Standing during the Pledge or National Anthem

[Mr. Sinister]

1 minute ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

 

and what kind of leadership it is it for him to undermine his coach that way?

 

After he made it clear that the goal was to protect everyone regardless of their beliefs. And here he comes and does precisely what he was trying to avoid

[DogofWar1]

1 hour ago, Bacon said:

You're owed the football game you paid for, assuming you even paid to watch it.

Building off of this, if you paid, you paid to watch football.  Which you saw and was in no way impacted by the protests.

 

However if you, like me, watched on tv, you didn't pay for the game.  You are, in fact, the product.  If you're not paying, you're the product.  Viewers result in ad money.  Your eyes are a product.  As such, if you watched, you've got even less reason to object to form.  You're not paying and you're basically a product being sold to advertisers.

 

The only money I spend on football at this point is fantasy league buy ins and my ES Gold membership.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

31 minutes ago, Cooked Crack said:

People mad that those kneeling are disrespecting our troops. Yet they voted for a guy who literally disrespected POWs. Instead of firing that SOB, we elected him. He's never apologized for it and his supporters don't care. Since a bunch of new names are popping up here can one of y'all explain it to me?

I pointed that out (and more) earlier and   the counter was that those are liberal talking points which I guess is their pet name for indisputable facts that prove how full of **** they are.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Sacks 'n' Stuff

[DogofWar1]

 

Don't meet your heroes...or don't put them on pedestals for the sake of a political narrative?

 

 

[Llevron]

Honestly.....if you cant use your right to freely protest during the Anthem to a Nation that built it self on that right, then when the hell can you use it? 

[dav87sc]

40 minutes ago, Bang said:

But, as you say, if the problem you have is it being during worktime, there really isn't a more stupid reason to be upset about any of it. 

it isn't your call, your place, or your right to decide how a company and it's employees conduct itself.

As consumers, we all make demands on the products and companies we purchase from.  Unless you are willing to say without exception, you have never called for a boycott, participated in a boycott, agreed with a boycott, or the firing of any employee for any behavior ever done during work, then that is hypocritical.  To say I have no right to express my feelings on the matter goes against your entire argument for allowing the players to protest by kneeling.

 

The companies, of course have the right to listen/not listen and act/not act upon what they hear/see.  As a consumer, we chose to either continue to do business or not depending on how important we feel the decision made by the company is.

 

As far as the reason being stupid, I can take my emotions out of this and look at it from a distance.  If you want to get emotional about this, fine, I can go there.

Kneeling players are disrespecting the sacrifice of our military community, past, present, and future.  And, by the way, it is not just those serving. The families of those serving also sacrifice.  I carry the TB bug, having been exposed to it as a pre-teen when my father and family were stationed overseas.  I am offended.  And I will express myself just like you do/can. 

 

If a player wants to stand up and shout "I have been wronged, and here is how.  Let's find a way to make changes" I will join him and find a way to be involved.  He can't do that on the football field(insert whatever sport).  It has to be done at a time when he can devote time and energy.

 

btw, having only a few posts does not make me any less a fan than you or any less worthy of sharing my opinion.

-Dav87sc

[Llevron]

10 minutes ago, dav87sc said:

As consumers, we all make demands on the products and companies we purchase from.  Unless you are willing to say without exception, you have never called for a boycott, participated in a boycott, agreed with a boycott, or the firing of any employee for any behavior ever done during work, then that is hypocritical.  To say I have no right to express my feelings on the matter goes against your entire argument for allowing the players to protest by kneeling.

-Dav87sc

 

Just want to point out, he didn't say you have no right to express yourself. He said its not your right to make the decision for the NFL. 

