Jay Gruden and the new Philosophy - and all things coaching...hell it is offseason after all.

[chipwhich]

I think the low quality of head coaches we've gotten has vastly lowered the expectations some have around here. Harbaugh almost assuredly wouldn't have won a super bowl here, true, but I think you'd have to be naive to think he'd have that 4-12 circus either.

 

You don't get it, Harbaugh would NEVER have come here because it most assuredly would have been a 4-12 circus.

Hopefully Scot changes that.

[Laron Burgundy]

You don't get it, Harbaugh would NEVER have come here because it most assuredly would have been a 4-12 circus.

Hopefully Scot changes that.

You can have a poor season without it being a circus, Gibbs had two. Yes, we're a large market, but you don't see the same kind of ridiculousness in tampa or tennessee.

You're right that it isn't the cushiest head coaching job, but it still is one and if teams like the Jaguars, browns and titans can get quality head coaches then so should we. I'm hoping having Scot is a big boon for attracting the next guy too.

[chipwhich]

You can have a poor season without it being a circus, Gibbs had two. Yes, we're a large market, but you don't see the same kind of ridiculousness in tampa or tennessee.

 

Perhaps you missed the part where we were a circus prior to Gruden being hired.  As I posted earlier, IMO, John Gruden opened up the kimono and said I am not going out like this.  The circus wasn't all Shanny's fault.  The circus existed prior to Shanny.  This place used to be like the local traveling circus, but turned into Barnum and Bailey.  Gruden did the only thing he could do to stop the media, player, and not to be named insider from selling him down the river like every other coach before him, less maybe Gibbs II.

 

Gruden didn't realize when he took the job that it was as the Ring Leader, he thought he was taking a head coaching position.

Props to him for immediately saying WTF, opening the kimono and saying not it.

 

If it weren't for Gruden, we wouldn't be blessed with a GM.  On this sunday, unlike any in years, I will say AMEN. 

[TSO]

You can have a poor season without it being a circus, Gibbs had two. Yes, we're a large market, but you don't see the same kind of ridiculousness in tampa or tennessee.

You're right that it isn't the cushiest head coaching job, but it still is one and if teams like the Jaguars, browns and titans can get quality head coaches then so should we. I'm hoping having Scot is a big boon for attracting the next guy too.

 

This is total hindsight and simply untrue. Gibbs in 2006 was considered a total failure and "clown show" was probably one of the nicer terms used around here to describe what went on.

 

You weren't here, but I vividly remember a very vocal and large contingent of posters here constantly trashing every Gibbs presser ("super smart" and "fought their guts out" were not used endearingly like they are now), going off on his "Christian attachment to Brunell" (I kid you not), blasting him for putting Brandon Lloyd in the doghouse, constantly referring to the offensive play-calling as backwards and ridiculously conservative (run, run, pass), he was "over the hill" and "should've never returned", his pandering to Portis was bashed and Betts became an underdog favorite, etc...

 

People absolutely HATED Gibbs for not criticizing poor performances publicly. They HATED it. 

 

They were nonstop, just as bad, if not worse, as the anti-Gruden crowd became this year. It's all relative. Like I said, while we're experiencing something, we think we know everything and will label it in certain ways. Then, once removed from the emotion of the time, we look at it in a completely different light.  

 

I think the whole issue about Gruden criticizing his players is completely overblown. You take every presser, add up the amount of times he's praised a guy versus criticized him, and you're going to get a ratio like 10:1 in favor of praise. It's WHO he criticized that has turned this into a huge issue, that's all. Don't care how much anyone denies it. It's clear as day. 

 

He's not the first, nor the last, coach who will publicly blast a player. It's rarer these days, for sure, I'll give you that. But that's not necessarily a good thing. I think egos need to be stroked way too much and it's sickening.

 

Gruden is a different guy than Gibbs. He curses. He's not going to shy from confrontation. He's going to tell you how he feels. This comparison between them is a silly one. Jay's "style" was totally known when we hired him and pretty much everyone was excited about the "honesty" and "openness" that he was going to bring. Welp, we got what we asked for, lol.

