Jay Gruden and the new Philosophy - and all things coaching...hell it is offseason after all.

[Mr. Sinister]

Don't know if disheartening is the right word, but its what I would use to describe how  anyone would still give a damn what Shanahan has to say. Broken record, but its just very strange.

[Jumbo]

Lol, after reading this thread and considering some of the identified villians I'm convinced that it's really all my fault for being a Redskins fan. Too bad, Im here for the long haul.

 

Way to make it all about you, especially when none of us can remember you in the first place.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HAILSKINSNYC]

I have full confidence in Mcloughan, even though I didn't love our draft.....I have full confidence in Dan Snyder....he's a great owner who's been failed by people who should have done better...Shanny & Gibbs to name a few.....I have no confidence in this coaching staff.

We could win 10+ games with this roster + a quality coaching staff....We'll probably win 6-7 instead

[chipwhich]

 

Allen was utterly trashed after that presser, nothing he said or could say would have gotten any positive reviews. If you watch it even he seems to know it and seemed resigned to taking a lot of flak. He's been stalwart, takes the high road every time, I can respect the man for that. At this point it sure appears that what he said was absolutely true and accurate, it's probably too much to expect that people would actually admit they were wrong and apologize but at least stop trying to twist that into a validation of the eternal suckitude chorus.

 

 

Well you would be wrong in saying nothing he said in that presser could have led to positive reviews.  He could have said one thing other than stupidity about the Redskins Charitable Foundation.  He could have said, we are awful, I have failed in the personnel department, and we are going to hire a GM to manage this organization.

The problem is you and others feel he is a real GM, which he isn't.

 

<Sigh>

 

What it took for this organization to change course was a giant pie in the face.

 

How pathetic.

 

But you hit a homenrun in saying times are promising....they are....and it took a **** show end of year press conference from Bruce Allen to get us to this point.

[LD0506]

<coffee fueled rant in progress>

 

Ehh, I think you're wrong there chip. I have no illusions about what Allen has or hasn't done. Haven't you used the expression clown car? IMO that's WAY to kind, we've been the Springfield tire fire, a festering Jersey toxic waste dump for far too long. The franchise wasn't just a shambles, it was an embarrassment.

 

To me, the problem stemmed from TheDan, made beaucoup bucks on a dot.con and lived the dream of buying "his" team. Since then we have had to suffer through his growth and evolution as an owner. Bruce wasn't a GM the way say Scot is, and if pressed I expect he'd admit it, but a GM in the true sense wasn't possible until TheDan grew up enough to realize that is the way it is done, like it or not, arrogance, hubris, "I know better" aside. Allen has served in my mind more as a psychologist, therapist, life coach and mentor to Dan, and as sad as it is, that's what was needed. Dan never had (and may never really have) the gravitas, the cojones to stand toe-to-toe w/ a Shanahan and get his way. As the owner he can write a check and send him packing but that's all, he never had Mike's respect. That's been a huge sticking point, Dan has demanded respect since he's a rich kid that owns the team, and that doesn't play anywhere. IMO that's the root of a lot of the ridiculous turmoil w/ staff and employees, stupid media coverage and infantile antics. Everyone has been laughing at TheDan from day one, taping "kick me" signs on his back and tripping him in the hallways, and he never figured out why!

 

We all kinda know why so I'll let that go.

 

Bruce had to help Dan grow, as an owner and I guess even as a man to accept that he has the $$, he has the team, he needs to just ignore the rabble and live his life. That's a HUGE job, changing the mind and behavior of a 14yr old w/ 20 yrs experience, and that had to happen not only before anything got better, but before it even could get better.

 

Bruce came here because Shanny would accept him as a guy that wouldn't get in his face, but in the end Allen's skills at diplomacy let Shanny take the fall. I'm ok w/ that, now what does he do? Needs a "real" GM, of which there are very few, and tbh a lot might be hesitant to come in. Get a coach, field a team and let 'em fend for themselves while convincing TheDan what was necessary and convincing Scot that this wasn't the weeping chancre it appeared from the outside.

 

That's one helluva lot to accomplish.

 

And he did.

 

100%? Eh, no, nothing ever is but I still believe he did a lot, I guess we'll see.

 

But in the end he maneuvered the franchise from facepalm to cautious optimism, Gotta give credit where credit's due.

[Peregrine]

Chip, to be honest I think you've managed to make a mountain out of a mole hill with the "He doesn't care if we win he only cares about charities".  Actually, first you made a mole hill out of nothing, and then you made a mountain out of it.  As bad as that press conference was, claiming that he said "he doesnt care if we win" based on that is the equivalent of claiming he said "I like to kick babies".  No, he didnt say either, and just because you don't like him doesn't mean you need to make things up about him.

 

I know creating strawmen to beat down is fun and easy but...lets face it, they ARE made out of straw.

[Reaper Skins]

I posted these links in another thread, but felt they were relevant here as well.  One of the things that really annoys me about Gruden's detractors is when they point to his dismal challenge record for last year.  1 out of 8 is certainly terrible, but I don't ever remember thinking that the challenges he threw were dumb or that we didn't have at least a 50% chance of winning them.  and some of them that we lost were downright head scratching.  His challenge record is at least one element of his coaching that i guarentee will be much better this season, if for no other reason than last season was almost historically unlucky.

http://www.washingto...achs-challenge/

http://www.pro-footb...hes/GrudJa0.htm

[Laron Burgundy]

Perhaps you missed the part where we were a circus prior to Gruden being hired.  As I posted earlier, IMO, John Gruden opened up the kimono and said I am not going out like this.  The circus wasn't all Shanny's fault.  The circus existed prior to Shanny.  This place used to be like the local traveling circus, but turned into Barnum and Bailey.  Gruden did the only thing he could do to stop the media, player, and not to be named insider from selling him down the river like every other coach before him, less maybe Gibbs II.

