Kilmer17 Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 I'd settle for simply knowing exactly how drunk is too drunk. We know where the line is for driving precisely right? No. In fact I think that's a huge issue with our drunk driving laws as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Truth. I am much more concerned about my daughters being victims of a sexual assault than I am of my son being accused of one. However, there is still issues with this. Particularly with young adults. How does a drunk college guy have the capacity to comply with this law? In a "he's drunk, she's drunk setting", why is the man always the perp and the female always the victim? It certainly is that way MOST of the time, but not always. Agreed. I'm not really that worried about the "unfairness" or anything like that. Women being victims of sexual assault is definitely more of an issue than men being falsely accused. In my original post I was just wondering how much you have to do in order to "convince" LE that it was consensual. It seems like it could be tough to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Maybe this is where we're confused. I read: "Men accused of date rape will need to convince police that a woman consented to sex as part of a major change in the way sex offences are investigated." Which seems, to me, quite different from what you're saying. You say the story is doing a disservice. Is it using the wrong wording, making stuff up, etc? Men accused of date rape will need to convince police that a woman consented to sex as part of a major change in the way sex offenses are investigated. The key word is investigated. This doesn't change the standard of proof at trial. It changes how date rape accusations are investigated by the police. It's no longer a get out of jail free card to say "she never said no" if it turns out that she was completely smashed, mentally deficient, or terrorized into silence. From the actual article: Mrs Saunders said: “For too long society has blamed rape victims for confusing the issue of consent - by drinking or dressing provocatively for example - but it is not they who are confused, it is society itself and we must challenge that. “Consent to sexual activity is not a grey area - in law it is clearly defined and must be given fully and freely. “It is not a crime to drink, but it is a crime for a rapist to target someone who is no longer capable of consenting to sex though drink. “These tools take us well beyond the old saying 'no means no' - it is now well established that many rape victims freeze rather than fight as a protective and coping mechanism. “We want police and prosecutors to make sure they ask in every case where consent is the issue - how did the suspect know the complainant was saying yes and doing so freely and knowingly?” The prosecution still will have to prove the crime at trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Wait, how does one prove that a person said yes? Pay with a credit card instead of cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Agreed. I'm not really that worried about the "unfairness" or anything like that. Women being victims of sexual assault is definitely more of an issue than men being falsely accused. In my original post I was just wondering how much you have to do in order to "convince" LE that it was consensual. It seems like it could be tough to do. In some cases it might be. Mostly cases where she was utterly smashed, or was curled up in a ball on the floor, sobbing quietly. There are guys in our society who would still hit that - but they really shouldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted December 11, 2015 Author Share Posted December 11, 2015 No. In fact I think that's a huge issue with our drunk driving laws as well. It is? I've blown into the little machine knowing exactly what it needed to say to result in my arrest. Of course it said all zeros because I was sober and the cop was just making sure college kids driving around at 4am weren't drunk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 A much needed law to make sure sleaze bags at bars/clubs/frat houses can't prey on drunk women. Whenever I go out with my friends, we usually have one person who functions as the watch out to make sure none of our female drunk friends get targeted by some opportunistic ****. A law like this might make some of these sleaze balls think twice about their actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 It is? I've blown into the little machine knowing exactly what it needed to say to result in my arrest. Of course it said all zeros because I was sober and the cop was just making sure college kids driving around at 4am weren't drunk. Multiple moving parts in that issue. 1- How many drinks can I have before I blow a .08 vs how many YOU can have to do the same. 2- What does .08 look like affecting my abilities vs yours. Our DUI laws aren't bad. They just aren't perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted December 11, 2015 Author Share Posted December 11, 2015 Men accused of date rape will need to convince police that a woman consented to sex as part of a major change in the way sex offenses are investigated. The key word is investigated. This doesn't change the standard of proof at trial. It changes how date rape accusations are investigated by the police. It's no longer a get out of jail free card to say "she never said no" if it turns out that she was completely smashed, mentally deficient, or terrorized into silence. From the actual article: two things: 1 - The definition of consent still changes everything. 2 - The current climate ruins your life if you get charged so how things are investigated is not a small change either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Men accused of date rape will need to convince police that a woman consented to sex as part of a major change in the way sex offenses are investigated. The key word is investigated. This doesn't change the standard of proof at trial. It changes how date rape accusations are investigated by the police. It's no longer a get out of jail free card to say "she never said no" if it turns out that she was completely smashed, mentally deficient, or terrorized into silence. From the actual article: I didn't know "she never said no" was a "get out of jail free" card. I had no idea. I'm OK with stopping that. I had no idea that was a way to get an investigation dropped. That hardly seems to be what this is, but I'm only working with the article in the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 two things: 1 - The definition of consent still changes everything. 2 - The current climate ruins your life if you get charged so how things are investigated is not a small change either. Yes, the definition of consent for purposes of investigating date rape allegations is changing, and that changes some things. It does not, however, mean that the accused has to "prove his innocence" - which is how everyone at the start of this thread seemed to think. I didn't know "she never said no" was a "get out of jail free" card. I had no idea. I'm OK with stopping that. I had no idea that was a way to get an investigation dropped. That hardly seems to be what this is, but I'm only working with the article in the OP. How do you read the article? I quoted the key language for you a few posts above. This is basically a directive from the British Attorney General, telling British prosecutors investigating date rape cases to be sure to investigate whether the woman actually was capable of consenting, and giving them some standards with which to do so. At least that's how I read it. The headline and some of the spin in the article implied much more, but that's not particularly surprising coming from the Telegraph, which is known there as the "Torygraph" and provides Britain with a conservative spin on the news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont Taze Me Bro Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Rape is horrible and there needs to be more done to protect the true victims. While the intention is good, I think this could open up more potential false stories. While at the same