All Things Star Wars Thread

[Momma There Goes That Man]

I still love Rey and Kylo. They are the two most interesting and well written characters in the entire franchise imo.

[Mournblade]

Ultimately, the problem that Star Wars has suffered ever since Disney taken over is that directors and producers just don't care. They are not fans of the franchise -- they just see it as a vehicle for making money. The most egregious example of this is JJ Abrams. Abrams is your ultimate Hollywood mercenary -- you could bring him in to make a car commercial, a dry historical documentary, a lavish musical, a steamy porno -- it doesn't matter, so long as it makes money. The same thing can be said about Rian Johnson, Gareth Edwards, Ron Howard, and all the other stooges Kennedy has hired over the years. These people are not fans of the franchise, they do not spend their free time catching up on EU books or EU comics. Contrast this with Marvel Studios, where Kevin Feige is an avid comic book fan and has been for years. And it shows in the quality of his work. 

 

Disney should have gone with a guy like David Filoni from the outset. A young, energetic guy with talent and an unapologetic fan of the franchise. 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

You don’t think JJ Abrams is a fan of Star Wars? Like somebody that is of his age and grew up with a creative and sci-fi mind didn’t love Star Wars and have it heavily influence his work. He’s spoken numerous times about his affection for Star Wars. 

 

just because they didn’t make the movie or story decisions you wanted them to doesn’t mean they aren’t fans. 

 

 

[RansomthePasserby]

2 hours ago, Mournblade said:

Ultimately, the problem that Star Wars has suffered ever since Disney taken over is that directors and producers just don't care.

 

Yup, that’s exactly it. Aside from Rougue One, these new movies don’t feel like Star Wars. They feel like actors dressing up in space costumes playing a part. The Star Wars soul isn’t there. Marvel is doing well because the writing allows the actors to become their characters. I don’t see Robert Downey Jr play a cliche super hero when I watch a Marvel movie, I see Ironman. Even new characters like Dr. Strange are written and acted well, and they integrated Spider-Man seamlessly after he was portrayed in a mediocre fashion and rebooted a couple times by Sony.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

It’s not that the directors don’t care, but they don’t have the leverage necessary to put their own stamp on each film. It’s micromanaged to death. What you wind up with is a safe product that lacks depth. As much as Marvel films might be more successful at it, they are still very safe offerings that operate inside a very strict set of parameters.

 

More importantly, people need to understand that making a great film does not happen in a vacuum. It’s not a paint by numbers exercise as much as studios might want it to be. There are so many moving pieces that it’s impossible to predict with any great certainty how a project will turn out and how it will be received by an audience.

This makes directors who consistently turn out great product all the more impressive.

 

In short, I think people underestimate two things in regards to Star Wars. 1) How much of a miracle the originals were 2) How impossible it is to catch that same lightning in a bottle again.

 

Any cinephile should check out the DePalma doc. It’s awesome. He touches on some of the things I have mentioned here, but his stories are much more interesting than mine. 

[Springfield]

Ep 7 and 8 don’t feel like a part of the same story arc as the first 6.  At least with episodes 1-3, we knew that they were building to something.  7 should have been something if 8 didn’t completely ruin it.

[PeterMP]

I think part of the difference is the comic books span multiple generations to a greater extent and the characters have had essentially multiple iterations and versions.   The thor of the 1970s was not the thor of the 1980s so when the characters alter a bit from what we knew, it is more okay.

 

 

The other thing (that i have said before) is the star wars universe has reportedly embraced an idea that is going to make for bad stories.  The that the force us in controll and that if the force wills it, it will happen.  That makes for bad story telling.  It eliminates there being consequences for character choices to matter.  The force is no longer used. it uses.  And i have not seen solo, but i suspect as long as they keep that as a theme of their universe, the non force centered stories will be better than the force centered stories.

[PeterMP]

There are fewer obvious plot holes in Marvel movies.  I suspect that is because they do not have an inherently lazy story writing thing of the force willed at the center of their universe.

