I admit, I was wrong about Joe Barry

[Koolblue13]

I think it does the exact opposite in regards to time. I think it means it's no excuses time for Barry. I realize it's his second year and that's a tough way to look at it, but it's a tough business.

Barry doesn't have the resume to demand a longer leash.

you think they'd bring in coaches and players and invest all those resources, to a coach on the hot seat? Seems strange. Barring some collosal collapse, Barry isn't going anywhere.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

you think they'd bring in coaches and players and invest all those resources, to a coach on the hot seat? Seems strange. Barring some collosal collapse, Barry isn't going anywhere.

I think you're correct in that our personnel decisions/draft are tied into scheme fit and philosophy.  However, Barry isn't the only guy who runs that scheme or has that philosophy.  If Barry fails, I expect there will be an attempt to upgrade with a new coach who runs a somewhat similar scheme.  There has also been a lot of talk about acquiring players that are scheme diverse.  I think that would aid in the transition if a coaching change were to be made.

[Koolblue13]

I think you're correct in that our personnel decisions/draft are tied into scheme fit and philosophy. However, Barry isn't the only guy who runs that scheme or has that philosophy. If Barry fails, I expect there will be an attempt to upgrade with a new coach who runs a somewhat similar scheme. There has also been a lot of talk about acquiring players that are scheme diverse. I think that would aid in the transition if a coaching change were to be made.

I don't completely disagree with you. I don't think we're completely marrying Barry, but its a serious engagement. I think it's dishonest to pretend injuries and a lack of talent, didn't play a major role in our defensive issues last season. I think it's an important year for Joe and its wait and see right now.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

I don't completely disagree with you. I don't think we're completely marrying Barry, but its a serious engagement. I think it's dishonest to pretend injuries and a lack of talent, didn't play a major role in our defensive issues last season. I think it's an important year for Joe and its wait and see right now.

I've stated that injuries had a big impact on our defense last year, and agree with you there.  I'm just less bullish on Barry than most, even with a full cupboard at his disposal.  Is that speculation on my part?  Yes.  Would I love for Barry to turn out to be the guy long term?  Absolutely.

 

There are a couple of things that I think get glossed over on ES.  One, in my opinion, we didn't beat a good team all season last year.  We got destroyed by every good offense we played, and we struggled against the better defenses that we played.  With our schedule this season, I see a high probability that we will struggle this season to get to 8-8.  

 

The two biggest areas of concern for me are Barry's ability to lead/mold a top defense, and Cousins performance against teams with winning records.  I'm more bullish on Cousins than Barry, but I'm not completely sold on either.  

[TSO]

Ok, I guess I lied. I'm not bored anymore, you guys keep saying things that pique my interest, damnit. And what the heck, what else is there to talk about. Good conversation, fellas.

Let me start with the most recent posts.

I get where you're coming from, AWIMB (let's see if that acronym sticks, lol).

It's totally conceivable that Barry isn't very good. Don't get me wrong with my "bullishness" regarding Barry, I'm not convinced he's an elite coordinator or anything.

I was actually pretty pissed when that report first came out that he'd be the likely hire, since on the surface it seemed like a "Tampa connection" move, but I kept it to myself mostly. And I honestly didn't care who we hired at that point because I was more concerned with our FO structure than anything else. I expected even Wade would fail were we to bring him on board (remember, we were interviewing for D Coordinator pre-Scot).

But the more I heard from Barry, his attitude, his scheme, etc... the more I liked him. Honestly, my defense of him has more to do with what I consider is the over-anxiousness of fans to lay blame on an easy target than anything else. Very similar to Gruden last year.

Really, I just saw a lot of things from him that were vast improvements from our historically terrible defense's in years prior (some of which has been outlined by goskins in his most recent post, I went into depth on it after the playoff game where he was being bashed as well). Those things are almost always ignored and that's pretty damn annoying.

As I said, like with Gruden after his first year (where the consensus was that he was an "idiot fat ass" who maybe was the "worst coach in the NFL"), I saw a lot of positive qualities in him via the way the players responded to him, his decisions regarding personnel, as well as the results on the field. And he arguably overcame more than Gruden did that first year (though the FO's poor structure and the devastation at QB he endured is pretty much the worst, lol).

For me, that's what I look for in coaches. Are the players responding? Do they have it down or are they confused? Are they communicating? Is the competition true, or are they loyal to a fault?

I think the answers to those questions are positive regarding Barry. You have those qualities in a coach and you give them good personnel? It's going to work out more often than not.

I think the Xs and Os part of it becomes infinitely easier when you have even one X who is elite. Teams fear that player, start working around him, and then you can play off of that as a coach because you can anticipate what they'll try to do to stop said player. And the more of those guys you have, the more that occurs.

I mean, people who've even coached youth football can attest to this. You get one kid who's usually the fastest one on the field, the world is suddenly filled with limitless possibilities, lol. Hand it off to him every time. Or pull a fake to him. Everything works.

Now, who on that defense was a real game changer? Our best player, Kerrigan, wasn't himself for a large part of the season.

SIP just mentioned Wade (and he's far from the only one), but what's never mentioned is how the guy seemingly ALWAYS has, like, the best pass rusher or linemen in the game at his disposal. Literally, THE BEST.

With the Cowboys, he had Ware. With the Texans, JJ Watt (and they still went 2-12 his last year there). With the Broncos? Oh, you know, just Ware again AND Von Miller (let's not even get into the other names on that Broncos team).

And you can't say he's the reason those guys were elite. They were before him AND after him.