time it could prevent the scumbags that prey on girls so drunk they can hardly stand up. Anyone that preys on a drunken female for sex, should be locked up, imo. I have zero tolerance for rape, period. Now say two people, male and a female are out, meet up at the bar, start talking, get smashed together. Go home together and have sex. Female wakes up the next morning, immediately regrets her actions. Even though the guy was equally as drunk, she thinks/decides that he took advantage of her and accuses him of rape. How would he prove that both were equally as drunk? How would he prove there was consent? They can do a blood/piss test the next day, but most likely the alcohol would be out of her system so she wouldn't be legally drunk. By the time the police got a warrant issued to test the guy, it would be long out of the guys system too. Then you are going just by a urine sample which can only confirm that you drank within the past 72 hours. I guess the bartender would have to testify as to how many drinks they served them? Proof of itemized receipts from the place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 And how do you prove she put it on? That is where having two witnesses is handy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 That is where having two witnesses is handy. Pretty much why I frequent the swingers clubs most of the times. After all, 10 witnesses are better than 2. And my wife videotapes it all just in case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Everyone needs to keep in mind that this is also the UK and their rules are slightly different from ours. Apparently, there is a necessary standard before an investigation can begin, which is not exactly the case in the US. At least it's not codified in any way that I'm aware of. SAE brothers need not worry; there is going to be no change to the burden of proof in criminal trials in the US. I think what we are generally seeing is an awareness that things like "Date rape" and "marital rape" are things that exist and should be taken seriously by law enforcement. I have a hard time getting upset over that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 The other lawyer speaks up. SAE brothers need not worry; there is going to be no change to the burden of proof in criminal trials in the US. I think what we are generally seeing is an awareness that things like "Date rape" and "marital rape" are things that exist and should be taken seriously by law enforcement. I have a hard time getting upset over that. I don't think that the story, when carefully read, even indicated any change in the burden of proof in criminal trials in Britain either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander PK Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Wait, how does one prove that a person said yes? You need a signed document listing all the sexual acts your female partner is consenting to. The document must be notarized. In addition, it is advisable to have a notary lined-up in the lobby ahead of time so you don't have to ruin the mood by "running out real quick" to get this done. You could also provide evidence via a "pre-coitus" home video, where the female partner verbally states on camera she is willingly commiting to having sexual relations with you. Have her speak directly into the camera and state the date and time. Have her state what sex acts exactly she is willing to participate in...and what she is not. Whether you choose to document anything else is up to you...and her. Just think of it...nothing gets you in the mood like a few legal formalities prior to "getting down" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 I don't think that the story, when carefully read, even indicated any change in the burden of proof in criminal trials in Britain either. So, they're just improving things so that you can be prosecuted for rape, because the woman changed her mind. But don't worry, they probably won't get a conviction? (/snark) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted December 12, 2015 Author Share Posted December 12, 2015 I wonder if this makes the old gold digger and sugar person relationship potentially rape now. Looking at that wonderfully vague consent document it would appear so. Power imbalance, age difference, gifts, promise of a more exciting life, and financial dependence. Is it possible for someone in that situation to consent at all? Absolutely not, they'd lose everything if they said no. That would certainly be a silver lining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacase Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 I wonder if this makes the old gold digger and sugar person relationship potentially rape now. Looking at that wonderfully vague consent document it would appear so. Power imbalance, age difference, gifts, promise of a more exciting life, and financial dependence. Is it possible for someone in that situation to consent at all? Absolutely not, they'd lose everything if they said no. That would certainly be a silver lining. So essentially if I lied and said I was rich and would take care of her and she slept with me and found out I was broke and just wanted to hit it. Somehow it's my fault and I rapes her. This is getting real stupid. Maybe I should tweet this to hillary and get her thoughts. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 You need a signed document listing all the sexual acts your female partner is consenting to. The document must be notarized. In addition, it is advisable to have a notary lined-up in the lobby ahead of time so you don't have to ruin the mood by "running out real quick" to get this done. You could also provide evidence via a "pre-coitus" home video, where the female partner verbally states on camera she is willingly commiting to having sexual relations with you. Have her speak directly into the camera and state the date and time. Have her state what sex acts exactly she is willing to participate in...and what she is not. Whether you choose to document anything else is up to you...and her. Just think of it...nothing gets you in the mood like a few legal formalities prior to "getting down" You have to make sure, though, that she wasn't pressured into agreeing by the Male Gaze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 So, they're just improving things so that you can be prosecuted for rape, because the woman changed her mind. But don't worry, they probably won't get a conviction? (/snark) Yeah,. that's exactly what I meant lol (actually, some people probably think I did say that, which is scary) So essentially if I lied and said I was rich and would take care of her and she slept with me and found out I was broke and just wanted to hit it. Somehow it's my fault and I rapes her. This is getting real stupid. Maybe I should tweet this to hillary and get her thoughts. Lol This discussion IS getting real stupid - I agree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 So essentially if I lied and said I was rich and would take care of her and she slept with me and found out I was broke and just wanted to hit it. Somehow it's my fault and I rapes her. This is getting real stupid. Maybe I should tweet this to hillary and get her thoughts. Lol You're getting really close to a Churchill quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 1 in 5 women in the US will be sexually assaulted. Let that number sink in for a minute, then tell us all how unfair this is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btfoom Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 1 in 5 women in the US will be sexually assaulted. Let that number sink in for a minute, then tell us all how unfair this is. Please show a link for this statistic. My guess is that it was something that was shown to be completely wrong here. The problem with things like you state is that it grossly over-estimates the problem and makes every man a suspect. Sexual assault is no joke and needs to be taken seriously, but word-of-mouth assertions that make the problem look much larger than reality only make the situation worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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