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The immigration thread: American Melting Pot or Get off my Lawn

Burgold

By Burgold
in The Tailgate

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Sacks 'n' Stuff

Sacks 'n' Stuff

Posted
Posted
27 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

It's not semantics in the way she brought it up, though...plus it's more than a little scary that pretty much anyway someone decides to characterize facts is more than OK as long as there's some level of truth in there somewhere. That's how the whole "Redskin = bloody indian scalp" hooey got passed on as fact for so long.

Hey man, you won't catch me defending her too often. If you've been following the political threads for the last two years, that bolded part is definitely not me. 

28 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

The FBI figured out they were bad guys and set up a sting where they thought they were providing weapons to Al Qeada over seas.

 

It isn't semantics.

 

Nobody was killed in Bowling Green and there never was a plan to kill anybody in Bowling Green (at least as far as the public knows).

I was presenting alternative semantics.

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Jumbo

Jumbo

Posted
Posted

two of the head disp****s---don and kellyanne---keep bringing up san bernardino and orlando in defense of the EA, no matter how many times it gets pointed out that his edict would have done zero to affect them...amazing ****....the way facts are readily, repeatedly, ignored by admin his staff and followers is landmark, though we've long been building towards it..

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Jumbo

Jumbo

Posted
Posted

@Zguy28

 

You know I'm not in the club, so I don't use this kind of phrasing, but with absolute sincerity as a respect: God bless the Christians who actually work hard to live by their own tenets, and in particular, reject the trumpstuff that so obviously goes against those tenets. I like most of the stuff Jesus is said to have said. Now if only all those evangelicals who support him would find their way closer to their faith.

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tshile

tshile

Posted
Posted
31 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

two of the head disp****s---don and kellyanne---keep bringing up san bernardino and orlando in defense of the EA, no matter how many times it gets pointed out that his edict would have done zero to affect them...amazing ****....the way facts are readily, repeatedly, ignored by admin his staff and followers is landmark, though we've long been building towards it..

Well it seems to play out like this:

Dip****s: Well san bernadino...

Press: Yeah but they weren't front one of these seven countries

Dip****s: Precisely, that's why this is just the start

 

To which most people get angry about.

 

I don't, because I'm not against stopping immigration from areas terrorists thrive in, but that's just me. ;)
 

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Jumbo

Jumbo

Posted
Posted
19 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

 

 

 

I don't, because I'm not against stopping immigration from areas terrorists thrive in, but that's just me. ;)
 

 

 

 

this is a country where terrorists may not thrive, but it's a territory where "they come from" and in fact have taken more american lives other than 9/11 than foreign infiltrators, inc. immigrants/refugees.

 

i point out what i regard as the vagaries of human cognition again: it's about threat to the safety of americans, right? yet we kill more of our own citizens than all foreign enemies combined every year by orders of magnitude. in fact, americans have more to fear from their family and each other than all the immigrant combined. manipulation of fear is an ancient art, and now a modern science (and you see this illuminated when it's pointed out there's more danger of things like lighting strike or shark attack), or how the odds of a refugee killing you is 1 in 3.6 billion). there's a lot of good reading out there on "why we fear what we fear" and how we prioritise our fears and how it's easily manipulated. so for me its energy/resources/consequences to degree of problem with both safety and efficacy in mind, in the context of overall needs/threats/severity, and from a grounding in what some call objective reality. sorry, i digressed into the abstract. i'm done lol.

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visionary

visionary

Posted
Posted (edited)

I wonder if people who had their visas taken away due to this order were compensated at all for the time and money and hardship they went through to get one and prepare for life in the US (for those who just got theirs or were going to get them soon). 

Edited by visionary
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Llevron

Llevron

Posted
Posted
42 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

 

 

 

this is a country where terrorists may not thrive, but it's a territory where "they come from" and in fact have taken more american lives other than 9/11 than foreign infiltrators, inc. immigrants/refugees.

