I admit, I was wrong about Joe Barry

[Skinsinparadise]

 

But to me yards is a very minor statistic. I take you back to 2013, we were 18th in yds allowed. No one would mistake that D for anything but horrible, especially since it was the 30th ranked D in scoring and our record showed it! Also, in 2009, our last "top 10 D", we were 10th in yds but 18th in pts scored. Sorry, that D was not very good.

 

Good conversation though! Very much looking forward to next season! Looking forward to next season.

 

I hear you on that but where I depart some is I hated that they gave up lots of yards on the ground including a really high YPA for opposing running backs.   When you allow your opponents to run the ball very successfully and pile on yards -- its sort of the Redskins 80s team in reverse.  On plenty of posts though I don't really heave the blame on Barry but on our MLBs for this who IMO are overrated by some of our fanbase/media.  

 

I didn't care much for Haz but his defenses arguably were better at stopping the run.  But hopefully Cravens and Duke help stop this.  Agree, good conversation.  Cheers!   And I have some optimism about this unit improving in 2016.  

[goskins10]

 

First, not trying to be an ass, but it's Barry, not Berry. <--- Thank you noted

 

More importantly you took 3 metrics and doubled them to 6 when they are the same number. Yds/gm and total yds are going to track each other, exactly. It's counting the same metric twice. Same with passing and rushing yds/gm and total. I conceded that yds was the one metric we got worse on. I was including all permutations, but OK, 3. <--- I wasn't talking to you I honestly did that for myself

 

Ultimately all the "down" metrics are all related to yards. As I have said many times (probably getting close to too many) I could mostly care less about yds. Pt's wins games, not yds. <--- there is nothing saying that won't go the reverse next year unless we make some serious strides here. Talent is getting better on Defense but the more games we win the harder it would be to keep the points scored against us low without an elite Defense. The issue with the yardage is that it shows we are not elite. This will be his best season proving me wrong to doubt the man or just proving me right. I hope I am wrong

 

 

 

Absolutely agree we are not elite. Not even close, I also share the concerns of allowing RB to run all over the place. It was very frustrating watching very average RBs gash us for a bunch of yards.

 

I just think Barry did a little better job given the hand he was dealt than maybe some other believe.

 

I am hopeful and actually expect us to be better. We could just surprise some people this year including ourselves...   

 

I hear you on that but where I depart some is I hated that they gave up lots of yards on the ground including a really high YPA for opposing running backs.   When you allow your opponents to run the ball very successfully and pile on yards -- its sort of the Redskins 80s team in reverse.  On plenty of posts though I don't really heave the blame on Barry but on our MLBs for this who IMO are overrated by some of our fanbase/media.  

 

I didn't care much for Haz but his defenses arguably were better at stopping the run.  But hopefully Cravens and Duke help stop this.  Agree, good conversation.  Cheers!   And I have some optimism about this unit improving in 2016.  

 

 

As I said to bob I agree re: RBs running all over us. It has to get better.

[TheShredder]

2015 Defense vs the run can be contributed to a number of things.  Coach Barry went into the first game with the defensive scheme to run it decently if all his starters were available.  He made due when people started going down.  Overall, the secondary has been the biggest problem for a long time. There's always questions about SS/FS, DB with CB's specifically being a weakness. There was noway for him to play man defense because they'd get torched.  Not enough ball hawks in the DB's to allow for another defender in the box.  He did well to attempt to drop more guys into coverage and play to not give up the big TD.  They gave up more yards but stayed in more games. 

 

2016 is going to be very different if they have guys that stay healthy and avoid IR.  Guys go down, so depth is paramount to the success and failure of the years overall statistics and outcomes.  With the rookie additions, resigning, free agency additions, and returning from IR playmakers, I do not view any of the deficiencies to be at the CB position.  So, Cooley is insane if he isn't sold on our CB's.  Redskins will arguably have one of the strongest starting CB's in the entire league.  Sometimes Cooley is right and sometimes he is very wrong.  He's an X-NFL player and local commentator.  He's coaching HS football.  He'll make alot of bad calls until he gets better at it.  The Redskins secondary will lead the NFC and rank high in the league.  Also, the best pass rush tandem in the NFC East and will rank strongly league wide.  Berry has his pieces right now and has already said that he doesn't need a big NT and that the depth we have will allow him to bring more guys and play the run to the QB.  Galette is all over it and so is Kerrigan as they know they're going to put serious pressure on the QB with the secondary being stronger.  I would bet that Steelers QB Rothhasaburger will be on his ass in the first game of the season!

[skinny21]

I hear you on that but where I depart some is I hated that they gave up lots of yards on the ground including a really high YPA for opposing running backs. When you allow your opponents to run the ball very successfully and pile on yards -- its sort of the Redskins 80s team in reverse. On plenty of posts though I don't really heave the blame on Barry but on our MLBs for this who IMO are overrated by some of our fanbase/media.

I didn't care much for Haz but his defenses arguably were better at stopping the run. But hopefully Cravens and Duke help stop this. Agree, good conversation. Cheers! And I have some optimism about this unit improving in 2016.

Overall, I like Barry a lot, but it's definitely too early to tell if he's a good (or poor) DC. It's hard to attribute much of the improvements and/or weaknesses of last year to him - Fewell, McGlouhan, the talent (or lack thereof), injuries, etc. all played their part. Really like his attitude and energy though - he's a guy that I would love to see succeed.

On top of all that, he's young and growing with the team, he's of the Phillips coaching tree, holds players accountable, and he seems like the type of coach players enjoy playing for.