 

Gruden didn't realize when he took the job that it was as the Ring Leader, he thought he was taking a head coaching position.

Props to him for immediately saying WTF, opening the kimono and saying not it.

 

If it weren't for Gruden, we wouldn't be blessed with a GM.  On this sunday, unlike any in years, I will say AMEN. 

 

I know there are a lot of people who like Gruden, but I would LOVE to hear the logic behind how he is responsible for getting McC.  My only guess is you mean his bumbling made Allen realize he wasn't capable of being a real gm, otherwise that last line was so far off it's mind-blowing.

[Laron Burgundy]

This is total hindsight and simply untrue. Gibbs in 2006 was considered a total failure and "clown show" was probably one of the nicer terms used around here to describe what went on.

 

You weren't here, but I vividly remember a very vocal and large contingent of posters here constantly trashing every Gibbs presser ("super smart" and "fought their guts out" were not used endearingly like they are now), going off on his "Christian attachment to Brunell" (I kid you not), blasting him for putting Brandon Lloyd in the doghouse, constantly referring to the offensive play-calling as backwards and ridiculously conservative (run, run, pass), he was "over the hill" and "should've never returned", his pandering to Portis was bashed and Betts became an underdog favorite, etc...

 

...

 

Gibbs got the most out of that roster. It had little to do with his pressers. It had more to do with what he had to work with than anything else. We saw him struggle when the personnel didn't mesh as well. If the players are that sensitive to where it affects their ability to succeed because their coach publicly criticized them... how the heck are they going to be able to handle the pressure of consistently winning in an incredibly competitive league?   

 

Firstly, to compare any season under gibbs to the fiasco that was last season is completely re-writing history.  I know we at ES take our opinions very seriously, but I don't much care what a few posters commented on his coaching style.  Sportscasters thought he may have been too old for the game, but that's a far cry from being a weekly embarrassment.

 

Secondly, you say players get roasted by their coaches to the news all the time, I would like you to back that up.  I can't recall the last time that's happened.  There have been LOTS of qb's worse than Griffin, and yet I can't recall a single head coach going in front of reporters and airing their grievances.

 

I'm sorry but deflecting blame is NOT leadership.  You think the players see it as that way?  That is the reason coaches don't call out players like that, because leaders don't do that in public.  Has nothing to do with stroking egos, if anything, Gruden doing that was an ego trip of his own.  Gibbs and Gruden certainly have different coaching styles, but do you think Gibbs was dishonest in his assessment of players in meetings?  I don't think for one second that Gibbs didn't pour over mistakes, and here's the important part, behind closed doors.

 

You're right that pressers don't make a coach, but you don't try to coach from a presser either.  What Gruden did was dumb.  There's no other side to that argument.  Was there a reason to put out a laundry list of complaints to the media?  Chip likes to say it was opening the kimono, but just ragging on one player isn't some kind of noble statement.  To the very end he said he thought Haslett was a great d coordinator and that the offensive line played well.  And guess what, that is what you're SUPPOSED to say.  Gruden is supposed to be a leader of men, you can't do that while backstabbing guys you are supposed to be leading.  It would be in poor taste in ANY work environment, so it has nothing to do with players not being able to take the heat.  There's a time and place for everything.

[skinny21]

It was unfortunate that there was no QB coach buffer last year, and maybe more unfortunate that Gruden (along with McVay) was the de facto QB coach when the above happened.

Some have argued that Gruden played it that way to humble Griffin... if that's true, I'd think benching Robert was enough to get the point across.

Water under the bridge for me, but I hope Gruden learned from it. Media lives for baiting people, next time maybe a "I'll discuss that with Robert" would be a better type of response.

Edit: don't get me wrong - Griffin needs to learn too - upfront and honest is great when things are hunky dory, but when the **** hits the fan, you got a put a shell up.

[TSO]

Firstly, to compare any season under gibbs to the fiasco that was last season is completely re-writing history.  I know we at ES take our opinions very seriously, but I don't much care what a few posters commented on his coaching style.  Sportscasters thought he may have been too old for the game, but that's a far cry from being a weekly embarrassment.

I'm sorry you don't, but I think the comparison is totally valid. It's not just about ES opinions... Gibbs won one more game in 2006, so you acting like it's "incomparable" in terms of embarrassment fails on that basis alone. I get it, though. It's Gibbs. He tugs on all of our heart strings.

But the fact is, you can argue that 2006 was an even bigger embarrassment because we were coming off a playoff year where we went 10-6. We just signed a bunch of FAs to huge contracts (Gibbs had final say as we all love to point out when it comes to Shanny). We brought in Saunders to "update" and upgrade our offense.

And then we just completely stank. To the point where Gibbs used George Michael (local NBC reporter) to go off on the team publicly. Look it up. 

Gruden, in comparison, took a team that stank (3-13 the previous year) and actually improved their record by one game while losing his starting QB for a large chunk of the season. Of course, we still stank and I'm not making excuses. This is just to validate the comparison here a bit. 

But I really don't care if you think it's an invalid comparison. You have your measuring stick for a "fiasco" and it clearly doesn't fit mine. Or most people's. 2006 was definitely a fiasco by most measuring sticks, as was last year.