 

I wonder how this protesting would look if, instead of antagonizing the players that are using their constitutions rights, people actually listened to what they are protesting about. That's how this all started. No one would listen to the issues, so a man took a knee. Now, because you were all to ignorant to give an ear, you are all pretending to be so insulted. Its almost fair to say you did it to yourselves. (not directing this at you @dav87sc.....just quoted you to help clear up the miscommunication up top)  

[Sticksboi05]

Oh look conservative Twitter is praising Ben Roethlisberger for his statement as some sort of moral compass. Please, the guy needs to just keep his hands off of women in bathrooms.

[The Evil Genius]

Not directly at you dav..but I still wonder what happens when these football players are ignored for a year+? Kap was doing what some people are asking. He was shouting it out on social media and through activism. He did the "right" thing and no one paid attention. What was the correct next action?

 

As an aside, I would hope that the anthem and flag represent more than loyalty to the military. But it seems that is the only disrespect that gets brought up. Either we want dear leader citizens or we want freedom of thought and expression (that isn't violent). 

 

 

[DogofWar1]

10 minutes ago, dav87sc said:

 If a player wants to stand up and shout "I have been wronged, and here is how.  Let's find a way to make changes" I will join him and find a way to be involved.  He can't do that on the football field(insert whatever sport).  It has to be done at a time when he can devote time and energy.

Let me quote my post on objections to form from the Trump thread:

 

3 hours ago, DogofWar1 said:

The issue here is that this kind of thing has been happening on and on and when people seeking to have their voices heard do ultimately protest in a manner that is considered "appropriate" by their opposition, the protest is then completely ignored.

 

Objection to form is a common objection that is often used as a deflection tactic.  It suggests that the protests would be more valid if presented in a different form and that the oppressing party would examine the questions more thoroughly if only their grievances weren't made in such a poor manner.

 

But in reality it pretty much always just deflects things so that the oppressing party can push the oppressed into a form of protest the oppressor can safely ignore.

 

The underlying merits of the protests, that is, is there some sort of injustice that ought to be addressed, is not objectively nor should it be tied to form of protest.  "Are police treating black civilians in a racist manner" is not a question whose merits are impacted by whether Kaep sits/kneels or stands during the anthem.

 

So we are creating quite a major problem if we tie the merits, or our willingness to address the merits, of the underlying allegation of injustice, to the form of the protest.

 

I have seen too many occasions where altered forms to conform to some standard have resulted in nothing but the plea being ignored.

 

And while you might not intend for your objection to form to result in a deflection, the people with the power to change things, but don't want to, absolutely use it as a deflection.

 

Further, protest is not supposed to be comfortable for the incumbent.  That's the whole bloody point.  If the incumbent is compfy with the form of protest, it means they can ignore it.  The incumbent likes the status quo.  They don't want to change.  You have to force change, and that naturally means making the powers that be uncomfortable.  If you let them be compfy, of course they'll ignore you.

 

Which is precisely why objection to form is so common on civil rights issues.  Push their civil rights complaint to a corner where you can ignore it, then continue business as usual.

 

But if there's an actual injustice, then form needs to be sufficiently uncomfortable for the incumbent to actually change, and objection to form should be ignored unless the form is wildly damaging.

 

So basically, Kaep's protest and the protests we saw throughout the NFL were exactly what we should see, and the form is fine.  If the form of the protests is making you uncomfortable, good.  That's the point.  And if you use that uncomfortable feeling to justify ignoring the underlying allegations of injustice, well then, you're in the wrong.

[Mr. Sinister]

37 minutes ago, DogofWar1 said:

 

Don't meet your heroes...or don't put them on pedestals for the sake of a political narrative?

 

 

 

I rest my case

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

22 minutes ago, dav87sc said:

.

Kneeling players are disrespecting the sacrifice of our military community, past, present, and future.  And, by the way, it is not just those serving. The families of those serving also sacrifice.  I carry the TB bug, having been exposed to it as a pre-teen when my father and family were stationed overseas.  I am offended.  And I will express myself just like you do/can. 

 

 

My dad's a vet and he says it's fine.

 

So, who wins?