Now, all of that is window dressing compared with the actual performance of the defense, but it gives some hope.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

As I said to bob I agree re: RBs running all over us. It has to get better.

 

Maybe a darkhorse candidate to help on this front is Steven Daniels at MLB.  Months ago, I was exchanging some tweets from a guy from PFF about MLB prospects and he was touting to me Daniels who they have as the top run stopping MLB in the draft.  It got my attention.  And Cooley while down on the Fuller pick was raving about Daniels upon film study last week.  and Mark Bullock did the same the other day here.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/football-insider/wp/2016/05/09/a-closer-look-at-redskins-seventh-round-pick-steven-daniels/?postshare=3601462807203920&tid=ss_tw

 

If I have an ax to grind with the defense as I said yesterday its not so much with Barry but with the MLBs.  I don't care how much Will Compton tweets, goes to Capitals games, and shares his bromance with Mason Foster -- I think the dude at the moment is weak against the run and just average against the pass -- IMO a big liability.  And Foster is the reverse just average against the run but weak against the pass.   They are both young and might take a step forward but i am actually excited to see Daniels usurp one of these guys jobs.  You can't IMO have a good run stopping defense when you have questions at both MLB and NT.  I think better strong safety play-Cravens can minimize some of the damage. But yeah I'd love to have a really good run stopper in the mix.  We saw what Sean Lee did to our offense on MNF he was a one man wrecking crew.  IMO neither Compton or Foster are even in the ball park of being that, not even on their best day.

 

My only argument on Barry in essence is I am not in the camp that he proved anything definitive last season good or bad.   He seems like a nice guy, likable -- fun to read about all the coffee the dude drinks, etc.  It seems like what people laud a lot though is how the secondary had all those injuries but hung in there regardless -- I presume though Perry Fewell had a lot to do with that, it was his job to coach that unit.  And Fewell has arguably more pedigree as a coach than Barry does at this point of their careers.  

[LD0506]

Still want to see what Spaight can bring to the table, in some ways he was last year's Daniels, under-the-radar/ coverage questions thumper w/ serious work ethic and attitude. I doubt he wasted a year injured just sitting on the couch, he ought to be ahead of the curve as far as scheme/ responsibilities, etc.

 

So some promising young depth @ LB, what's not to love? There's still too little data to make any hard-n-fast declarations re Scot but you start to see the broad outlines coming into focus here, and I expect TC to be more demanding and surprising vis-a-vis who wins playing time than we have seen in years.

[johnboy99]

Still want to see what Spaight can bring to the table, in some ways he was last year's Daniels, under-the-radar/ coverage questions thumper w/ serious work ethic and attitude. I doubt he wasted a year injured just sitting on the couch, he ought to be ahead of the curve as far as scheme/ responsibilities, etc.

 

So some promising young depth @ LB, what's not to love? There's still too little data to make any hard-n-fast declarations re Scot but you start to see the broad outlines coming into focus here, and I expect TC to be more demanding and surprising vis-a-vis who wins playing time than we have seen in years.

 

 

The question I have about Spaight is how on earth can a week 1 concussion put you out for the season?

 

I like him a lot, but I have to wonder what on earth is going on with the guy

[Skinsinparadise]

The question I have about Spaight is how on earth can a week 1 concussion put you out for the season?

 

I like him a lot, but I have to wonder what on earth is going on with the guy

 

Yeah wonder the same unless it was just an excuse to bury someone who wasn't ready to start on IR.   But yeah whether its Spaight or Daniels or both love to see some real thumpers at MLB.  I get its more of a passing league these days but specifically you need your MLBs IMO to be able to be studs against the run -- and its not as if Compton IMO is some magician against the pass, he's ok on that front but nothing great. 

 

I think the defense needs one more off season to be a top 10 level unit.  But IMO when you have arguably 2 very good corners, 2 very good pass rushers.  And a D. Buchanon type to help in nickel and if D. Hall is as good at FS as some say he will be including Jay -- this defense IMO should be at least average.    

[johnboy99]

 

 

I think the defense needs one more off season to be a top 10 level unit.  But IMO when you have arguably 2 very good corners, 2 very good pass rushers.  And a D. Buchanon type to help in nickel and if D. Hall is as good at FS as some say he will be including Jay -- this defense IMO should be at least average.    

 

 

Su'a, don't forget my man Su'a!!!

[Aireskoi]

I think Barry deserves a lot of credit for what he was able to do just walking in the door.  The defense was bad and it was due to a lack of talent at all 3 levels.

 

I didn't approve of the hire, I wanted Wade or someone else honestly.  

 

The players did respond to him, his scheme was sound, he was enough of a compliment to the offense to get to the playoffs.  

 

 

I believe our offense will put increased pressure on the defense this year.  Barry will have to be able to stop the run, because teams will not want to see Kirk with the ball.  They're going to chew the clock and steam roll our defense, if they can.  The offense will need to get up early to keep teams with strong run games from doing this.  I'm not sure that we have the players to stop it yet on the defense.

[johnboy99]

I would like to add that the removal of @sshat haslett is IMPO the equivalent of adding one All-Pro to the D. I joke not - Haslett was just totally out of his depth. How I didn't put my foot through my plasma every Sunday after watching his garbage scheme and calls is a mystery

[Wildbunny]

I think Barry deserves a lot of credit for what he was able to do just walking in the door.  The defense was bad and it was due to a lack of talent at all 3 levels.

 

I didn't approve of the hire, I wanted Wade or someone else honestly.  

 

The players did respond to him, his scheme was sound, he was enough of a compliment to the offense to get to the playoffs.  

