I admit, I was wrong about Joe Barry

[skinny21]

Packers seemed to do a good job mixing things up based on our personnel - run against our nickel and pass against our base D. They used spread concepts, up tempo and max protect to throw our D off it's game. They had success running the cutback lanes, challenging Smith to play contain.

They coached a heck of a game, and once Rodgers settled down it was game on for them.

I'm not too upset with Barry as he was without Jarrett (solid nickel play and versatility to shift between safety and corner), had Hall playing in a new position, had to rely on Dunbar and Cary Williams, and had a rookie (Smith) attempting to play smart/disciplined against a veteran offense.

On top of all of that, the true strength of our D was the turnovers, we got none, and redzone play - which is tough against a qb like Rodgers.

Looking forward to see how different this D looks next year, because I'm almost certain that Scot will want to address the Dline again, and our secondary should be improved with Culliver back and Hall/Jarret/Dunbar having another year under their belt (they all played in positions that were new to them). Gallete and Ihenacho (if they return) are nice pieces to have too. Hopefully we can add a good player to the Dline and/or ILB positions.

[Skinsinparadise]

I didn't look up the stats personally but one show this week said the Redskins did it differently against Rodgers than recent opponents saying Rodger's has been blitzed in recent games almost 50% of the time until that playoff game.

 

Wonder if Jay was mad some at least at one point about the D.  If you watch Turning Point this week they showed Jay and Trent miked up.  Trent at one point goes why are we substituting when they are not subbing (on defense) and then Jay yells angrily they are going no huddle why are we "expletive" subbing?

[RandyHolt]

Thanks for sharing that SIP.  We talk about a lack of talent, Rodgers is a stud, our DBs were injured etc to rationalize the loss, but coaching had a big hand in what happened as well. And our top 3 coaches are all pretty much still noobs, so I hope they learned.

 

We seemed on the defensive most of the game, save the starts to the halves. Hindsight maybe our defense should have taken a timeout or 2 to regroup in that run of allowing scores on 6 of 7 drives. Hording them for late in the game, trying to sub during hurry up didn't work out. And, will never work vs a playoff caliber QB. I noticed GB yesterday was not hording their timeouts. 

 

What GB did to Barry (hurry up to slow down the rush), is what I wanted our offense to do to GB's D.  Or, at least try since our offense could not get into a rhythm. 

 

Big picture, I think Barry exceeded expectations of most all fans. Of course, with his experience/record as a DC, the bar was probably set fairly low. Dunbar was a great story but he was predictably getting picked on. Barry could have helped him over the top and roll the dice and let him jump a few and go for a pick 6 as the game slipped away. Barry vs Rodgers.... I feel like we had to take some risks. Barry was going to have to put a player in position to make a play, short of Cousins winning the game for us. It's like we didn't prepare for hurry up at all, and never recovered. 

[skinny21]

So, I've been repeatedly saying I think we need to address our Dline... but your post got me thinking Randy. With how often we find ourselves in nickel, what one position upgrade would help us the most against the run (when in nickel)?

A thumper at ILB that can get off blocks? A SS that excels downhill? A penetrating dlineman? A lineman that can eat up blocks to allow others to make the play? Did our secondary injuries mean more focus on coverage? Or is more a matter of just getting guys to play their assignments better?

[Skinsinparadise]

 

Big picture, I think Barry exceeded expectations of most all fans. Of course, with his experience/record as a DC, the bar was probably set fairly low. Dunbar was a great story but he was predictably getting picked on. Barry could have helped him over the top and roll the dice and let him jump a few and go for a pick 6 as the game slipped away. Barry vs Rodgers.... I feel like we had to take some risks. Barry was going to have to put a player in position to make a play, short of Cousins winning the game for us. It's like we didn't prepare for hurry up at all, and never recovered. 

 

Personally, I am agnostic about Barry.  