 

i point out what i regard as the vagaries of human cognition again: it's about threat to the safety of americans, right? yet we kill more of our own citizens than all foreign enemies combined every year by orders of magnitude. in fact, americans have more to fear from their family and each other than all the immigrant combined. manipulation of fear is an ancient art, and now a modern science (and you see this illuminated when it's pointed out there's more danger of things like lighting strike or shark attack), or how the odds of a refugee killing you is 1 in 3.6 billion). there's a lot of good reading out there on "why we fear what we fear" and how we prioritise our fears and how it's easily manipulated. so for me its energy/resources/consequences to degree of problem with both safety and efficacy in mind, in the context of overall needs/threats/severity, and from a grounding in what some call objective reality. sorry, i digressed into the abstract. i'm done lol.

 

Naw thats super interesting stuff and it makes me wonder even more why our fears are "directed" they way they are. There has to be some end-game in mind. Very interesting stuff indeed. I have something to do at work now thanks lol 

40 minutes ago, visionary said:

I wonder if people who had their visas taken away due to this order were compensated at all for the time and money and hardship they went through to get one and prepare for life in the US (for those who just got theirs or were going to get them soon). 

 

I would be the answer to that is no, unfortunately. And when you think about it that way it makes it even more sad. 

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skinny21

skinny21

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jumbo said:

 

 

 

this is a country where terrorists may not thrive, but it's a territory where "they come from" and in fact have taken more american lives other than 9/11 than foreign infiltrators, inc. immigrants/refugees.

 

i point out what i regard as the vagaries of human cognition again: it's about threat to the safety of americans, right? yet we kill more of our own citizens than all foreign enemies combined every year by orders of magnitude. in fact, americans have more to fear from their family and each other than all the immigrant combined. manipulation of fear is an ancient art, and now a modern science (and you see this illuminated when it's pointed out there's more danger of things like lighting strike or shark attack), or how the odds of a refugee killing you is 1 in 3.6 billion). there's a lot of good reading out there on "why we fear what we fear" and how we prioritise our fears and how it's easily manipulated. so for me its energy/resources/consequences to degree of problem with both safety and efficacy in mind, in the context of overall needs/threats/severity, and from a grounding in what some call objective reality. sorry, i digressed into the abstract. i'm done lol.

You know Jumbo, this administration has certainly been playing to (and making up) the fears of a significant swath of the population - their base- but I just realized* that they may be intentionally building up the fears of all those who oppose them as well - ie. creating terror by distorting reality, needling (or threatening) other nations, abandoning our allies, mass deporting citizens, appointing anathema cabinet picks, etc., etc.  

 

It's more than a bit scary that this might actually be their plan - terrify people enough to make them react... and then silence them.  

 

* I'm a bit slow sometimes

 

Sidenote 1:  I feel like every day that passes I find a tin foil hat on my head and I'm like "wait, what?  How the hell did that get there?"

 

Sidenote 2:  I sort of have a running list in my head of bat**** crazy stuff that has happened regarding the administration and Congress, but I'm starting to think that a lot of it is overflowing - a compendium would be a brave (and welcome) undertaking for some intrepid soul.

 

 

Edit:  I'm also seriously concerned by the (potential?) interconnectedness of different things.  For example  - Immigrant Ban + Relaxed gun laws for mentally ill + No denouncement of Quebec shooter + Moving resources to Islamic Terrorism exclusively

Edited by skinny21
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tshile

tshile

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jumbo said:

i point out what i regard as the vagaries of human cognition again: it's about threat to the safety of americans, right?

Don't be done, there's value in your posts comrade, and I don't disagree with what you said.

 

For me I see threat to the safety of americans and think there's more too it than that. And even in that, there's more to it than raw numbers.