You know what? I think everyone is right. Guy is a genius. But it has nothing to do with scheme... he just knows where to go because of who's there. Essentially, he gets it. Personnel >>>> Coaching.

I think TK can vouch for this, but I recall one of the reasons his interview didn't go well was because he wanted some guarantees regarding personnel. Something like he wanted the first rounder to be a defensive player no matter what. I don't remember where I got that from so I might be wrong about that, though I don't think I pulled it out of my ass, but if that's the case... doesn't that say it all?

And, if so, wouldn't that improve Barry's stock in your mind a little bit?

Either way, guy wasn't working with a lot of blue chip talent. Some argue Kerrigan isn't "elite" (that wonderfully elusive term). He definitely wasn't last season for a huge chunk of it, at least, so you can say he had NONE.

He's definitely got more talent this year. Should be fun. I'm expecting continued improvement and don't think it's really all that questionable. I think there's good reason to believe he'll do well.

[Koolblue13]

Subs, I agree with everything you just said (seriously lol).

What bugs me I think, is everyone has wanted "the next great" or "young up and comer" to coach the defense.

We got a guy from Wade tree. We knew it would take a few years for him to learn and to acquire the talent/specific players.

That Packers game. Rodgers got our fat old linemen in the game, then either quickly picked on Blackmon/Dunbar or hammered their big back through the line. Those issues have seemingly been fixed.

I hope everyone stays healthy, because Duke, Gilette, Norman, Cravens, Tolver and a healthy kerrigan will make a big difference. A healthy rotation on RJF, Paea, Baker, Murphy, Hood and ionidias is also an improvement and I liked Hatcher.

[Skinsinparadise]

Don't feel like getting into a back and forth about it, SIP, but let's just say I disagree with about every single point you made in that last post (plus the "ALL about talent" comment was a bit of a straw man, but I forgive you) and feel pretty comfortable with the evidence I have as to why, lol.

I've laid it out enough, though. I'm bored at this point.

So let's just hope you're as wrong as you were about Jay. Eventually you'll learn not to disagree with me about these things.

 

I hope I am wrong, too.   I didn't really think I said anything controversial there.  Basically, what I was saying is that I am agnostic about Barry, don't hate him as a coordinator, don't love him, either.   I said he had a bad hand last season.  I didn't see him do anything special with that hand or blow it either.  Maybe its best for me to use a grading system to make my point about him and that is I saw him as a C -- not terrible, not great with the disclaimer that it was tough to judge and I don't have the expertise to judge so its very subjective.  I was actually more down as Jay as a head coach in year 1, then i am currently about Barry.  But among Jay's naysayers I wasn't on board with canning him and made the point that you could learn a lot from year 1 to year 2 and Jay deserved that chance.  Feel the same about Barry.

 

If I am saying things controversial I gather its not about Barry its about the point in question about some other defensive coordinators having made quick impacts on their teams.  I've lost track on who said what on this point.  So this isn't directed at any one person.  I am just recalling some of the arguments I've read on the other side of this point.  And that point tends to be some variation of these dudes inherited some talent that was either existent on the roster already or brought by an off season overhaul.  And these coordinators have had their own bad moments, too.   And there are examples when the good D coordinators haven't turned things around quick.  I think though those points lose sight of the big picture.    I don't see this is a binary 0 or 1 argument.  It's too complex to pigeonhole IMO to one extreme or another.

 

My problem with those arguments is yeah there are bumps on the road and yeah its not always easy to turn around a bad defense into a good one overnight, etc.  And yes it doesn't always happen.   But it indeed does happen and its not some crazy rare happenstance to see quick improvements.  It feels like the Haslett excuses over the years (and this isn't directed at you because I recall you weren't a Haz fan).  If you track Haz's defense rankings over a long career they were generally mediocre to poor with really hardly any major highlights.  His biggest defender Chris Russell attacks this by saying Haz never had talent in any of his stints.  I think that's ridiculous.   

 

This point is also not directed at you and I am going to go hard in the other direction to bring home the point.  That is, at some point you have to take into account why certain coaches have the reputation they have.  Guys who are considered legendary in the business like lets say Jim Johnson from the Eagles in his day, Dick Lebeau -- clearly they aren't just examples of hype with nothing really behind it where they were just lucky dudes who were at the right place at the right time.  Part of my take on this is players -- current and former players swear by the thought that their top coordinators made all the difference.   With the Redskins alone I can think of interviews from people like Fred Smoot going on and on about playing for Gregg versus others.  

 

I hate to use Rob Marinelli as an example but he inherited at the time the joke defense of the NFL and made them respectful within his first season.  We had even our own offensive coordinator on the radio last week more or less admitting they were outschemed by him in that MNF game.   Another defensive coordinator considered among the best Zimmer inherited a very bad defense and in season 1 turned them around right away.

 

Now if the argument is talent matters more.  I'd agree with that.  If the argument is most coordinators are average and so its talent that separates them.  I'd agree with that, too.   Where I depart on this point is I indeed think there are some D coordinators who are at the top of their game and can make a significant impact on a team very quickly.  And does Barry come off to me as one of those guys, nope.  But I don't rule it out, lets see what he does this year.    

 

For those interested here's an article I found from NFL.com ranking the top coordinators and their rationale for it.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000498479/article/wade-phillips-vic-fangio-among-top-10-defensive-coordinators

[Panamon28]

....

My position on Barry is we really have no idea what kind of Dc he is other than he and the other D coaches are clearly very good teachers, something we have not had here in a vey long time. I will definitely agree that without to same crazy injuries, Barry has the tools to make a big step in the right direction. But even so, Ds need to play together. He gets a pass on last year due to lack of talent and the multitude of injuries. I expect a different result this year. .