 

As for Barry exceeding expectations -- as for myself he didn't exceed my expectations.  They were towards the bottom of most NFL defensive metrics and on some keys metrics even lower than the much maligned Haz 2014 defense.    But there were some silver linings, in many games they were an opportunistic bunch who causes turnovers.    But overall, I didn't see anything inventive from Barry ala exotic blitzes and stunts for example that fooled our offense at times.  It's cool that he's brimming with energy.  And Fewell under him clearly did a nice job with Dunbar and working Blackmon into the system. 

 

The 2 declared intentions of the defense before the season -- more aggressive versus Haz's unit and they'd be good at stopping the run.  I don't see how they accomplished either goal and took a step back if anything versus the run.  Having said that, he had plenty of excuses and deserves a pass for them, lets see what he can do next year, etc.  I am on board with that.  But in my opinion, Barry didn't exactly make lemonade out of lemons.  It was a bad defense under Haz by most metrics..  And so far a bad defense under Barry by most metrics. 

 

I don't really have issues with the pro-Barry or anti-Barry points outside of saying, I think either way its a guess because I don't see how there is definitive evidence either way.  

[RedBeast]

Not sold on Barry yet. Many variables, as previously stated here, impacted our D. Lets give it a little time and see how he fares with more talent, more cohesion and less injuries.

[skinny21]

I will say that if Barry continues to call the same type of defense (only blitzing sporadically), it's even more crucial we address the Dline.

As someone said before (in another thread?) - it's a shame we never got to see all of our defender's together - makes it harder to judge. Ihenacho, Culliver and Gallete could make a big difference along with anyone else SM brings in.

[TSO]

I hesitate to make a post like this after the defense completely **** the bed against the Packers, but hey, someone's got to defend this guy properly.

 

I like Barry's demeanor and attitude, but there's certainly some improvements to be made. I'd say the main thing is he's got to get better at adjusting mid-drive. I was actually impressed with him for the most part of the season with how he'd adjust from the end of one drive to the next. But it seemed like if an offense figured something out and started hitting on something, we wouldn't take that away until they moved the ball significantly and got into position for a score, only adjusting to it for the next drive.

 

Of course, against the Packers he had no answer, but I think it was more of an excellent game plan on their end with a great QB than anything we could do. Our strength in the front seven was being able to substitute consistently, they took that away. And without Jarrett, we were much less dynamic in the backfield as well.  

 

But if he can figure that (mid-drive adjusting) out, I think we're going to have a very good defense under him. It'll bring down the YPG stat people like to harp on (more on that below).  

 

The common criticisms I'm hearing about him as well as the supposed "defensive metrics" we were ranked poorly in... I don't feel like I'm seeing the same thing at all. Like, way way off. I certainly don't subscribe to the idea that he wasn't aggressive enough, or that he was a total failure with regards to stopping the run.  

 

Let's start with the "being aggressive" bit. Aside from the fact that this is a ridiculously subjective idea in the first place, I personally liked the way he'd blitz on critical 3rd downs and 4th downs, usually surprising the opposing offense in the process. In fact, we were pretty damn good on 3rd downs, which is more important than the vast majority of metrics. I just looked to see if my eyes deceived me here and whether the stats reflect that opinion... but, yeah, we held opponents to converting on 3rd downs only 37.6% of the time. In comparison with our divisional rivals (I think that's more important than comparing with the rest of the NFL, especially considering we were in the first year of our rebuild), the Eagles were at 42.8%, the Giants at 46.9% (just absolutely terrible), and the Cowboys at 38.9%. Remember, the Eagles and Cowboys were considered to have solid defense's, so we beat them at one of the most critical aspects of defense there.   

 

Don't feel like looking at our 4th down stats, but I think they should be pretty good. Either way, I'd put 3rd down as a much more significant stat than the vast majority of "metrics". I don't know our blitz percentages either there, but just from my own recollection I remember always thinking how impressed I was with the way we'd change up and get more aggressive on 3rd downs, especially critical ones late in the game.

 

I mean, I literally forgot what a 3 and out looked like, and this year I got to see it again.   

 

As far as the running game, the stats are bad there because of just how terrible they were at it during that stretch at the end of September and throughout October. They improved a lot after that, and that's with a lot of moving pieces due to injuries. Maybe I'm forgetting that? I feel like they were solid there the last month and a half during the regular season. Which shows he can "fix" issues. Though, admittedly, it did seem to take forever there, lol.   

