Standing during the Pledge or National Anthem

[TheGreatBuzz]

17 minutes ago, spjunkies said:

 

The narrative hasn't changed, trump has just added fuel to the fire.

Thanks.  I just noticed I hadn't seen many people mention the treatment of blacks by police.  I thought maybe it had become more about a statement on free speech.  Sounds like to some it is a general statement of support.  Like I said, I was just curious what the message was actually supposed to be now.  Thanks again.

[PleaseBlitz]

Tom Boswell, no surprise, with a thoughtful take in today's chat.  

 

Quote

The specifics of [Kaepernick's] views are, as with anyone, a subject for debate, perhaps rejection by some or many. But I think his stature has risen considerably in the last three days. This is a pattern with our President -- those his rips in his 140-character venomous rants almost always end up growing in respect while he steadily shrinks. It's a pleasure to watch. Trump's method is to evoke hate or the darkest emotions from the largest number. It is the ultimate political cynicism. But, apparently, the easiest thing in the world for a dysfunctional narcissist.

 

All Kaepernick did was make a peaceful protest, based on his best serious evaluation of major problems in society. That's at the core of democracy. His specific views may, with time, be seen as perceptive or somewhat off the mark. That's not the point. Issues of police brutality are as plain and undeniable as the statistics in recent years -- some of which the Post broke ground in documenting. But Kaepernick did nothing whatsoever wrong. The abuse he's taken for exercising his free speech is a disgrace. Trump says more dishonest, more inflammatory or, at times, outright despicable things every week, and sometimes it seems every other day, than Kaepernick ever has.  

 

https://live.washingtonpost.com/ask-boswell-20170925.html?hpid=hp_no-name_no-name%3Ahomepage%2Fchat-schedule

[The Evil Genius]

18 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Thanks.  I just noticed I hadn't seen many people mention the treatment of blacks by police.  I thought maybe it had become more about a statement on free speech.  Sounds like to some it is a general statement of support.  Like I said, I was just curious what the message was actually supposed to be now.  Thanks again.

 

The original intent was to bring attention to police and systemic brutality towards blacks and minorities. Social media wasn't working and Kap felt this was a the correct avenue. Others participated over the months.

 

I suspect a lot of players who hadn't participated before yesterday participated because they wanted to show solidarity with their brothers who we singled out by an attention whore in the White House. It may or may not be a one time thing for them.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2017 by The Evil Genius

[Destino]

40 minutes ago, StillUnknown said:

Shannon Sharpe is good enough to get me tolerate seeing Skip on my screen

Seeing, sure, but I closed that video as soon as Skip started talking. 

 

Shannon Sharpe's opinion on this was great.  Better than I've seen on the news networks.   

[Bacon]

Scanning through the Redskins Facebook comments...man, there really are some dumb ****ing people out there. 

 

Anyone is allowed to voice their rage, even millionaires, but the people offended by the team kneeling that are invoking years of fandom as if they're owed submissiveness or an apology make me laugh. You're owed the football game you paid for, assuming you even paid to watch it. Football was played. Dominant football. No one owes you a kiss on the ass and a safe space before and after the game. 

 

For what it's worth, I also believe that these scorned football lovers should speak with their wallets if they're upset. I think it's misguided and based on a misrepresentation of others' political goals, but it is their right to plug their ears and hold on for dear life to Trump sound bites about the protests instead of reading into it for themselves. No apologies will be coming their way. 

[Mr. Sinister]

Its pretty clear to me, after a day to digest this, that 45 has won, decisively.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Mr. Sinister

[TheGreatBuzz]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

Its pretty clear to me, after a day to digest this, that 45 russia has won, decisively.

Ftfy

[The Evil Genius]

7 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

Its pretty clear to me, after a day to digest this, that 45 has won, decisively.

 

I'm not sure. There was about a 3,333% increase in players taking a knee this Sunday (vs last year).

 

I don't think it will continue to increase, unless the white house whore brings the subject up again.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2017 by The Evil Genius

[Bacon]

9 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

Its pretty clear to me, after a day to digest this, that 45 has won, decisively.

 

He definitely won Nascar's support. 

 

(Those reports gave me the hardest laugh out of this entire debacle. God, it's like something out of a movie.)

Edited September 25, 2017 by Bacon

[Mr. Sinister]

6 minutes ago, Bacon said:

Scanning through the Redskins Facebook comments...man, there really are some dumb ****ing people out there. 

 

Anyone is allowed to voice their rage, even millionaires, but the people offended by the team kneeling that are invoking years of fandom as if they're owed submissiveness or an apology make me laugh. You're owed the football game you paid for, assuming you even paid to watch it. Football was played. Dominant football. No one owes you a kiss on the ass and a safe space before and after the game. 

 

For what it's worth, I also believe that these scorned football lovers should speak with their wallets if they're upset. I think it's misguided and based on a misrepresentation of others' political goals, but it is their right to plug their ears and hold on for dear life to Trump sound bites about the protests instead of reading into it for themselves. No apologies will be coming their way. 