 

I believe that's something that is so underrated nowadays, but the relationship between a coach and his players his quite important. It really seems like our guys love to play for their coaches, and that's a real good sign.

Also, let's not forget that despise all the hate he got, Barry did come here with a bunch of good positional coaches like Akey and Fewell. He even bringed back Manusky this year to take care of LBs (can't remember if it's ILBs or OLBs).

So besides Joe, we have a nice group of positionnal coaches that are making this team way much more interesting to watch.

 

What so many people haven't noticed last year is that, along with the departure of Haslett, we nearly let all of the position coaches leave (besides Olivadotti), even Baker, which was a shocker to many around (including me). So our D was much of a change last year.

 

I would like to add that the removal of @sshat haslett is IMPO the equivalent of adding one All-Pro to the D. I joke not - Haslett was just totally out of his depth. How I didn't put my foot through my plasma every Sunday after watching his garbage scheme and calls is a mystery

 

Don't circumvent profanities filter mate...

[Skinsinparadise]

Su'a, don't forget my man Su'a!!!

 

Yeah I mentioned Su'a in some of my posts in this thread.   We won't know until the season starts but seems like there is a lot of love out there about Cravens from multiple sources. 

[skinny21]

Maybe a darkhorse candidate to help on this front is Steven Daniels at MLB. Months ago, I was exchanging some tweets from a guy from PFF about MLB prospects and he was touting to me Daniels who they have as the top run stopping MLB in the draft. It got my attention. And Cooley while down on the Fuller pick was raving about Daniels upon film study last week. and Mark Bullock did the same the other day here.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/football-insider/wp/2016/05/09/a-closer-look-at-redskins-seventh-round-pick-steven-daniels/?postshare=3601462807203920&tid=ss_tw

If I have an ax to grind with the defense as I said yesterday its not so much with Barry but with the MLBs. I don't care how much Will Compton tweets, goes to Capitals games, and shares his bromance with Mason Foster -- I think the dude at the moment is weak against the run and just average against the pass -- IMO a big liability. And Foster is the reverse just average against the run but weak against the pass. They are both young and might take a step forward but i am actually excited to see Daniels usurp one of these guys jobs. You can't IMO have a good run stopping defense when you have questions at both MLB and NT. I think better strong safety play-Cravens can minimize some of the damage. But yeah I'd love to have a really good run stopper in the mix. We saw what Sean Lee did to our offense on MNF he was a one man wrecking crew. IMO neither Compton or Foster are even in the ball park of being that, not even on their best day.

My only argument on Barry in essence is I am not in the camp that he proved anything definitive last season good or bad. He seems like a nice guy, likable -- fun to read about all the coffee the dude drinks, etc. It seems like what people laud a lot though is how the secondary had all those injuries but hung in there regardless -- I presume though Perry Fewell had a lot to do with that, it was his job to coach that unit. And Fewell has arguably more pedigree as a coach than Barry does at this point of their careers.

That Bullock piece on Daniels was a good read/breakdown. Loved hearing (just after the draft) that Daniels has been working hard on coverage this offseason - he's obviously a heck of a run defender.

The question I have about Spaight is how on earth can a week 1 concussion put you out for the season?

I like him a lot, but I have to wonder what on earth is going on with the guy

Yeah, that was pretty surprising - SIP may have it right about stashing a guy... at least I hope that's the case.

Su'a, don't forget my man Su'a!!!

That's who he was referring to with the "Buchanon type" to help as a nickel guy.

I mentioned the "window dressing" stuff earlier regarding Barry, but I wasn't referring to his coffee habits... more so his always look forward attitude, the starters-in-waiting, not using names of opposing players, and falling/laying on the ground after that near pick showing his passion. None of that is a big deal, but you can see how he could garner a lot of respect from his players.

I could see an improvement on D, but even a mild regression wouldn't necessarily have me calling for his head. He still needs help on the line and with ILBs, and has to sort out the safety spot. As he improves those spots though (whether guys already in-house, or next offseason) I think this D will have a high ceiling going forward.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

I think the comparisons to Wade are focused on the wrong things.  Does Wade have more talent?  Sure.  Not debatable.  

 

However, I think our tendencies to judge coaches on who 'does more with less' is flawed.  It's like that in every sport.  We look at the team that was supposed to be the worst on a sliding scale, and whatever team achieved the most wins over expectation, that coach wins COY.  That's why you hardly ever see the best coaches in sports wins these awards, because they are always 'dinged' by reputation and expectations.

 

To me, the best coaches do 'more with more'.  I have no doubt that SM will get us the pieces to be successful on defense.  Can Barry then mold/lead that talent into a championship defense?  Who knows.

 

Leading a talent heavy squad also comes with a different set of challenges.  Better teams have better players.  More egos, higher expectations, etc.  Can he command the level of respect needed to unify/maximize that kind of team?  Again, I'm not sure.  

[TSO]

My only argument on Barry in essence is I am not in the camp that he proved anything definitive last season good or bad. He seems like a nice guy, likable -- fun to read about all the coffee the dude drinks, etc. It seems like what people laud a lot though is how the secondary had all those injuries but hung in there regardless -- I presume though Perry Fewell had a lot to do with that, it was his job to coach that unit. And Fewell has arguably more pedigree as a coach than Barry does at this point of their careers.

First just wanted to say I'm enjoying this conversation very much, SIP, which isn't a surprise considering who's involved (including goskins, skinny21, AWIMB, Wildbunny, and the rest of you contributing). This is what ES should always look like.