 

 Finally, I believe the most important stat on Defense is by far and away Points Per Game. Nothing matters more, and I have no idea why people quote the Yards Per Game stat knowing what we just went through with Haslett. That's Chris Russel territory right there; to point to that stat as if it means crap. Haslett would look decent there and we all know just how terrible his defense's were here (and, to be fair, the talent he was working with was abysmal as well, but he never did much of anything good with any other team defensively, either).

 

We finished averaging 23.7 PPG against, which makes us 17th overall. That's better than the Giants (30th), Eagles (28th), and just one below the Cowboys (16th, but it's basically a tie since they finished averaging 23.4 PPG).

 

So we went from being pretty much the perennially worst 3rd down and PPG defense in the division to being the best in one year under Barry. Personally, I think the only important enough stat to compare with those two would be turnovers, and we significantly improved there as well. 

 

Last point, I think something not being mentioned enough right now is just how many younger players developed under Barry. Preston, Compton, Dunbar, Kyshoen, Foster... heck, there were guys I still forget are on the team like Phillips and Everett. I know I'm probably forgetting others, lol. When was the last time we had a D-coordinator with that many young guys developing AND actually playing considerable time?      

 

Now, a lot of that is actually due to the upgrades in talent we brought in. This defense was way more talented personnel-wise than any one under Haslett. However, when you factor in the ridiculous amount of injuries Barry had to deal with I think it's fair to say it's a wash. I believe Barry far out-coached Haslett, it's not even close to me. I think he's actually good. Like, maybe even really good.    

[RandyHolt]

So, I've been repeatedly saying I think we need to address our Dline... but your post got me thinking Randy. With how often we find ourselves in nickel, what one position upgrade would help us the most against the run (when in nickel)?

A thumper at ILB that can get off blocks? A SS that excels downhill? A penetrating dlineman? A lineman that can eat up blocks to allow others to make the play? Did our secondary injuries mean more focus on coverage? Or is more a matter of just getting guys to play their assignments better?

 

A bit of a guess, but i would say a mobile mid weight all down LB that can go sideline to sideline, and hang in tampa 2 / deep coverages. Our ILBs were seemingly replaced mid year, and while the backups did great work, I feel like that is the position to target. I thought Keenan Robinson was going to be that guy.... 

[Skinsinparadise]

A few more points:

 

The Redskins were 5th in time of possession in 2015.  14th in 2014.  I haven't looked at it game by game but just judging by memory, we won time of possession in many games if I recall even the GB game or at worst it was close.  Clearly, nothing helps a defense more than keeping them off the field where the defense doesn't have the opportunity to give up points and yards.  In that regard, our offense did everything they could to help the defense.  

 

As for the run defense, even during our late season surge, the problem didn't completely go away.  The Bills had a monster game on the ground.  Bears had a decent showing on the ground.  Eagles got behind so barely ran but their lead back in that game, Murray averaged 5.4 yards per carry.  Dallas averaged better than 6 yards a carry and hit 100 yards.   The GB game was clearly bad, too.  

 

This isn't me knocking Barry, just making the point that I don't think our problems stopping the run were isolated.   IMO its a big time macro problem.  I think though perhaps adding another NT and a real run stopping MLB could go a long way towards helping fix the problem. 

 

I stated in other posts some of the positives and to reinforce and add to them:   some amazing goal line stances.  Their red zone defense was good.  And for a decent stretch, they were creating turnovers.  If I recall they led the league in fumble recoveries.  There was also a stretch when the pass defense was pretty good.   They dealt with a lot of turnover and change.  

 

Naturally, to each their own on this point, I think its hard for me to get excited or down about Barry.  I'd give him an incomplete or a C.  Not a positive grade or negative grade.  I think its hard to give a grade based on a curve here because that adds much more subjectivity to it.    Granted, a lot of it is subjective to begin with.

