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Standing during the Pledge or National Anthem


Burgold

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8 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

The first step is to start REAL substantive discussions that are focused on resolutions and not party or ideological divides.

Right, the problem is people think they have all the substantive arguments and ideas for real resolutions, when they're falling along ideological divides.

 

Ever see a pro-kneeling person bring up victimization rates?

 

Or an anti-kneeling person bring up the blue wall of silence?

 

Nope. There's a reason for that.

Edited by tshile
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1 hour ago, Elessar78 said:

Oh God, you're one of those people that tacitly supports police brutality because it's on "company time". How many of our coworkers spout their political views at work? 

That is the most insane reasoning I have read yet!  Where did I ever say I support police brutality?  Not one post of mine ever said or implied that.  Your hate is truly monumental if someone disagrees or sees things differently than you.

Using your reasoning, then you tacitly support the looting, theft, and vandalizing of local neighborhoods and the murder of all police because a police officer did something wrong.

1 hour ago, Elessar78 said:

I don't think you(or anyone) would argue against demonstrations being appropriate and sometimes even necessary.

But, those that think that violence, looting, and destruction of property during a demonstration is appropriate or justified, take away from the message.

Changing the message from, "hey look at the wrongs being done here" to "we hate you and everything you stand for, and while we are at it, if I/we can't have it, noone can.  We will destroy, steal and kill to make our point" and requiring "all-in" agreement or you are a racist/bigot/(add whatever name here) only furthers the divide and animosity.

I am responding to your bringing BLM into the discussion.  And here you are, justifying the nonsense pulled during the "demonstrations" in Baltimore, St. Louis, etc...

Get a grip.

No I don't understand, agree with, or accept that those actions were appropriate forms of demonstration.  Those acts of destruction weren't against the people causing said grievances, they were against other locals who may have experienced some of what the marches were supposed to be about.  You can't spin that into anything other than something that was wrong.  But hey, mob mentality is a good thing, right?  it's okay!

1 hour ago, Elessar78 said:

"Your kids" have asked for redress from the court system for years. In Fairfax county, Moco, London when cops bust up a teen party, cops don't think of firing into a leaving vehicle?

what?  at least make your question coherent.    1. my kids haven't been in the court system, because we taught them to have respect for others and obey the law.  2. Can't say as I have heard of Moco, London? or any reports of police shooting into a vehicle of teens leaving a party.  If that is someplace close to you, I couldn't answer without knowing the facts.

 

1 hour ago, Elessar78 said:

you people bang the drum about law and order but have no concept of what law and order are meant to uphold: Justice.

wow, just wow. "you people" again.  You think that anyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't understand the concept of justice?  Your arrogance is astounding.

Maybe, just maybe, you should look at the amount of your hate and *gasp* bigotry against people who don't think exactly like you, and come to the realization that not everybody in the world is out to get you and yours.  Reading through some of your other posts, I get a sense that you wouldn't be happy or satisfied unless every white person in this country is forced to endure slavery/injustice for centuries and you had a chance to be the Lord over us.  You present yourself as equally vile and reprehensible as those you rant against.

 

2 hours ago, Elessar78 said:

no, "law and order" is another dog whistle to keep the status quo.

The continued use of this dog whistle analogy is pure crap.

Go back and read again.

I was actually making suggestions as to how the players might work together to address these issues in another way that might be taken seriously.

Pooling resources and leveraging their fame together to make others take notice, outside the football field.

But if you want to go back to the old "dog whistle" theory about code words you aren't supposed to be able to hear or understand, then go for it.

If you want to live there, go ahead.  Henceforth, I will label you "dog", for it is only you "hearing it."

 

-Dav87sc

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2 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

So how are we going to do it?  CK started his protest over a year ago.  And where are we?  

Not any further along until trump said something dumb.

 

And once that blows over we'll be back to not being any further along.

 

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2 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

There are other threads to discuss those topics.  Notice none of them have been bumped.  

Threads are living things that sort of wind and zigzag.  Just because something wasn't bumped doesn't mean it's not held as important by people or that they're feigning caring.  There's no need to "No True Scotsman" the situation.  Most of the people in this thread were also in the others ones, echoing mostly the same sentiments.

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Just now, DogofWar1 said:

Threads are living things that sort of wind and zigzag.  Just because something wasn't bumped doesn't mean it's not held as important by people or that they're feigning caring.  There's no need to "No True Scotsman" the situation.  Most of the people in this thread were also in the others ones, echoing mostly the same sentiments.