Now about the the point here you made that I quoted... I'm not sure about that being the case, honestly. But, even if that's what people laud the most, that's still legit.

He's the D Coordinator, you can't exclude him from any positional group doing well just as you wouldn't were they to fail. In the end, the secondary coach has to abide by what Barry chooses to scheme and call. He has to coach his players accordingly.

Furthermore, because the secondary was so decimated by injury, it likely cost him his willingness to be as aggressive as he'd like to be in the front seven and, thus, he "coordinated" to help out Fewell's group.

There is certainly a connection there, an entangled web if you will, and that's where the term "coordinator" applies.

But he also did a good job with the injuries to linebacker. We lost both of our starters, and while some say that may have benefited Barry since Compton/Foster were a better duo than Robinson/Riley, I'd have to assume they're simplifying the issue when it's a bit more nuanced than that.

Compton was getting increased playing time even while Keenan was healthy. Riley was actually starting to ball out when Compton was beside him, so losing Riley when we did hurt big time.

In the most recent interview, you hear him talk about how he had to get on Preston Smith being an immature rookie and, once it clicked with him, he started coming on towards the end of the year.

So there are things we probably have no idea about behind the scenes that happened, but I think we got to see those things represent themselves positively on the surface and, overall, we can say he handled a lot of tough situations pretty well. For instance, like with the Preston Smith thing above, one of those "surface representations" we got to witness was how more young players actually improved in their development as the season wore on than with virtually any other D Coordinator we've had here in forever.

He also prioritized starting the best players in general, something we've lacked in a big way as well.

I swear, in year's past we would've immediately inserted Jeron Johnson when Ihenacho went down just because of cost, but instead they went with Trenton Robinson. And then when he started to suck they put DHall back there.

Guys like Hatcher, Paea and Knighton saw decreased playing time (or in the case of Amerson were straight up cut) while guys like RJF, Golston, Baker, Everett, Jarrett, etc... took on increased roles and sometimes became the starter. And it happened pretty quickly, like with Baker who took a starting DE spot by week 4.

There's simply a whole lot to look at and say "hey, well done". So, honestly, I just can't understand why it's tough for you to recognize whether or not he proved anything definitive. I think he most certainly did with quite a few things. Not everything, of course, and the jury is still out on him but I think there's some good, solid evidence to mull over.

Now, will that translate into progress? I think so, but maybe it won't. Maybe he'll regress. Maybe he'll remain stagnant. Maybe his scheme is forever terrible at stopping the run and he'll be stubborn about it. Maybe he'll never be an elite coordinator.

But to say he hasn't proven anything definitive... I don't know, I think you'd have to ignore a considerable amount of positive stuff while magnifying the yardage (particularly rushing) problem. So, yeah, I think he has proven himself on some things positively and I'm pretty confident in that assessment.

Or I could totally just be acting like a complete homer, here.

[Reaper Skins]

Barry seems like he coaches to win.  Opportunistic and fast paced with emphasis on takeaways.

 

Haslett always seemed to be playing not to lose.  just let the clock wind out.  Drove me nuts watching every game come down to him trying to stop the other team scoring by allowing 20 yard completions as long as the endzone was secure.

 

Barry also seems to be much more involved with the preperation of the backups or "starters in waiting"

 

Haslett always gave the vibe of giving players the playbook and then leaving them to fend for themselves.  Anytime someone was called on to "fill in" for a starter they seemed lost, unprepared, and frequently out of position.

 

Barry likes to emphasize putting players in the best position to let their natural talents succeed and seems more willing to alter his playbook to get that talent on the field.

 

Haslett seemed much more tied to the brilliance of his scheme and if it failed, it was the players fault, not his.

 

Barry seems super emotional.  Haslett was super deadpan and mechanical.

[Skinsinparadise]

But he also did a good job with the injuries to linebacker. We lost both of our starters, and while some say that may have benefited Barry since Compton/Foster were a better duo than Robinson/Riley, I'd have to assume they're simplifying the issue when it's a bit more nuanced than that.

But to say he hasn't proven anything definitive... I don't know, I think you'd have to ignore a considerable amount of positive stuff while magnifying the yardage (particularly rushing) problem. So, yeah, I think he has proven himself on some things positively and I'm pretty confident in that assessment.

Or I could totally just be acting like a complete homer, here.

 

By anything definitive good or bad I am talking purely about my own take about him.   My take after this season wasn't that we got a gem in Barry or for that matter we got a dud.  In my mind, I saw evidence that could lead to either argument.   Probably the simplest argument I can make on this point is Barry inherited a bad defense and it remained a bad defense.  Few are talking about this defense elevating from poor to average -- it was IMO poor.  We could argue the finer points about it wasn't as poor as the previous defense but IMO it remains that it was still poor, regardless.   Was he dealt with a bad hand? Yeah, definitely.   Do I give him a pass for it, yes.  

 

But for me its hard to look at a defense that gave up a ton of yards both in the air and the ground -- even though it was afforded one of the best time of possession opportunities in the league last year -- and think anything super positive about it or on point about Barry specifically.    

 

All of this is subjective, its just what hits our eyes and sticks with us for whatever reason.  For me last year, I thought the offense was even better than the stats indicated and they were getting better as the season went along -- I was impressed with it.  I wasn't for example one of the guys throwing in the towel on the offense after the Jets game -- I saw the context of it and some silver linings leading to it.   I didn't get that same vibe about the defense where things felt much better than the stats indicated.  

