia, PA - the town that disappeared because of an underground coal fire that will probably be burning until Jesus comes back.

I once watched a documentary on Centralia that posited the question: What do you do with a town that is no longer needed? Centralia was dead before the fire ever started. The fire just forced it to be truly abandoned - which is not something we really do as a society.

To Zoony's point, Hillary's outreach to the white middle class in the Rust Belt was lacking to say the least. And in retrospect, it's obvious that this was driving Bill Clinton bat**** crazy.

But I think part of the problem is that there is ultimately no real solution to this aside from large scale depopulation of some of these areas. What makes parts of Pennsylvania or Kentucky today all that different than parts of Sicily in 1908 aside from the survival of government institutions. I've never really pulled the numbers, but I would wager that the gas fields in Ohio and West Virginia produce as much energy as coal ever did at its height, with probably 1/10th the work force. I've had this discussion with people from my home town who honestly believe the mills can come back under Trump - except the land the mills occupied are now Walmarts and Dollar General stores.

I don't really know what conservatives believe right now, but at one point, they believed in The Bell Curve. Assuming they still do, what do you do with the side of the Bell Curve that really isn't cut out for the "college then cubicle farm" life?

[LadySkinsFan]

I remember my aunt talking about how great it was that there was fracking near my hometown, all the jobs and influx of cash into the area of central PA. Fast forward to last year, and she says the local creek where my grandfather fished and hunted along was devoid of wildlife, they were finding deer and other animals dead, fish poisoned in the creek. She's not so enthusiastic about fracking now. But she and my uncle probably still voted for Trump, my uncle is a big Limbaugh fan.

Wait until their Social Security and Medicare are cut, they have little enough as it is. They are in their 80s. They have no idea what they have wrought.

[NoCalMike]

Right and that is all my bigger point. I suppose if a candidate comes to talk to your town/city/state etc etc....it can make you "feel good?" I get it. it's part of the gig that you sign up for while running for national office, but I also feel there is a little bit more responsibility on the part of the voter base (not just in the rust belt, or middle America, but EVERYwhere) that you can look past a politician just saying stuff.  "I will bring back such and such to such and such"  it is probably the easiest and most crowd pleasing line you can say to a section of the country that was driven by a single industry that is no longer there, however the truth is, that industry is not likely coming back, now or ever, regardless of who the President is, and in a lot of cases it is a good thing (overall) that the industry is gone.   

The hard work is finding a way to replace that industry with something else for that part of the country.  I am not sure if either party did a very good job laying out any kind of plan for that.

[btfoom]

17 hours ago, Major Harris said:

Can't decide which side is more infatuated with race  

I mean this 100% truthful.  I believe that the VAST majority of people, on the left AND on the right are not infatuated with race.  I believe that most people are to the point where they see people (not black, white, hispanic, asian, etc) at their workplace, in their neighborhoods, at their local grocery stores, in their kids schools (students, parents, teachers), in government positions, on TV, and on their favorite sports team.

The issue of race is just an easy 'hot-button' issue that some politicians (and those on the far right and far left) use to divide and get votes (or voters riled up).

I really hope that we can past most of this "All 'insert race here' people are bad because they do ___________ ".  Look around where you work, where you live, and where you spend much of your personal time.  When was the last time you really thought about the race of the people you see, vs just the people you see, they way they act towards you, and how you interact with them?  Compare that to what we see on TV/read in news.

[Dan T.]

1 hour ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

I have a number of weird little obsessions. Most of them are (thank god) outside of the internet. A few are on the internet (the disappearance of Maura Murray will consume your life if you are the right kind of person).

Ok, I've blown through an hour of surfing on this.  Others, it seems, have spent - literally - years looking into the case.  What is your theory of what became of her? 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

11 minutes ago, Dan T. said:

Ok, I've blown through an hour of surfing on this.  Others, it seems, have spent - literally - years looking into the case.  What is your theory of what became of her?

 

There are people who have ruined their lives over this case from what I can tell.

I've probably lost 15 hours in total to it - which is plenty stupid. I think she was pregnant. I think she was making really bad decisions. I think she wrecked her car while drinking, freaked out and took off up the road. I think she entered the woods eventually, got disoriented, and died there. The searchers seemed to assume that she would run straight into the woods from her car and I don't think that's necessarily true. And there are plenty of cases where people have done thorough searches of woods only for a hunter to find a body ten years later in the exact spot everyone searched.

Message me your thoughts or start a new thread on it (because it is weirdly fascinating). I don't want to totally hijack this.

 

PS Lose your mind on Brian Shaffer when you get the chance. He disappeared into thin air in the middle of a bar in Columbus.

 

http://www.columbusmonthly.com/content/stories/2014/09/when-missing-persons-cases-go-cold.html

[Dan T.]

22 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

There are people who have ruined their lives over this case from what I can tell.

I've probably lost 15 hours in total to it - which is plenty stupid. I think she was pregnant. I think she was making really bad decisions. I think she wrecked her car while drinking, freaked out and took off up the road. I think she entered the woods eventually, got disoriented, and died there. The searchers seemed to assume that she would run straight into the woods from her car and I don't think that's necessarily true. And there are plenty of cases where people have done thorough searches of woods only for a hunter to find a body ten years later in the exact spot everyone searched.

Message me your thoughts or start a new thread on it (because it is weirdly fascinating). I don't want to totally hijack this.

 

PS Lose your mind on Brian Shaffer when you get the chance. He disappeared into thin air in the middle of a bar in Columbus.