 

Yeah. It truly is amazing. This nation was BORN through protest. The Boston Tea Party, no taxation without representation.

 

Guess all those people should've just gone out into the wilderness instead of challenge the British Empire. Ignorant, fake patriot ass dickheads. Im tired of beating around the bush. Time to call it what it really is

[dav87sc]

27 minutes ago, Elessar78 said:

It's not the medium, it's the message. BLM protests in the streets, and people say it's not appropriate. Many books and articles have been written on the subject to very minimal response. People appear on tv about the issue and gets minimal traction. Rallys? Check. What other venue you got?

 

time to be honest. For people like twa it's not about when/where/who. It's just the message and there will never be an appropriate time for them. 

For some, it is the message......for some it is the medium.

The idea that it's okay to use whatever method that jumps into my head to get the message across is ridiculous.

I don't think you(or anyone) would argue against demonstrations being appropriate and sometimes even necessary.

But, those that think that violence, looting, and destruction of property during a demonstration is appropriate or justified, take away from the message.

Changing the message from, "hey look at the wrongs being done here" to "we hate you and everything you stand for, and while we are at it, if I/we can't have it, noone can.  We will destroy, steal and kill to make our point" and requiring "all-in" agreement or you are a racist/bigot/(add whatever name here) only furthers the divide and animosity.

 

If my children don't like something, I expect them to come to me and tell me.  They find that their cause is better served to have rational arguments and possible solutions than to scream/cry, break things or tell me they hate me.  Sometimes, I hear what they say and change the answer/way I look at things and sometimes I acknowledge their thoughts/feelings but l don't change the answer.  When they throw a temper tantrum, I send them to their room until they are able to have a conversation in a respectful manner.   If their actions are extreme enough, I get set in my way and won't change the answer, regardless.

 

Personally, if one person isn't getting enough of a response, then the next step would be to get more people into it.

You can't tell me that if 200 football players got together, leveraged their money, fame and started a campaign for whatever issue, they couldn't get adequate air time.  If the real intent is to create a dialogue and have injustices addressed, then find a way to make that impact.

 

I know there are many players who individually work through local charities and do many many great things for their towns/cities.

At the same time, the players aren't afraid to use the NFLPA to advance their individual/collective needs and wants within the NFL.

Maybe the next step is to join forces and create an organization, available to all players/coaches/staff, that brings attention to such social issues.

 

The problem I have with the kneeling issue, is it is during work time.  The NFL has been policing the players for on/off-field behavior - from domestic abuse, substance abuse, illegal activity, to end zone celebrations and uniform infractions.  All in an effort to present a product that does not celebrate the individual but the collective.  If they allow players to start demonstrating for whatever cause during the event(including pregame/postgame on premises), then they create a situation that is counter to the product they have been trying to cultivate.

 

Many, if not all NFL teams have received government moneys in the form of tax breaks (local/state and ?federal?)and subsidies for stadiums.  They enjoy the fruits of the labors of the public at large.  If/when every NFL team takes no public monies, and they decide as a private business to allow political speech during the performance of the job, then they can protest to their hearts desire in manners that are allowable by the league and teams.  Until then, don't take my money, and then beat me about the head and shoulders and tell me how racist and horrible I am.

[Llevron]

1 hour ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Thanks.  I just noticed I hadn't seen many people mention the treatment of blacks by police.  I thought maybe it had become more about a statement on free speech.  Sounds like to some it is a general statement of support.  Like I said, I was just curious what the message was actually supposed to be now.  Thanks again.

 

I actually feel like the narrative changed this weekend. Cats are more upset about him being a mini tyrant than anything else it seems. Up until this point, it was about police brutality and that will always be the focus for some. But the mass majority, I feel, are in it to show Trump where he can stick it. I feel like you picked up on that as well and thats why you where asking. I didnt ready anything before this post though so sorry if im off base.  

[Mr. Sinister]

3 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

 

I'm not sure. There was about a 3,333% increase in players taking a knee this Sunday (vs last year).

 

I don't think it will continue to increase, unless the white house whore brings the subject up again.

 

 

 

I watched and I listened, as much as i possibly could. It's nice to see the NFL be smart for a change, and try to capitalize on some good publicity, but it's clear, that a draft dodging, silver spoon having, neo nazi schmoozing, TRUE opponent of what it really means to respect the United States  armed services, has gotten people to ignore the issue(s)behind the cloud of bull****, and further entrench themselves in their mental foxholes

8 minutes ago, Bacon said:

 

He definitely won Nascar's support. 

 

(Those reports gave me the hardest laugh out of this entire debacle.)

 

That was hilarious. Yeah, usual yawn from the Southern Olympics, and country music singers.

[The Evil Genius]

10 minutes ago, Bacon said:

 

He definitely won Nascar's support. 

 

(Those reports gave me the hardest laugh out of this entire debacle. God, it's like something out of a movie.)

 

NASCAR really should poll the 4 black people that have been involved in it's entire history first.