 

It's a cliche for a reason, but it's all about winning or losing. Gibbs "style" was condemned loudly when he was losing. Arguably, more so than Gruden's right now. Gruden's "style" was a "breath of fresh air" before he started losing. It's all just fans taking the small amount of data accessible to us and over-valuing it when we extrapolate it to fit our perceptions.

 

Gruden is going to win if he becomes a better game-manager, strategist, overall team-manager, has a better roster to utilize, etc... the LAST thing that'll matter is whether or not he changes his public persona and his willingness to criticize someone openly, lol. Gibbs didn't win or lose because of his friggin pressers or interviews. We went on that run in 2005 because Portis was in his prime, the Oline was playing great, Moss was on fire, Brunell was playing well, Williams started getting more aggressive on defense and we generated a pass rush.

 

Gibbs got the most out of that roster. It had little to do with his pressers. It had more to do with what he had to work with than anything else. We saw him struggle when the personnel didn't mesh as well. If the players are that sensitive to where it affects their ability to succeed because their coach publicly criticized them... how the heck are they going to be able to handle the pressure of consistently winning in an incredibly competitive league?   

[Skinsinparadise]

I really struggle to take anyone seriously who says the dysfunction at the top is a variable, but then puts the majority of the blame on Jay.

 

 

You really can't make this stuff up......

 

Good point, I wouldn't take that person seriously either.  Now if it only applied to the post you were responding to, it would be a nice zinger.      Find me the quote where I put the majority of blame on Jay.   Even in this very same thread, if you want to look for it its in a response to Mad Mike where I do pin the dysfunction primarily on the FO.   What you are responding to is a post where I specifically evaluated Jay Gruden, not the whole organization.    And no I didn't blame Jay for the team's dysfunction, in that same post I said I gave him a B (that's really really harsh  , I guess he deserved an A?) because I factored in what he dealt with.   So yeah the context was factored.    I just don't wrap up my whole evaluation of Jay in the FO, I can look at plenty of things that Jay does and says that have nothing to do with the FO. 

 

I get the whole point that a few have which is how can we evaluate Jay when the FO stinks.  How do we know if Jay is good or not good?   I agree with half of the point which is and I stated this before and that is a first year coach deserves a chance to learn from experience and I agree you have to factor the FO.  Having said that, we watch Jay over and over and over and over.  We hear what people say about him over and over and over.  We read about him over and over.   We've heard about him in Cincy.  The dude isn't 21.   And yeah when you are hit with hundreds of stimuli from and about the same person, I think its fair to form an opinion as to what you've seen so far.   Not saying that our opinion would be on the money but its fair to form an opinion period, IMO. 

 

Most people indeed do have an opinion on Jay whether on the board, pundits, media, etc.   If the point is how can you judge Jay on chapter 1.  I couldn't disagree more, IMO of course you can judge chapter 1 and we are all smart enough to factor context.  if the point is how can you judge him exclusively on chapter 1 and we need to wait for the rest of the movie before coming in with the verdict, yeah sure, I agree, but that's a different point. 

 

I get that some want us to say:  "Look Jay showed promise last year.  The poor dude was saddled was so much and did his best with it.   And even if you saw something you don't like, let it go or at least see it as neutral considering Jay has a built in excuse and that is the FO."  OK, Cool.  Its a nice sentiment.  It's warm and fuzzy and it sounds cool and reasonable.  I just don't share it.    

 

I trust my eyes and ears and there are things I saw from Jay, I don't like.  There is little I saw that i hate but I definitely saw things which I've expressed already in other posts that give me cause for concern.  No one is right or wrong at the moment, we got to see the movie play out and am genuinely big time rooting for you-Sub, etc to be right. 