I'm sorry if you thought I meant they didn't care.  I meant that the discussion isn't happening.  When it has happened in the past, it went the way ASF said it SHOULDN'T go.  So my question to ASF is how do we get the type of discussion he says is needed?

 

Point is these problems aren't as black and white as some pretend.  There are truths on both sides of the arguments.  But neither side will admit that.  And we end up with the same type of discussion we are having here.  And that we have in every thread.  (yes that is a generalization.  I know not EVERY thread goes like this and sometimes people learn things.  But that wasn't my point.  But sadly I still have to make this statement.)

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2 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

In your sarcasm just remember that you voted for him. 

Just to be clear, I wasn't being sarcastic.  If you have a suggestion on how to have the type of discussion that you say is needed (which I agree is needed but don't think is possible), I'm excited to hear it.  No sarcasm.  I'm open to suggestions.

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32 minutes ago, tshile said:

Not any further along until trump said something dumb.

 

And once that blows over we'll be back to not being any further along.

 

 

Why is that? I know you are right but I don't understand why it ALWAYS ends this way. Look how long it too us to go from Hurrican love peach and teamwork to **** you, your job and everything you stand (kneel) for. 

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14 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I'm sorry if you thought I meant they didn't care.  I meant that the discussion isn't happening.  When it has happened in the past, it went the way ASF said it SHOULDN'T go.  So my question to ASF is how do we get the type of discussion he says is needed?

 

Point is these problems aren't as black and white as some pretend.  There are truths on both sides of the arguments.  But neither side will admit that.  And we end up with the same type of discussion we are having here.  And that we have in every thread.  (yes that is a generalization.  I know not EVERY thread goes like this and sometimes people learn things.  But that wasn't my point.  But sadly I still have to make this statement.)

Each side does acknowledge the truths on the other side, but those nuances get lost in the public arena. And once it gets politicized, then it’s about winning and losing. The reality is that these protests are working. Yes, right now the attention is on Trump’s stupid comments, but all he served to do was energize the level of protests to the point that billionaires are linking arms with the players in solidarity of the protest at the least. The protest is merely the catalyst for the beginning of the discussion, the protests will not in themselves resolve the issues, only the detractors would put that burden on them. The reality is that these protests should be serving to draw our attention back to the social injustices endured by our neighbors of color, while not ignoring the fine job that the VAST majority of police officers perform daily. But then, police violence is not the only form f racial injustice. And it seems that many want to gravitate to these high profile cases, rather than focusing on the larger ill that is a war on drugs that from the outset was racially motivated to break up the black communities. 

 

There are resolutions IF we care enough to find them. The problem appears when these discussions are corrupted by agenda driven influences and loud mouths who’s job it is to be controversial and to press agendas. If we want it stopped, the ONLY agenda must be equality.

7 minutes ago, twa said:

 

Still better than ......

Not even you believe that.

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1 minute ago, Llevron said:

 

Why is that? I know you are right but I don't understand why it ALWAYS ends this way. Look how long it too us to go from Hurrican love peach and teamwork to **** you, your job and everything you stand (kneel) for. 

 

Because the loud people involved aren't interested in teamwork. There's almost no conversation in these topics here and this place is way more reasonable than most others in my opinion. It immediately delvoves to if you support kneeling you're anti-country/troops/police, if you don't you're a racist who likes black people being hunted by the cops.

 

There's no room for progress there. It's nonsense. 

 

Round 'n round we go.

 

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9 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Just to be clear, I wasn't being sarcastic.  If you have a suggestion on how to have the type of discussion that you say is needed (which I agree is needed but don't think is possible), I'm excited to hear it.  No sarcasm.  I'm open to suggestions.

 

The conversation is had every day the problem is we don't elect leaders that want to have it. 

 

Our elected officials reflect the people and unfortunately the people need way more than that. They need a leader that will lead them, not confirm all the ideas they already had. 

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2 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Each side does acknowledge the truths on the other side, but those nuances get lost in the public arena. And once it gets politicized, then it’s about winning and losing. The reality is that these protests are working. Yes, right now the attention is on Trump’s stupid comments, but all he served to do was energize the level of protests to the point that billionaires are linking arms with the players in solidarity of the protest at the least. The protest is merely the catalyst for the beginning of the discussion, the protests will not in themselves resolve the issues, only the detractors would put that burden on them. The reality is that these protests should be serving to draw our attention back to the social injustices endured by our neighbors of color, while not ignoring the fine job that the VAST majority of police officers perform daily. But then, police violence is not the only form f racial injustice. And it seems that many want to gravitate to these high profile cases, rather than focusing on the larger ill that is a war on drugs that from the outset was racially motivated to break up the black communities. 