 

The losing is what makes it that way more than anything else, and I don't think you remember 2006 as well if you think Gibbs had things under control better or something. It was known at the time that Gibbs attempted to take more of a backseat and allow others to really run things, where he was just a delegate and not much more. Gibbs admitted this himself.

 

I think it's fair to say that's as bad as it gets if you're a Head Coach. To his credit, he took a more "hands-on" approach towards the end of the season and the team started to play better.     

 

Secondly, you say players get roasted by their coaches to the news all the time, I would like you to back that up.  I can't recall the last time that's happened.  There have been LOTS of qb's worse than Griffin, and yet I can't recall a single head coach going in front of reporters and airing their grievances.

See, this right here pisses me off, to be frank. I NEVER SAID THAT. 

 

This is where I was worried this thread would go. Where people are so damn entrenched in their positions they not only refuse to acknowledge the other side, they start making it up as they go.

 

These posts are the closest I came on that topic:

 

And only a fool doesn't understand the difference between peers and subordinates. The coaches are peers, essentially. You will almost NEVER hear them criticize each other publicly. The players are subordinates. Some coaches use that as a tool. The infamous Parcells would blast players all the time, but almost never coaches. This is something you learn in elementary school for crying out loud. You don't really see teachers going off on each other, but they'll certainly do so with the students.

I think the whole issue about Gruden criticizing his players is completely overblown. You take every presser, add up the amount of times he's praised a guy versus criticized him, and you're going to get a ratio like 10:1 in favor of praise. It's WHO he criticized that has turned this into a huge issue, that's all. Don't care how much anyone denies it. It's clear as day. 

 

He's not the first, nor the last, coach who will publicly blast a player. It's rarer these days, for sure, I'll give you that. But that's not necessarily a good thing. I think egos need to be stroked way too much and it's sickening.

 

So from those two statements you got "you say players get roasted by their coaches to the news all the time"?

 

Don't do that, man. It ruins the conversation.   

 

I'm sorry but deflecting blame is NOT leadership.  You think the players see it as that way?  That is the reason coaches don't call out players like that, because leaders don't do that in public.  Has nothing to do with stroking egos, if anything, Gruden doing that was an ego trip of his own.  Gibbs and Gruden certainly have different coaching styles, but do you think Gibbs was dishonest in his assessment of players in meetings?  I don't think for one second that Gibbs didn't pour over mistakes, and here's the important part, behind closed doors.

 

You're right that pressers don't make a coach, but you don't try to coach from a presser either.  What Gruden did was dumb.  There's no other side to that argument.  Was there a reason to put out a laundry list of complaints to the media?  Chip likes to say it was opening the kimono, but just ragging on one player isn't some kind of noble statement.  To the very end he said he thought Haslett was a great d coordinator and that the offensive line played well.  And guess what, that is what you're SUPPOSED to say.  Gruden is supposed to be a leader of men, you can't do that while backstabbing guys you are supposed to be leading.  It would be in poor taste in ANY work environment, so it has nothing to do with players not being able to take the heat.  There's a time and place for everything.

 

Every single player who has been asked about this topic has said that Gruden never went public with anything he didn't tell them beforehand. They were never "surprised". So you calling it "backstabbing" is certainly over-stating things at best.

 

I just did a quick google search because I know I read about this more than a few times, here's what I found within a minute: 

 

 

“So, the standard for Jay Gruden and how we judge what he said about Robert was set by Mike Shanahan,” former Washington tight end and current Redskins analyst Chris Cooley said on The Doug Gottlieb Show. “Because Mike had the read-between-the-lines press conferences and kind of tried to play things (both ways). That was a fun game in the media: What did he say? What did he mean?”

 

Jay Gruden, however, isn’t so coy. No, Jay Gruden is a sledgehammer.

 

“Jay Gruden has the curse as a head coach of honesty,” Cooley said. “He tells Robert everything that he’s going to say in the media. He tells everyone in that locker room – and I’ve talked to those guys – exactly what he thinks. But then he says it to the media as well.”

 

But wouldn’t his players hate him for that? No, Cooley said. In fact, it’s just the opposite.

 

“Once you know this guy’s honest and he’s going to treat everyone the same way, you respect it,” Cooley explained. “And that’s what Jay Gruden’s doing. People don’t believe him, but his press conference is exactly what he means and exactly what he feels – and I honestly believe that. It’s hard because of the Mike Shanahan standard of, ‘Did he really mean that? Or was he trying to send a message?’ Jay’s not doing that. That message has been sent in the locker room before he stands up on the podium.”

 

Now you're going to tell me how Cooley's opinion means less than yours when it comes to players he actually talks to, of course. I know.

 

All I'm trying to do here is get you to open your mind a bit about this. There is another way to look at this... it doesn't have to be so black and white like you're making it. 

 

I really do understand where you're coming from, though. Jay certainly made mistakes, and part of those mistakes were the way he handled things publicly as you're so honed in on. 

 

He'll tell you that himself: 

 

"I think it was a mistake on my part," Gruden said of publicly calling out Griffin in the first place. "After a loss like that, we're very disappointed in the way we played, and the question came up about how we played, and all that stuff from that. I just answered with the first thing that came to my mind, and sometimes the first thing that comes to your mind isn't the smartest thing. It wasn't the right thing to do on my part."

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24823011/jay-gruden-apologizes-for-calling-out-rg3-after-qb-called-out-team

 

Not the end of the world. And we've seen a different Robert in the media, haven't we? Is it at all remotely possible to you that the entire situation helped?  