[Mournblade]

8 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

You don’t think JJ Abrams is a fan of Star Wars? Like somebody that is of his age and grew up with a creative and sci-fi mind didn’t love Star Wars and have it heavily influence his work. He’s spoken numerous times about his affection for Star Wars. 

 

just because they didn’t make the movie or story decisions you wanted them to doesn’t mean they aren’t fans. 

 

 

 

Momma, it irritates me that he made both Star Trek and Star Wars. A true Star Wars fan would have never done that. I like Star Trek, just like I like Marvel, DC,

Game of Thrones, and some of the other franchises out there, but there definetly is a ranking system for me, and before the Last Jedi, SW was the undisputed king . There has also been a long standing rivalry between Star Trek and Star Wars -- William Shatner takes shots at Star Wars on Twitter every chance he gets. A purist Star Wars fan would have never agreed to direct both franchises like Abrams did. 

[drowland]

On 6/2/2018 at 10:20 AM, Momma There Goes That Man said:

I still love Rey and Kylo. They are the two most interesting and well written characters in the entire franchise imo.

 

The problem people have with Rey is she was just handed everything.  She jumped on the Falcon and was flying it like she’s some great pilot.  Finn asked how she did that and she didn’t know.  She even was teaching Han stuff about his own ship.  Then she’s all of the sudden doing Jedi mind tricks, scaling through Star Killer base and out smarting everyone.  She picks up a lightsaber for the first time and beats Kylo who’s Jedi trained.  We’re used to Jedi having to go through training to do all this stuff and she just picks it up?  That makes her less interesting to me.  There’s no struggle for her.  Is Ep 9 going to be Rey teaching the force to the force?  

 

Kylo’s a little more interesting.  But the first scene in TFA, Poe makes fun of his mask and looking back that kinda made him a joke.  But there is depth to him.  His dad left home.  His mom sent him off to live with his crazy uncle who gets drunk off green alien sea cow milk and tried to kill him.  That forces him into arms of this shady old guy who mentally and physically abuses him.  Then when he tries to ask the girl he has a crush on to join him she rejects him.  I mean she already embarrassed him so why would she join him.  That’s another part of TLJ that made no sense.  Kylo wanted to train her?  She’s already beaten him!  What are you going to teach me Kylo, how to get my ass kicked?  Kylo is you textbook  case of a kid who goes on a shooting spree.

 

But I think the real problem with Kylo is they didn’t hide that he was a Solo.  They established that from the jump, which leads you to assume he’ll come back to the light side.  So the attempts to put him over as a villain (killing Han and Snoke) are hallow.  It’s like Vince McMahon and his obsession with putting Roman Reigns over as the next Rock in WWE.  Fans have said nah no matter how they try to put him over.  

Edited June 4, 2018 by drowland

[Zguy28]

Saw Solo over the weekend and loved it. A-. My 14 year old daughter said it was one of the best movies she's seen, and she's seen all of them. But maybe she just thinks the actor is handsome.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Zguy28

[Momma There Goes That Man]

On 6/2/2018 at 9:34 PM, Mournblade said:

 

Momma, it irritates me that he made both Star Trek and Star Wars. A true Star Wars fan would have never done that. I like Star Trek, just like I like Marvel, DC,

Game of Thrones, and some of the other franchises out there, but there definetly is a ranking system for me, and before the Last Jedi, SW was the undisputed king . There has also been a long standing rivalry between Star Trek and Star Wars -- William Shatner takes shots at Star Wars on Twitter every chance he gets. A purist Star Wars fan would have never agreed to direct both franchises like Abrams did. 

 

When he did Star Trek, Disney didn't own Star Wars and there were no plans for future movies. He's not going to pass up doing Star Trek when asked, which I'm sure he loved as well, on the random chance he may do Star Wars later. 

 

The bottom line is when you get asked to do either movie, you say yes. And if you get asked to do the other one after already doing the first, well it's a dream come true. 