[Mr. Sinister]

....... The flag wins. Murica

 

Otherwordly circumstance kept my dad from being killed in his office in the Pentagon while that ass face publically declared himself a Truther, aligning with Alex Jones. An insult to troops, first responders, and real patriots past and present

[The Evil Genius]

13 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

My dad's a vet and he says it's fine.

 

So, who wins?

 

4 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

....... The flag wins. Murica

 

Otherwordly circumstance kept my dad from being killed in his office in the Pentagon while that ass face publically declared himself a Truther, aligning with Alex Jones. An insult to troops, first responders, and real patriots past and present

 

Only active and those killed while serving count. Duh. 

 

Edit..also my Dad (30+ yr vet USN) was wondering why the anthem is even played before sporting events. He hates the whole kneeling thing (and frankly I don't talk politics because he's an old school WV Democrat aka Republican everywhere else)..

Edited September 25, 2017 by The Evil Genius

[Bang]

45 minutes ago, dav87sc said:

As consumers, we all make demands on the products and companies we purchase from.  Unless you are willing to say without exception, you have never called for a boycott, participated in a boycott, agreed with a boycott, or the firing of any employee for any behavior ever done during work, then that is hypocritical.  To say I have no right to express my feelings on the matter goes against your entire argument for allowing the players to protest by kneeling.

 

The companies, of course have the right to listen/not listen and act/not act upon what they hear/see.  As a consumer, we chose to either continue to do business or not depending on how important we feel the decision made by the company is.

 

As far as the reason being stupid, I can take my emotions out of this and look at it from a distance.  If you want to get emotional about this, fine, I can go there.

Kneeling players are disrespecting the sacrifice of our military community, past, present, and future.  And, by the way, it is not just those serving. The families of those serving also sacrifice.  I carry the TB bug, having been exposed to it as a pre-teen when my father and family were stationed overseas.  I am offended.  And I will express myself just like you do/can. 

 

If a player wants to stand up and shout "I have been wronged, and here is how.  Let's find a way to make changes" I will join him and find a way to be involved.  He can't do that on the football field(insert whatever sport).  It has to be done at a time when he can devote time and energy.

 

btw, having only a few posts does not make me any less a fan than you or any less worthy of sharing my opinion.

-Dav87sc

 

No, i don't call for boycotts. If i decide to not buy a product for whatever reason other than the product isn't what i want, i don't broadcast it. I just don't do it. Whoring it out just means i'm doing it for the recognition.
For example: I won't buy Apple products. Period. They use slave labor. won't do it. But you'll never hear me on any soapbox proclaiming anything. People don't give a ****. They;'d rather use their slave built iPhone to take videos of people they think are malcontented spoiled rich ingrates so they can suck reps on their social media teats.. Irony, i suppose. (meanwhile the slave suicide rate where the phone comes from is horrifying. But **** thm, amiright? ) So **** moral outrage. What's it mean? 

I don't make demands, I don't spend my money. it's the only way to make a demand that makes any difference, and frankly, very little of it makes any difference, so usually i just don't care.

I'm not going to live my life worrying so much about what everyone else does.

 

So, the point I am making is, boycott all you want. It won't matter, because of the people who will swear to boycott with you, the overwhelming majority of them are internet rage queens perpetually offended and long having lost track of all the things they are not supposed to buy. Liars. 

 

Continually ignoring why these players are kneeling completely disrespects what the soldiers fight for, and constantly glossing over everything with plastic patriotism and overriding militarism only says you just aren't listening. It's tough to respect that. The whole idea of a protest is to get your attention, and having done that, the only thing you can say is "Do it on your own time"...   because what happens peacefully and quietly in 2 minutes before a football game overrides ever trying to comprehend why what you consider such a drastic action was taken. Listening isn't even a consideration, unless the ever expanding list of conditions is met. 

 

So express yourself. Boycott. Do whatever you're going to do. If it helps you sleep at night, by all means. If it makes you feel as if you have achieved your moral standard, go for it. 