 

The people here who aren't wild about Jay so far in his tenure don't have some odd agenda or some bizarre personal ax to grind.   We are all rooting for him and the team.  We just see some things that we didn't like and are concerned about the future of the team.  It would actually be MUCH more fun for us to blissfully ignore it.  And if you or whomever like what you see from Jay or see any criticism as completely unfair, cool, and more power to you, I envy you.  I used to buy in big time to each head coach as they came.   I remember that feeling and it did feel good. 

 

I'd love to have that feeling coming into the season.  Having said that, if I truly was that confident in Jay or think at worse Jay is a completely blank slate, I wouldn't be at all bothered by people who feel otherwise.   

[Jumbo]

No way in hell that happens. Gruden may not be back next year but he's not gonna be "relieved of his duties" mid-season, and especially not early in the season.

 

You've been here long enough to know not to impede great thinkers with your stuff. 

 

One of us needs to learn that lesson. 

 

I'm going to be busy adjusting my tendency to overestimate some posters and being too nice.

 

I need to talk to zoony. 

[88Comrade2000]

No way in hell that happens. Gruden may not be back next year but he's not gonna be "relieved of his duties" mid-season, and especially not early in the season.

Our Early schedule screams anywhere from 3-4 to 5-2.

If Gruden has the Skins at 2-5 or worse; you could very well see a midseason coaching change.

 

I don't think Scott would be the one making that decision; should there be an in-season firing.

[chipwhich]

 

The people here who aren't wild about Jay so far in his tenure don't have some odd agenda or some bizarre personal ax to grind.   We are all rooting for him and the team.  We just see some things that we didn't like and are concerned about the future of the team.  It would actually be MUCH more fun for us to blissfully ignore it.  And if you or whomever like what you see from Jay or see any criticism as completely unfair, cool, and more power to you, I envy you.  I used to buy in big time to each head coach as they came.   I remember that feeling and it did feel good. 

 

I am that odd lot in that I really don't care who the coach is at this point.  The problem with the fans is they want a one year fix every year.  I want a 3 year plan.  There is no way to know if Gruden is a good coach or not.  What I wanted in my 3 year plan included step 1, hire a real GM.  I got that.  Step 2 involves drafting our own.  Name one team in the league with more free agent starters than the Redskins had last year.  It's unbelievable.  You don't build "Play like a Raven" or "The Patriot Way" buy having a roster of old free agents drafted by other teams.  We began step 2, cut old players and replace with our own.  Perhaps when this year is over we can evaluate the need for a coach.  Step 3 we can evaluate the need for a coaching change.  For me, I am still at step 2.

[Burgold]

Submitted,

Your memory is faulty. There were two camps. One was stupidly anti-Gibbs. The other one earnestly defended him.

He was still St.Joe and well beloved by a huge number of fans. He also left on his own w absolutely no murmurs about firing him.

[TSO]

Submitted,

Your memory is faulty. There were two camps. One was stupidly anti-Gibbs. The other one earnestly defended him.

He was still St.Joe and well beloved by a huge number of fans. He also left on his own w absolutely no murmurs about firing him.

 

I don't think I stated otherwise, Burg. I called them a "contingent" for that very reason. Don't think my memory is at all faulty, I remember my unabashed optimism constantly being put to the test and frustrated everyday by them, lol. 

 

And there were definitely calls to fire him during 2006. Of course no one was calling to fire him when he left, he had just made the playoffs. I have no idea what you're arguing here.  

[Burgold]

Ah, misread then. Thought you were saying skins nation turned and gave up on Joe. There definitely were some who did, but they were the loud minority I think.

[TSO]

Ah, misread then. Thought you were saying skins nation turned and gave up on Joe. There definitely were some who did, but they were the loud minority I think.

I agree with that. I do think they were a "large contingent", but only on ES. And they definitely wouldn't shut up, lol.

[MumboSauce]

I hope he succeeds, that means the organization I love does(that he learns and grows as a head coach etc)...but I don't (as things stand) believe in the guy personally. The way he publically debased his starting QB is amateur time and you just don't do that, I don't care if it was Kirk or Colt he did that to and not Robert, it was clownish and lame...Coupled with the fact he was pass happy in Cinci and he's pass happy now. I'm not sure how much that changes.

