I admit, I was wrong about Joe Barry

[RandyHolt]

So you wanted Barry to rush 7 with the likes of:

Everett / Dunbar / Hall at FS / Jarrett in your secondary?

 

That's asking for a beating man...

 

It goes both ways. And we took a beating in the playoff game not blitzing 7. I think GB scored on 6 out of 7 drives and generally manhandled us.

 

How did Haslett do it in 2012?  A team can hide a weak secondary by attacking the QB.

 

Josh Wilson was the whipping post IIRC, Madieu, Reed - no shortage of complaints..... Rak out, other injuries I am sure.

 

When a team fails to get pressure, which occurs on more plays than not, what are the 4th and 5th stringer DBs supposed to do?  They are on an island bringing 4 and almost predictably, the 5th guy once every 10 plays, because the pressure is minimal.

 

That DB that can't cover? Blitz him occasionally.

[Burgold]

So you wanted Barry to rush 7 with the likes of:

Everett / Dunbar / Hall at FS / Jarrett in your secondary?

I know it sounds contrary and it's living by the knife, but Rogers was folding and doing terrible when pressured (as did Cam and Peyton yesterday)

 

I guess the question is whether you prefer being killed by drip torture or by shot gun

[Warhead36]

Blitzing works if you have good pass rushers already. You can't just say "lets blitz!" when you have no rushers. Denver can blitz because they have monsters like Miller and Ware. Their DL is also a good pass rushing DL. If you blitz without having enough good rushers opposing QBs just get rid of the ball quick and against our secondary that often means gashes for huge yards. Denver also has a lockdown secondary that won't give up any of the quick stuff and can also cover the deep stuff while press covering.

 

Once again people overvalue coaching. I'm not saying Philips isn't a great D-Coord, he is, one of the best ever without a doubt, but ultimately talent wins. Would Phillips really squeezed more out of the likes of Will Blackmon or Will Compton or Quinton Dunbar?

 

I'm also not saying Barry is some genius either. He very well could be below average, maybe average, but I don't think its fair to evaluate him with the current defensive personnel. And I actually think we were a fairly well coached defense last year, particularly after we replaced Riley and Robinson. You didn't see guys confused like with Haslett in years past. We just don't have top end personnel. There isn't a single player on our D that scares the opponent or is someone they have to game plan against.

[RandyHolt]

I feel like early in the year, our front 7 got good pressure without blitzing many / much at all, so that an OC would have had to game plan for someone in that front 7, if even with minimal concerns.

 

I more feel like the lack of blitzing never really put OL / backs into a position to screw up an assignment.  When you don't have a feared pass rush, the DC has little choice but to roll the dice since he cannot count on player X and Y saving his bacon week to week.

 

Playing bend don't break at best leads to every game being a coin flip, and thats the route Barry took in a handful of games. Including vs GB IMHO, and our offense just couldn't match Rodgers.

 

Kerrigan is one to normally game plan for but was invisible much of the year.

[Leonard Washington]

I'm sure Philips sees not getting hired by the Skins as a blessing in disguise;  assistant coach of the year and super bowl champion is a nice consolation prize.

[ThomasRoane]

Wade copied Seattle's 3 deep/4 under scheme for most of the game.  Basically, it keeps the offense from taking big shots down the field.  The QB has to be patient and dink and dunk the ball down the field.  Which does not fit Cam's mindset.  He likes to hold the ball and take big shots down the field.  Denver was successful because you can't block Von Miller for 3 seconds.  Not without help.  Denver is also very solid in the middle.  There's a reason they let Pot Roast walk away.  They didn't need him.  The panthers had a tough time vs the front four.  Blitzers just made it worse and kept Cam from scrambling. 

 

Aaaa-ron Rodgers did not light up the Skins defense.  GB won because the Redskins couldn't stop the run game.  I think Mike Shula dropped the ball in play calling.  The Achilles heel to Denver is also their strength.  Von is not a big guy for a pass rusher.  Not compared to JJ Watt, Kerrigan, Preston Smith, etc.  Von is only 6'3" and weighs about 250.  The Panthers love to run the ball but they foolishly tried to run it between the tackles.  The smart move would have been to put a TE to Von's side, double team him, and run Outside Zone or zone read to his side.  Take his legs so when you need to drop back on 3rd down he won't be fresh and using your Tackle as a turnstile. 

 

So, it was a simple game plan for Denver.  Keep the Panther's receivers in front of the DB's and just keep sending Von.  Let him play the run on the way to the pass.  Carolina never made them adjust and it cost them the game. 