 

as far as how many posts you have and what kind of fan that makes you, sorry if you happen to coincidentally join on the same weekend as a cadre of other folks parroting the same points.

But you do.

So I guess I'll be seeing you around.

 

~Bang

Edited September 25, 2017 by Bang

[Burgold]

I can't remember what I said when I started this thread, but this is how I think today.

 

I believe in standing for the Pledge and the Anthem. I default towards respect. More, I think that the Anthem and the Flag represent much more than any single issue. It represents our people, our history, our ideals, and yes, our military. The fact that I think it does represent all of the above is one of the reasons why I support kneeling as protest.

Protest should make us uncomfortable and force us to think or at least discuss. If we don't notice a protest it lacks value and meaning. So, while I don't like the fact that these players aren't standing the very fact that I don't like it is a good reason why they should stand. 

 

As a protest, it's non violent, doesn't incite violence, and makes us take notice. That it makes it a good phase 1 protest. Now, I think that merely kneeling is not enough. Even talking about the wrongs aren't enough. After attention is aroused, you need to present solutions.  You need to present what people can do to remedy the problem you are raising attention too.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Burgold

[dav87sc]

I am in no way saying I expect or even want blind loyalty to the military.  I agree that would be ridiculous and dangerous.

I am also not disagreeing with the concept or thought that there are wrongs to be addressed.  I can't think of a single entity - family, business, or country that has everything right and makes no mistakes.

I don't disagree with people standing up and calling attention to societal issues.

 

Maybe in my mind, doing so during the anthem shows disregard and disrespect for this nation.  Maybe I am being narrow-minded.

However, I think there are other ways/times to call attention, whether it is CK or whomever.

I have, at times, felt like there was no other option than to do something drastic, that I would normally not do.  I get it.

I can't say that I don't even empathize with those that feel that way.

For all the intelligence this game requires of its players, (no I don't agree with the dumb jock theory), I find it hard to fathom they cannot use their grey matter to find another way.

 

The hard part, for many of us white, country music loving conservatives, is we are as emotionally invested in our thoughts/perceptions as those of you with whom we disagree.  We can be equally as stubborn in holding onto our position as the other side.  I can guarantee, calling us names, insulting us and offending what we hold as deeply as what you do will not move this discussion forward.

 

And no, we don't hold everything Trump says/tweets as smart or even worthy of being said.  However, that does not mean we are willing to run willy-nilly to the other side of the political spectrum.

[Cooked Crack]

9 minutes ago, dav87sc said:

The hard part, for many of us white, country music loving conservatives, is we are as emotionally invested in our thoughts/perceptions as those of you with whom we disagree.  We can be equally as stubborn in holding onto our position as the other side.  I can guarantee, calling us names, insulting us and offending what we hold as deeply as what you do will not move this discussion forward.

 

 

Did you vote for Trump? If so, how do you exactly square his literal disrespect of captured servicemen with your vote? Does it matter that he has not apologized? If we're not cool with signs of disrespecting our military why did we just gloss over his actions?

[goskins10]

5 minutes ago, dav87sc said:

I am in no way saying I expect or even want blind loyalty to the military.  I agree that would be ridiculous and dangerous.

I am also not disagreeing with the concept or thought that there are wrongs to be addressed.  I can't think of a single entity - family, business, or country that has everything right and makes no mistakes.

I don't disagree with people standing up and calling attention to societal issues.

 

Maybe in my mind, doing so during the anthem shows disregard and disrespect for this nation.  Maybe I am being narrow-minded.

However, I think there are other ways/times to call attention, whether it is CK or whomever.

I have, at times, felt like there was no other option than to do something drastic, that I would normally not do.  I get it.

I can't say that I don't even empathize with those that feel that way.

For all the intelligence this game requires of its players, (no I don't agree with the dumb jock theory), I find it hard to fathom they cannot use their grey matter to find another way.