 

It felt to me close enough to the actual stats and that is you can kill us on the ground and with the deep pass -- I had little faith that the defense would rise to the occasion (aside from some nice red zone stands in some games) -- culminating in the Packers scoring 5 times in a row in the playoffs.  And we had a stretch where we had almost no answer to stopping the run and we seemed to lose momentum in many games by giving up scores right after the half. 

 

And you hit my sore spot with the MLBs drill .  And I 100% agree I give Barry a pass for it because I think that was in particular a bad hand.  Its a fun narrative about Mason/Compton but they also got killed on the ground. I was at the Dallas game, McFadden looked like Emmitt Smith against that duo and the way Lacey juked those guys in the open field, instead of being 250 pounds or whatever he was, he looked like L. McCoy versus us. 

 

Sorry for the negative emphasis but my response is to your positive take which is a variation of why not Barry?  I agree with most of the points you made on his behalf but I am indicating the points that make me pause to that question and in turn put myself firmly in the undecided mode about Barry.   I am not negative about Barry coming into the season or think we got ourselves the next hot shot D coordinator.   I really don't know one way or another.  I got to see the next chapter played out.

[Audible_Red40]

I think Barry has all the potential.  I too was not big on the hire, but he has made strides and not only do the players seem to have bought in and respect him, the new guys seem to genuinely respect him and look forward to getting to work.

 

He already has a history with Cravens and Fuller, that goes a long way for rookies.

[Wildbunny]

I think Barry has all the potential.  I too was not big on the hire, but he has made strides and not only do the players seem to have bought in and respect him, the new guys seem to genuinely respect him and look forward to getting to work.

 

He already has a history with Cravens and Fuller, that goes a long way for rookies.

 

I believe he's the kind of manager (coach here) you like to work for, and the kind of boss you are ready to go that extra work to reach better goals.

All of us here have bosses above us and we'll probably all agree that if you don't believe in your boss, you're not gonna put it 100% if not more. Players are all alike, they're performing better if they believe in their coaches. They're putting more work during TC and practicing sessions, and thus they play with more intensity on sundays.

 

Barry isn't probably the best defensive mind in football, and never will. I don't think you need him to be it. You need him to be decent, and make players believe.

[Skinsinparadise]

I believe he's the kind of manager (coach here) you like to work for, and the kind of boss you are ready to go that extra work to reach better goals.

All of us here have bosses above us and we'll probably all agree that if you don't believe in your boss, you're not gonna put it 100% if not more. Players are all alike, they're performing better if they believe in their coaches. They're putting more work during TC and practicing sessions, and thus they play with more intensity on sundays.

 

Barry isn't probably the best defensive mind in football, and never will. I don't think you need him to be it. You need him to be decent, and make players believe.

 

I agree with the point that he seems to be a good people person, that's clear.  I wouldn't rule out him being one of the better defensive minds.  I don't really have a take on that issue one way or another.  I think its to be determined.  But I agree with the point made here by someone about how a new coordinator can improve over time.    A lot of talk here about Wade Phillips for example -- and for arguments sake lets play with the idea that he's one of the better coordinators -- I doubt Wade Phillips was when he started what he is now.  Mike Zimmer for example is arguably more well regarded today then he was for example years ago in Dallas. 

[LD0506]

One thing I get from Barry so far is that the guy doesn't seem to have an ego problem, he's open to input from the staff around him and genuinely seems to care about results. IMO that's worth more than the Ggreat expert who runs a " my way or the hiway" program.

 

So far the players seem to respond well to him, him and the others on the staff, and I give Scot some credit for that kind of attitude, and after Shanahan's ego it is a breath of fresh air.

 

Of course, the nicest guy in the world that can't get the job done will get the boot, but I'm still willing to offer the benefit of the doubt and see what happens with better pieces in a second year.

[TSO]

Warning... massive post incoming. 

 

By anything definitive good or bad I am talking purely about my own take about him.   My take after this season wasn't that we got a gem in Barry or for that matter we got a dud.  In my mind, I saw evidence that could lead to either argument.   Probably the simplest argument I can make on this point is Barry inherited a bad defense and it remained a bad defense.  Few are talking about this defense elevating from poor to average -- it was IMO poor.  We could argue the finer points about it wasn't as poor as the previous defense but IMO it remains that it was still poor, regardless.   Was he dealt with a bad hand? Yeah, definitely.   Do I give him a pass for it, yes.  

 

But for me its hard to look at a defense that gave up a ton of yards both in the air and the ground -- even though it was afforded one of the best time of possession opportunities in the league last year -- and think anything super positive about it or on point about Barry specifically.    

 

All of this is subjective, its just what hits our eyes and sticks with us for whatever reason.  For me last year, I thought the offense was even better than the stats indicated and they were getting better as the season went along -- I was impressed with it.  I wasn't for example one of the guys throwing in the towel on the offense after the Jets game -- I saw the context of it and some silver linings leading to it.   I didn't get that same vibe about the defense where things felt much better than the stats indicated.  

 

......................................

 

Sorry for the negative emphasis but my response is to your positive take which is a variation of why not Barry?  I agree with most of the points you made on his behalf but I am indicating the points that make me pause to that question and in turn put myself firmly in the undecided mode about Barry.   I am not negative about Barry coming into the season or think we got ourselves the next hot shot D coordinator.   I really don't know one way or another.  I got to see the next chapter played out.

 

 

 

 

For the record, I didn't quote your entire post and I bolded some of the points I wanted to discuss. This one's going to be a doozy (KB will love it). 

 

I get it, there are definitely things to improve upon... but, again, notice how your emphasis is almost exclusively on yardage. When you say it was "poor", that can only be the case with regards to yardage since, outside of those stats, everything else he did was either average or good.