I agree that it would have been virtually impossible for Barry to put together a top 10 D with the talent/injuries we had on defence last year. Just look at our DBs to end the year (outside of Breeland) - Blackmon (street FA), Dunbar (converted WR w 4 months experience at CB), Hall (converted CB w a few months experience at S) and Goldson (great leader but no speed and limited coverage ability). There was no way we were going to dominate with that starting line-up....in fact, I thought that Perry Fewell and Barry worked miracles offsetting that massive gap in talent last year - especially at DB.

 

I think that this year will be a much better test of Barry's coaching abilities. Norman, Fuller, Cravens, Gallette and a 2nd year in the system gives us a much better chance of putting together a defence in the top 10...lets see what Barry can do with a roster that is quite a bit stronger. I also think that the addition of Manusky (former DC), gives us another strong coach on the defensive side of the ball - and that will also help. I liked the energy level that the defence played with last year and I think that Fewell, Manusky, Olividotti and Barry give us a pretty solid coaching group on defence - and I am cautiously optimistic that our D will approach the 'top 10' this year - We'll see.

 

I also agree that the roster build is still a work n progress and I would assume that FS, ILB and DT/NT will be high on the priority list for next offseason. That said, every team has positions that are not as strong as they would like and I think that we have enough talent on D that our defence shouldn't be a liability. I actually think that our 3rd down defence could be pretty nasty with Kerrigan and Gallette coming off the edge, Cravens at nickel LB and Norman, Breeland, and Fuller at CB. If we can hold our own vs the running game on 1st and 10, I think that we have the talent to do some damage. I also think that our offence will score points and that will put more pressure on teams (especially in the 2nd half of games) to have to pass more to play catch-up against us, which will also play into our strength (3rd down D).

 

Hey its the offseason....and time will tell.....but I actually like the way that Barry and company held the team together last year and think that our D will take another step forward this year.

[Skinsinparadise]

SIP just mentioned Wade (and he's far from the only one), but what's never mentioned is how the guy seemingly ALWAYS has, like, the best pass rusher or linemen in the game at his disposal. Literally, THE BEST.

 

 

At least from my point of view, I think the point gets lost when it gets focused on one individual specifically.   I am not one of the people who really went nuts when they hired Barry or if I did I settled down pretty quickly because I recall writing at the time that we need to see how it plays out, I saw him as a blank canvass.   I pretty much laid off him all last off season.  I liked Phillips as a choice but wasn't married to him.

 

It's easy to get lost in the weeds with each individual -- to play along a little with Phillips, in his history he has turned around bad defenses quickly and when inheriting good defenses he has made them even better.  He has had bad years, too.  I think just about every coordinator has had hiccups.  Hey I think I am pretty good at what I do in my career, and I've had some bad years, too.  It goes back to what I said in my prior post about Haz, look at the full context of his career and it mostly spells mediocre-bad.   and on the other hand there are some coordinators who both have good reputations and also pretty good stats on the aggregate.  In some cases could they be incidental?  Sure, why not?  But at some point something must be in play? 

 

I grew up with Pettibon in the 80s, and I was used to hearing both from the people who covered the team, ex-coaches including Gibbs, and his players that the dude was a magician.  He put them in the right spots, knew the opposition's tendencies.   If I recall it was Charles Mann who talked about how he would kill it during half time.  He would go over with the team how the opponent would adjust to their scheme in the 2nd half and how they'd respond.    Part of my love for this team was about the coaching -- I recall John Madden would say incessantly on air that the Redskins were the best coached team in the NFL and it gave them an edge.

 

Back To Phillips.   I don't really have a dog in the fight about him specifically.   But you can take him and a number of other guys with pretty big reputations.  It's usually about improving on what they inherited and in some cases dramatically.    But whether its Phillips or Jim Johnson, Gregg Williams, Marinelli or name that coordinator with a big reputation -- there is often some meat to the argument.  As to which one of these guys deserves or doesn't deserve that reputation IMO its immaterial to the point.  

 

From my point of view, it's not about the nuances of who is the best or deserving or not.  Its the argument that there are indeed guys who bring something major to the table that allows their team to reach beyond their talent -- if that's the question IMO the answer is heck, yes.    If you agree with this point then we aren't far apart.  If you disagree, then there is a gap in our takes on this one.  For me its not about Phillips or any specific guy but that these guys indeed exist.  It's a different debate IMO entirely as to who are these difference maker coaches.

 

 Is talent even more important, sure

 

http://thecomeback.com/thisgivensunday/2016-articles/wade-phillips-is-simply-the-best.html

 

Phillips has now had a top-10 defense in eight of his last nine seasons as a coach or coordinator, dating back to 2006 in San Diego. That’s in four different cities.

 

It doesn’t matter where Phillips is coaching. His defenses are always good.

 

In 1988, the Broncos ranked 20th in football in terms of points allowed. They hired Phillips as defensive coordinator in 1989 and immediately ranked first in the same category. They also shot up from 22nd to third in terms of yards allowed and 24th to second when it came to takeaways.

 

In 1994, the Bills ranked 22nd in scoring defense. Then they hired Phillips and shot up to 12th.

 

In 2001, the Falcons ranked 24th in terms of points allowed. Then they hired Phillips and shot up to eighth.

 

In 2003, the Chargers ranked 31st in the same category and 31st when it came to takeaways. Then they hired Phillips and immediately ranked in the top 10 in both fields.

 

In 2006, the Cowboys ranked 20th in scoring defense. Then they hired Phillips and in 2007 they ranked 13th.