 

When Joe B. gets better players he'll be a much better coach.  Kinda like how Jay Gruden was a better coach on offense this year.  It's largely still a player's game. 

 

I'm really intrigued about Junior Gallette.  He's pretty much the same size as Von.  6'2" about 258 pounds.  Coming off an injury.  Hungry and very fast.  He wouldn't even have to play run downs.  Ryan and Preston can handle that. 

[RandyHolt]

As I saw it Denver blitzed early and often and rattled Cam, and set the tone for the game.

 

And brought more than just a 5th guy, as was Barry's calling card.

 

Cam pretty much wilted and otherwise seemed off all game.

 

I cannot recall Denver getting consistent pressure rushing 4, at least not early.  Am I way off base in how I remember those few facets of the game? 

 

I am surprised there is no website that tracks number of blitzers, and number of blitzes.  By quarter. I don't care about total amount of blitzes as I feel strongly starting out aggressive is far more effective than at far more predictable times. Why doesn't the NFL track it.

[pjfootballer]

They also took Olsen out of the game and forced Cam to his second read. None of his WRs stepped up and he was high, wide and short with the pressure.

[skinny21]

Don't know much about Denver's safeties, but their corners are very, very good.

Regarding Barry, I think it's pretty clear the deck was stacked against him this last year. I'll be curious to see how next year plays out as the roster changes and guys get more comfortable in their positions and in the scheme.

Two things I really liked about Barry - 1) the mentality he had towards backups ("starters in waiting"), with a next man up attitude, and 2) how the team responded to his desire for swarming to the ball - ie. the reason we led the league in assisted tackles and fumbles. I also liked his energy, his philosophy of always looking forward, and his 'best man wins' attitude towards playing time.

Lots of room for growth there, but I think the changes in talent will be most telling on the D.

[goskins10]

As I saw it Denver blitzed early and often and rattled Cam, and set the tone for the game.

 

And brought more than just a 5th guy, as was Barry's calling card.

 

Cam pretty much wilted and otherwise seemed off all game.

 

I cannot recall Denver getting consistent pressure rushing 4, at least not early.  Am I way off base in how I remember those few facets of the game? 

 

I am surprised there is no website that tracks number of blitzers, and number of blitzes.  By quarter. I don't care about total amount of blitzes as I feel strongly starting out aggressive is far more effective than at far more predictable times. Why doesn't the NFL track it.

 

Wade Phillips describes here what they did. It's pretty simple but clearly effective if you have the right athletes. Not typically a MMQB fan but this is pretty good.

 

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2016/02/08/nfl-super-bowl-50-denver-broncos-defense

[RandyHolt]

Thanks goskins10 - good stuff

 

Green dog blitzing, an extra lineman - Phillip was aggressive and dictated play. It's no surprise to me that it was successful. 

 

Meanwhile, the Panthers did what they always did - nothing new - predictable.

 

Kind of like us in our game.

 

Phillips gets a game ball

 

 

This tactic, known as green-dog blitzing, is an aggressive yet relatively safe way to combat a dual threat quarterback like Newton. As long as the green-dog blitzers are patient and sure that their man is not just chip-blocking but actually staying in all the way, and as long as they’re disciplined in their rush lanes so as not to disrupt the four rushing defensive lineman, it can be a lethal approach.

 

Linebacker Brandon Marshall, who has been a key green-dog blitzer for Denver all season, said this was the plan every time they saw extra men stay in to help pass protect. “In a lot of games we saw on film, Newton was just sitting back, patting the ball,” Marshall said. “We’d see two [free defenders] in the middle of the field just not doing anything...

 

“They did everything that we saw on film,” Marshall said. “That’s the crazy thing. Nothing new.”

[SkinsFTW]

Wade is historically a 1 to 2 hit wonder. In Houston:

2010 (before he got there) - Yds/GM - 30th Pts/GM - 29th

2011 - Yds/GM - 2nd Pts/GM - 4th

2012 - Yds/GM - 7th Pts/GM - 9th

2013 - Yds/GM - 7th Pts/GM - 24th

Wade Phillips is a one year wonder because his offenses QB sets an NFL record by throwing a pick 6 in every game he starts in 2013? OK buddy, you got me and if Joe berry coached that Broncos defense they beat the Panthers still lol.

Didn't you think it was odd that the Texans still were 7th in yards but dropped to 24th in points? Any idea how that happened?

Hint: I already gave you the answer.