 

And when you compare it to the rest of the NFC East (the best comparison in my mind since it's essentially the same schedule) he was virtually at the top in every category outside of yardage, the most important one being Points Scored. That was with the highest injury rate in the NFC East, on a team that had historically bad defense's for the year's prior to his arrival.  

 

That has got to say more than anything the yardage stats in comparison to the rest of the NFL does, doesn't it?

 

As for the offense giving the defense one of the best TOP opportunities... I think you're ignoring that Time of Possession isn't exclusively an offensive-based stat. Defense plays a significant role in it. If your defense is getting you the ball back consistently (forcing 3 and outs, turnovers, etc... ) they're contributing mightily to the totals. Our defense happened to have a pretty good 3rd down conversion percentage (again, best in the NFC East, 12th overall according to this website) and was top 10 in turnovers (I believe 8th overall in the league).    

 

 

Like you said, it's eye test and subjective to a large degree... but I think it's easy to forget the way the defense aided the offense the majority of the games as opposed to it being the other way around. 

 

That's because, in my opinion, the record-setting performance by our offense (which mostly came the last month of the season) overshadows the flow of the actual games. We get caught up in the overall stats but, when you look at it game-by-game and remember the flow of said games, you don't come out of it thinking "boy, those long drives from the offense sure made it easy on the defense all year". Many of those long drives occurred because the defense kept getting the ball back to the offense. 

 

Really, saying something like "the offense afforded the defense excellent TOP...." and, therefore, they should've done better with it as an argument against Barry seems, to me at least, more based on simply staring at stats instead of looking at it game-by-game, drive-by-drive.    

 

 

So let's go through it again to see how often the offense's elite TOP stats - or even general offensive prowess - really did benefit our D while they failed to capitalize on it. Or, better yet, how much was the D helping the offense in adding to that TOP as opposed to the defense failing and the offense picking up the slack with long drives (I'm doing this for me as much as it is for you, lol, I'm enjoying this discussion immensely because it's helping me realize why I stand where I stand ):

 

 

 

Week 1 against the Dolphins, the offense was pretty much stagnant the entire game and the defense carried the team, only allowing 10 points total to be scored against them (or shall I say against Amerson). There were some time-consuming drives but, TOP or not, it's tough on a defense when your offense isn't scoring AND turning over the ball, yet, they excelled. The most you can say is, if the defense did benefit from offensive TOP, they took clear advantage of it. So it can't be a knock.   

 

Week 2 against the Rams, the defense pitched a shut out for 3 out of the 4 quarters (the only 10 points the Rams scored were given up in the 3rd quarter, oh and the Rams lone TD came after a Matt Jones fumble). I think that says it all. If the defense benefited from TOP, they took advantage like in week 1 so, again, can't knock them for it.  

 

Against the Giants in week 3, the defense kept us in the game the first 3 quarters while getting next to no help from Special Teams (punt blocked for a safety) or the offense (including Kirk throwing an INT on our side of the field right after that safety that resulted in their only TD the first half, as well as another one in the 3rd quarter). Can't see the offense as having helped them out with TOP or anything else for that matter, but only harming them overall.  

 

Against the Eagles in week 4, they pitched another first half shutout while only really failing in the 3rd quarter (giving up 13 points, that was the game Cully shouldn't have played in and the Eagles took advantage a couple times). The Eagles' lone TD in the 4th quarter came after a Jordan Reed fumble, by the way. After that, the defense held the Eagles from putting the game away and gave the offense the ball back for that awesome game-winning drive.

 

So, yeah, defense benefited at the end there from that drive because the Eagles got it back with very little time to do anything. Still, they could've got themselves into FG range to tie it but Barry's D held up. All in all, I wouldn't say the defense benefited from the offense's TOP here while failing to capitalize, both sides aided the other evenly. 

 

Against the Falcons in week 5... same thing. The defense holds the Falcons (who were absolutely on fire at the time as an offensive juggernaut) to a whopping 6 points throughout the first 3 quarters. Our wonderful offense put up one TD in the 2nd quarter throughout that entire time, and there weren't many long drives that helped out. Lot of 3-to-5 and outs.

 

Now, they screwed up in the 4th quarter but, at that point, it's hard to totally blame them. Tough task with the offense doing next to nothing the entire game. The drives the offense had in the 4th quarter weren't long ones, either. The defense also had a huge INT by Breeland to help our offense out as well.

 

This was, perhaps, Barry's worst "end of game situation" performance. It was arguably his only bad one.

 

Still, the defense performed well for the majority of the game without being helped by TOP from the offense.  

 

Jets game in week 6, you can blame the defense for their complete and utter failure in the 3rd quarter for sure, but you also can't ignore that they held the Jets to 10 points in the first half and gave our offense a chance. Nor can you ignore that the 3rd quarter melt down was spurred by a Kirk Cousins INT on the Jets side of the field. And, again, the offense didn't help out in terms of TOP either in that 3rd quarter, scoring zero points with no long drives to speak of. So I'd say a wash there between offensive and defensive failures (or pertaining to one side helping the other out, both just harmed each other essentially). 

 

Against the Bucs in week 7, we have a flipping of the script thus far. The offense didn't help out, again, with some terrible turnovers (Kirk's sack/fumble ended up costing six) but the defense failed to hold the Bucs that entire 1st quarter as well as into the 2nd. But then they shored up the rest of the way, holding the Bucs to only 6 points (shutting them out in the 3rd quarter) while our offense lead that infamous comeback. Both sides worked together here, wouldn't say one side aided the other more.          