 

In 2010, the Texans ranked 29th in the league in points allowed and 30th in yards allowed. Then they hired Phillips, and in 2011 they finished fourth and second, respectively.

 

Finally, in 2014, the Broncos ranked 16th in terms of points allowed. Then they hired Phillips and in 2015 they ranked fourth.

 

Wade Phillips, magician. Don’t count the man out on Sunday.

 

 

[Koolblue13]

Philips is good and he's always had talent. He's also taken over deflated teams with talent.

[goskins10]

 

At least from my point of view, I think the point gets lost when it gets focused on one individual specifically.   I am not one of the people who really went nuts when they hired Barry or if I did I settled down pretty quickly because I recall writing at the time that we need to see how it plays out, I saw him as a blank canvass.   I pretty much laid off him all last off season.  I liked Phillips as a choice but wasn't married to him.

 

 

Edit... space

 

 

Finally, in 2014, the Broncos ranked 16th in terms of points allowed. Then they hired Phillips and in 2015 they ranked fourth.

 

Wade Phillips, magician. Don’t count the man out on Sunday.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, Wade Phillips makes an instant impact. However, he cannot sustain it. I did not look at the other teams. But here are the TDs scored against his Ds with Houston, so the most recent data:

 

2010 (before he got there) - Yds/GM - 30th Pts/GM - 29th

2011 - Yds/GM - 2nd Pts/GM - 4th

2012 - Yds/GM - 7th Pts/GM - 9th

2013 - Yds/GM - 7th Pts/GM - 24th

 

Someone made the claim that was because the Off was giving up pick 6s, and special teams were giving up TDs skewing the data. But that's just not true. Here are the TDs allowed by the D minus the ret/def:

 

2011 - Rush - 8 : Rec - 18 : Ret 0 Def 1  total - Ret/Def = 26 - 4th

2012 - Rush - 5 : Rec - 29 : Ret 3 Def 1  total - Ret/Def = 34 - 12th

2013 - Rush - 11 : Rec - 29 : Ret 1 Def 7  total - Ret/Def = 40 - 22nd

 

I have not looked up the numbers for the other teams. I quite frankly don't have the time right now. But you can clearly see that after a great start, his Ds in Houston fell off, and quickly.

 

Don't get me wrong. I liked Wade. He would have been a great fro a bridge Dc until we found the long term solution. But he was just not that guy. He will be gone from Denver in 2 years. Doesn't it say something that a guy with the resume you showed was unemployed in 2014? It took he old HC from Denver getting a new job for him to be hired.

 

As for the two other coaches you mentioned, I don't know what their rosters were or if they had the n umber of injuries we had, but my instincts tell me they had much more to work with.

 

I would argue that Barry did improve things and did a pretty good coaching job. He started with very little talent and many of the key positions were inured most of the season. Yet as submittedone said, TOs were up, situational D (short yardage for example) were better, and our scoring D went from 29th to 17th! Again, I don't know if Barry is the long term solution or not. But all those "great" DCs had to get started somewhere. This year should tell us if we have something or he is not going to cut it.

 

Last but not least, I am so much bullish on Barry as I am bullish on patience. That's how you build a long lasting franchise, patience. Give guys a chance to learn and execute their craft. Let the coaching staff get to know each other. Develop young guys and pay them. Throw in the occasional big FA that really fits your team, and that's how championship teasm are built. But it takes time. If D is still in the bottom half after 2017 then move on. I don't believe we have the luxury of not being patient. Every time we start over it starts another 3 to 4 year cycle. We need this to work for us to be competitive earlier rather than later.

 

So hell yea, I want Joe Barry to be the man! But we will not know until he is given a proper opportunity.

 

 

Note: If my data is wrong please let me know. I do these things manually and it's possible that I made a mistake (although it's highly unlikely )

[Morneblade]

I'm back, hahaha! Been out a couple days with a lot of work, hope I was not missed. I'm sure I wasn't.

 

Commenting on Phillips, and going and looking at his scoring points D, the best way to put it would be inconsistent. It really is up and down, but the place I looked at didn't define DC or HC, so there is that. And I'm honestly too tired to do any deep digging today.

 

Some really good discussions going on. Maybe Barry can get this tub going in the right direction. Maybe I'll lighten up on Barry, and lack of my perceived hole at NT.

 

Carry on!

[Skinsinparadise]

 

I would argue that Barry did improve things and did a pretty good coaching job. He started with very little talent and many of the key positions were inured most of the season. Yet as submittedone said, TOs were up, situational D (short yardage for example) were better, and our scoring D went from 29th to 17th! Again, I don't know if Barry is the long term solution or not. But all those "great" DCs had to get started somewhere. This year should tell us if we have something or he is not going to cut it.

 

 

I think this is a good apples to apples conversation which is did Barry make an impact from the previous year?   On some metrics yes, on some major metrics they treaded water and some were worse  But I can go with the argument that they were slightly improved.  If he made an impact, for me it didn't feel like it was noticeable in a major way like for example Zimmer made with the Vikings.

 

But I agree with your larger point here.  It's about seeing improvement from the past and to guage accordingly  And great DC's do have to begin somewhere and grow on the job -- agree with that, too.  I gather that was part of Jay's point about wanting to go with someone younger-energetic.    

 

My point simply is -- is there agreement that there are some defensive coordinators who are very good at their jobs and better than average and can make a noticeable impact very quickly?  I concede that as to who the specific guys are -- that's debatable.  

[Wyvern]

I've been following the debate on Barry -- and agree that this will be the year when he'll have a better opportunity to show the NFL (and Skins fans) what quailty of defensive coordinator he is.