[goskins10]

Wade Phillips is a one year wonder because his offenses QB sets an NFL record by throwing a pick 6 in every game he starts in 2013? OK buddy, you got me and if Joe berry coached that Broncos defense they beat the Panthers still lol.

Didn't you think it was odd that the Texans still were 7th in yards but dropped to 24th in points? Any idea how that happened?

Hint: I already gave you the answer.

 

 

Unnecessary sarcasm aside, did you read the rest of the post or just look at the numbers? I said quite specifically that I do not know if Joe B will be as good, better, or worse than Wade P. But that they both started with completely different situations and Wade's teams start out good but then fall off almost immediately.

 

Wade started with the 3rd best Def in the NFL. Denver invested a lot of money into that side of the ball after the Seattle beat down. They changed the entire character of the team. Also, he had worked with Kubiak in Houston. Ever wonder why he was out of work in 2014? Joe started with the 29th Def in scoring! We ended the season with 3 starters that were not even on the team and still improved 12 spots in scoring! The point is it's not apples to apples.

Also, I only showed one season but Wade Ps Ds are notorious for being improving greatly the first season but then backsliding every year after.

 

As for your question, you were implying the Off threw a lot picks which is why the pts were high. Did you actually look at the stats or just assume? The actual numbers are below:

Here are the TDs given up by Houston's Ds:

2011 - Rush - 8 : Rec - 18 : Ret 0 Def 1  total - Ret/Def = 26 - 4th

2012 - Rush - 5 : Rec - 29 : Ret 3 Def 1  total - Ret/Def = 34 - 12th

2013 - Rush - 11 : Rec - 29 : Ret 1 Def 7  total - Ret/Def = 40 - 22nd

 

So yea, their QB threw more pick 6s in 2013 (although it was not one a game!), however the Def also gave up 14 more TDs themselves than in 2011. That's almost 7 pts a game just on D! Backing out the Ret and Def TDs, the Def went from 4th to 22nd in TDs given up. That's 18 spots in just 2 yrs. So as I said, his Ds start great and continue to get worse every year. Source is NFL.com - team stats.

 

I like Wade P. I would have been OK if we hired him. But I knew it would be a short term solution and most likely we would need someone else in a few years. I am glad he had the success he did this year. He is a nice guy and I was rooting for Denver. But I was not that upset we did not hire him. I trust what Scot and Jay are building and am willing to give them all a chance. Early returns show that they are headed in the right direction. I hope it continues.

[skinny21]

Makes me wonder if success of Phillips' D's leads to more roster turnover on that side of the ball and more resources allocated to the offenses...

[Morneblade]

Didn't want to start a thread on this, and this is definitely defense related. An no, I'm not sold on Joe Barry yet either.

 

Who is our starting NT this year? I see the Temple kid as rotational, but not a starter, at least not yet.

 

And no matter what D we are in (3-4 over/5-2 okie) we still have a guy that is playing a NT role. Maybe not a 340 pound space eater, but someone that needs to beat double teams. Chris Baker honestly is the best guy for the job, but I almost sure he's going to be playing DE. After getting gashed in the run last year, I'm really concerned.

[kingarthur65]

I'd love to see Baker improve from last year and become an anchor along that line.  I don't blame the run production solely on the line though.  Skins D plays a lot of zone, which requires the players to read and react.  Inconsistent play by the safeties and linebackers hurt our run D.  I expect Compton to read offensive tendencies better this year and put the D in better position to stop the run.  

[Morneblade]

I'd love to see Baker improve from last year and become an anchor along that line.  I don't blame the run production solely on the line though.  Skins D plays a lot of zone, which requires the players to read and react.  Inconsistent play by the safeties and linebackers hurt our run D.  I expect Compton to read offensive tendencies better this year and put the D in better position to stop the run.  

This doesn't help if you are getting physically manhandled up front, and that happened a lot. We got moved off the ball, and the DL in a 34 is supposed to occur blockers (so the LB's can make plays) and they didn't. OL got to the 2nd level a lot and were able to take our LB's out of the play, putting a lot of pressure on the secondary to make run stops.

 

And Baker isn't going to play NT, he's the starting LDE and doesn't like playing NT.

 

The plan might be to start Spaight and Daniels, because the physicality they bring and use them to shore up the middle. That's the only option I really see.

[skinny21]

This doesn't help if you are getting physically manhandled up front, and that happened a lot. We got moved off the ball, and the DL in a 34 is supposed to occur blockers (so the LB's can make plays) and they didn't. OL got to the 2nd level a lot and were able to take our LB's out of the play, putting a lot of pressure on the secondary to make run stops.

