The immigration thread: American Melting Pot or Get off my Lawn

[Cooked Crack]

Quote

In some cases, passport applicants with official U.S. birth certificates are being jailed in immigration detention centers and entered into deportation proceedings. In others, they are stuck in Mexico, their passports suddenly revoked when they tried to reenter the United States. As the Trump administration attempts to reduce both legal and illegal immigration, the government’s treatment of passport applicants in South Texas shows how U.S. citizens are increasingly being swept up by immigration enforcement agencies.

 

Juan said he was infuriated by the government’s response. “I served my country. I fought for my country,” he said, speaking on the condition that his last name not be used so that he wouldn’t be targeted by immigration enforcement.

 

Not a racist but he sure loves racist policies.

 

Edit: Since we're on a new page

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by Cooked Crack

[TheGreatBuzz]

Meh.  Everyone know the Washington Post is just a liberal rag.

[Destino]

48 minutes ago, visionary said:

 

I knew this was coming and I'm pretty sure that I mentioned long ago that one of the issues they'd run into is that the US doesn't have a list of US citizens.  They rely on people proving they are who they say they are... which also means the government can deny their claim.  Let's look at poor Juan from your article:

 

Who is Juan? 

Quote

Juan said he was infuriated by the government’s response. “I served my country. I fought for my country,” he said, speaking on the condition that his last name not be used so that he wouldn’t be targeted by immigration enforcement.

 

...

 

“I thought to myself, you know, I’m going to have to seek legal help,” said Juan, who earns $13 an hour as a prison guard and expects to pay several thousand dollars in legal fees.

Juan is a former US soldier that now works as a prison guard.  A Real American background, the sort Republicans enjoy, if there ever was one.  But now Juan can't even go on the record discussing his paperwork disagreement for fear that ICE will kick his door down and throw him in a detention center.  Probably the sort of thing prison guards have nightmares about.  

 

So what did the government ask from Juan if his birth certificate wasn't good enough?  Let's pause for a moment and remember that until now that certificate was good enough to get him ID, into the military, employed, and paying taxes.  Now they want the following:

Quote

When Juan, the former soldier, received a letter from the State Department telling him it wasn’t convinced that he was a U.S. citizen, it requested a range of obscure documents — evidence of his mother’s prenatal care, his baptismal certificate, rental agreements from when he was a baby.

 

How many of you reading this, have any of that? I imagine a baptismal certificate might be common enough, though entirely meaningless. It's not like the churches would have asked for more than his birth certificate (if that) which we've already established is meaningless.  Anyone keep their mom's healthcare receipts from around the time they were born?  Anyone still have their parents rental agreements from when they were infants?  Not a lot of sentimental value in those. 

 

[Cooked Crack]

Republicans will give zero cares since they aren't doing it to white folk. Being a veteran or an actual American doesn't matter. Trump will still be doing right on immigration in their eyes. Now lets get back to the real disrespect of veterans.... protesting during the anthem.

[bearrock]

I wonder if the ACLU might try to make a few Bivens action out of these cases

[Bozo the kKklown]

17 hours ago, Cooked Crack said:

 

Not a racist but he sure loves racist policies.

 

Edit: Since we're on a new page

 

 

 

This is so infuriating. 

 

I can't even wrap my head around this, but it is not surprising. The white supremacists are doing anything in their power to bring about fascism and make sure the country is still majority white.

[The Evil Genius]

Boomers are in whole, going to remembered as a ****ing evil ass generation. Wish they'd go quietly into the night.

 

This bs about legal cititzens being refused passports is ****ing petty even for douchebag tp'ers. GTFO with this bull**** racism.

[Jumbo]

yup--we are seeing quite openly the organization and empowerment of all the racially bigoted whites---from the wealthy/elite ala devos/murdoch/mercers to the "joe six pack"s---especially male and no college demographics, to all their fringe groups---doing all they can to protect and advance white (xtian) dominance and extend suppression/restriction of people of color's numbers, participation, and influence on society

 

 

i intend to keep over-riding these kind of bigoted assholes, often with harsh---but legal---action in every venue/situation possible

[twa]

6 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

.