 

For me, if anyone deserved, at that point, to be publicly criticized it was Robert. I feel like Robert has taken enough subtle and direct jabs via social media or his pressers/interviews at his coaches that he deserved it. This isn't new for me. I've had issues with how he's been acting since late 2012 when everyone was still worshiping him. I can pull up the posts to attest to that. I don't want to get too deep into this now, but I'm just mentioning that because I want you to understand how and why someone could look at this completely differently than you, and legitimately so.   

 

And what bothers me most about this is how everything else gets ignored. Remember the Britt McHenry report talking about how Robert has lost the locker room and gets no respect? What did Gruden do then for Robert? 

 

The report also drew a fiery post-game response from Redskins coach Jay Gruden, who was asked about it following Washington’s loss to Minnesota on Sunday. Gruden called the report "amateurish," the ESPN reporter an "amateur" and said the report was "totally not true."

........

 

But McHenry did not back down on any of the questions I asked her, including if she was bothered were by the personal nature of the comments by Jay Gruden.

 

"At 3-6 going into a bye week, I’m sure Jay Gruden and the rest of his staff have other more pressing concerns," McHenry said. "But he’s an NFL head coach, and I figured he would publicly defend his starting quarterback. He’s doing his job. I was also doing mine. My report was not false. ESPN has several sources to confirm it."

 

http://www.si.com/nfl/2014/11/04/robert-griffin-iii-washington-redskins-britt-mchenry-espn#

 

You know, what's funny is the fact that Gruden 1) isn't just any "NFL Head Coach" like McHenry used here as a refutation and 2) that he DID criticize Robert, only proves that his defense of him was real there. 

 

All offseason last year Gruden was overly effusive in his praise of Robert. Even when there were reports that he was frustrated with his progress (who wouldn't be), he never said anything openly. Against the Texans, he literally called a game that couldn't have been easier for a QB with next to nothing but screen passes, quick hitches, and short routes in general. It's not at all odd to see how things could've escalated and rightly so. The criticism didn't happen in a vacuum. There is a lot we don't see that easily could've been the main impetus.         

 

In the end, LB, don't you think you'd be better off talking about a nuanced topic with, uhm, more nuance? I don't mean that condescendingly... I sincerely believe you'll have more enjoyable discussions this way that actually inform and expand on ideas, instead of just staying stagnant and entrenched. Let's not ruin this thread like so many before it.   

[Laron Burgundy]

I'm sorry you don't, but I think the comparison is totally valid. It's not just about ES opinions... Gibbs won one more game in 2006, so you acting like it's "incomparable" in terms of embarrassment fails on that basis alone. I get it, though. It's Gibbs. He tugs on all of our heart strings.

But the fact is, you can argue that 2006 was an even bigger embarrassment because we were coming off a playoff year where we went 10-6. We just signed a bunch of FAs to huge contracts (Gibbs had final say as we all love to point out when it comes to Shanny). We brought in Saunders to "update" and upgrade our offense.

And then we just completely stank. To the point where Gibbs used George Michael (local NBC reporter) to go off on the team publicly. Look it up. 

Gruden, in comparison, took a team that stank (3-13 the previous year) and actually improved their record by one game while losing his starting QB for a large chunk of the season. Of course, we still stank and I'm not making excuses. This is just to validate the comparison here a bit. 

But I really don't care if you think it's an invalid comparison. You have your measuring stick for a "fiasco" and it clearly doesn't fit mine. Or most people's. 2006 was definitely a fiasco by most measuring sticks, as was last year.

 

The losing is what makes it that way more than anything else, and I don't think you remember 2006 as well if you think Gibbs had things under control better or something. It was known at the time that Gibbs attempted to take more of a backseat and allow others to really run things, where he was just a delegate and not much more. Gibbs admitted this himself.

 

I think it's fair to say that's as bad as it gets if you're a Head Coach. To his credit, he took a more "hands-on" approach towards the end of the season and the team started to play better.

We all knew that 2006 team was not a playoff caliber team going in to the season. You just don't make all the changes we made in that offseason because you believe your team is good. Regardless, losses don't in themselves make a season a fiasco. We were -70 points on the year, we had 4 losses by a combine 10 points and another loss in overtime. That is a FAR cry from the -137 points last year and the numerous blowout losses.

 

See, this right here pisses me off, to be frank. I NEVER SAID THAT. 

 

This is where I was worried this thread would go. Where people are so damn entrenched in their positions they not only refuse to acknowledge the other side, they start making it up as they go.

 

These posts are the closest I came on that topic:

 

 

So from those two statements you got "you say players get roasted by their coaches to the news all the time"?

 

Don't do that, man. It ruins the conversation.

Ok, it was hyperbole, but the sentiment was taken from your post. You say that coaches call out players in public, and yet you still do not back it up with a concrete example. I think that weakens your argument. Still looking for a specific instance where a coach went off on one player in a public forum.

 

Every single player who has been asked about this topic has said that Gruden never went public with anything he didn't tell them beforehand. They were never "surprised". So you calling it "backstabbing" is certainly over-stating things at best.

 

I just did a quick google search because I know I read about this more than a few times, here's what I found within a minute: 

 

 

Now you're going to tell me how Cooley's opinion means less than yours when it comes to players he actually talks to, of course. I know.

 

All I'm trying to do here is get you to open your mind a bit about this. There is another way to look at this... it doesn't have to be so black and white like you're making it.

Except your quotes don't entail him telling the players that he was going to tell the media about it. Probably most coaches are upfront with mistakes they see from players, you have to be if you want them to learn from them, but just because he told players what he thought about their performance beforehand does NOT mean he told rg3 he was going to the media with it. In fact Cooley notes this by saying "BUT then he says it to the media as well."