Over the last two off-seasons the Redskins have provided Joe Barry with some decent talent, and I've no doubt he had input into most of the recent off-season personnel decisions and draft picks. And Barry is now on record stating how he feels good about his D-line personnel, even at the "NT" position. So it's time for Barry to show how well he manages this 2016 defensive roster that he was so influential in shaping.

From his interview, Barry seems oriented towards making sure his players are moved into roles that maximize their skill-sets/talents --and I think that's his best side. Also, Barry appears comfortable working with his defensive staff, and they seem like a well-coordinated group of skilled coaches. (Perry Fewell showed what a major upgrade he was for the Skins defensive backs coach, Olivadotti and Akey did well too, and I suspect Manusky will not disappoint either.) So I think Barry is well one his way to implementing his vision of what he wants for his defense.

But, I guess only time will tell on how well what Barry theoretically envisions for his defense (scheme, philosophy, etc) will actually perform/execute in the NFL -- and more specifically in the NFC-East. In theory his particular version of a "hybrid", one-gapping D-line, 3-4 defense looks good on paper -- but we'll still need find out what happens against strong running teams in inclement weather. (For example, it's possible, especially if Baker gets dinged up, that Barry might wish he hadn't foregone keeping around one of those massive space-eating NT that many 3-4 defenses rely on.)

Or maybe Barry's system works well, and by the end of the season, pundits will be proclaiming him as the NFL's newest defensive guru/genius. However, I suspect that won't happen until Barry also shows he knows the X's & O's well enough to make effective adjustments during the game. [and to me, that is a question that still remains to be answered -- although I'll concede that all the injuries that riddled the defensive ranks, severely limited what Barry could show in 2015 for this particular skill-set .]

Candidly, I'm not as down about Barry as I was at his hiring (I would have preferred Phillips or Fangio); he showed a lot of good qualities, and was a definite improvement over Haslett. But it'd be premature to proclaim Barry a success just yet -- I think by the end of the 2016 season (or 2017 season)Skins fans and the Skins FO will have a much better sense of what kind of defensive coach they have in Joe Barry.

[TSO]

I think this is a good apples to apples conversation which is did Barry make an impact from the previous year? On some metrics yes, on some major metrics they treaded water and some were worse But I can go with the argument that they were slightly improved. If he made an impact, for me it didn't feel like it was noticeable in a major way like for example Zimmer made with the Vikings.

But I agree with your larger point here. It's about seeing improvement from the past and to guage accordingly And great DC's do have to begin somewhere and grow on the job -- agree with that, too. I gather that was part of Jay's point about wanting to go with someone younger-energetic.

My point simply is -- is there agreement that there are some defensive coordinators who are very good at their jobs and better than average and can make a noticeable impact very quickly? I concede that as to who the specific guys are -- that's debatable.

Yeah, I see where you're going with this. Don't forget, earlier in this thread (right after the playoff game) I admitted your position is likely the more realistic one and that mine was more gut feeling/hopeful. I was just yanking your chain a little this time around.

As for your points, while I think that "instant impact" D Coordinators may be a real existing creature in our species, I don't think that's what coaches should mainly be looking for when they hire a guy.

I mean, it's important, but I'd rather find the guy who can grow with the team and end up being here for a decade over someone you know will just make an impact and then God knows after that.

That being said, it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. Obviously, the best thing would be to find a guy who ends up doing both.

I think that's where the decision to hire Barry over Wade came from, really.

But I'd like to steer the conversation more towards whether or not Barry did make that positive, immediate, impact or not. I think he did.

I've discussed it before here:

 

 

....................  

 

Let's start with the "being aggressive" bit. Aside from the fact that this is a ridiculously subjective idea in the first place, I personally liked the way he'd blitz on critical 3rd downs and 4th downs, usually surprising the opposing offense in the process. In fact, we were pretty damn good on 3rd downs, which is more important than the vast majority of metrics. I just looked to see if my eyes deceived me here and whether the stats reflect that opinion... but, yeah, we held opponents to converting on 3rd downs only 37.6% of the time. In comparison with our divisional rivals (I think that's more important than comparing with the rest of the NFL, especially considering we were in the first year of our rebuild), the Eagles were at 42.8%, the Giants at 46.9% (just absolutely terrible), and the Cowboys at 38.9%. Remember, the Eagles and Cowboys were considered to have solid defense's, so we beat them at one of the most critical aspects of defense there.   

 

.............................

 

 Finally, I believe the most important stat on Defense is by far and away Points Per Game. Nothing matters more, and I have no idea why people quote the Yards Per Game stat knowing what we just went through with Haslett. That's Chris Russel territory right there; to point to that stat as if it means crap. Haslett would look decent there and we all know just how terrible his defense's were here (and, to be fair, the talent he was working with was abysmal as well, but he never did much of anything good with any other team defensively, either).

 

We finished averaging 23.7 PPG against, which makes us 17th overall. That's better than the Giants (30th), Eagles (28th), and just one below the Cowboys (16th, but it's basically a tie since they finished averaging 23.4 PPG).

 

So we went from being pretty much the perennially worst 3rd down and PPG defense in the division to being the best in one year under Barry. Personally, I think the only important enough stat to compare with those two would be turnovers, and we significantly improved there as well. 

 

Last point, I think something not being mentioned enough right now is just how many younger players developed under Barry. Preston, Compton, Dunbar, Kyshoen, Foster... heck, there were guys I still forget are on the team like Phillips and Everett. I know I'm probably forgetting others, lol. When was the last time we had a D-coordinator with that many young guys developing AND actually playing considerable time?      