 

This is a strong opinion for sure, but that's where I stand. Obviously balance is what you strive for but ultimately it's what works and gets a championship... whether that's a strong defense, running the ball, throwing the ball an unbalanced amount of times, etc. just get it done. There is always a new guard/mold...it was Seattle, Tough D(big, physical, tall, rangy), great RB, great decision maker @ QB, but New England has had their success too, great coach and pocket QB and the rest buying into a philosophy to the utmost(and perhaps some cheating lol ).

 

 I'm not sure what Gruden is as a HC yet, based on last season and his stint as an OC in Cincinnati. I hope for the best, as the QB position is iffy at this point. I really like the GM based on his past success and sticking to his philosophy in the draft. I personally love the idea of smash mouth, big , physical, nasty win in the trenches on offense and defense football..but also recognize football today and the passing game. HTTR Washington football team always. In the end this is about TEAM and the football club and the city, neighboring areas and those globally that support...with that said I hope whatever happens to make this organization successful again happens and happens sooner than later. I'm here for the ride. 

[Fred Jones]

Appears another difficult thread.

 

Can we somehow, someway find a franchise QB?

Did our talent level improve this year?

Will our talent level improve next year in addition to this year?

Will our talent level improve in two years in addition to hopefully improving this year and next year?

Bonus - will we become a quality talent acquisition franchise from now on with GMSM running the show?

 

Answer yes to all four questions and JG is our coach for the future.  Answer no to them and JG will not be our coach of the future.  Everything else will fall into place either way.

[Skinsinparadise]

You love to quote that tweet from Keim every chance you get, lol, but you never mention that almost every single hire, or even player acquisition, has Keim saying the same thing. And not just with our team.

I'm sure the same can be said about every beat reporter reporting about every team, as well. Not many hires are universally lauded like the McCloughan one.

Gruden developed a Bengals offense moving on from Palmer and Ochocinco, with next to nothing but young players, a rookie QB, rookie WR, etc... To proceed to do nothing but improve until they were a top five Offense (I think they were top five, somewhere there, whatever). That garners you respect in the NFL, and he had it.

 

 

We are going a bit off track.  Again I said Jay was a "good" not "bad" coordinator.  I simply said he wasn't considered by most an elite guy. But what the heck i'll play along with your point because if its about playing with stats lets go with the real deal versus cherry picking mini stats and instead use the aggregate numbers that most people judge you on.  Jay inherited the 20th ranked offense in 2010.  In 2011 when he took over, drum roll...they also ranked 20th.  in his three seasons the average ranking of the Cincy offense was 17.  This year after he left it was ranked 15th.  Dalton has emerged as a good QB, not a great one.  A lot of what Jay was about in Cincy was good.  But great?  Elite? One of the top 5 coordinators in the league?   Not according to most.  That was my point. It wasn't about "meh"

 

I think there are really two points am stuck on with debate with you on this topic.  1.  The media-around the league perception of the hire.  You trust your memory on this.  I trust mine.  Oldfan and I used to get into epic debates on some subjects and even he admitted that am the biggest media hound he's seen on the board when it came to this team and he meant as a complement.  I am just a huge media junkie, I work from home, got the radio on all day and I read everything in breaking news, redskins.com, got just about every NFL subscription possible.   I am an odd duck in that I'll even play back stuff I've already heard on the archives when am out on the weekend -- watching my kids play in their sports league.  

 

I am not saying this from the stand point for you to care or trust my take, I am just explaining why I am unfazed by you remembering the perception about Jay differently.  I am not an X and O's expert but I trust myself when it comes to recalling media coverage.  If you trust yourself the same way, cool.  And, I'll leave this specific point alone after one more post which am working on right now with some links that back up my main points on the subject.

