Atlantic: Trump Excuses the White Working Class From the Politics of Personal Responsibility

[Major Harris]

11 hours ago, skinsfan_1215 said:

 

Blame the persistent myth that you have to go to college and drop $200k+ in tuition, loans, and opportunity cost at the very beginning of your career to have any hope of making a decent living. 

 

thank you.

 

it is the biggest failure of public education in the last 25 years.  square pegs, round holes...college is not for everyone.

 

all these tax breaks, bailouts....the most deserving group to be bailed out is those swimming in student loan debt.  biggest loan sharks ever.

[LD0506]

Wow, this thread took a kind of a positive turn, kudos everyone!

 

IMO a big part of the problem is the marketing of crap, of apps and "smart" phones and techie sounding things that really don't apply to most people. There has been a snidely snarky condescension going around for decades about "blue collar", as if it is something less, less worthy, less meaningful than some mythical "white collar" cubicle farm placement. The real world can be unforgiving, and the simple fact of the matter is that there will always be a need for people that can do things, actual tangible things that require you to get your hands dirty. The sheer satisfaction and joy of accomplishment in doing a job and doing it well has been lost along the way. There is a lot to be said for anyone that can shingle a roof, sweat a joint or lay brick properly, and there are good livings to be made from that, but no, drudge work? LABOR?!? We'll have none of that! feh...........

[PeterMP]

13 hours ago, No Excuses said:

 

There are jobs in construction and agriculture. Construction jobs are supposed to see a boom in the coming years too.

 

I actually recently read about how construction businesses in Texas are struggling to fill vacancies. Not sure how true this is, but some labor statistics seem to back this notion up.

 

But taking up construction jobs, which are mostly around metro areas, requires relocation, which apparently is a concept that a lot of America has given up on.

 

Someone needs to do a study on why mass migration occurred during the industrial boom in the Midwest when a good number of people relocated from Kentucky etc into PA/OH and other midwest states. And why that isn't happening now at that scale.

 

I saw a thing on PBS not to long ago about the Great Depression and the Dust Bowl.  It was focused on OK, but as part of it they talked about how people from as far away as Arkansas packed everything they could into a car and moved to CA with no plan and no job.  In OK, they actually had traffic jams from people moving to CA.

 

I strongly suspect that level of mass unplanned migration is long term a disadvantage to us as a whole country.  Over time, something will happen and the labor needs will even out, but I wonder if we've not gone too far the other way.

[NoCalMike]

11 hours ago, LadySkinsFan said:

. For example, coal is not coming back, and Trump and the Republicans promising the return of jobs in that industry was a bait without even a switch.

 

Yep. Someone previously in the thread mentioned "talking to the workers" Well if I remember correctly, during the campaign job/skills re-training was brought up by Hillary a handful of times for people and regions where the coal jobs have left, while Trump's answer was to bring coal mining back.

 

Now if I am a coal miner, sure it sucks that my job/career is gone or on the way out, however if I have the opportunity to get re-trained in more modern skills that will set me up for the future I would gladly take that option over being sent back into a coal mine.

[LD0506]

9 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

 

Yep. Someone previously in the thread mentioned "talking to the workers" Well if I remember correctly, during the campaign job/skills re-training was brought up by Hillary a handful of times for people and regions where the coal jobs have left, while Trump's answer was to bring coal mining back.

 

Now if I am a coal miner, sure it sucks that my job/career is gone or on the way out, however if I have the opportunity to get re-trained in more modern skills that will set me up for the future I would gladly take that option over being sent back into a coal mine.

 

But they never really got that choice because the FreakShow riled people up, pro and con, and jabbed their emotional/visceral response buttons so hard that people wouldn't and couldn't think it through. I tell my son, you simply cannot think straight if you're upset, the two states are mutually exclusive, shut up, take a breath while I think of something comical to break the cycle and get your mind off the upset and then, reengage your brain. That never happened this year.

[zoony]

19 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

 

Yep. Someone previously in the thread mentioned "talking to the workers" Well if I remember correctly, during the campaign job/skills re-training was brought up by Hillary a handful of times for people and regions where the coal jobs have left, while Trump's answer was to bring coal mining back.