 

Now, a lot of that is actually due to the upgrades in talent we brought in. This defense was way more talented personnel-wise than any one under Haslett. However, when you factor in the ridiculous amount of injuries Barry had to deal with I think it's fair to say it's a wash. I believe Barry far out-coached Haslett, it's not even close to me. I think he's actually good. Like, maybe even really good.    

 

 

But I really do hate that yardage stats are essentially the overall ranking. It just creates so many problems when having these discussions, because we can sit there and pull up overall rankings for guys in an attempt to assess their careers but, in the end, I don't think anyone will agree that yardage matters more than scoring, right?

I personally don't think it even matters more than 3rd down conversion percentage, turnovers generated, and general situational D.

I mean, as Redskins fans we should all be on board with that. We saw how Gregg and Blache's Defense's were here regarding that. Looked wonderful yardage wise, but we'd give up scores at the worst possible time, not to mention 3rd downs when we desperately needed a stop.

So, if that's the case, it really changes the entire dynamic of the conversation. In fact, I'd argue yardage stats (and thus overall ranking) should be the LAST thing we look at.

Here we have a guy who stank in terms of overall yardage, but was arguably good at everything else. He essentially had us better than every other team in the NFC East (again, I think that's the best comparison since we pretty much play the same schedule) at every important stat other than yardage.

For me, that says a lot more than anything else, you know? I guess that's why, unlike you, I can actually get excited about Barry. I actually believe we might have someone special in him. Maybe I'm totally off base, maybe I'm over-emphasizing those stats as well as my eye test (there were blitzes he timed perfectly that ended key drives for us, key goalline stands, stuff like that), maybe the NFC East comparison doesn't mean as much as I think it should... I don't know, but it's what I'm seeing.

I'm not always right, I can humbly admit I'm only right just about 99% of the time you know?

[goskins10]

I think this is a good apples to apples conversation which is did Barry make an impact from the previous year?   On some metrics yes, on some major metrics they treaded water and some were worse  But I can go with the argument that they were slightly improved.  If he made an impact, for me it didn't feel like it was noticeable in a major way like for example Zimmer made with the Vikings.

 

But I agree with your larger point here.  It's about seeing improvement from the past and to guage accordingly  And great DC's do have to begin somewhere and grow on the job -- agree with that, too.  I gather that was part of Jay's point about wanting to go with someone younger-energetic.    

 

My point simply is -- is there agreement that there are some defensive coordinators who are very good at their jobs and better than average and can make a noticeable impact very quickly?  I concede that as to who the specific guys are -- that's debatable.  

 

So let me start by saying I really do not think we are that much different. There are two sticking points where we look at things a little differently.

 

1. The "sudden impact" of some DCs. So you mentioned Zimmer. A couple of things there -

       a. Zimmer is the HC not the DC in Minn. Yes, he is implementing his style D, but he has a DC doing that job.

       b. It has actually taken 2 years for him to turn them around. Here are the last 3 years for the Vikings -

          2013 - Yds/gm - 31st, pts/gm 32nd

          2014 - Yds/gm - 14th, pts/gm 22nd

          2015 - Yds/gm - 13th, pts/gm 5th.

       I admittedly put much more stock in pts/gm. Here is why. The Redskins in 2013 were 18th in Yds/gm and 30th in pts/gm. Would you call our D that year average? Someone looking only at yds/gm would lean that way. But I clearly remembering us sucking ass. But in two years the Vikings who started 32nd in pts, went to 22nd then 5th. Do we have that kind of step change in our future. Maybe. Need to see these guys play and stay healthy.

      c. They started out with a some decent talent and did not have near the injuries we have. I just cannot stress enough how hard it is to field a solid D when the pieces and parts are different every week. Maybe a team that is well established. But that is not us. We are just building.

 

2. The only thing Barry didn't improve, and I think was backwards on, was yds. Sacks the same (36 for 2014, 38 for 2015), improved 3rd down %, better pts/gm to name a few. And he did so with a mash unit. I am not sure anything more than he did is a reasonable expectation given the circumstances. He started with a horrible D, was given a few new toys but most of them and some of the ones he already had were broken. Yet he still managed to coach and develop some nice young talent, and keep us competitive for most games. Remember, even if the blowouts, we were in most of those games until late in the 3rd or even into the 4th. At least some of that is due to no running game. I did not look, but I would be interested to see the number of possession we had vs. our opponents. If I have some time later I may try to find that. I see that a pretty good job for your first year here. We may have to agree to disagree there... 

 

I think we can all agree that he didn't stink the joint up - maybe we saw different levels of improvement but there was clearly at least a pointing of the needle in the right direction. I also think we can all agree that this year we expect to see much more improvement, unless of course we have the same or more injuries. Some injuries are expected. But last year was nuts. But I am looking for a step change different in at least the approach. Maybe we still don't have the horses (like the draft and additions, but you never know how they will fit together, until they play together. But the game plans should start to reflect what he wants this D to look like.

[TheShredder]

Too much to read, so I'll not offer much in retrospect. 

 

The defense will be better.  Last year we were the same as the star studded DallasSucks defense.  I just don't see how their defense is perceived to be great and our defense ranks right there and the Redskins defense is called bad???  Our defense carried the team down the stretch. They play all out, all the way to the end.  With the coach growing his defensive scheme and units, how much they will improve has a lot to do with how healthy the playmakers are.  They are set to field the best pass rush in the division with G n K. They'll be some new heavy hitters in the middle, as well as returning and hungry LB's, DB's, and CB's.  With a strong pass rush and elite CB's, the pressure on the QB will make them run the ball.  Fresh units and strong tacklers will be the key to stopping that run.  However, I'd rather have our WR's and TE's then any 1 superstar in NY or Dallas.  Philly is simply terrible and going to stink for a few years or more.  They'll always be getting high picks for the next 3-5 years. 