 

We know due to research and by observing what is going on in Europe that people from these areas are not like western civilization. Their culture don't just not align with ours, it conflicts with ours. Everything from human rights, to education, to how they prioritize religion and what it says about other religions. We also know that the differences are driven by their religion and that they are very, very serious about their religion. The middle east is the mess it is because of differences between sects within their own religion (among other things, but that seems to be the root cause going back to the 7th century.)

 

We also know they don't assimilate well - see Europe. If you think assimilation is important when it comes to immigration, then this is a problem. Although you must also look at the hosts, they share in the burden of assimilation (two way street and such.)

 

South Korea has the same problem with refugees/escapees from North Korea. It became such a problem they have had (or are working on) a big cultural shift to try to get North Koreans to be accepted as people too, and to bridge that divide. They're putting them on their game shows (they love game shows over there!) and putting effort into humanizing them. But the crisis of North Koreans in South Korea is similar in many ways, and it would behoove Europe, Canada, Australia, and the US to take note.

 

The refugees (on the whole) do not want to come here because they have high admiration for us. They want to come here because their home has been turned into a hell hole. All things being equal, it seems like they'd much prefer to return to their home and just be left alone.

 

I'm not blanket against immigration from 'over there', but I do think that if we're going to accept these people then we need to be honest about the difficulties involved and come up with a plan (or at least some ideas) of what we're going to do to deal with it. Are they staying here forever, or are they returning at some time? How are we going to get them to assimilate? What do we need to do to make that transition not just easier, but appealing to them? Allocating money and putting them in an apartment and giving them a stipend doesn't really seem like a good solution (see: South Korea, Europe.)

 

And this isn't just an issue with refugees. General immigration from there is a problem too. I recall the director of the FBI testifying that the vetting process has a giant hole in that we can only query our own records because these places either have no government to work with, or a government that we can't/don't want to work with or doesn't want to work with us and so we cannot trust them. So while I don't side with the Trump administration (this is not a hole they can plug... we're doing the best we can) there is absolutely a hole in this. The background check capability of the FBI on any one of us is in no way similar to the background check for these refugees. Increasing the time isn't going to change that. Honestly, I don't see how the Trump administration can do anything to change that (which is why the "until we have better vetting" and "extreme vetting" seems like bull**** to me, to be honest.)

 

So when people tell me that being concerned about it means that I'm being un-American, recite the phrase on the statue of liberty, etc... I feel like they're being overly simplistic about what is a very complicated issue...

 

RE: the phrase on the statue of liberty

The country was significantly different back then than it is now. We had land we needed to fill/explore and people were accepted to do that. To help shape the country. That's not where we are anymore. It just isn't. Maybe one day we will be, but we're not right now.

 

No - feeling that way doesn't make me feel good about myself. The refugee crisis is real and it's heart breaking. I realize my stance seems (or maybe it just is) cold, but I don't think it's unjustified.

Edited by tshile
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Larry

Larry

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

To be fair, there was a plot for a Bowling Green massacre.

I loathe this woman though. Trump's strength seems to be his ability to identify shamelessness in prospective employees.

 

To be fair, he also has the power to turn people who ought to be ashamed, shameless.  

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visionary

visionary

Posted
Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, tshile said:

We know due to research and by observing what is going on in Europe that people from these areas are not like western civilization. Their culture don't just not align with ours, it conflicts with ours. Everything from human rights, to education, to how they prioritize religion and what it says about other religions. We also know that the differences are driven by their religion and that they are very, very serious about their religion. The middle east is the mess it is because of differences between sects within their own religion (among other things, but that seems to be the root cause going back to the 7th century.)

 A lot of the people being turned away are families trying to provide for their children and keep them safe like any parents would, and children and young educated people not much different than any of us.   That said taking people from rural areas of any country and plopping them down in another country or even somewhere different in the same country is bound to result in issues.  Keep in mind though a lot of these people already have family and relatives and friends living here.  Also this isn't the same thing as the refugee situation in Europe, which is much much more chaotic.