 

The hard part, for many of us white, country music loving conservatives, is we are as emotionally invested in our thoughts/perceptions as those of you with whom we disagree.  We can be equally as stubborn in holding onto our position as the other side.  I can guarantee, calling us names, insulting us and offending what we hold as deeply as what you do will not move this discussion forward.

 

And no, we don't hold everything Trump says/tweets as smart or even worthy of being said.  However, that does not mean we are willing to run willy-nilly to the other side of the political spectrum.

 

 

If you truly believe in the constitution and everything that it stands for in terms of this great country and the freedoms that the flag represents, you have to defend to your core someone's right to protest during the anthem or however they see fit. 

 

I said this before but I believe it is worth repeating. Until President Obama was elected there was a large portion of our society that was not invested in the US. They lived here and were citizens but they did not feel like they had a voice. He gave them a voice. So they are participating. But you can't say the flag and the Nation Anthem represent freedom and the struggle for that freedom but then as soon as someone exercises that freedom in a way that you don't like say, well you can't to it "that" way! I am offended.

 

So I come back to, If you truly believe in what the flag and the Nation Anthem stand for, you may not like it, it can make you angry, you can disagree completely, but you can't tell people they can't protest "that" way. Freedom here is meant to be absolute (as long as it's not physically hurting anyone). You don't get to pick and choose how others express themselves. Not only that, you have a responsibility to defend them and their right to protest how they see fit an they should defend your right to disagree with them.

 

 

[Bang]

Well, it may seem surprising, but i also don't like when people do not standing for the anthem. 

I do stand when i am in a stadium or a park. I play tennis often on a military base and will let the ball go to stand and face the flag and remove my hat at the start of Taps, even though i am a civilian. (we all do. Never had a single guy on the court wonder why everyone stopped.)

 

But, a couple of things.

1. I understand what Kaepernick is protesting. I agree with him, something must be done to address the rogues in the police departments of this country. Clear the bad, regain public trust. The WHOLE public. it is in all of our best interest to see dialogue lead to change. It is in all of our best interests to trust our police.

 

2. Kaepernick achieved exactly that. After his protest, he opened dialogues with the Chief of police in San Francisco, and he began donating money to various causes that were trying to help with the issue.. which is NOT anti-cop. (so far he's over 800k in donations..  all while being relatively quiet. Actions are louder, as we all know. i have a tremendous amount of respect for him and what he's managed to accomplish. It is unfortunate that the message is now hijacked into this ntional discussion about the flag, because it's just a distraction on the real issue.

When that doesn't get better, the protests will get more demonstrative.

d

3. Even if I would not sit or kneel for the anthem, it's their right to do as they see fit, and in the end of it all, it is absolutely no skin off my nose. I can choose to support him or not, but overall, the game starts and that is why I am here. We can worry about the rest later.

In the stadium i stand. if a person next to me stays seated, I stand. What they do is not my concern. It's really that simple. i can't be offended by this person if i don't care about their reasons. And frankly, i don't.  I'm here for the game.

 

4. i think the NFL has done the right thing by leaving it up to a personal decision and to the teams. for one, they have a large base of talent that is African American. Their talent is what makes the league so great to watch. The NFL has nothing to gain by alienating their employees over this.  For another, they are a large part of the 'fabric of America".. we love our sports and we love football more than most. So i think the league can afford to not blink at boycott threats, and in the end will come out stronger as a result. 

(Jerry Jones will be interesting tonight. If he locks arms,,  well, that'll say something.)

 

5. In a couple of days somebody will see Jesus in a piece of toast or somebody famous won't say "God Bless You" when Hank williams Jr sneezes and they'll forget all about it.

 

Tally ho! On to the next outrage!

 

 

~Bang

Edited September 25, 2017 by Bang

[dav87sc]

1 minute ago, Cooked Crack said:

Did you vote for Trump? If so, how do you exactly square his literal disrespect of captured servicemen with your vote? Does it matter that he has not apologized? If we're not cool with signs of disrespecting our military why did we just gloss over his actions?