 

Against the Pats in week 9, coming off our bye, the defense was completely screwed over by the offense and ST in the first quarter. Before we knew it, the Pats were up 14-0 off of a Kirk Cousins INT and a surprise onside kick. We literally had one offensive snap throughout that entire episode. Now, they could've held up better and kept the Pats to FGs, I guess... but the point is they weren't being helped here by the TOP of the offense, it was the complete opposite.

 

After that, though, they actually kept our offense in the game by holding the Pats to only 2 FGs throughout the 2nd and 3rd quarters while our offense only scored one FG. No advantage given to them from time-consuming drives by the offense here. The Pats put us away in the 4th after the offense failed to mount anything of substance. So we can't claim the defense didn't capitalize from the offense's TOP here.  

 

Against the Saints in week 10, both the defense and offense did outstanding jobs, but I guess you can claim the offense did more for the defense. I wouldn't say it's heavily favored one way or the other... the Saints at the time were on fire as an offense and the defense held them to 14 points total, shutting them out the 2nd half, but you could argue that was because of the total domination from our offense that entire game, including in TOP.

 

So, essentially, we've reached week 10 before you can say our offensive prowess/TOP actually benefited our defense in an obvious way while they didn't take full advantage (well, they didn't the 1st half, but the 2nd half they shut them out). Even then the defense did a really good job overall against a team that was super hot, offensively, at the time. Wouldn't call it an issue here, myself.      

 

Week 11 against the Panthers was a total, utter failure on all levels, but I'd put the blame on the defense more than the offense for sure. They couldn't stop them the entire game, it was disgusting. Offense actually helped out that first quarter as well before they were shut down, too. So, yeah, big time failure defensively to capitalize on any help the offense gave them. I'd say this one is the clearest strike (arguably the only one) thus far into the season.  

 

Week 12 against the Giants, have to give this one to the defense big time. Redemption from the Panthers' game. They shut the Giants out for 3 quarters. A team that always had our number and a game that was essentially for the division at the time. Huge, huge performance. And the offense only scored in the 2nd quarter of that game (one TD was a quick score; a bomb to Desean Jackson on the first play of the drive) during that 3 quarter shut out, so the defense was doing all the work the majority of the time without much help from long, time-consuming drives by the offense.

 

They gave the offense numerous turnovers (including two INTs in the 1st quarter) as well, and the offense failed to capitalize. In the 3rd quarter, the offense turned the ball over on downs after a failed 4th, but that ensuing Giants drive ended when Dunbar intercepted Eli in the endzone.

 

Now, they gave up two quick scores in the 4th quarter, one was on a desperate 4th and 16, the other was a ridiculous catch by Odell that you can't blame on anyone. Still, all in all, I don't think you can claim that excellent defensive performance was aided by the offense's TOP. Quite the contrary.  

 

Week 13 against the Cowboys... pretty much a defensive battle throughout, where the offense and Special Teams totally failed the defense. The offense struggled to do anything the entire game, while the defense gave them opportunity after opportunity. Special Teams was the main culprit, though. Not only did we miss a FG, but we had Desean Jackson have that infamous punt return and fumble after the defense made a huge stop to give us the ball back with under two minutes remaining and the game tied at 9. The Cowboys went on to score, but here the defense received no help from any phase of the team. On top of that, after the offense finally got it together and we tied the game at 16 with little time remaining, the Cowboys return the kickoff to about mid field, putting the defense in a tough spot once again.

 

So, yeah, the defense got screwed over by the other phases here, really... they received little benefit from the other two phases and mostly harm, actually. 

 

Week 14 against the Bears, looks like the D did a good job the first half (shut the Bears out almost the entire first half, they scored their lone TD of the half with :18 seconds left on the clock), and the O did good as well with a couple nice, time-consuming drives to start out (but after that they had a bunch of 3 and outs throughout the middle of the game). Bad 3rd quarter from us all around, but mostly on the defense (gave up 14 while the offense scored 7, though Kirk threw an INT towards the end of the 3rd quarter, giving the Bears a short field). There were a few key stops in the 4th quarter from the defense, with the offense driving for the go ahead FG. The defense gave up a huge play to Alshon Jeffrey at the end, but then tightened up and forced the Bears into a 50 yard FG to tie the game, which Gould missed.

 

So, I guess you can say the offense helped out with some long drives, especially early in the game... but I wouldn't say it was the biggest reason the defense held up. I'll give you this one because I'm feeling bad at this point, though.

 

Week 15 against the Bills, the defense shut the Bills out in the first half while the offense helped with a bunch of time-consuming drives. So the defense did an excellent job while the offense helped with TOP. Then they failed miserably the second half, giving up way too many big plays. We opened up the 2nd half with a Bills drive that ended in a FG. Then we answered with that awesome bomb to Desean Jackson (not a time-consuming drive to say the least). The Bills then had a bomb of their own for a TD. Then our offense went 5 and out. Then another bomb from the Bills, lol. Then our offense had a nice, long time-consuming drive for a TD to help out the D. After that the game was pretty much over and it was a bit back and forth with both offense's stalling... but the Bills scored at the end when the game was out of reach.  

 

 Definitely can put that second half on the D and say that the offense saved them there with that time-consuming drive that closed out the 3rd quarter and went well into the 4th. So here the D truly gained an advantage from the O's TOP while it was in a state of chaos.  

 

 

 

Week 16 against Eagles (gonna go into major detail on this one since it was the biggest game of the year). 