 

Let's give JB a thumbs up for his first year and see how much he can get out of the new unit with improvement. 

 

Possible to crack the top 10 with the current roster. 

[Koolblue13]

I love to read a well thought out and eloquently written post, with statistical metrics backing it up, with "sucking ass" worked into it.

[Butters20]

If our defense doesn't improve much this year then I won't be a fan of Barry. With galette , Norman, ihenacho, cravens either joining or returning, Preston smith in his second year, anything less than a moderate improvement would be disappointing and an underachievement

[Skinsinparadise]

Cooley has been interesting IMO to listen to in recent weeks about the defense moving forward.  Not saying he's always right but IMO he has been proven correct on enough for me to take him seriously.  After doing his film study Cooley's take: Cravens is an absolute stud and will end up playing a lot of strong safety.  I was listening to a guy from PFF recently say the same about Cravens.

 

He thinks Daniels will eventually push for starting time this season -- he likes his instincts and things he will make an impact.  He basically thinks Fuller could end up being a bust.  He think he has poor instincts and got burned by the better college WRs like Boyd.   And that's when healthy without worrying about the injury.  Cooley oddly felt so strong about Fuller that he flat out told Bruce Allen when he was interviewing him that he isn't sold on Fuller and asked him what drove them to draft him.

 

He likes Ioannidis a lot but as a 5-3 technique guy -- he doesn't think he's well suited for NT. 

 

So if Cooley's take is on the money.  The good news is we might have a starting MLB that can make a dent and a strong safety-dime linebacker.  And a good rotational DE.  But, might be questionable at nickel CB and NT.   I think this defense has enough talent now to be average.  If they are bad again I'd be disappointed.  I'd get it though if they aren't top 10.  They still need to upgrade IMO MLB, NT and those holes are very glaring.  

[Skinsinparadise]

 

2. The only thing Barry didn't improve, and I think was backwards on, was yds. Sacks the same (36 for 2014, 38 for 2015), improved 3rd down %, better pts/gm to name a few. 

 

Didn't they give up about a yard a carry more last season on the ground versus the previous season or something like that?    if so that's a pretty big decline.  25th on passing yards.  26th on running yards. Giving up yards isn't just metric that's weighed the same as many others -- its often weighed more than any other metric, its a big-important metric. 

 

I agree that there are other important metrics too and you don't want to only focus on yards.   But I think specifically when it comes to Barry its a valid metric considering our offense was one of the best in the NFL in time of possession.   It's not like our offense stuck the defense on the field a lot to facilitate all the yards that teams piled on.

 

I don't recall the stats precisely but if I recall we gave up the most or one of the most big plays in the NFL last year?  I heard that on a program recently.  Sorry I am feeling too lazy to dig up the stats. 

 

Look I am Ok with Barry. I like the emphasis on turnovers and the red zone defense was feisty under him. I am glad Haz is gone.  I do think he likely ends up better than Haz and I do agree he can grow on the job.  But it doesn't really feel like the defense turned any major corners last year.  It was a bad defense in 2014 and IMO a bad defense in 2015.

 

I do think the talent is finally there now to elevate to average.     If they do so, I am on board.  

[bobandweave]

I am not a fan of Joe Berry. But I'm willing to change that opinion but I need a reason to. I wanted to see which way the Defense improved from before and after Joe Berry. Arrow up means we improved. Arrow down means we got worse.

 

2014 Redskins ranked defensively without Berry (so we started here)

 

Sacks total season - 36.0 (Tied 21st in league)

Interceptions total season - 7 (Tied 28th in league)

Fumbles Forced (not recovered) total season - 14 (Tied 20th in league)

Yards per game given up total - 5712 (ranked 20th in league)

Yards per game allowed - 357.0 (ranked 20th in league)

Passing yards total season given up - 3990 (ranked 24th in the league)

Passing yards per game allowed - 249.4 (ranked 24th in the league)

Rushing yards total season given up - 1722 (Ranked 12th in the league)

Rushing yards per game given up -  107.6 (Ranked 12th in the league)

Points total given up season - 438 (Ranked 29 tied in the league)

Points given up per game - 27.4 (Ranked 29 tied in the league)

Probowlers on Defense - Zero

 

 

Now compare that to 2015 with Berry leading the defense

 

Sacks total season - 38.0 (Tied 14th in league) - Arrow Up by 2 total

Interceptions total season - 11 (Tied 21st in league) - Arrow Up by 4 total

Fumbles Forced (not recovered) total season - 23 (5th in the league) - Arrow Up 9 total

Yards per game given up total - 5712 (ranked 20th in league) - 6090 (ranked 28th in the league) - Arrow Down 378 more yards

Yards per game allowed - 380.6 (ranked 28th in the league) - Arrow Down 23.6 more yards per game

Passing yards total season given up - 4128 (ranked 25th in the league) - Arrow Down 138 more yards

Passing yards per game allowed - 258.0 (ranked 25th in the league) - Arrow Down 8.6 yards per game

Rushing yards total season given up - 1962 (Ranked 26th in the league) - Arrow Down 240 more yards given up

Rushing yards per game given up -  122.6 (Ranked 26th in the league) - Arrow Down 15 more yards per game given up

Points total given up season - 379 (Ranked 17 in the league) - Arrow Up. Surrendered 59 less points then the previous season

Points given up per game - 23.7 (Ranked 17 in the league) - Arrow Up. That's a change of more then a FG per game, or 3.7 points less then last season

Probowlers on Defense - Zero - Flat line

 

 

Numbers are there and found

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/totalPoints/position/defense

 

 

My own feeling is I am surprised to see that we improved much from the year before under Berry but the numbers support that we have in few areas namely less points given up which is significant and more forced fumbles 9 is a lot, But the numbers also supported my original thought which was that I don't like Berry and don't think he is a difference maker.