The problem isn't at all that he had those critiques, it is that he went to the media about it. Perhaps you don't want to call it backstabbing, but it's a leap in logic to say those quotes mean that Jay told the players he was going to tell the media. I guarantee most players assumed critique to their play was reserved for the film room sessions.

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24823011/jay-gruden-apologizes-for-calling-out-rg3-after-qb-called-out-team

 

Not the end of the world. And we've seen a different Robert in the media, haven't we? Is it at all remotely possible to you that the entire situation helped?  

 

For me, if anyone deserved, at that point, to be publicly criticized it was Robert. I feel like Robert has taken enough subtle and direct jabs via social media or his pressers/interviews at his coaches that he deserved it. This isn't new for me. I've had issues with how he's been acting since late 2012 when everyone was still worshiping him. I can pull up the posts to attest to that. I don't want to get too deep into this now, but I'm just mentioning that because I want you to understand how and why someone could look at this completely differently than you, and legitimately so.

The quote from Robert that is critiqued there is something that was blown 100% out of proportion. A head coach certainly should have been able to reel that in instead of adding fuel to the fire. The quote from RG3 was in pertaining to his rookie year and he basically was saying he played great his rookie year because the team was playing great, and vice versa to playing poor. In fact in that presser rg3, numerous times, said that he played poorly and needs to play better.

Media ran with it as RG3 saying he was Aaron Rodgers and his team makes him look bad, but that is pretty far off from the context. RG3 was different to the media immediately after that quote, before Gruden went off on him. So no, I think he learned his lesson from the media backlash, not from Gruden airing his grievances.

In the end, LB, don't you think you'd be better off talking about a nuanced topic with, uhm, more nuance? I don't mean that condescendingly... I sincerely believe you'll have more enjoyable discussions this way that actually inform and expand on ideas, instead of just staying stagnant and entrenched. Let's not ruin this thread like so many before it.

Now, just because my lil ol' point of view isn't the same as yours doesn't mean yours are suddenly correct.

[TSO]

We all knew that 2006 team was not a playoff caliber team going in to the season. You just don't make all the changes we made in that offseason because you believe your team is good. Regardless, losses don't in themselves make a season a fiasco. We were -70 points on the year, we had 4 losses by a combine 10 points and another loss in overtime. That is a FAR cry from the -137 points last year and the numerous blowout losses.

 

So, excuses and detailed analyses only for Gibbs-led teams, got it. I think it's unfortunate you're so willing to ignore just how massive a disappointment 2006 was with "well, we weren't that very good that's why we went out and did all those things"... I mean, wow. That speaks for itself.

We can play the stats game all day... but the main difference is clear. Gregg Williams > Jim Haslett, so I guess you got me there!

 

Ok, it was hyperbole, but the sentiment was taken from your post. You say that coaches call out players in public, and yet you still do not back it up with a concrete example. I think that weakens your argument. Still looking for a specific instance where a coach went off on one player in a public forum.

Ok, it was hyperbole but nothing. My sentiment was clear, that Jay wasn't the first, nor will be the last, to publicly criticize a player. The burden of proof is on you for making a general statement that it never happens. I've already given one example in Parcells. Just off the top of my head, didn't Tomlin criticize Roethlisberger last season or something?

 

My argument hasn't weakened in the slightest, you see, because I never said it was the norm. I even said Gruden made a mistake and he admitted it. My argument was always that it's being overblown and you, my friend, are actually the best argument I have right now, lol!

 

You couldn't make your point without hyperbole. Get it?    

 

Except your quotes don't entail him telling the players that he was going to tell the media about it. Probably most coaches are upfront with mistakes they see from players, you have to be if you want them to learn from them, but just because he told players what he thought about their performance beforehand does NOT mean he told rg3 he was going to the media with it. In fact Cooley notes this by saying "BUT then he says it to the media as well."

 

Oh, poor wittle pwayers (really, pwayer, singular). They got an owie cuz their coach said publicly what he told them behind closed doors. And he didn't specifically tell them that instant that he'd be honest about it openly. The pain, the pain!

 

The problem isn't at all that he had those critiques, it is that he went to the media about it. Perhaps you don't want to call it backstabbing, but it's a leap in logic to say those quotes mean that Jay told the players he was going to tell the media. I guarantee most players assumed critique to their play was reserved for the film room sessions.

 

You guarantee? How? That's another one where the burden of proof has been so willingly applied onto yourself. 

 

See, I can have fun and throw guarantees around, too. Watch this: "I guarantee LB doesn't have a clue and that the players knew Gruden is an honest guy behind closed doors and in the media, so it was no surprise!" 

 

And saying "he went to the media about it" is a little bit of a falsification to exaggerate it. It's not like he walked up to a reporter and offered his life story, lol. Those are mandatory pressers/interviews for the most part, and he answered questions that were asked of him. He made the mistake of being too honest at a frustrating time. You want to make it a massive deal and make post after post about it, again, you're only proving my point. So thanks.

 

You keep saying players, plural. What other players, outside of Griffin, did he really criticize? And please don't tell me Hatcher. That was nonsense. 

 

Let me guess, another "okay, that was hyperbole" from you?

 

The quote from Robert that is critiqued there is something that was blown 100% out of proportion. A head coach certainly should have been able to reel that in instead of adding fuel to the fire. The quote from RG3 was in pertaining to his rookie year and he basically was saying he played great his rookie year because the team was playing great, and vice versa to playing poor. In fact in that presser rg3, numerous times, said that he played poorly and needs to play better.