Edited by visionary
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Larry

Larry

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Jumbo said:

 

 

 

this is a country where terrorists may not thrive, but it's a territory where "they come from" and in fact have taken more american lives other than 9/11 than foreign infiltrators, inc. immigrants/refugees.

 

I recall some comic doing a routine, along the lines of: 

 

Hey, our country just hit a landmark.  We just approved a budget, where we spend a billion dollars on defense.  

 

Just imagine that.  A billion dollars.  Wow.  that's a lot of money.  A billion dollars.  And for what?  To defend us from the Russians.  A billion dollars.  

 

When was the last time a Russian broke into your car and stole the stereo?  

 

What I want to know is, when is the government gonna start protecting me from Americans?  For a billion dollars, I want to be protected from Americans.  

 

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visionary

visionary

Posted
Posted (edited)

 

Quote

 

Hours before Donald Trump signed an executive order halting all refugees’ admission to the United States, and banning immigration from seven Muslim-majority nations, including Syria, Sohir, a forty-four-year-old woman living in Istanbul, was imagining a reunion in America with her son. (Sohir, like other refugees interviewed for this article, requested that her full name not be used, out of fear of jeopardizing her resettlement case.) “I think I’m going to Los Angeles, because my sponsor is there. But I can then go to him in Philadelphia,” she said on Friday. “I won’t bother him in his daily life, but I’ll be close to him if he needs me or if I miss him.”

 

Sohir had been apart from seventeen-year-old Mohamed, her only child, since September, when he left Istanbul to finish high school in the United States. In 2013, Sohir and Mohamed fled the war-torn city of Homs. They slept on friends’ couches in Istanbul for months, finally saving enough money to rent a closet-sized apartment, where Sohir now lives by herself. “I really feel so lonely without him,” she said.

 

Sohir, who studied journalism at Damascus University, became worried enough to look for alternatives. She encouraged Mohamed to apply for a scholarship that enabled him to file for a student visa to the U.S. He received the visa in August, in the final weeks of the Presidential campaign.

When we spoke on Friday, at a Syrian community center in central Istanbul, where she works, Sohir told me she had heard the rumors about Trump’s immigration orders. But she was trying to stay positive. Even if she were barred from the U.S., she wanted Mohamed to stay there as long as he legally could. “The important thing is for him to make a life,” she said. “He has good grades, and I think his life there will be better than any other place. I hope he can finish high school and college there.”

 

Quote

 

Across the city, just beyond the waters of Istanbul’s iconic Golden Horn, two Syrian sisters living in the conservative neighborhood of Fatih had just learned that their plans to resettle in the U.S. would be halted by Trump’s order. “Isn’t Donald Trump’s wife an immigrant? How can he do what he’s doing?” Rana (a pseudonym), who is twenty-five, asked. She had been a year away from an engineering degree when she and her family fled the war, in 2014. “There was no water, no electricity, no life,” she said, describing the situation in Damascus. “We couldn’t stay.”

 

Rana sat at a crowded hookah bar with her eighteen-year-old sister, Leen. “We are all so depressed,” Rana said. “My parents worked their whole lives to teach us and give us a good future. And now they’re seeing us sitting around doing nothing.”

 

Rana and her family completed their cultural-orientation course last March, and, like Sohir and Mohamed, they spent the months that followed waiting for news about their flights. When Rana still hadn’t heard anything by May, she called the refugee agency managing her family’s case, and was reassured that her family would eventually be issued plane tickets to Chicago.

 

Rana programmed Chicago’s weather on her phone (thirty-one degrees and overcast on Friday). Leen doubled down on her refusal to learn Turkish or pursue friendships in Istanbul. She prefers to chat with Facebook friends in Brooklyn, whom she gets along with better than her conservative neighbors. “I don’t feel like I belong here. I skateboard, I play electric guitar,” she said, with a flawless American accent. “Everyone stares at me, like, ‘What are you doing?’ I can’t wait to go to America.”

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by visionary
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