 

The 2nd point plays off the first point and that is this:  I think its totally cool for you or anyone else to have a positive or neutral view of Jay.   Mad Mike made a complementary point about Jay and I thought it was well said and I complemented him on it.  My disagreement with your point of view here is some of the language you use to depict the other side of the argument including mine with words like its "crazy" among other words.  Personally, I think its not even remotely crazy to have a current slant on Jay even if its a negative one. 

[Burgold]

I see this is the thread of the very long posts.

I approve.

[TSO]

The people here who aren't wild about Jay so far in his tenure don't have some odd agenda or some bizarre personal ax to grind. We are all rooting for him and the team. We just see some things that we didn't like and are concerned about the future of the team. It would actually be MUCH more fun for us to blissfully ignore it. And if you or whomever like what you see from Jay or see any criticism as completely unfair, cool, and more power to you, I envy you. I used to buy in big time to each head coach as they came. I remember that feeling and it did feel good.

I'd love to have that feeling coming into the season. Having said that, if I truly was that confident in Jay or think at worse Jay is a completely blank slate, I wouldn't be at all bothered by people who feel otherwise.

Honestly, the only one seeing unicorns and rainbows here about anything is you with your claim about people having no agenda or axe to grind.

I mean, come on, this is ES, lol.

Ignoring how naive that statement is in the first place (and ignoring some clear condescension in your post... Or shall I say, blissfully ignore? ), I think it's painfully obvious just how correlated the opinions are with those who hold a particular view of Robert and how it overwhelmingly influences their thoughts on Jay.

To claim otherwise is to be completely out of touch with, at the very least, this board.

And I don't think it bothers anyone that others have negative views toward Gruden. That's ridiculous. I think what is bothersome is the way it's presented, the aforementioned correlation, and the way the judgments are made with finality.

If it only was that they just aren't "wild about Gruden", lol. Come on. Ever since the benching, there has been a (once again) large contingent who are obsessed with controlling the narrative and making sure absolutely nothing Gruden does (or even has done in the past) can be construed as a positive in any manner.

You're completely divorcing yourself from reality if you think there is this "pro-Gruden" camp who just hates that anyone views him negatively and would rather everyone just give him a blank slate, don't even think about criticizing him they beseech!

There are hundreds of posts with various levels of criticism levied at Gruden. Those posts often go without a response. There are few that are just totally positive about Gruden. Yet, those few are met EVERY TIME with responses from the same group of posters, making sure the travesty of spreading anything positive about that sick man is met with swift justice, lol.

Now, I hope we can just move on from this once and for all. The discussion was going to some good places and it's annoying to constantly have to bat down these misrepresentations and reiterate what went on here in the past.

It's over and done with. Let's talk about what we actually do know without omission or magnification, and where we think we are heading.

[Skinsinparadise]

For Sub and I can easily add 10 more articles to this.  And again my point was it was considered a B hire not an A one for the most part. More liked it but some didn't.   There were more critics of this hire from what i recall for example of bringing Shanny here.  And yeah of course there are critics of every hire.  But outside of Zorn, from what I've observed this wasn't as sexy of a name as prior hires.  Keim said the reaction he got was mixed, your response was he always says mixed.  I don't think so.  In fact in one of Keim's articles posted here he specifically says the fact that he got mixed reviews is unusual compared to the past.

 

For Jay again some really liked it.  Some did think he was indeed a sexy name.  Some didn't.  Some thought he was "meh".  Some didn't like him at all.  I recall it being all over the map.  But one thing I saw very little of is this dude is one of the top strategists of the game or that he was the great innovative minds and among the best of the best.   I just recall the vibe was he's a good-competent WCO guy who did a nice job with Dalton.  There wasn't really a Chip Kelly kind of buzz that this dude will rock our world as a game planner.

 

If you recall it differently, cool.  But I just wanted to show that am not pulling my opinion out of thin air.   And I had no predisposition to not liking Jay.  I was cool with the hire at the time and just processed what I heard.  and if you processed it differently, ok, lets agree to disagree, 

 

 

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/4701/jay-gruden-offers-hope-and-concern

 

This is not nearly the best hire the Washington Redskins could have made. That's what the skeptics say: There’s nothing special about him; his last name paved the way. Look what he did with Andy Dalton in the playoffs, they say.