 

Now if I am a coal miner, sure it sucks that my job/career is gone or on the way out, however if I have the opportunity to get re-trained in more modern skills that will set me up for the future I would gladly take that option over being sent back into a coal mine.

 

Job "retraining" has been a tag line for democrats since Clinton I. 

 

Yet to see it really. Just spiraling student debt as more kids are shoe horned into college

 

A dismal failure of the party of workers. Surprised Clinton had the balls to even bring it up. Not surprised voters didn't believe her. 

[NoCalMike]

5 minutes ago, zoony said:

 

Job "retraining" has been a tag line for democrats since Clinton I. 

 

Yet to see it really. Just spiraling student debt as more kids are shoe horned into college

 

A dismal failure of the party of workers. Surprised Clinton had the balls to even bring it up. Not surprised voters didn't believe her. 

 

Well I am not talking about college aged kids or college degrees here.  I am talking about specific trades/skills training for folks in the work force that have been ravaged by loss of industry in their regions.   Maybe it hasn't worked in the past due to failure of any funding/legislation?

[PeterMP]

4 minutes ago, zoony said:

 

Job "retraining" has been a tag line for democrats since Clinton I. 

 

Yet to see it really. Just spiraling student debt as more kids are shoe horned into college

 

A dismal failure of the party of workers. Surprised Clinton had the balls to even bring it up. Not surprised voters didn't believe her. 

 

I guess I'll post this again:

 

"A massive $3 billion package to help struggling coal communities transition to a new economy is sitting unappropriated in the Republican-led Congress. And lawmakers are saying little—at least publicly—about if and how they ever plan to support it.

 

As part of the budget proposal released in February, the White House rolled out the POWER+ plan to support towns and communities struggling to cope with the decline in coal production and use. The initiative provides coal country with an influx of cash to reclaim abandoned mines, provide job training to miners, reform health and pension funds and invest in carbon capture technology."

" Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and Congressman Hal Rogers, who chairs the House appropriations committee, are perhaps best positioned to lead the effort in ensuring the proposal becomes law. Both McConnell and Rogers are from Kentucky and have constituents who desperately need relief. But their comments on the proposal are hardly a ringing endorsement."

https://insideclimatenews.org/news/23062015/aid-package-coal-country-goes-ignored-congress-mitch-mcconnell-kentucky-west-virginia-obama-epa-clean-power-plan

[No Excuses]

17 minutes ago, zoony said:

 

Job "retraining" has been a tag line for democrats since Clinton I. 

 

Yet to see it really. Just spiraling student debt as more kids are shoe horned into college

 

A dismal failure of the party of workers. Surprised Clinton had the balls to even bring it up. Not surprised voters didn't believe her. 

 

You don't hear about these programs because Republicans block them in congress.

 

http://www.kentucky.com/news/politics-government/article44551113.html

 

McConnel dismisses it not on merit, but on "budgetary issues".

 

Of course nothing happens and people in KY keep voting for him anyways.

 

Maybe the issue is that Democrats suck at outreach. But they have consistently put forth proposals that would help these communities, while Rs in congress do diddly squat.

[LadySkinsFan]

When I was a legislative aide, my piece of legislation was the Job Training Partnership Act during Reagan's first term. As passed there was money for job training, training for displaced workers, and set aside for homemakers (women) reentering the workforce. There was a limit that could be spent on administrative costs. A Democrat controlled Congress passed the law and Reagan signed it. JTPA was the acronym. It was not fully funded thanks to Republican shenanigans.

 

Enter the Reagan administration to set up the program through the implementing regulation process. The first thing they did was to raise the administrative cost limit. Then they lumped the homemaker set aside into the administrative costs limit thus erasing programs for women. The money for displaced workers and the job training programs were reduced because the act wasn't fully funded. After I left that position, I didn't follow JTPA further, not sure how long it lasted.

 

Remember, it's Republicans who don't support jobs legislation, they have had the last eight years to work with Obama and all they have done is obstruct.