I don't gloss over it.  What he said was idiotic.  Of course it matters he hasn't apologized.  I don't hold out any hope he will.  I think his personal dislike for McCain will keep him form doing that.  Just like I think McCain's personal dislike for Trump will keep him from voting for things he campaigned on.  I truly think he got caught making a flippant remark about McCain, thinking he was making McCain seem less a good candidate, and didn't realize until too late just what an ass he made himself out to be with that statement.  I don't think it is his nature to apologize, so I think he just moves forward and hopes his mistakes just get swept away.  Unfortunately, that and many more won't/can't.

 

I did not vote for Trump in the primary.  I did in the general election.

Personally, what I saw of Hillary made me shudder to think what would happen if she were to be elected.  I think she displayed even less regard or respect for the military and this country than Trump did with McCain.  I won't even go into all the specifics.  Suffice it to say, I saw this election as choosing a lesser of 2 weak candidates.

[Bang]

yesterday Trump did tweet that he recognized how important it was for the right of every citizen to be able to peacefully protest.. which is about as close as any apology anyone will get. I don't really care about public apologies.. meaningless..  learn the lesson, that means something.

And later he showed he really didn't.. Yay Nascar!

 

and for sure, let us not mistake it for what it all is,,  political theater.. throwing bones to the rabid.

 

~Bang

 

PS, i don't know that i like demanding to know who a person voted for as some sort of litmus test..  everyone has layers, and y'never know. til a person is a proven shill, they can hold their opinions and they should be given weight without having to know their voting record. Just my 2. 

Edited September 25, 2017 by Bang

[Destino]

47 minutes ago, Burgold said:

As a protest, it's non violent, doesn't incite violence, and makes us take notice. That it makes it a good phase 1 protest. Now, I think that merely kneeling is not enough. Even talking about the wrongs aren't enough. After attention is aroused, you need to present solutions.  You need to present what people can do to remedy the problem you are raising attention too.

 

That part is consistently missing from the political environment of perpetual outrage that has now become the norm for both sides.  We're great at tearing each other apart and telling everyone why we should be mad, but when you look for detailed solutions you get vague answers and philosophizing.  I understand why that may be the case, but that doesn't change the fact that it's extremely difficult to move people without a clear path towards anything specific. 

[Bonez3]

You have your whole life to protest. I feel the 2 minutes to pay respect to the greatest country in the history of mankind that allows the people to fix what is wrong with it should probably be the only time you don't protest.

 

With that said, yea, it's anybody's right. But why than? I completely disagree entirely with EVERYONE who kneels, while respecting their right to do so. 

 

It's just bigger than any 'injustice' any person or race can cite. Without our country, we'd all be in a worse place. 

[Cooked Crack]

16 minutes ago, dav87sc said:

I don't gloss over it.  What he said was idiotic.  Of course it matters he hasn't apologized.  I don't hold out any hope he will.  I think his personal dislike for McCain will keep him form doing that.  Just like I think McCain's personal dislike for Trump will keep him from voting for things he campaigned on.  I truly think he got caught making a flippant remark about McCain, thinking he was making McCain seem less a good candidate, and didn't realize until too late just what an ass he made himself out to be with that statement.  I don't think it is his nature to apologize, so I think he just moves forward and hopes his mistakes just get swept away.  Unfortunately, that and many more won't/can't.

So, just to be clear

 

Kaepernick kneeling = disrespecting sacrifice of our military community, past, present, and future. 

 

Quote

“He’s not a war hero,” said Trump. “He was a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren’t captured.”

Trump actually disrespecting a POW = That's Trump being Trump.

 

You're clearly willing to overlook disrespecting the military. You just don't think Kaepernick protesting police brutality against unarmed black folk reaches to the level for you to care.