 

The game started out rocky for the defense with the Eagles scoring on their opening drive. The offense then went 3 and out, so not much of any help there. The defense buckled down and held them to a 6 and out.

 

Our offense then went on a 6-play under 3 minute drive ending in a Jordan Reed TD (not a particularly long drive, obviously). Our defense then holds the Eagles to a 3 and out.

 

Then our offense went on a 7-play 3 minute and 40 second long drive for another TD to Jordan Reed.

 

Defense then holds the Eagles to a 6 and out.

 

Offense then goes 3 and out.

 

Defense holds the Eagles to another 3 and out.

 

Offense goes 4 and out. 

 

Defense gives up a 2 minute drive for a FG.

 

Offense goes 3 and out.

 

Defense forces a fumble (Breeland).

 

Offense capitalizes with a 2 minute drive for a FG. 

 

Defense holds the Eagles to a 6 and out. 

 

Then that infamous drive with 29 seconds left in the half happened where Kirk kneels instead of spikes the ball, allowing time to expire, lol. 

 

Okay, so first half is over and, at this point. I think we can say the defense isn't gaining much in the way of an advantage due to the offense's TOP. They've held their own even as the offense stalled many times, but did well on the ensuing drives after the offense held the ball for any decent amount of time.       

 

Beginning of the 3rd, offense gets the ball and holds it for slightly under 3 minutes, going 5 and out.

 

Defense then steps up with another 3 and out.

 

Offense then goes on a nice, long 4+ minute 11-play drive for a TD.

 

Eagles answer with a big kickoff return, bringing them to midfield. They go on to score a TD. We can say the defense failed to capitalize here, but Special Teams didn't help either so it's not all on Barry's group. 

 

Offense then goes 3 and out. 

 

Defense comes up huge, with the botched exchange between Bradford and Murray ending up in a DHall recovery and TD.

 

Defense then holds the Eagles to a 6 and out. 

 

Then the offense goes on a ridiculously long, slightly under 8 minutes 13 play drive that resulted in a Garcon TD. Killer drive.

 

Game is over at this point, so the defense backs off and forces the Eagles to dink and dunk. Which they do, and it ends up taking 4+ minutes in a 13 play drive for them to score a TD. Not going to hold this against Barry's group as not capitalizing on the offense's time-consuming drive. 

 

Offense ran the ball three times in an attempt to run out the clock, then punted. Eagles got the ball back and, again, just took up time dinking and dunking their way to nothing, as the drive stalled at our 26 yard line on a 4th down try.

 

Game over, victory kneel.

 

 

So, though the offense had some nice drives, one in particular being ridiculously long... the defense either took advantage any time they did or helped out the offense when it was stalling a bit during the 1st half. No way can we say the defense failed to capitalize on the opportunities afforded to it by the offense, here. The only time the defense really struggled was when the offense wasn't helping themselves, or Special Teams screwed them over.

 

 

Week 17 against the Cowboys. This one was a laugher. We essentially destroyed them with our starters, both offensively and defensively. Our first three TDs were virtually all quick scores. First and second TDs came on two play drives. After the first quick score, defense intercepted Moore giving the offense a short field. When we scored quickly again, the defense caused a fumble. Then the offense went on a 3+ minute drive for a TD.

 

 By about midway through the second quarter we started pulling starters, and that's when the Cowboys were able to do anything offensively or defensively, so hard to judge anything after that.  

 

There was only one truly long drive that game. It occurred in the 3rd quarter, 14 plays for a whopping 8+ minutes. The defense responded with a 3 and out. So, yeah.

 

 

 

 

 

OK, phew. All done. This took a lot of work, but I'm glad I did it. I really get the feeling that my eyes didn't deceive me this year. The defense did a lot of good, and aided the offense just as much, if not more so, than the other way around. I don't believe you can look at the TOP stats and assume it means the defense was placed at an advantage as opposed to the defense helping out considerably by getting the ball back often.    

    

There was maybe 2 or 3 times in the entire season where the offense had long, time-consuming drives and the defense failed to capitalize. Basically, if the offense did that the defense took advantage, just like they're supposed to. Outside of a couple games (and arguably only the Panthers game), defensive failures mostly showed up when they were getting little to no help from the other phases.     

 

[JaxJoe]

Awesome recap, Submitted.  This summary enforces what season-ending stats do not - that each game is situational.  What I saw in Joe Barry's first season was a better game planning and implementation of that plan. Compared to Haslett, who I felt was so horribly unprepared and predictable,  I felt like the defense did well enough to keep us in the majority of games last season, in spite the injuries,

 

A game plan can only work if it's communicated to the position coaches during the strategy sessions of the previous week; and that we have position coaches who can translate the plan to the players, that we have players who buy into the plan, and ultimately, they show it on gameday.  

 

I'm certain our secondary has improved this offseason but the DL has me a little worried right now. I can't wait for training camp and the first pre-season game to see these pieces come together.

[skins island connection]

 It took years of banging my head against the wall before they decided to get rid of the bum who previously held the DC job; now yet another 'unproven' guy has taken over, and to be honest, hasn't really 'dazzled' people.

 

He deserves to be given a chance to build a defense worthy of putting on the field, but comparatively speaking, nowhere near the amount of time should it take to make a determination. Either he can or can't help this team, and even though the team isn't chock-filled with superstar players, there are some good players on this team who need help.

 

Ever since the switch to 3-4, defenses have blown big time here and its time for this crap to stop. The offense looks very promising, but without a defense expectations will not be high. Coattail riding shouldn't be allowed, excuses have all been used up; if it doesn't improve, ditch Barry, ditch the 3-4 and start over with something new.