 

There are resolutions IF we care enough to find them. The problem appears when these discussions are corrupted by agenda driven influences and loud mouths who’s job it is to be controversial and to press agendas. If we want it stopped, the ONLY agenda must be equality.

So, in short, you think what happened yesterday is the kicking off point that will spur change?  Okay.  I don't agree but neither one of us can predict the future so I concede you may be right.  Only time will tell.  I hope you are right.  I doubt you are.

 

As for the second paragraph, how do we fix that?  Bear in mind current society.  It's not how you, or the Left, or whoever can make it happen.  How do WE possibly get past that point.

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1 minute ago, tshile said:

 

Because the loud people involved aren't interested in teamwork. There's almost no conversation in these topics here and this place is way more reasonable than most others in my opinion. It immediately delvoves to if you support kneeling you're anti-country/troops/police, if you don't you're a racist who likes black people being hunted by the cops.

 

There's no room for progress there. It's nonsense. 

 

Round 'n round we go.

 

 

Yea I guess you are right :/

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Just now, TheGreatBuzz said:

So, in short, you think what happened yesterday is the kicking off point that will spur change?  Okay.  I don't agree but neither one of us can predict the future so I concede you may be right.  Only time will tell.  I hope you are right.  I doubt you are.

 

As for the second paragraph, how do we fix that?  Bear in mind current society.  It's not how you, or the Left, or whoever can make it happen.  How do WE possibly get past that point.

You never know what spark will start the fire.

 

As for the second, we need leadership on the issue. 

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Just now, AsburySkinsFan said:

 

As for the second, we need leadership on the issue. 

Ha!  If Obama couldn't do it (a guy who I didn't agree with on a lot of policies but he was a hell of a leader), who the **** can?  I have zero hope that anyone else can if Obama could barely even move the needle.  

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@Llevron when you start seeing the anti-kneeling crowd talk about how they wonder how their family would be different if they had to grow up in these circumstances (crime, school systems, family structure, economic opportunity) because those forces are strong and hard to overcome

 

When you start seeing the pro-kneeling crow talk about victimization rates and how there are real problems in these areas

 

Then you'll have two sides being honest and there's room for progress.

 

My bet is we'll hear more about people calling trump a white supremacist, whether ratings are down because players hate troops (I don't think that's why they're down, signs of this existed years ago, and ratings were up end of last season I believe), and of course tons of random dumb **** our moronic President says.

 

Cause that gets people riled up and tweeting and such.

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1 minute ago, tshile said:

 

Cause that gets people riled up and tweeting and such.

And that gets you more clicks and ad money.  

 

One thing I liked that Trump proposed (ducks) was being able to open the media up more to liable claims.  Now I would have love to seen the Left get on board with this.  It should have passed with 100 % support.

 

Now I would have seen it used a different way than Trump probably intended.  I would have used it to go after biased "news" organizations (looking at you Fox, MSNBC not far behind).  Start holding our media outlets to some sort of standard regarding truth and fair reporting.  Our 1st amendment wasn't intended to protect pornographers rights to show bestiality (I think).  It was a check against our government.  But it must be an honest check.  If I had to pick one thing that has gotten us to where we are today, it is cable news.

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Can I get you to explain victimization rates to me @tshile

1 minute ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

Now I would have seen it used a different way than Trump probably intended. 

 

That was the problem. His intentions were clear and no one wanted to be apart if that. Imagine if he would have gotten his way smh

10 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Ha!  If Obama couldn't do it (a guy who I didn't agree with on a lot of policies but he was a hell of a leader), who the **** can?  I have zero hope that anyone else can if Obama could barely even move the needle.  

 

I say it all the time but Obama was put in position to be Jackie Robinson and open the door. Later we will get a Barry Bonds to blow the hinges off. 

 

Juicing not withstanding. 

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21 minutes ago, Llevron said:

Can I get you to explain victimization rates to me @tshile

The narrative from some is that the police are there to pick on black people. That the arrest/conviction rates are the result of a system stacked against black people. 