[zoony]

More whining

 

this is exactly the problem with Democrats. Say what you want about Trump but at least he is an astute enough politician to go to the PEOPLE first to get things done

 

every dem ever wants to gloss over the first two years of Obamas presidency, which was probably the most gutless, ineffective, spineless case of Executive Leadership since Pierce/Buchanan

 

how does one win a landslide presidential victory and then get bullied by a Senate minority?  And how is it that millions are mad at the bullies and not their leader for standing up to them?

[LadySkinsFan]

Maybe because Republicans have their own propaganda machine plus other media banging on Obama from day one.

 

Obama tried working with Republicans in a bipartisanship effort, obviously that didn't work with Republican legislators who obstructed each and every day. It's why we have anemic ACA. They refused to let the country move forward because Obama might actually accomplish something leading to a second term. Well, he won a second term anyway, so the Republicans doubled down. 

 

**** the Republicans.

[zoony]

10 minutes ago, LadySkinsFan said:

Maybe because Republicans have their own propaganda machine plus other media banging on Obama from day one.

 

Obama tried working with Republicans in a bipartisanship effort, obviously that didn't work with Republican legislators who obstructed each and every day. It's why we have anemic ACA. They refused to let the country move forward because Obama might actually accomplish something leading to a second term. Well, he won a second term anyway, so the Republicans doubled down. 

 

**** the Republicans.

 

Why dont dem leaders talk like this?

 

because they are too worried about being PC to appease their ridiculous base

 

dems need a lot more Joe Bidens and Bill Clontons. Unfortunately they are gone from the party, two old men are all that's left of tough democrats fighting for the working class. It is now the party of silicone valley and PC bull****

and getting worse do you know why?  Because none of you have identified the problem

[zoony]

Does anyone remember the big story when Bill Clinton spoke at the Dem Convention this year?

 

im talking about the big story from WITHIN THE DEMOCRATIC base. Not the GOP "spin machine"

 

it was the outrage over Bill Clintons "I had to see about a girl" line. 

 

I will type no more. If you don't "get it" after reading that then you too are part of the problem

 

if there is a silver lining to this election I hope it's that the Democratic Party fundamentally changes its focus and its direction. But probably won't happen

[Dan T.]

58 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

You don't hear about these programs because Republicans block them in congress.

 

http://www.kentucky.com/news/politics-government/article44551113.html

 

McConnel dismisses it not on merit, but on "budgetary issues".

 

Of course nothing happens and people in KY keep voting for him anyways.

 

Maybe the issue is that Democrats suck at outreach. But they have consistently put forth proposals that would help these communities, while Rs in congress do diddly squat.

 

**** Mitch McConnell.  Talk about clearing the swamp.  Let's get that turtle out of the muck and make soup out of him.

[The 12th Commandment]

I have no love for the democratic party as of late but my disdain is directed more at the members of congress who let that minority run rough shod over a president who had to be the Jackie Robinson of presidents.  If Obama had used his bully pulpit in a real vindictive way (which the right absolutely deserved) we would have been where we are now, or divided even more bleakly, back then.  He was trying to get along with a group that wasn't gonna play that game but I understand his thinking he had to try.  By virtue of being the first black president he was kind of forced into it.  That's my take anyway.

[No Excuses]

I have no idea what the "about a girl" line controversy is. 

 

I think the liberals you find on this board aren't the sensitive variety. The "feelings matter" liberal crowd are mostly the Bernie people, who are poorly represented around here. 

 

It it would be kind of fun to have a few around, but for whatever reason, the political ideologies of most people who frequent the tailgate aren't that extreme on either side.

[Kilmer17]

Will Dems act like the way they claim the GOP acted?  I.e. Opposing everything just because they don't want Trump to win something?

[No Excuses]

3 minutes ago, Dan T. said:

 

**** Mitch McConnell.  Talk about clearing the swamp.  Let's get that turtle out of the muck and make soup out of him.

 

I have no real understanding of KY politics and it's kind of fascinating that such a good for nothing jackhole has had such a long Senate career. 