 

Is Ryan Reynolds not a true Deadpool man because he did a DC movie first?

 

That's just silly.

 

[The Evil Genius]

You can also be a geek for both. 

[shakinaiken]

On 6/2/2018 at 9:34 PM, Mournblade said:

 

Momma, it irritates me that he made both Star Trek and Star Wars. A true Star Wars fan would have never done that. I like Star Trek, just like I like Marvel, DC,

Game of Thrones, and some of the other franchises out there, but there definetly is a ranking system for me, and before the Last Jedi, SW was the undisputed king . There has also been a long standing rivalry between Star Trek and Star Wars -- William Shatner takes shots at Star Wars on Twitter every chance he gets. A purist Star Wars fan would have never agreed to direct both franchises like Abrams did. 

 

J.J Abrams is a massive Star Wars fan, and always has been. He admitted numerous times while making Star Trek that he was a never a big Trek fan growing up, but instead Star Wars fan. He also initially rejected the offer to direct episode 7 because of the pressure/expectations surrounding the final product.

 

Also, I've never understood the disdain Abrams seems to attract. He's incredibly gifted filmmaker from the technical perspective, with a real eye for blocking scenes and moving the camera. There certainly were problems with Episode 7, but the manner in which the movie flowed from scene to scene, and the cinematography, are not included in that category. Hand him a competent script and Abrams will deliver.

31 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

 

The bottom line is when you get asked to do either movie, you say yes. And if you get asked to do the other one after already doing the first, well it's a dream come true. 

 

 

 

 

The main reason he accepted the Trek directing job, was because his writing partners presented him with an interesting take on the reboot, and urged Abrams to do it. I'm a huge fan of "Behind the Scenes" film documentaries, and Abrams stated many times he wasn't a massive Trek fan growing up, but instead, a huge Star Wars fan. 

[The Evil Genius]

My only quibble with Abrams is his overuse of the lens flare. That and he's spread himself to thin at times and seems to lose some control at points of his films.

Edited June 4, 2018 by The Evil Genius

[PeterMP]

16 hours ago, drowland said:

 

The problem people have with Rey is she was just handed everything.

 

I think this stems from the view of the force that I mentioned above.  The current framework of the Star Wars universe (under Disney) is that the force wills balance (and quickly).  The power of Kylo demands a balancing force (in which Luke isn't enough even though Luke is easily able to trick him and avoid his light saber strikes).  Rey is Kylo's natural balance and as such, the will allows/causes her to do things that in the normal context of reality where consequences have actions (e.g. practicing the force/fighting with light sabers a lot makes you better at than somebody that has really never done it before) irrelevant.  Despite ihs being better trained and more experience, Kylo can't kill Rey because the force won't allow it because balance will be lost.  Kylo does not use the force.  The force is using him to achieve balance.

 

This concept simultaneously creates issues with concepts like consequences have actions and muddles character motivations, but it also (essentially) ignores the history of the Star Wars universe where the Jedi were the dominant force users for mellinia,and then Palatine had decades of domination.  If the force requires balance, before episode 7, it did so only in the very long term where one side was allowed to dominate for long periods of time.

Edited June 4, 2018 by PeterMP

[PeterMP]

22 minutes ago, shakinaiken said:

Hand him a competent script and Abrams will deliver.

 

There seems to be a sense that the director of these movies at least have a heavy say in the scripts.

 

http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/star-wars/271448/star-wars-rian-johnson-scrapped-jj-abrams-episode-viii-script

 

(Now from there 2 things:

 

1.  It is hard to criticize Abrams specifically if Johnson scrapped his script for part 8.  Maybe there was a high quality/coherent story that was going to be told that Johnson just threw away.

 

2.  That doesn't make your above statement wrong, and you could argue it was really Disney's fault for giving Johnson control/authority that he shouldn't have had. )

Edited June 4, 2018 by PeterMP

[shakinaiken]

8 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

1.  It is hard to criticize Abrams specifically if Johnson scrapped his script for part 8.  Maybe there was a high quality/coherent story that was going to be told that Johnson just threw away.