 

Really don't want to go down this road, it's been killed here, but in my view he should've never said anything about anyone else, period. It's not his job to critique/coach those around him or say what they need to do. That's for the coaches. And if he had just an ounce of awareness he would've known that would've been blown up by the media, if only because it was him. It was simply NOT THE TIME.  

 

 

Now, just because my lil ol' point of view isn't the same as yours doesn't mean yours are suddenly correct.

 

Clearly, that's exactly what I was implying.

[Laron Burgundy]

Ok, it was hyperbole but nothing. My sentiment was clear, that Jay wasn't the first, nor will be the last, to publicly criticize a player. The burden of proof is on you for making a general statement that it never happens. I've already given one example in Parcells. Just off the top of my head, didn't Tomlin criticize Roethlisberger last season or something?

 

My argument hasn't weakened in the slightest, you see, because I never said it was the norm. I even said Gruden made a mistake and he admitted it. My argument was always that it's being overblown and you, my friend, are actually the best argument I have right now, lol!

 

You couldn't make your point without hyperbole. Get it?    

 

 

Oh, poor wittle pwayers (really, pwayer, singular). They got an owie cuz their coach said publicly what he told them behind closed doors. And he didn't specifically tell them that instant that he'd be honest about it openly. The pain, the pain!

 

 

You guarantee? How? That's another one where the burden of proof has been so willingly applied onto yourself. 

 

See, I can have fun and throw guarantees around, too. Watch this: "I guarantee LB doesn't have a clue and that the players knew Gruden is an honest guy behind closed doors and in the media, so it was no surprise!" 

 

And saying "he went to the media about it" is a little bit of a falsification to exaggerate it. It's not like he walked up to a reporter and offered his life story, lol. Those are mandatory pressers/interviews for the most part, and he answered questions that were asked of him. He made the mistake of being too honest at a frustrating time. You want to make it a massive deal and make post after post about it, again, you're only proving my point. So thanks.

 

You keep saying players, plural. What other players, outside of Griffin, did he really criticize? And please don't tell me Hatcher. That was nonsense. 

 

Let me guess, another "okay, that was hyperbole" from you?

 

 

Don't recall Tomlin ever listing roethlisberger's mistakes.  Maybe you're thinking his OC, but that was a spat behind closed doors.  And you listed Parcells.  When, the 90's?  You're making an argument that coaches call players out, just not as often as they used to and the most recent example you're coming up with was 20 years ago.  I'm not even sure if Parcells went into detail on whatever it is you claim he said.  The burden of proof is on me to prove that it never happens?  You can't prove a negative, c'mon sub, you know that.

 

Gruden himself said those statements to the media were dumb, and now you defend them as... not dumb?  How many times do coaches go into a player's mistakes?  Yes I guarantee the players didn't think Gruden would go to the media about it.  Why?  Because it never happens.  Yes, he's honest.  No, they probably didn't think he was that dumb.

 

I don't know what kind of work environment you work in, but it is NEVER an appropriate for management to critique an employee in public.  Frankly I'm shocked that this isn't making sense to you.  It's not a matter of players getting feeling hurt, it's that it is an inappropriate way to run ANYTHING.  You, out of one side of your mouth, admit it was a mistake by gruden, and out the other side you downplay it as the player's fault if he takes offense to it.

[chipwhich]

Chip, to be honest I think you've managed to make a mountain out of a mole hill with the "He doesn't care if we win he only cares about charities".  Actually, first you made a mole hill out of nothing, and then you made a mountain out of it.  As bad as that press conference was, claiming that he said "he doesnt care if we win" based on that is the equivalent of claiming he said "I like to kick babies".  No, he didnt say either, and just because you don't like him doesn't mean you need to make things up about him.

 

I know creating strawmen to beat down is fun and easy but...lets face it, they ARE made out of straw.

 

Strawman argument is the ES equivalent to I have nothing to say.

 

Really, did you watch the Bruce Allen presser?  It was more than disturbing.  He really didn't seem to get it.  I guarantee there was a bunch of meetings after that presser trying to understand what everyone was so upset about.

 

As a business owner, I could never go in front of my employees/customers and say I know we lost money, I know we didn't give you a raise, I know there are issues but our charitable foundation was on point.

I know there are a lot of people who like Gruden, but I would LOVE to hear the logic behind how he is responsible for getting McC.  My only guess is you mean his bumbling made Allen realize he wasn't capable of being a real gm, otherwise that last line was so far off it's mind-blowing.

 

I don't like or dislike Gruden.  I say you can't evaluate Gruden because his body of work can't be reviewed because the **** show he got handed.

 

Allen was a bumbling idiot in that presser.  I don't know how anyone could call for Gruden's head after watching Allen.  And it wasn't just his presser, the proof was in his moves as a GM.

[TSO]

Don't recall Tomlin ever listing roethlisberger's mistakes. Maybe you're thinking his OC, but that was a spat behind closed doors. And you listed Parcells. When, the 90's? You're making an argument that coaches call players out, just not as often as they used to and the most recent example you're coming up with was 20 years ago. I'm not even sure if Parcells went into detail on whatever it is you claim he said.

This is just a really unfortunate post in so many ways. Can't believe it, really. I tried real hard to make some valid points for you to at least acknowledge how a more balanced view on the topic could occur legitimately, yet you completely ignored all of that and just focused on what you wanted to.

Just read your sentence over again, here, man. It's amazing. You actually attempt to say my argument is something it wasn't, but you qualify it with what I qualified it with, and then proceed to ignore that qualification when attempting to refute it. Wha!?