 

My main concern on the subject though is adding talent.  Whether its Barry's fault or not,  IMO this team cannot bring consistent (game to game) pressure on the opposing QB and were one of the worst teams in the league this year in stopping the run -- and IMO, that needs to be fixed if we want to take that next step.   My gut is I doubt it is Barry's fault. 

 

I think ironically if Scot fulfills his mission about making this team one that can run the ball and stop the run -- the sky is the limit because the team has so much going for it already in spite of those weaknesses.

[skinny21]

TSO and SIP - nice posts. It wasn't often that I noticed the defensive coaching as a big problem - the three glaring ones for me were 1) stunting our linemen inside earlier in the season, 2) our OLBs getting blocked by wrs in NE and 3) the second half of the Green Bay game. On the other hand, I recall several blitzes (even zero blitzes) at key junctures, as TSO mentioned. I recall Bates going in on one such and collecting a sack. I think you also have to credit coaches for the young guys, replacing injured players, and transitioning guys like Smith, Jarrett, Dunbar and Hall. And the young guys showed real promise - not just flashes like a Chris Horton or Raheem Moore.

I like the potential for some organic improvement with Dunbar, Jarret, Hall and even Breeland (3rd year) next year. If Ihenaco can stay healthy (assuming he's back) and Culliver returns healthy, I think this has the makings of a pretty decent to good secondary. Pass rush and run D need a boost however - Gallette may help - to really take strides as a whole. ATM, I don't see Barry as part of the problem, and he's done enough to buy more time to find out if he can be part of the solution. Talent added will be key though, particularly in the front 7.

[TSO]

I think SIP's position is probably the more realistic one as there definitely were some issues. I'm just more or less assuming the issues are something he'll be able fix.

For me, it's more of a gut feeling about him than anything else. I just really like the way he handled the injuries and I think 3rd downs, PPG, and turnovers are more important than any other stat or metric.

This isn't some sudden flip on my end to rationalize the Defense's issues... I felt the same way regarding Haslett's Defense's that were terrible in everything except YPG. Taught me how insignificant that stat is in comparison to the above in terms of winning games.

It's a shame the NFL is kind of stuck using that as the overall ranking for Defense's.

[Wildbunny]

YPG is not that relevant to me as it rely way too much on offensive production and punt coverage team. If both sucks you'll have better YPG stats because opposing team have shorter field to go.

[Leonard Washington]

I'm not completely sold.  I liked the fumbles but I'm not sure the defense is meaningfully better. 

[MartinC]

This isn't me knocking Barry, just making the point that I don't think our problems stopping the run were isolated.   IMO its a big time macro problem.  I think though perhaps adding another NT and a real run stopping MLB could go a long way towards helping fix the problem. 

.

 

I think we need better talent on all three levels on defense - its were the most work is needed this offseason IMO. Stopping the run is the starting point and I agree that we need a stud ILB as one of the priority additions (this might be were we use the first round draft pick). Knighton was inconsistent at NT but he might be back next year and he might be the best option we have for at least another year.

 

I'd be looking for a DE to replace Hatcher as well.

 

I do think though some of the issues on defense were schematic. We had big issues setting the edge and often that was because we were stunting the OLB inside and asking an ILB to scrape outside and become the edge defender. Thats asking a lot and when you have marginal talent at ILB asking too much IMO. 

 

Against Green Bay I think we got out coached in respect of their offense against our defense - it was like we set up to limit Rodgers as far as we could and almost dared Green Bay to run, which they gladly did!! I think we knew our secondary was held together with sticky tape and plasters so actually adding a really good corner and safety could help the front 7.

[bedlamVR]

I also dont think either Smith or Kerrigan excel in setting the edge against the run. Where we have been successful against the run it has been when run blitzing and in persuit if the guy gets through then the run is stuffed bingo bango loss of yards or even a fumble. - But when teams buckle down and simplify their running schemes we are going to get beat more times than not.

 

I think as Martin said having the ILBs rotate out to set the edge when they are not really up to it was where the scheme falls down but being able to moive the pass rushers around inside stunts etc etc is how Barry generated pressure and preassure is how you protect your depleted secondary.