 

2.  That doesn't make your above statement wrong, and you could argue it was really Disney's fault for giving Johnson control/authority that he shouldn't have had. )

 

Absolutely. J.J Abrams and Rian Johnson are writer/directors- especially Johnson, who I believe has written every single project he's directed. Abrams is a bit more flexible, and generally collaborates with other writers. I believe he Lawrence Kasdan had writing credits for the Force Awakens. 

 

The biggest gripe super fans seem to have with Abrams( besides his overuse of "lens-flare") is "mystery box" penchant, where he likes to tease mysteries with no intention of paying them off in any satisfying manner. The Force Awakens certainly teased some mysteries- Rey's parentage, origin of Snoke/his identity- to which Rian Johnson promptly responded with a "**** those mysteries, I'm not interested" and resolved those plot points in unsatisfying ways.

 

IMO, this is the biggest issue with the current trilogy- there doesn't appear to be one guiding, overarching narrative that exists alongside each movie. Each movie feels like a separate entity. I think the rumor that Johnson scrapped Abrams's treatment for ep 8 is certainly accurate, and the series has suffered for it. But i like Abrams, think he's incredibly talented, and I'm somewhat optimistic that he can deliver a good concluding entry to end this trilogy.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

26 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

Despite ihs being better trained and more experience, Kylo can't kill Rey because the force won't allow it because balance will be lost.  Kylo does not use the force.  The force is using him to achieve balance.

 

None of this is even implied in the movies 

[justice98]

1 hour ago, shakinaiken said:

 

Also, I've never understood the disdain Abrams seems to attract. He's incredibly gifted filmmaker from the technical perspective, with a real eye for blocking scenes and moving the camera. There certainly were problems with Episode 7, but the manner in which the movie flowed from scene to scene, and the cinematography, are not included in that category. Hand him a competent script and Abrams will deliver.

 

 

I dont get it either.  I cant think of a JJ Abrams-directed movie that was awful and I didnt enjoy to some degree, or a lot.

 

And the lens flare thing is so superficial, it doesnt even register for me.  If that's what gets people's goats about him as a director, that seems rather flimsy to me. 

 

A lot of good directors have a signature that shows up in every movie.  

 

Edited June 4, 2018 by justice98

[Springfield]

Who the **** is Rian Johnson anyhow?  He directed Looper, that’s it.  You give this amateur full control over your flagship franchise?  Christ.

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

None of this is even implied in the movies 

 

That's part of the problem with movies 7 and 8.  There is a lack of an explanation of how and why things are happening that leaves people confused and frustrated..

 

How is Rey able to fight with Kylo?  How does Leia, somebody that as far as we know has essentially no training and practice in the force, save herself?  How is Snoke able to out wit Luke and recruit his student from the dark side right under his nose, connect Kylo and Rey, but not realize that Kylo's been pushed enough to the edge that he might kill him?

 

They have adopted a view of the force that is at least not apparent in episodes 1-6 and that turns ideas of our normal universe sort on its head (e.g. actions have consequences) without clearly communicating it to the audience (for the most part).

 

Freddie Prinze Jr. (who has done voice work for the Rebels cartoon) discusses it some in this link:

 

https://www.podparadise.com/Podcast/1294465866/Listen/1514493697/0

 

Which somebody else posted in the TLJ thread

 

(I believe, from memory, he specifically addresses the Leia thing and essentially says, it can happen because it is the will of the Force and his understanding of that's how things works come from talking to people that are heading up Star Wars at Disney.

 

There are issues other than the above, but I think once you accept an easy way out, like the force willed it, as an explanation for somethings, that mind set probably leaks into other parts of the story telling.)