But you know what? I'm going to play. I'm an idiot for doing so because I know you're going to downplay/omit/ignore at your leisure, but unlike you, I'm going to actually attempt to answer your questions and refute the points you're making.

First, what Mike Tomlin said that caused some controversy (which was overblown as usual, of course):

“He (Ben) hasn’t been as accurate as he had been,” Steelers coach Tomlin said according to ESPN.

http://www.givemesport.com/527202-pittsburgh-steelers-coach-criticizes-ben-roethlisberger

Quick google search turned up two articles right way:

That’s what Kentucky football coach Mark Stoops did Monday during his weekly press luncheon

........................

“There were some plays there that I thought were not acceptable,” Stoops said, “and it’s certain guys that I’ve rewarded with scholarships and done some things and put it out there to help him, and he’s making the decision not to help us by doing his own thing.”

Given that, we sort of figured the coach was talking about J.D. Harmon, a sophomore from Paducah (shown above recovering a fumble Saturday) who not that long ago was being praised for his performance on special teams. So a little later in the press conference, Stoops was asked whether he indeed was talking about Harmon.

“Yes, I am,” said Stoops, who added that he doesn’t like to call out players by name.

For a coach who has said “I don’t throw players under the bus,” it sure sounded like he was throwing a player under the bus.

http://johnclay.bloginky.com/2014/11/10/should-a-coach-call-out-a-player-by-name/

Browns head coach Mike Pettine criticized rookie running back Terrance West after Sunday's loss in Buffalo.

His ire was focused on one play when the Browns were trailing 7-3 in the third quarter. West fumbled the football, allowing Bills defensive end Jerry Hughes to return it for a touchdown.

"You can't be that loose with the football, it's inexcusable," Pettine said. "West really changed the whole flow of the game. It would have been a one-score game, and that's the frustrating thing.

"Close games are going to come down to turnovers. Like I said, the West fumble changed everything. It's inexcusable."

http://fftoolbox.scout.com/football/nfl_news.cfm?news_id=8323

Enough?

The burden of proof is on me to prove that it never happens? You can't prove a negative, c'mon sub, you know that.

Really? You want to play that game? Elementary school debate team strategy fun!

Okay.

Laron Burgundy is NEVER smart.

Laron Burgundy NEVER adds anything to any discussion.

Laron Burgundy NEVER actually reads what he's responding to.

Laron Burgundy NEVER gets people's positions accurately, but instead exaggerates them so he can attack them better, and then downplays it when he gets busted doing so.

Hey, I don't have to prove any of the above, so don't ask me to.

Gruden himself said those statements to the media were dumb, and now you defend them as... not dumb? How many times do coaches go into a player's mistakes? Yes I guarantee the players didn't think Gruden would go to the media about it. Why? Because it never happens. Yes, he's honest. No, they probably didn't think he was that dumb.

No, I defend them in the sense that they were overblown, see the difference? I can both acknowledge that he made a mistake while simultaneously understanding how it happened and also how some good came out of it. This is what we call a balanced perspective. I know, crazy right?

Like, how when you essentially lied about my position and continue to ask me to prove something I didn't say, admit it was hyperbole on your end, and the entire board decided not to make a hundred posts about it. You made a mistake, you see, and it could speak to something deep-rooted in you... and maybe I should bring it up every single second.

Maybe I shouldn't ever let you forget your mistake.

Maybe I shouldn't have any understanding as to how it happened.

I think it'd only be fair, since you're asking for me to do the same with Gruden, right?

I don't know what kind of work environment you work in, but it is NEVER an appropriate for management to critique an employee in public. Frankly I'm shocked that this isn't making sense to you. It's not a matter of players getting feeling hurt, it's that it is an inappropriate way to run ANYTHING. You, out of one side of your mouth, admit it was a mistake by gruden, and out the other side you downplay it as the player's fault if he takes offense to it.

Frankly, I'm shocked at your reading comprehension. I acknowledged a million times that it was a mistake, what I'm arguing about here is the disproportionate punishment Gruden is receiving for that mistake.

YOU. ARE. PROOF. OF. THAT.

And I think comparing a profession where mandatory pressers/interviews take place and the men involved are constantly in the limelight with what any of us do here (unless they happen to be celebrities) is, at the very least, naive. And extremely so.

I think it was way overblown (just to reiterate, this is my overarching point here... not that it wasn't a mistake. Do I need to repeat that one more time?)

He said something he wished he hadn't in the heat of the moment. That doesn't nullify the truth of what he said, nor does it change the fact that he didn't "back-stab" like you claimed.

I'm getting real tired of you dragging this discussion down, honestly. You ignore every point I make and question I ask of you (for instance, I asked you to name the other players he's criticized since you keep using plural, another elementary school tactic to make your point sound stronger than it is), only to ask ones of me that are completely irrelevant to the points I've made (like you constantly asking me to prove which coaches publicly criticize their players recently, which I clearly stated is rare and doesn't happen these days and even gave you Tomlin when I didn't have to).

What you call "talking out of both sides of my mouth" is what I call "having a balanced perspective". It's clear to me, at this point, you refuse to have one.

So, with that, I'll allow you to have the last word you so clearly, desperately want to have on this matter. And I hope you'll feel satisfied enough with your victory to let it go so that this thread can generate the fruitful discussion again that it once had before all this silliness (hopefully, the Allen tangent already hurt it a little).

So let it all out, LB. I'm an idiot, I know.

[LD0506]

Man, I wish SOMEONE would get the last word on this..................  