 

http://www.columbusmonthly.com/content/stories/2014/09/when-missing-persons-cases-go-cold.html

As fascinating as these cases are, the phenomena of crowd sleuthing in the Internet Age is fascinating to me as well. 

The case of the unidentified kid killed in a VW van accident in Virginia back in 1995 was one that finally got solved with the help of the Internet. Two people in the van that crashes into pine trees near Emporia, Virginia.  The driver is id'ed, but not the passenger. No ID on him.  The only clues...  a star tattoo on his arm and in his pocket two ticket stubs from a Grateful Dead concert at RFK Stadium from days early and a handwritten note to someone named Jason.  Last December, the kid was finally identified...

http://www.officialcoldcaseinvestigations.com/showthread.php?15990-Grateful-Dead-Fan-Remains-Nameless-18-Years-After-Fatal-Crash

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jason_Callahan

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/12/us/grateful-doe-is-identified-20-years-after-road-trip-death.html?_r=0

 

 

I'll peek into Brian Shaffer without getting too drawn in.  But yeah, enough thread hijacking.

[visionary]

 

[Kilmer17]

I would have paid a lot of money to be there for that

[No Excuses]

On 11/29/2016 at 0:59 PM, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

I don't really know what conservatives believe right now, but at one point, they believed in The Bell Curve. Assuming they still do, what do you do with the side of the Bell Curve that really isn't cut out for the "college then cubicle farm" life?

 

There are jobs in construction and agriculture. Construction jobs are supposed to see a boom in the coming years too.

 

I actually recently read about how construction businesses in Texas are struggling to fill vacancies. Not sure how true this is, but some labor statistics seem to back this notion up.

 

But taking up construction jobs, which are mostly around metro areas, requires relocation, which apparently is a concept that a lot of America has given up on.

 

Someone needs to do a study on why mass migration occurred during the industrial boom in the Midwest when a good number of people relocated from Kentucky etc into PA/OH and other midwest states. And why that isn't happening now at that scale.

[zoony]

41 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

There are jobs in construction and agriculture. Construction jobs are supposed to see a boom in the coming years too.

 

I actually recently read about how construction businesses in Texas are struggling to fill vacancies. Not sure how true this is, but some labor statistics seem to back this notion up.

 

But taking up construction jobs, which are mostly around metro areas, requires relocation, which apparently is a concept that a lot of America has given 

 

This is not just true in texas it is true everywhere  

Trade Organizations loke MCAA and NECA are actually focused more on trying to attract young people to the trades than they are just about anything else right now.

 

Young people dont want to do the work anymore.  And want to know what your average plumner is making nowadays? (Owner operator, 1 or 2 small crews).  you wouldnt believe me if i told you, you seriously wouldnt

[Springfield]

I employ several mechanics that make well over 6 figures.

[TheGoodBits]

35 minutes ago, zoony said:

 

This is not just true in texas it is true everywhere  

Trade Organizations loke MCAA and NECA are actually focused more on trying to attract young people to the trades than they are just about anything else right now.

 

Young people dont want to do the work anymore.  And want to know what your average plumner is making nowadays? (Owner operator, 1 or 2 small crews).  you wouldnt believe me if i told you, you seriously wouldnt

 

Blame the persistent myth that you have to go to college and drop $200k+ in tuition, loans, and opportunity cost at the very beginning of your career to have any hope of making a decent living. 

[twa]

6 minutes ago, skinsfan_1215 said:

 

Blame the persistent myth that you have to go to college and drop $200k+ in tuition, loans, and opportunity cost at the very beginning of your career to have any hope of making a decent living. 

 

There is certainly a high demand for skilled trades here, welders and electricians are in high demand for instance.

The local jr college is running classes 24/7 for trade skills

My BIL law gave up his white collar job to make more as a electrician.  he even tried to recruit me.

[tshile]

19 minutes ago, skinsfan_1215 said:

 

Blame the persistent myth that you have to go to college and drop $200k+ in tuition, loans, and opportunity cost at the very beginning of your career to have any hope of making a decent living. 

Slightly different but similar problem:

Not realizing what your actual skills are and making sure you earn a degree and get an education in something you can do, and someone wants to pay you for.

 

[twa]

6 minutes ago, tshile said:

Slightly different but similar problem:

Not realizing what your actual skills are and making sure you earn a degree and get an education in something you can do, and someone wants to pay you for.

 

 

Depends on the degree, but they do have value

[TheGoodBits]

8 minutes ago, tshile said:

Slightly different but similar problem:

Not realizing what your actual skills are and making sure you earn a degree and get an education in something you can do, and someone wants to pay you for.

 

 

Yep absolutely. I never figured it out. Went through college not really knowing what I wanted to do, spent all that money on a degree in "business management" which of course was just really generic. Might as well have been a liberal arts degree. 

[LadySkinsFan]

I have an Associate in Liberal Arts degree and an Associate in Applied Science in Paralegal degree, the second one when I had to get a real world skill to support my daughter since her father never did. I never worked as a paralegal, I was a legislative assistant for a short time, did property searches for second mortgages for a really short time, then entered my career as a proposal writer. It helped that I could write really well, thanks to my tenth grade English teacher.

I'm all for including more funding for trade schools in high school, not those aftermarket for profit trade schools. Some kids have a real talent mechanically working with materials, and we should be identifying and educating them for jobs that are emerging technologies. We need to train displaced workers in emerging technologies. For example, coal is not coming back, and Trump and the Republicans promising the return of jobs in that industry was a bait without even a switch.