“I like him, but his offense wasn’t more creative than any other coordinator out there,” one NFL defensive coach said. “If his last name wasn’t Gruden, we wouldn’t be talking about him.”

When it comes to the Redskins’ new coach, there’s a split opinion, and it makes this one of the more unusual hires they have made. 

 

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2014/01/30/the-redskins-could-have-done-better-than-jay-gruden/

 

“I think when [the Redskins] first hired [Jay Gruden], I think they thought they were getting Jon, and that was my initial knee jerk reaction to it,” NFL Networkanalyst Brian Baldinger told LaVar Arrington and Chad Dukes. “I don’t want to say Jay can’t do it, but I think Washington could have done better.”

“That last game in Cincinnati was not a good day for Jay Gruden. We’re talking about a guy that hasn’t been able to win a playoff game and you gotta coach differently in the playoffs. And in Washington, nothing short of playoff wins is gonna be suitable.”

Dalton did have a bad game in the Bengals’ 27-10 home playoff loss to the Chargers. He completed 29 of 51 passing attempts for 334 yards and a touchdown with two interceptions, yielding a 67.0 passer rating.

“Let’s just not forget they asked Andy Dalton to throw it 53 times, on a bad weather day, in a close game,” Baldinger said. “I don’t understand any of it to be honest with you. “

 

 

Cover-Two: Grading the coaching hires

 

http://www.si.com/nfl/audibles/2014/01/09/grading-coaching-hires-2014

 

Chris Burke: D+.

Jay Gruden probably will receive more of the blame than he should for the issues Cincinnati had on offense -- Andy Dalton's play at times, like in the playoffs against San Diego, hamstrung him some. Still, this does not feel like a groundbreaking move for the Washington franchise....

Gruden's background working with quarterbacks obviously carries to the nation's capital the hope that he can get Robert Griffin III back to being the dynamic player he was in 2012, as opposed to the banged-up, hesitant QB Washington dealt with this season. But Gruden's preference for a pass-first scheme may contrast with the best of Griffin's abilities at the NFL level.

True to form for this franchise, owner Daniel Snyder may have gone for name over substance here. Nothing really jumps off the page about Gruden's past work, particularly coming off the inglorious playoff exit

 

http://nypost.com/2014/01/10/gruden-hire-shows-why-redskins-doomed-with-snyder/ Jay Gruden hire shows why Redskins doomed with Snyder

By Bart Hubbuch

January 10, 2014 | 2:05pm

 

 

Jay Gruden has interviewed in the past and had interviews lined up this offeseason, but no one thought any team would hire him as a head coach until Snyder came along this week, and it’s easy to see why.

Not only did Gruden prefer Andy Dalton to Colin Kaepernick in the 2011 NFL Draft, but the Bengals, four days before Gruden was hired, suffered yet another playoff failure rooted in offensive ineptitude.

Dalton threw two interceptions and Cincinnati turned the ball over four times in a 27-10 home loss to the underdog Chargers, which was totally in keeping with Gruden’s coaching performance in the postseason. In three playoff games with Gruden as offensive coordinator, Cincinnati managed two touchdowns — total — while averaging 8.7 points per game.

This is the guy who’s going to turn Robert Griffin III’s career around?

 

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2014/1/7/5283860/why-jay-gruden-is-is-not-qualified-to-be-a-head-coach

Why he's not qualified as a head coach. When your offensive coordinator is being blamed for the lack of growth with your franchise quarterback, don't take it as simple fan frustration. There are questionable calls. There are times that Gruden over-thinks simplistic situations -- such as passing on third and one when BenJarvus Green-Ellis has converted several similar situations against the San Diego Chargers in the past.

Head coaches require patience and growth of a team, especially if you're hired onto a team looking for new direction. Those questions are relevant in Gruden's case, based on Cincinnati's need to develop a better offense during bigger games.