[PleaseBlitz]

9 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

I watched and I listened, as much as i possibly could. It's nice to see the NFL be smart for a change, and try to capitalize on some good publicity, but it's clear, that a draft dodging, silver spoon having, neo nazi schmoozing, TRUE opponent of what it really means to respect the United States  armed services, has gotten people to ignore the issue(s)behind the cloud of bull****, and further entrench themselves in their mental foxholes

 

 

 

In terms of political winning and losing, the Trump base is already so far entrenched that this latest episode with the NFL makes zero difference.  If you are willing to look past his complete incompetence, along with many of his past scandals ("on many sides", "grab them by the ****", the voter fraud commission, take your pick), then this doesn't move your needle.  But, as I posted yesterday, this entire thing has NOTHING to do with the merits of who is right and who is wrong.  It is entirely about Trump needing a big-time distraction this week from, among other things, the (hopefully) pending failure to repeal Obamacare (again), his candidate likely losing the Alabama senate primary, Kushner admitting to setting up a private email server after the election to conduct public business, and his non-response to Puerto Rico (home of 3.5 million american citizens) being devastated by a hurricane. 

 

So, I guess, if Trump can fight someone to a draw this week and have all of that other stuff largely ignored, then it's a "win" for Trump.

[Mr. Sinister]

Basically

[Bang]

30 minutes ago, dav87sc said:

 

 

The problem I have with the kneeling issue, is it is during work time.  The NFL has been policing the players for on/off-field behavior - from domestic abuse, substance abuse, illegal activity, to end zone celebrations and uniform infractions.  All in an effort to present a product that does not celebrate the individual but the collective.  If they allow players to start demonstrating for whatever cause during the event(including pregame/postgame on premises), then they create a situation that is counter to the product they have been trying to cultivate.

 

So you own a team?
No?

then what they do during work time is none of your concern.

You want to tell them what to do?
Then buy a team. 

But, as you say, if the problem you have is it being during worktime, there really isn't a more stupid reason to be upset about any of it. 

it isn't your call, your place, or your right to decide how a company and it's employees conduct itself.

 

All you "real Americans" sure are all for government intrusion directly into a private business, ain'tcha?

They aren't 'trying to cultivate" their product.. if anything they're trying to deal with oversaturation because of how popular it is.
For all the social warriors out there pretending they will boycott, their absence won't matter. Barely a ripple.

 

Boy there's an awful lot of you new guys here pushing these same themes the last couple of days..

 

Have a good day, Komrade.  One day you will control means of footballs production and then you can make rules.

 

~Bang

Edited September 25, 2017 by Bang

[Mr. Sinister]

Da!

 

 

[visionary]

 

 

 

[DogofWar1]

5 minutes ago, visionary said:

 

 

Posting bc it's funny more than anything else:

 

 

[Cooked Crack]

People mad that those kneeling are disrespecting our troops. Yet they voted for a guy who literally disrespected POWs. Instead of firing that SOB, we elected him. He's never apologized for it and his supporters don't care. Since a bunch of new names are popping up here can one of y'all explain it to me?

[Bozo the kKklown]

1 minute ago, Cooked Crack said:

People mad that those kneeling are disrespecting our troops. Yet they voted for a guy who literally disrespected POWs. Instead of firing that SOB, we elected him. He's never apologized for it and his supporters don't care. Since a bunch of new names are popping up here can one of y'all explain it to me?

their anger has nothing to do with the troops. Its a lie. I do not care who that offends at this point because their lies will get marginalized people harmed and killed, just like it always has.

[Bozo the kKklown]

15 minutes ago, DogofWar1 said:

Posting bc it's funny more than anything else:

 

 

 

And I bet they also wish they could have gotten him on a fair and impartial trial.

 

The reverence for that guy is one of the signs that this country is sick.

 

and what kind of leadership it is it for him to undermine his coach that way?

[dav87sc]

So Bang, what you got out of my comment is that I want government intrusion into this?

Sorry that you feel that my disagreement with the kneeling equals government oppression.

That is not what I said, and if you would pull yourself out of the everyone is a racist for not agreeing position, the you would see that.

 

If you think the NFL should be a platform for political speech, then maybe the NFL should register as a political organization, like is requires for every other organization doing political work.

 

I am merely stating the NFL, by allowing any form of protest from its players/coaches during  the course of work, is going against what the NFL has already established it didn't want in the product it presents the the public.

 

I have made no case for government interference in this.  So take your Russia comment and stick it. (I don't have the time to swear then correct the post like you).

As far as your "become an owner then you can chose" statement, then every fan should shut up about the way this team is run.  We aren't owners, we have nothing to complain about, no say in the matter.  No-one should be allowed to express their thoughts unless it is in total alignment with the organization.  I generally like your posts, but that response sounded pretty petty and without much thought.  I guess even you allow your emotions to over-ride your intellect.

 

I have actually tried to think this through and present options for ways to make meaningful changes, including players leveraging their fame/wealth.

 

The first half my post was directed to Elassar and his previous statement/question.

-Dav87sc

 

 

 

[Bozo the kKklown]

 

and what kind of leadership it is it for him to undermine his coach that way?