 

Not only did Green Bay stifle our ability to substitute but because we were getting run to death they took away the flexibility to change up looks and be as creative in the front 7.

 

Overall i like the aggressive nature of Barry but against the Packers he just got out coached.and out manned, 

 

One thing I would like to see is as some people keep preaching sure up the spine of the defence and this season we have to look at ILBs as a key area to upgrade (Didnt Scott have a hand in the Willis Bowman pair in San Fran?) - That and possibly am enforcer type SS who can help out in run support and maybe look at replacements at NT and FS but i think they might be minor needs. 

 

Last thing we need to do is blow it all up. I have totally had my mind changed about this coaching staff and I have loved they have played players regardless of draft status or contract and fit the schemes ( for the most part) to fit the players... 

[RandyHolt]

Random thoughts....

 

I know I am not alone in scratching my head watching Barry try to stop the run for much of the season. And I feel like it took him a month or 2 to adjust from the horrendous run we were on, no pun intended.

 

And even then it was not significantly better, as I think teams largely want to pass now, so they did. Until GB finished off proper with those nail in the coffin runs late in the game.

 

I don't care what our overall talent level was in the front 7, it was simply good enough to be average vs the run and pass. Baker and Pot Roast provided the needed beef to make the 3-4 have a chance. We had proven LBs and added Preston who may have been my fav LB this year.

 

What happened to Keenan?  Was he injured perhaps... I think I can remember some missed tackles, and our run D did seem to get a little better with him on the bench.  Suddenly, what was asked of him changed to the point that he failed. Before that, he seemed to be the leader of our defense. It was just odd and at the root of the issues we had.

 

I feel like every year our secondary ft.s guys we never heard of. A good DC can get them out there in short zone, simple stuff, and can help coming off the street. I do not pin our failures on the annual DB walking wounded. We weren't getting torched deep - the calling card of a pathetic secondary.  Without Blackmon, a walk on, I bet we do not lead the league in FFs.

 

I think Barry just needed to be more aggressive in blitzing and moving up corners, and be quicker to adjust. When he would blitz, he would bring one extra guy (BFD), and the spare OL was always waiting for him.  Vs Green Bay, its like he never adjusted....

[Wildbunny]

I think we need better talent on all three levels on defense - its were the most work is needed this offseason IMO. Stopping the run is the starting point and I agree that we need a stud ILB as one of the priority additions (this might be were we use the first round draft pick). Knighton was inconsistent at NT but he might be back next year and he might be the best option we have for at least another year.

 

I believe there's two way to answer that problem here. Either we go after the stud ILB that you're talking about and that should get the job done. Or you go for a stud FS that you can play over the top which allows the SS to play closer to the LOS and brings another guy in run support. I guess that'll be sorted out considering what's up for grabs, as players, between FA and Draft.

 

I also dont think either Smith or Kerrigan excel in setting the edge against the run. Where we have been successful against the run it has been when run blitzing and in persuit if the guy gets through then the run is stuffed bingo bango loss of yards or even a fumble. - But when teams buckle down and simplify their running schemes we are going to get beat more times than not.

 

 

Murphy provides good run support. I agree on Smith, but Kerrigan to me is OK. It has more to do with the scheme than anything else to me. Until late in the season our run D sucked mostly because of missed tackles than anything else. Which was solved by switching to Foster/Compton mostly. Then we went south again as injuries piled on again on our backfield.

 

Random thoughts....

 

I know I am not alone in scratching my head watching Barry try to stop the run for much of the season. And I feel like it took him a month or 2 to adjust from the horrendous run we were on, no pun intended.

 

Thinking about it,

Our starting lineup at the beginning of the year was:

- Riley / K. Robinson / T. Robinson

At the end of the year it was:

- Foster / Compton / Jarrett/Hall/whoever was playing SS.

 

So yeah it took time to solve tackling issues, while still making up for that patched secondary we had. Middle of the D is a nice mixture that impact every other parts of your D. So you just really can't change guys every day to find the right formula, because it usually takes time.

 

And I know that Foster/Compton might not be ideal, but those two seems to go along well with this beavis and butt head stuff. That often can make up for limited physicals.