[tshile]

57 minutes ago, zoony said:

how does one win a landslide presidential victory and then get bullied by a Senate minority?  And how is it that millions are mad at the bullies and not their leader for standing up to them?

 

The line we're fed is that he tried to work with republicans, while republicans had already decided they would not cooperate on anything ever, and by the time the democrats figured it out their power was pretty much gone. Hence him only getting ACA through, and even then he had to attach special things for people in his own party to vote for it.

 

Also there's a timeline breakdown the super majority the democrats have where it wasn't nearly as long as the rest of us say it was. Something about someone dying and seat being empty, etc etc.

 

I'm simply posting what the arguments have been. I'm not really attached for/against any of them.

[The 12th Commandment]

6 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

Will Dems act like the way they claim the GOP acted?  I.e. Opposing everything just because they don't want Trump to win something?

This is a good question.  I think they will, at least for a while.  There is too much anger at the right, from that left side of aisle, for putting up a joker like Trump.  These guys are professional politicians, and say what you will about politicians they're as proud of their accomplishments and skills within their chosen career as any other profession.  Probably more so when you consider the egos involved. 

 

When they see it rendered down to a base cult of personality with very little actual substance they've got to be pissed.  Wouldn't you be if some loud, arrogant neophyte came into your workplace telling you how was gonna fix everything you've done wrong all these years?

 

[LadySkinsFan]

3 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

Will Dems act like the way they claim the GOP acted?  I.e. Opposing everything just because they don't want Trump to win something?

 

They should if what Trump wants is going to ruin the country and humans.

I paid into Social Security for 49 years, it was a contract with us that our money and our employer's investment in us as employees, and later when I was self employed, that we would receive a monthly payment in return for that forced investment. I say forced because we can't opt out. And I personally paid in a lot more because self employment.

 

I don't want it ****ed with, period. 

 

Same with Medicare. Not when we need it the most. 

 

Some of you act like you're just fine with beggaring the retired and elderly just so you can pay lower taxes. Well, shame on you for reneging on the social contract.

[tshile]

13 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

Will Dems act like the way they claim the GOP acted?  I.e. Opposing everything just because they don't want Trump to win something?

Oh... absolutely...

 

Is there anyone who believes for a second they won't? We're already seeing it. We're seeing them come out and speak like the GOP did, except they haven't even waited for the EC to certify the vote this time

 

It's a time honored tradition in US politics to make sure you **** about the tactics of the other party when they're used against you, and then to turn around and double down on said tactics once you can use them against the other party. Both parties' supporters are 100% A-OK with this and encourage it, though I'm not sure many of them even recognize they do it....

 

I look forward to calling the Democrats the party of no, and the republicans telling us about how elections have consequences

 

All we really need now is for the democrats to block a SCOTUS nomination for 4 years as that very well may be the greatest hypocrisy of the coming 4 years. Though I will remain not-surprised if a greater one shows up.

 

3 minutes ago, LadySkinsFan said:

 

They should if what Trump wants is going to ruin the country and humans.

 

See, folks? Justification.

 

Everyone just needs to think the other person's ideas will "ruin the country and humans", then you can block and shut down the government. It doesn't matter if you've decried those tactics, used for the exact same reason, by "the other team" for the last 8 years.

 

It's already started. The next 4 years are going to be a **** show for anyone who actually wants reasonable political discourse.

 

[TheGoodBits]

Would Dems filibustering a SCOTUS nominee for 4 years be hypocrisy or justified retaliation? Because from where I'm sitting that seat became vacant during Obama's presidency and he should have been able to appoint a justice. 

[tshile]

4 minutes ago, skinsfan_1215 said:

Would Dems filibustering a SCOTUS nominee for 4 years be hypocrisy or justified retaliation? Because from where I'm sitting that seat became vacant during Obama's presidency and he should have been able to appoint a justice. 

 

It depends?

Did you sit around and complain about how it was their job to approve appointments like this, etc etc etc?

 

Call it justified retaliation all you want. I realize it's hard for 4-year olds to gain perspective and realize that their "he started it" bull**** is, well, just that.