 

 

1 hour ago, shakinaiken said:

 

Absolutely. J.J Abrams and Rian Johnson are writer/directors- especially Johnson, who I believe has written every single project he's directed. Abrams is a bit more flexible, and generally collaborates with other writers. I believe he Lawrence Kasdan had writing credits for the Force Awakens. 

 

The biggest gripe super fans seem to have with Abrams( besides his overuse of "lens-flare") is "mystery box" penchant, where he likes to tease mysteries with no intention of paying them off in any satisfying manner. The Force Awakens certainly teased some mysteries- Rey's parentage, origin of Snoke/his identity- to which Rian Johnson promptly responded with a "**** those mysteries, I'm not interested" and resolved those plot points in unsatisfying ways.

 

IMO, this is the biggest issue with the current trilogy- there doesn't appear to be one guiding, overarching narrative that exists alongside each movie. Each movie feels like a separate entity. I think the rumor that Johnson scrapped Abrams's treatment for ep 8 is certainly accurate, and the series has suffered for it. But i like Abrams, think he's incredibly talented, and I'm somewhat optimistic that he can deliver a good concluding entry to end this trilogy.

 

Episode 9 is going to be interesting at that level.  You have episode 7 that seems to raise lots of interesting questions.  You essentially see all of those questions thrown away in episode 8.  And now you are going to bring the guy that did episode 8 and has a history of being able to raise questions, but less of a history of actually being able to finish a story being asked to close a story loop.

Edited June 4, 2018 by PeterMP

[Mournblade]

2 hours ago, Springfield said:

Who the **** is Rian Johnson anyhow?  He directed Looper, that’s it.  You give this amateur full control over your flagship franchise?  Christ.

 

Directors have to start out somewhere. Where would be today if Spielberg hadn't got his big break with Jaws? I'm fine with taking chance on a promising young director (in fact i was pretty pissed when Lord and Miller were fired from Solo). 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

3 hours ago, PeterMP said:

How is Rey able to fight with Kylo?  How does Leia, somebody that as far as we know has essentially no training and practice in the force, save herself?  How is Snoke able to out wit Luke and recruit his student from the dark side right under his nose, connect Kylo and Rey, but not realize that Kylo's been pushed enough to the edge that he might kill him?

 

The only part of this i don't think was explained in movie was Leia and that was easily the dumbest, cheesiest part of that movie. She should have died there imo. Think it would have been a better exit for her and a great moment for Kylo's character being that he was about to pull the trigger and backed off only to have his wingman that he told to follow him end up killing her. 

 

Rey is able to fight with Kylo because she showed throughout the movie she was quite adept at CQC and staff combat. In addition to that, Finn got in a good shot on Kylo in their fight which was after Chewie shot Kylo with a bowcaster. Earlier in the movie that same weapon blew a stormtrooper 50ft into the air. Kylo was badly wounded and bleeding out during his fight with Rey. Not to mention he was overconfident and barely swinging his lightsaber with one arm. He didn't fear her or take her as a serious threat to him. Above all, he didn't want to kill her. He wanted to train her so his fighting reflected that. She found an opening and caught him across the face. I thought all of this was reflected pretty well throughout the movie and into their fight. Rey was also dripping force power at this point in the movie having been awakened to it earlier after first touching the lightsaber.

 

As for Snoke, it's probably the same reason why the Emperor was so powerful but couldn't see Vader betraying him. Hubris. It is the way the Sith have always been written. The apprentice kills the master. The master doesn't see it regardless of how powerful he thinks he is. 

 

[Springfield]

54 minutes ago, Mournblade said:

 

Directors have to start out somewhere. Where would be today if Spielberg hadn't got his big break with Jaws? I'm fine with taking chance on a promising young director (in fact i was pretty pissed when Lord and Miller were fired from Solo). 

 

Yeah, but Jaws was Jaws because of Spielberg, not the other way around.  I was going to cite Nolan but he hadn’t really done much before Batman Begins.

 

I get giving a guy a chance but man, he swung and missed on TLJ.