 

I personally don't know if Joe Berry was the reason for the few areas that improved or if it was outside factors like Tony romoSUCKS missing games against us, an easier schedule last year, or other reasons but time will tell.

 

I'm not ready to change my opinion about Berry just yet for doubting him as I need to see a lot more from him to change my opinion but for anyone else like me unsure about where we improved and where we got weaker with this DC there you go.

 

My hope is he has all green arrows this season and we not see regression from this because we have to face tougher opponents and I can believe in him. Personally thought when he was hired it was a bad decision and still do but much less now that I've seen those numbers but thought still lingers.

[goskins10]

Didn't they give up about a yard a carry more last season on the ground versus the previous season or something like that?    if so that's a pretty big decline.  25th on passing yards.  26th on running yards. Giving up yards isn't just metric that's weighed the same as many others -- its often weighed more than any other metric, its a big-important metric. 

 

edit - for space

 

I do think the talent is finally there now to elevate to average.     If they do so, I am on board.  

 

The highlighted part is where we are going to continue to disagree and why we see the improvement, or lack there of, differently.

 

I just do not think yards should be that big a metric. I think it's one of the least important metrics, but I also get I am in the minority (used to that, not likely to change...). BTW: When I said yds, I was including all permutations.

 

You are definitely right about the big plays. That contributes to yds,, but to me is a more important metric and we were clearly bad. I am pretty sure you are right about the most big plays over 40 yds. If you have not seen this thread yet, it's worth a look. It gives some optimism that the big problem has at least a partial solution in Cravens - http://es.redskins.com/topic/401164-gif-breakdown-sua-cravens-fit-as-ss-in-redskins-nickel-defense/#entry10592398

 

But to me yards is a very minor statistic. I take you back to 2013, we were 18th in yds allowed. No one would mistake that D for anything but horrible, especially since it was the 30th ranked D in scoring and our record showed it! Also, in 2009, our last "top 10 D", we were 10th in yds but 18th in pts scored. Sorry, that D was not very good.

 

Good conversation though! Very much looking forward to next season!

[goskins10]

edit....

 

Sacks total season - 38.0 (Tied 14th in league) - Arrow Up by 2 total

Interceptions total season - 11 (Tied 21st in league) - Arrow Up by 4 total

Fumbles Forced (not recovered) total season - 23 (5th in the league) - Arrow Up 9 total

Yards per game given up total - 5712 (ranked 20th in league) - 6090 (ranked 28th in the league) - Arrow Down 378 more yards

Yards per game allowed - 380.6 (ranked 28th in the league) - Arrow Down 23.6 more yards per game

Passing yards total season given up - 4128 (ranked 25th in the league) - Arrow Down 138 more yards

Passing yards per game allowed - 258.0 (ranked 25th in the league) - Arrow Down 8.6 yards per game

Rushing yards total season given up - 1962 (Ranked 26th in the league) - Arrow Down 240 more yards given up

Rushing yards per game given up -  122.6 (Ranked 26th in the league) - Arrow Down 15 more yards per game given up

Points total given up season - 379 (Ranked 17 in the league) - Arrow Up. Surrendered 59 less points then the previous season

Points given up per game - 23.7 (Ranked 17 in the league) - Arrow Up. That's a change of more then a FG per game, or 3.7 points less then last season

Probowlers on Defense - Zero - Flat line

 

 

Numbers are there and found

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/totalPoints/position/defense

 

 

My own feeling is I am surprised to see that we improved much from the year before under Berry but the numbers support that we have in few areas namely less points given up which is significant and more forced fumbles 9 is a lot, But the numbers also supported my original thought which was that I don't like Berry and don't think he is a difference maker.

 

edit

 

 

First, not trying to be an ass, but it's Barry, not Berry.

 

More importantly you took 3 metrics and doubled them to 6 when they are the same number. Yds/gm and total yds are going to track each other, exactly. It's counting the same metric twice. Same with passing and rushing yds/gm and total. I conceded that yds was the one metric we got worse on. I was including all permutations, but OK, 3.

 

Ultimately all the "down" metrics are all related to yards. As I have said many times (probably getting close to too many) I could mostly care less about yds. Pt's wins games, not yds.

[bobandweave]

First, not trying to be an ass, but it's Barry, not Berry. <--- Thank you noted

 

More importantly you took 3 metrics and doubled them to 6 when they are the same number. Yds/gm and total yds are going to track each other, exactly. It's counting the same metric twice. Same with passing and rushing yds/gm and total. I conceded that yds was the one metric we got worse on. I was including all permutations, but OK, 3. <--- I wasn't talking to you I honestly did that for myself

 

Ultimately all the "down" metrics are all related to yards. As I have said many times (probably getting close to too many) I could mostly care less about yds. Pt's wins games, not yds. <--- there is nothing saying that won't go the reverse next year unless we make some serious strides here. Talent is getting better on Defense but the more games we win the harder it would be to keep the points scored against us low without an elite Defense. The issue with the yardage is that it shows we are not elite. This will be his best season proving me wrong to doubt the man or just proving me right. I hope I am wrong