[MartinC]

Murphy provides good run support. I agree on Smith, but Kerrigan to me is OK.

 

Murphy might be the odd man out next year at OLB if Galettte comes back. I'd be tempted to try him at ILB.

[Burgold]

After a year, I figure it's probably to say the final grade isn't in... BUT, I think it's fair to say that Barry and his staff were really good teachers. That MASH unit of a secondary was impressive. In terms of game calling, we know he isn't Detroit bad, but we don't really know how good he is. He seems a little slow to adjust and adapt, but that could partly be because he had relatively few bullets in the chamber and so had limited options. Playing with so many street free agents, udfas and low round draft picks, it's possible that they figured out what they did well, but that they had to bury a lot of the playbook. 

 

The defense feels improved, but there's still plenty of room to grow and that includes both players, game planning, and game calling.

[Wildbunny]

Murphy might be the odd man out next year at OLB if Galettte comes back. I'd be tempted to try him at ILB.

I believe so yeah. I can see him try at ILB but he'll need to improve on coverage duty. Or be a 2 down ILB.

[goskins10]

Murphy might be the odd man out next year at OLB if Galettte comes back. I'd be tempted to try him at ILB.

 

 

Didn't Murphy play a bit of ILB already? I think they are looking to transition him but I could be wrong. I agree if Galette returns, Murphy will not get many minutes at OLB. Having said that I saw a lot of us in a 4-3 with Ker and Smith with their hands in the ground and Murphy rushing from OLB. 

[MartinC]

Didn't Murphy play a bit of ILB already? I think they are looking to transition him but I could be wrong. I agree if Galette returns, Murphy will not get many minutes at OLB. Having said that I saw a lot of us in a 4-3 with Ker and Smith with their hands in the ground and Murphy rushing from OLB. 

 

When we go nickel we typically go to a 4 man line (and we were in nickel more than base). In that 4 down look next year I see Kerrigan and Smith as the ends and Galette as a rush 'backer.

[Skinsinparadise]

Not so much Barry centric but got summary from Keim about improving the D.

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/23221/playoff-lesson-if-redskins-want-to-return-to-postseason-fixing-defense-is-a-must

 

The four remaining defenses all rank in the top 10 in scoring defense, yards per play and yards per game -- and all are in the top 11 in yards per carry. The truth is, the Redskins' offense is far closer to the level needed to advance in the postseason than the defense.

Here’s how the Redskins stacked up in those categories: 28th in yards; 28th in yards per play, 31st in yards per carry, 17th in points. Considering where they started, and some of the players they lost, the Redskins’ defense helped down the stretch. They mostly played smart and with energy; there’s a base, but it needs more (getting younger up front for starters; linebacker Junior Galette, if healthy, will provide a boost for the pass rush)...

Arizona quarterback Carson Palmer played poorly against Green Bay, but the Cardinals advanced because of their defense. The last time Washington ranked in the top-10 in yards per game and points per game? 2008. Since then, the Redskins have finished 17th or worse every year in points per game and 18th or worse in yards per game five times. They were eighth in forced turnovers this season, but they had five games in which they caused at least two turnovers and still surrendered 23 or more points (2-3 record).

 

[Brokenstriker]

best thing Barry had working for him was Kirk Cousins ... keeping drives alive ... more scoring less punting ... owning the clock and forcing the opposition to do the same, better or lose. War of clock attrition with our offense getting more points per possession then they have in years ...

beyond that ... lets consider Barry was starting 2 ILB who were deep back-ups or out of work at the beginning of the season ... and multiple DBs who were out of work at the beginning of the season or long shot rookies. I can appreciate the lack of blitzing in order to keep the weak backfield from being too exposed ... and most of the time I can appreciate the ability to pressure the QB without blitzing. I do want to see keener and more successful in-game responses to the opposition ... adjustments etc. Old enough to remember Richie Pettibon .. he was the king. Tough defense in the first half and better defense in the second half adjusting to what was happening on both sides of the ball. Football-god! Hope Barry channels him some Pettibon.