 

I'm not going to deny the system is stacked against poor inner city blacks (or any others for that matter) as I firmly believe, currently, how well you fair in our justice system is tied to how much money you have more than anything else...

 

But when you look at the likelihood of being raped, robbed, assaulted, killed... or other rates like teen pregnancy, joining a gang... what you see is that despite the issues with our police and justice system, there is absolutely a problem in many of these communities where these incidents that cause protests occur. 

 

There are more police in these neighborhoods and they are more aggressive in their policing than elsewhere and there's more to it than white cops hunting black folk.

 

People who can't at least admit that and bring to the conversation some element that indicates theyre aware of it (like they can recite all the other stats about likelihood to be pullled over if black, etc) aren't being honest.

 

Just like people who pretend the police are being held to the same standard (or even reasonably close) as the rest of us aren't being honest. Or like people who think if they took their suburban family with both parents and 2 kids and dropped them in the inner cities of Baltimore, that their family would just magically overcome the intense negative forces at play, aren't being honest.

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5 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

He intends a lot of things.  I'm pretty sure we are smart enough to be able to use a few of them against him.

 

We are. But that doesn't mean that we will. Currently the government and much of the population is complicit in his madness. Just saying all that to say - Libs not helping him sue the media into oblivion can At Least be argued both ways. I understand your argument completely and still don't want him to have that power. Especially as Emperor Child President. 

 

5 hours ago, tshile said:

The narrative from some is that the police are there to pick on black people. That the arrest/conviction rates are the result of a system stacked against black people. 

 

I'm not going to deny the system is stacked against poor inner city blacks (or any others for that matter) as I firmly believe, currently, how well you fair in our justice system is tied to how much money you have more than anything else...

 

But when you look at the likelihood of being raped, robbed, assaulted, killed... or other rates like teen pregnancy, joining a gang... what you see is that despite the issues with our police and justice system, there is absolutely a problem in many of these communities where these incidents that cause protests occur. 

 

There are more police in these neighborhoods and they are more aggressive in their policing than elsewhere and there's more to it than white cops hunting black folk.

 

People who can't at least admit that and bring to the conversation some element that indicates theyre aware of it (like they can recite all the other stats about likelihood to be pullled over if black, etc) aren't being honest.

 

Just like people who pretend the police are being held to the same standard (or even reasonably close) as the rest of us aren't being honest. Or like people who think if they took their suburban family with both parents and 2 kids and dropped them in the inner cities of Baltimore, that their family would just magically overcome the intense negative forces at play, aren't being honest.

 

Ah. That's what I thought you ment. Why this gets hard is because I am biased. I can admit there is a problem in that part of society. Grew up in the burbs of Upper Marlboro. After leaving NSU I ended up in bmore for more than a few of my 21+ years. Learned alot and what I walked away with....overwhelmingly.....was that you can't expect a person who has nothing, and has no hope to be anything, be a productive member of society. 

 

And because I do believe there is a system at place to keep us down, I can't even talk about it seriously with the other side. I'm immediately seen as making excuses. You mentioned part of it. Literally seen friends from 'different parts' of bmore.....two black one white get the same exact charge on the same night. Two cats could pay to make it go away. The other one couldn't and that one mistake literally took his life from "ok maybe I can make It" to prison, alcohalisim, drug abuse, petty crime, and now he is one of the most useless human being on this planet. Used to be my BEST friend. Dont even associate with dude anymore. 

 

So there is truth on both sides. Yes there are higher crime rates over here. But there is a reason for that and it's NOT race. I can't explain that to a white boy who has only seen bmore through his computer screen looking at arrest and crime stats. He won't EVER see what I have seen unless he comes here. Even then it won't be the same. And when a whole group of people are doing the same thing it's impossible to have the conversation. Impossible! I cannot have a conversation with people who literally believe thier stats show and support the idea that blacks are more violent and less intelligent people! And people, alot of people, really believe that ****. Once I get even a whiff of that in a conversation....and Look no farther than a post Jumbo flagged a while back for all the keywords.....once I get a whiff of that the conversation is over. 

 

I know that sounds like I'm making excuses. And I am. But that's been my experience. I have tried. I have gotten to the point where I either need to be the next black president to make a change or just give up and watch because I can't change peoples minds anyway. It's a sad ****ing state of affairs and Trump has made it all far far worse. 

 

 

 

 

Sorry for the morning rant guys. Puppy has me up any damn way. No sleep for the humans today. 

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