 

This bs about legal cititzens being refused passports is ****ing petty even for douchebag tp'ers. GTFO with this bull**** racism.

 

When we know birth certificates have been issued illegally should it just be ignored?

I do think the evidence should show that before denying passports though.

 

 

[Bozo the kKklown]

42 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

yup--we are seeing quite openly the organization and empowerment of all the racially bigoted whites---from the wealthy/elite ala devos/murdoch/mercers to the "joe six pack"s---especially male and no college demographics, to all their fringe groups---doing all they can to protect and advance white (xtian) dominance and extend suppression/restriction of people of color's numbers, participation, and influence on society

 

 

i intend to keep over-riding these kind of bigoted assholes, often with harsh---but legal---action in every venue/situation possible

Trump's presidency is white supremacy's last stand in that this is the final effort to try and keep this.

 

If we get through this, the terrorist white supremacist groups need to be infiltrated and eradicated. (crazy, these groups have killed more people than any other group combined yet the government focuses on BLM, Antifa, and minority empowerment groups. I wonder why?)

 

And we need to out those that are funding these groups and make their existence difficult. The Joe The Faux Plumber types just follow the wind.

[Destino]

2 hours ago, twa said:

When we know birth certificates have been issued illegally should it just be ignored?

In many cases yes.  Throwing out a person that spent their entire life as an American because their parents, who may be dead, committed fraud is trying to right a wrong with a greater wrong.  They may not even have legal citizenship elsewhere.  If they forged a document for themselves, I have no problem with it being challenged.  These cases won’t all be the same, so there shouldn’t be a one size fits all approach.

 

2 hours ago, twa said:

I do think the evidence should show that before denying passports though.

Absolutely.  They should have the burden of proof and need to make their case in a court of law.  Stripping someone of citizenship is no small thing.  

[twa]

15 minutes ago, Destino said:

In many cases yes.

 

I disagree, I see it as no different than money or possessions stolen by their parents and left to them that needs to be returned.

 

I would be open to allowing them visas/legal status here.

 

[LD0506]

3 hours ago, Jumbo said:

yup--we are seeing quite openly the organization and empowerment of all the racially bigoted whites---from the wealthy/elite ala devos/murdoch/mercers to the "joe six pack"s---especially male and no college demographics, to all their fringe groups---doing all they can to protect and advance white (xtian) dominance and extend suppression/restriction of people of color's numbers, participation, and influence on society

 

 

i intend to keep over-riding these kind of bigoted assholes, often with harsh---but legal---action in every venue/situation possible

 

PS: Oh dear Gawd! I went and looked (really shouldn't have) it's worse than ya think......

 

Quote

We believe that no multi-racial society can be a truly healthy society, and no government which is not wholly responsible to a single racial entity can be a good government. America’s present deterioration stems from her loss of racial homogeneity and racial consciousness, and from the consequent alienation of most of our fellow citizens.

 

Nary a figleaf, overt neoNazi horse**** again......... this **** needs to be exterminated

Edited August 30, 2018 by LD0506

[Hersh]

20 minutes ago, twa said:

 

I disagree, I see it as no different than money or possessions stolen by their parents and left to them that needs to be returned.

 

I would be open to allowing them visas/legal status here.

 

 

This speaks to your character. Make no mistake, it does not speak anything positive.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Hersh

[twa]

10 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

This speaks to your character. Make no mistake, it does not speak anything positive.

 

And your post speaks to yours.

[Destino]

17 minutes ago, twa said:

 

I disagree, I see it as no different than money or possessions stolen by their parents and left to them that needs to be returned.

 

I would be open to allowing them visas/legal status here.

 

It’s entirely different.  Identity, culture, and an entire life up until this point can’t simply be undone as simply as property can be restored. They’re American in every way that matters at this point.  Americans are their people and American culture is their culture (even if American race politics tricks them into thinking otherwise.). 

[twa]

Just now, Destino said:

It’s entirely different.  Identity, culture, and an entire life up until this point can’t simply be undone as simply as property can be restored. They’re American in every way that matters at this point.  Americans are their people and American culture is their culture (even if American race politics tricks them into thinking otherwise.). 