 

And Baker isn't going to play NT, he's the starting LDE and doesn't like playing NT.

 

The plan might be to start Spaight and Daniels, because the physicality they bring and use them to shore up the middle. That's the only option I really see.

That's not the case for a 1 gap scheme though, right?  Penetration is the name of the game.  This is why (at least in part) we 1) didn't try too hard to bring Knighton back, 2) didn't draft a behemoth NT, and 3) drafted stack and shed ILBs Spaight and Daniels in successive years.

[kingarthur65]

Here's an example of poor run support by our safety.  Baker does a good job occupying the double team.  Leaving the safety unblocked.  The SS plays run support, close to the line of scrimmage.  It's his play to make, but he completely whiffs in the backfield.

 

https://fat.gfycat.com/RashFarflungElephant.webm

[Morneblade]

That's not the case for a 1 gap scheme though, right?  Penetration is the name of the game.  This is why (at least in part) we 1) didn't try too hard to bring Knighton back, 2) didn't draft a behemoth NT, and 3) drafted stack and shed ILBs Spaight and Daniels in successive years.

Good point, but we were poor there too.

[HTTRDynasty]

Here's an example of poor run support by our safety.  Baker does a good job occupying the double team.  Leaving the safety unblocked.  The SS plays run support, close to the line of scrimmage.  It's his play to make, but he completely whiffs in the backfield.

 

https://fat.gfycat.com/RashFarflungElephant.webm

 

Yea, this is a perfect example of what Barry was talking about in his interview on ESPN 980 a few days ago.  The main problem with the run defense was the lack of tackling on the second level, which led to explosive plays.  We'd go the first quarter or first half of a game looking very solid in run defense, but then guys start to get tired and whiff on their tackles, which leads to big runs for the other team.  The GB game is a great example of that.

[fields]

Didn't want to start a thread on this, and this is definitely defense related. An no, I'm not sold on Joe Barry yet either.

 

Who is our starting NT this year? I see the Temple kid as rotational, but not a starter, at least not yet.

 

And no matter what D we are in (3-4 over/5-2 okie) we still have a guy that is playing a NT role. Maybe not a 340 pound space eater, but someone that needs to beat double teams. Chris Baker honestly is the best guy for the job, but I almost sure he's going to be playing DE. After getting gashed in the run last year, I'm really concerned.

 

I just saw Sly Williams in Denver won't be returning off of his rookie deal. He could be a good addition at DT to play rotational NT in base sets...

[SkinsGuy]

Yea, this is a perfect example of what Barry was talking about in his interview on ESPN 980 a few days ago.  The main problem with the run defense was the lack of tackling on the second level, which led to explosive plays.  We'd go the first quarter or first half of a game looking very solid in run defense, but then guys start to get tired and whiff on their tackles, which leads to big runs for the other team.  The GB game is a great example of that.

 

A lot of the team's run defense problems also had to do with injuries.

 

By the end of the season, they were playing several guys (Blackmon, Foster) they had pulled "off the street". They even played one player (Dunbar) they had converted in the middle of the season from offense to defense (the Redskins started a dozen different DBs during the season due to injury...more than any other team).

 

It explains why the defense looked pretty good in the first half and not-so-good in the second. A lot of players were playing overtime with not much rotation. They were wearing out.

 

Players returning from injury and the continuing infusion of talent to the defense by GM Scott should help this unit improve quite a bit.

[Morneblade]

 

It explains why the defense looked pretty good in the first half and not-so-good in the second. A lot of players were playing overtime with not much rotation. They were wearing out.

 

Players returning from injury and the continuing infusion of talent to the defense by GM Scott should help this unit improve quite a bit.

 

We didn't look good all season. The first 2 games were good, and then it was all downhill. Weeks 3 and 4 were not bad in run D, but not good in pass D, after that 176, 221, 190 and 161 for rushing yards to the halfway point of the season. By week 4 both pass and run D were terrible. We lack players, and I don't think Barry is very good and won't get us better than the sum of our parts.

[Koolblue13]

You're obsession over one position is tired.

We added a run defending safety, which is the position that changes our defense.

We did add a pick who can play Nose, just not the one you wanted or where you wanted it.

We added a run stopping ILB.

We went right up the middle on defense.

Also, we're adding extremely scheme specific players to this team, which obviously means, the coaching isn't changing any time soon, barring an absolutely obvious coaching break down.