He could become a good head coach; who can predict such things. But many hold reservations, based on what was seen in three years as the offensive coordinator.

On its own, Gruden’s résumé isn’t exactly overwhelming. In his three years as coordinator, the Bengals’ offense finished 17th in DVOA each year. It’s actually hard to maintain that type of mediocrity. Back in 2011, as a first-year play caller with a rookie quarterback and a very young offense, a middle-of-the-pack finish was probably expected. This year, few offenses had more talent than Cincinnati, and no team had a better offensive line.

 

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/4-thoughts-on-washingtons-hiring-of-jay-gruden/

The lack of improvement is troubling. And although it’s hard to separate Gruden’s performance from his quarterback’s, Andy Dalton was allowed to sling it around pretty frequently this season — often, in the eyes of Gruden’s critics, at the expense of a very capable running game. The Chargers were reportedly not impressed with Gruden’s game plan last week, and I don’t think they’re alone.

[TSO]

Oh noez I just saw your last post on this SIP.


I'm going to keep it short in an attempt to save everyone from another one of our wordy back and forths.

No, I don't trust your ability to fairly assess whatever media you do go through. I don't particularly care how much of it you do or don't go through. What I do know is that I've often found you highlight what fits your agenda and ignore everything else. You've improved on this, but that's the truth. I fully expect the post you're "working on" to reflect that. I hope I'm wrong.

You've often said something about radio commentary and when I've went back myself to listen to it, I've often found that you were disingenuous with your take on it. There would end up being a lot more grey area than you'd make it seem.

Now, maybe that's not your intent, maybe it is. But that's what I've witnessed and I'm far from alone on this.

I know what I'm saying is going to come off as standoff-ish, but I really do like you as a poster and I'm pleased with the way you've improved on these issues.

And, no, I never said it was "crazy" to have a negative view on Jay. I have my own negative views as stated in this thread, so I'd be calling myself that if I did. What's crazy are the final judgments handed out. You're not doing that now, but you have in the past.

 

<EDIT> And there it is, right after I posted this. Just as I expected. You just have to go back a few pages to see the other side, SIP, where Jumbo posted some coaches talking of Jay. I know there's much more, but I'm on the phone right now. Maybe I'll do the research later.

The argument was never whether it was mixed or not. The argument was so what? He did some things you could consider "special", easily. You first made it out like you just couldn't and that the mixed reviews were indicative of his lack of elite ability. That's just grossly over-stating things to me. But hey, you're a media hound. It might be good to recognize the inherent issues with that and not state it as exclusively a positive.

[Burgold]

I can see people who grade Gruden a poor grade or an incomplete, but an A or a glowing report? He was 4-12 with a team that he rallied at the end, but largely quit on him and the city.

I'm probably in one of the aforementioned camps, but the best grade I could offer him is an INC bc of factors out of his control.

I'd be far more likely though to give him a D on his handling of season one. That doesn't mean he can't turn it around. He better, but overall.... Blech!

[LD0506]

 Let's talk about what we actually do know without omission or magnification, and where we think we are heading.

 

Now that would be a genuinely new approach, but what are the chances?

[TSO]

I can see people who grade Gruden a poor grade or an incomplete, but an A or a glowing report? He was 4-12 with a team that he rallied at the end, but largely quit on him and the city.

I'm probably in one of the aforementioned camps, but the best grade I could offer him is an INC bc of factors out of his control.

Has anyone done that?

[Skinsinparadise]

Ignoring how naive that statement is in the first place (and ignoring some clear condescension in your post... Or shall I say, blissfully ignore? ), I think it's painfully obvious just how correlated the opinions are with those who hold a particular view of Robert and how it overwhelmingly influences their thoughts on Jay.

 

 

I made my last post before reading this.  But just to wrap this on my end no condescension intended in fact I felt that condescension was directed my way so am trying (failing obviously) to bring down the tone and its not per se directed from your posts -- its like I said Jay is clearly a polarizing argument and IMO its not cut and dry.