 

Last I checked none of those things change,our obligations on the other hand can.

I agree leniency and mercy need to factor in, but the constant push to ignore/subvert law is tiresome.

[Destino]

Just now, twa said:

 

Last I checked none of those things change,our obligations on the other hand can.

I agree leniency and mercy need to factor in, but the constant push to ignore/subvert law is tiresome.

I have no interest in subverting laws, I just have a clearer view of who is responsible for breaking it and who isn’t.  Would you charge a toddler as an accomplice if found strapped in baby seat of the getaway car? These people broke no laws.  They had no say in what was done to them.  

 

There is no stolen property to restore.  There is no criminal to punish. The only thing that remains to be decided is what we do now.  Do we send exile an innocent American to a foreign country, or do we choose the only available option that doesn’t cause further harm.

 

 

[twa]

4 minutes ago, Destino said:

  

 

There is no stolen property to restore.  There is no criminal to punish. The only thing that remains to be decided is what we do now.  Do we send exile an innocent American to a foreign country, or do we choose the only available option that doesn’t cause further harm.

 

 

 

I offered a 3rd option

 

[Jumbo]

i still like my  social democratist idea of taking all monies/properties from trump supporters and transferring them directly to undocumented people (or animals), family per family, and shipping the don-pawns off to new lands and adventures wherever they may find them......send them in actual boats....or boat-like objects, whatever's handy---stuff that will float or almost float......or just set them in the water when the tide's going out...

 

 

but i digress

 

 

 

 

 

[Destino]

1 hour ago, twa said:

I offered a 3rd option

Your third option leaves this person legally exposed to penalties surrounding legal and employment documents they marked "citizen" among other consequences.  It adds cost, further stresses an over worked immigration system, and leaves this person in immigration limbo as ambiguous legal status and visas can be revoked at anytime. 

 

All of these punitive steps serve no purpose.  No one benefits from any of that.  All it does is create hardships and uncertainty for someone that did nothing wrong. 

 

I understand where you're coming from.  The system is in shambles and everywhere you look there's a sanctuary city and special exceptions granted for this, that, and the other thing.  I get it, but targeting people that did nothing wrong isn't going to fix anything.  All it's going to do is increase support for the opposition and preserve the status quo. 

[bearrock]

Adverse possession, statute of limitations/laches would factor in if you treated it like property.  What about estoppel for those who served in the military?  This should be such a low priority issue in my view (low priority from the govt's perspective).  Also, it doesn't seem like the govt can prove their suspicion, so they are putting up roadblocks that are not usual procedure.

[Riggo-toni]

5 hours ago, twa said:

 

When we know birth certificates have been issued illegally should it just be ignored?

I do think the evidence should show that before denying passports though.

 

 

A midwife who delivered 600+ babies confessed to falsifying...2.

A Gynecologist after his death is accused of falsifying a birth certificate.

And the possibility that a fraction of a percent of these births might have occurred across the border justifies revoking the rights of citizenship to everyone who, through no fault of his own, has a connection to either the midwife or the Dr in question - presumed "guilty" until (and in some cases despite) proven innocent.

It's even more ridiculous than your contention that a few dozen cases of voter fraud over the last several decades justifies denying millions the right to vote.

 

[twa]

I stipulated the burden of proof should be on the govt.

[Larry]

2 hours ago, twa said:

 

Last I checked none of those things change,our obligations on the other hand can.

I agree leniency and mercy need to factor in, but the constant push to ignore/subvert law is tiresome.

 

So stop trying to ignore and subvert the law. 

 

Like these laws:  

 

Quote

All persons born in the United States .... are citizens thereof. 

 

Quote

No person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law. 

 

Or if you really want to try to argue that a rumor that somebody, somewhere, might have broken the law, therefore we should revoke citizenship of every person who was ever born there, feel free to try this one. 

 

All persons with a Texas birth certificate hereby become non-citizens, until they jump through the same hoops being required of these people to bribe that their birth certificate wasn't faked before they were born. 

 

I could live live with that one. I think we should implement it before this election.