[The Wicked Wop]

Strawman argument is the ES equivalent to I have nothing to say.

 

Really, did you watch the Bruce Allen presser?  It was more than disturbing.  He really didn't seem to get it.  I guarantee there was a bunch of meetings after that presser trying to understand what everyone was so upset about.

 

As a business owner, I could never go in front of my employees/customers and say I know we lost money, I know we didn't give you a raise, I know there are issues but our charitable foundation was on point.

 

 

I find this funny as the Skins were already in discussions with SM about joining the team before the presser.  I watched the presser that day and what do you expect Allen to do, explain the teams private conversations or their actual plans before anything was finalized?  

 

The jist of the press conference if you were actually listening and understand the symbolism of the Charitable Foundation comment was (direct quotes):

 

"We understand 4-12 is not acceptable to our great fans and it’s not acceptable to anyone in this building."

 

"Over the next month or so, we’ll have this going in the right direction.”

 

 

Tell me this hasn't occurred by all accounts?

[bedlamVR]

I think I created a mini monster . And to be honest as the media attention has focused on the team and there were more opportunities to hear Jay this year there are things that I hear him saying that really may well have changed my opinions significantly and I am indeed the buffoon for starting this thread in the way that I did.

 

Jay may not be ultimately the guy who gets us to the promised land but a lot of what he has said in the last few weeks and has been saying since the end of the season,  if I had been listening without my prejudiced ears on, has been introspective almost self effacing, positive, and keen to build on the positives as well as the mistakes of the past, without loosing his self assured tone . Looking back I think last season was a learning curve - there was a lot he did that from an outsider perspective (always the safest place to be)  I think he could have done better and I think from what he has said he feels the same way divested from the moment.  

 

I think he may have wanted much publicised criticisms of his starting QB (Griffin) back (and I am focusing on this because of the on-going back and forth between TSO and LB) . Not because to him (and many others) they were not justified but they provided an easy stick for the media and people outside the team to beat him with . It also allowed the negative attitude cloud that surrounded the team in 2013 to be resurrected with gusto and I am confident Jay if afforded the opportunity again would have dealt with the situation differently.

 

Its May - Week 1 of the OTAs are done - closer and closer to actual football news - time to be positive... this year will be the year this year will be the year this year will be the year ....

[Laron Burgundy]

I don't like or dislike Gruden.  I say you can't evaluate Gruden because his body of work can't be reviewed because the **** show he got handed.

 

Allen was a bumbling idiot in that presser.  I don't know how anyone could call for Gruden's head after watching Allen.  And it wasn't just his presser, the proof was in his moves as a GM.

 

But how did Gruden get us McC, which is what you said.  That's the part I just don't see the connection.

[Jumbo]

I think I created a mini monster . And to be honest as the media attention has focused on the team and there were more opportunities to hear Jay this year there are things that I hear him saying that really may well have changed my opinions significantly and I am indeed the buffoon for starting this thread in the way that I did.

 

Jay may not be ultimately the guy who gets us to the promised land but a lot of what he has said in the last few weeks and has been saying since the end of the season,  if I had been listening without my prejudiced ears on, has been introspective almost self effacing, positive, and keen to build on the positives as well as the mistakes of the past, without loosing his self assured tone . Looking back I think last season was a learning curve - there was a lot he did that from an outsider perspective (always the safest place to be)  I think he could have done better and I think from what he has said he feels the same way divested from the moment.  

 

I think he may have wanted much publicised criticisms of his starting QB (Griffin) back (and I am focusing on this because of the on-going back and forth between TSO and LB) . Not because to him (and many others) they were not justified but they provided an easy stick for the media and people outside the team to beat him with . It also allowed the negative attitude cloud that surrounded the team in 2013 to be resurrected with gusto and I am confident Jay if afforded the opportunity again would have dealt with the situation differently.

 

Its May - Week 1 of the OTAs are done - closer and closer to actual football news - time to be positive... this year will be the year this year will be the year this year will be the year ....

 

Bedlam- that was great post IMO, simply because it shows your mind is still willing to engage in an open manner, you use a fair tone, and you're willing to apply such self-examination and reflection even after all this time of having firm opinions. Nor do you just fold or capitulate. You reflect and critically think.

 

Respect. 

 

What side of any argument anyone comes down can often be less material then how the person got there and how they present and discuss their views. 

[Jumbo]

Man, I wish SOMEONE would get the last word on this..................  

  

 

I hear you. I already mothballed one post dissecting another post from a couple days back, and now a second one written last night is hanging in limbo because I think that further "pressing my points" (and both posts I responded to offered me quite a lot of material to press--tempting   ) and figuring that many would read it and get it, I'm sure it would also just continue contentiousness and what I see as some of that more ego- and emotionally-driven "arguing" (which are important entertainment staples for many on a message board and very human) than what I'd call "discussion."

 

Right now, I think I'm preferring a "settling down" if possible (that's just me as an ES'er, not giving a "mod directive") by not fanning any flames and hope for still decent future discussion of all views on the topic of Jay as HC, adding new articles as they appear. 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Fire everybody.

[Jumbo]

Fire everybody.

 

 

Only if you'll step up and take the reins. Forget about your family. You're needed where it counts! 

[Koolblue13]

Only if you'll step up and take the reins. Forget about your family. You're needed where it counts! 

That's it? 3 simple sentences? Right to the point? Someone hack your account?  :

 

All these lengthy posts (I'll never read, especially since it's delved into posting about how or what another poster said, instead of the topic at hand) have so many words, they should be in Bubbas library.