 

As for RG3, its far from my prime issue with Jay.  I didn't really bring him much into this debate on this thread.   Anyway, I am done after making this point.

 

Cheers!

 

Edit:  LOL:  alright one last thing since I see you posted since.  I got no agenda.  I gather for me its all about RG3, too?   My position on RG3 is pretty simple, I think the dude deserves another chance this year.  I think he could have been used better last year, that's it.  I got no clue, I've taken no position as to whether he thrives this coming year or not, its a big year for him, we will see.  My position is just as strong on Cousins and how Jay handled him than I do on RG3.  But I've posted many thoughts on Jay that have zero to do with the QB position.  

 

And I said I generally found the coverage on Jay as mostly positive but with more criticism than we typically get for our hires, not sure how finding those positive articles refute that point.   But anyway I'll leave it there even if you do respond. 

[bedlamVR]

I have had time to consider my opinion on Gruden and the things that niggle still niggle .

There is a lot of mileage in the thought the rest of the FO is/was not constructed in a way for anyone to succeed here . Dan is too willing to throw money at problems and Allen is a facilitator. That needs a very specific kind of personality to succeed with because it offers the head coach tremendous opportunity to do what he wants without limits .... But the flip side to that is the coach needs to realize that with that power comes responsibilities and expectations and fairly soon they can find themselves exposed .

But this is nothing new . Snyder for all his faults is consistant . You take his money you need to understand what man he is .

Now for me a great head coach needs to know how to handle players, and coaches, how to communicate and how to organize . The actual X's and O's are probably less important if he surrounds himself with smart people who challenge him but are loyal . The head coach also has to have a strong attention to detail .

Jay in my opinion based on what he has done so far fails in all those elements .

PLAYER HANDLING...

Take how he handled the starting qb this season . Now some of the people who back Jay, do it because they simply do not like who the starting qb is. But Jay came into this season with a blank slate with his starting QB < an important point I will come back too...

Personally I do not like the tool of publicly humiliating your own players . Bill Parcells did it but he did it in a purposeful and directed way . He also feuded with his WRs mostly . If he or any reasonable HC had an issue with their qb then they handle it by benching them . That relationship between the HC and QB is too important and too toxic to **** around with and has repucusions throughout the team . It also creates it's own media storm that becomes a distraction that given what I just said about the blank slate was unecessary .

The other issue I had with the way Jay handled the starting qb issues he had this season is this ;. Given all three qbs struggled should they all not have been exposed to the same critique ? If you are inconsistant with praise or critisim then the message you give to the players and the team is muddled . It says to the players it makes no difference if I do xy and z I might get blasted in the media by the HC regardless... Not a position you want to be ...

ORGANIZATION ..

. If you go back to this time last year at a point at which we as a team were introducing significant changes over the old regime we had a rookie HC overseeing a rookie OC we were one of a handful of teams without a QB coach (but we had an inside and outside LB coaches) then as an outsider could see issues with that .

Jay also did himself no favours with the rest of his coaching selection . He could have moved on from shanahan coaches but chose not to. Consistency is a good thing if you are breaking up a winning combination . There is no way an impartial observer would call the defensive coaches Washington had a winning team ,

ATTENTION TO DETAIL

going back to training camp last season one thing that sticks out to me is the reports we kept getting about RGIii extending plays long after the point a sack would have been recorded . RGIii was he said trying to run broken play practice . Jay was not happy . But it kept happening an Jay did not impose his will on the team at such an earl y stage and this hurt him an the team going forward .

Everyone deserves a second chance and I am not routing for Jay to fail but he has to correct a lot of mistakes of his own to correct

[Taylor703]

OTOH, put Gibbs in a Vinny GMed team and see him take two of those to the playoffs and even win a game. Something that Norv, Schotty, Spurrier, and Zorn all failed to do. Even Shanny with what was left averaged 4 wins a year managing only one winning season when RGIII arrived as Superman.

I've said it before and I still stand by it, Joe Gibbs is the greatest head coach of all time.