Jay Gruden and the new Philosophy - and all things coaching...hell it is offseason after all.

[Skinsinparadise]

Yes, but my point was that you simply can't extrapolate the data from Gruden's time with the Bengals and assume that's all he is or all he'll ever be.

I get why you think my points weren't addressing yours for a large part, but they were made to emphasize that, overall, we don't really know what Gruden is about.

And I apologize if I came off too strong, not my intention, but re-reading my post it does a bit.

With the Bengals and here, it can be argued that the passing game was a strength just simply due to the WR corps. To argue otherwise is to assume the Oline, with Lauvao inserted, was equal to our past Oline in terms of zone-blocking and it ignores Desean's affect.

In the end, all we heard last offseason was how flexible Gruden is and how willing he is to tailor his offense based on player's strengths. We know he kept coaches here for the specific reason of keeping the ZBS, something not many new coaches do, instead opting to bring in "their guys" for "their scheme" immediately. We know Robert all offseason last year kept talking about how Gruden is giving him a lot of authority and the players will be in charge of what they want to be.

 

 

Thanks. All is cool.     And to address some of those points, yes I do think the O line which is 4 out of 5 the same lineup and if anything they got rid of the weak link of 2013 Montgomery and at least in theory upgraded over him with Lauvao -- is just as capable or close enough than the 2 years previously.   I get your point about D Jax but I disagree that its that big of a game changer.

 

My main disagreement really centers on what does it mean to characterize Jay as more of a pass guy.  When we hired him that was what was said about him by some in Cincy.  There were articles written about it especially after the Cincy playoff games.   And the theory put out there is heck the dude was a QB, of course he prefers to throw.    As for in Cincy, Dalton is a decent QB but not elite, Green is a great WR.  But that team is built to run too. They had a good O line and very good RB.  And a good defense to win with a ball control style of game.  

 

Having said that, there are plenty of offensive coordinators who prefer to throw the ball, in fact there exists more of them than what we'd call more of the old school types who like to run more or close to a 50-50 ratio. Your point is partly we can't define his style and maybe there was context to Jay's play calling that we aren't factoring and if anything looking at his rosters you see why he'd favor the pass.  I just differ on that point, I see the context favoring the run or a balance.   But my key point here is this, if anything more offensive coordinators these days do like to open their offense and throw -- Sean Payton style versus the ball control, D. Bevell style.  Either style can clearly work in the NFL. Lumping Jay into that category isn't a black eye, he would have the company of plenty of good O coordinators.

 

As for Jay individually.   You talked in a post specifically what you like and not mostly in the context of his personality.  And your take on him is fair.  Ditto, we are all doing the same.   People's strengths are often their weaknesses too -- and with Jay for me what I like is he comes off with a sense of urgency that I didn't see in prior regimes.  I got tired of Shanny's 5 year plan talk and Zorn for my taste was too chill--too medium.  

 

The flip side of that coin is Jay seems impatient and more seat of the pants to me than lets say Shanny or Gibbs or even Zorn.     So its not that I wonder whether Jay has the intellect to adopt to a new scheme or whether he's adaptable -- its that I wonder whether Jay could patiently try out a different scheme and stick with it if at first it doesn't succeed.  And am not saying I have the answer yes or no.  

[Koolblue13]

I think most people should continue to spell it bafoon.

[Jumbo]

<edit>

The flip side of that coin is Jay seems impatient and more seat of the pants to me than lets say Shanny or Gibbs or even Zorn.     So its not that I wonder whether Jay has the intellect to adopt to a new scheme or whether he's adaptable -- its that I wonder whether Jay could patiently try out a different scheme and stick with it if at first it doesn't succeed.  And am not saying I have the answer yes or no.  

 

 

Now maybe you're being nicer than I am.

 

I think the single best line in all your words on Jay (it was maybe a couple months ago---and i'm paraphrasing from memory) was that you were concerned that Jay was a "B" level student in a field where an "A" level was needed.

 

Now if you meant "among the level of nfl coaches in general over the modern era" I'd argue that's it too early given his history to make that call with much validity, but if you meant (as I took it) that "for the kind of Big Success we Redskins fan want" (multiple division titles/SBs lol), I'd agree---at this point he sure doesn't make me think of the greats or near-greats. Nor would I have had that expectation (hope, sure) right off.

 

I DO question (I even mean it respectfully enough---it's just pragmatic to me) if he has the level of intellect--not just to be flexible to new schemes or adapt---but to be a top-tier HC for years in general.

 

I think over the years such HCs have usually had a level of cognitive acuity beyond the average of even their own well-sorted group. Player performance (talent) always is huge in determining outcomes, but if we try to isolate actual coaching ability, I'd say there have been many "smart real-football guy" HCs (inc. ex-players) with good enough leadership skills that did/will do well in the NFL, but most HCs in the modern era that have consistent play-off appearances, multiple division titles, and plural SBs over the course of years, tend to be pretty "brainy" (to use a clinical term  ) as well.

 

And then there's Bill Cowher, so maybe that's just false memory feeding an unfounded belief on my end. 

 

Many of us understandably want the Redskins return to long-past glory via the super-star franchise QB find or getting the next Walsh or Belichick. Perfectly normal.

 

I'm ready to settle.

 

No more "make this next one the guy who can make us a multi-title-for-years <SB!!!> winner!!!" nonsense for me. Let's just actually make a several-year run where we are consistently improving overall first, say for three consecutive seasons (just to set a record). 

 

Right now, I'd be happy if we have/get a guy good enough, that with even just league-average talent, maybe only a couple "stars", and reasonable FO support, could still make us a truly competitive team that actually wins more than half the time for three seasons out of the next five, and a franchise where seasons of 10-plus wins were more a norm than an anomaly. If Jay turns out to be even that level of coach, that would be a huge step forward if we're being real about what we've actually accomplished the last 15 years. If it all goes even better than that, awesome. 

 

2016 first. And I think we can sufficiently (if not necessarily accurately, depending)  judge Jay in this year (same with Robert/others per "contributing factors") independent of him not getting to pick his own QB or other issues on the team.

[Laron Burgundy]

Now maybe you're being nicer than I am.

 

I think the single best line in all your words on Jay (it was maybe a couple months ago---and i'm paraphrasing from memory) was that you were concerned that Jay was a "B" level student in a field where an "A" level was needed.

 

Now if you meant "among the level of nfl coaches in general over the modern era" I'd argue that's it too early given his history to make that call with much validity, but if you meant (as I took it) that "for the kind of Big Success we Redskins fan want" (multiple division titles/SBs lol), I'd agree---at this point he sure doesn't make me think of the greats or near-greats. Nor would I have had that expectation (hope, sure) right off.

 

I DO question (I even mean it respectfully enough---it's just pragmatic to me) if he has the level of intellect--not just to be flexible to new schemes or adapt---but to be a top-tier HC for years in general.

 

I think over the years such HCs have usually had a level of cognitive acuity beyond the average of even their own well-sorted group. Player performance (talent) always is huge in determining outcomes, but if we try to isolate actual coaching ability, I'd say there have been many "smart real-football guy" HCs (inc. ex-players) with good enough leadership skills that did/will do well in the NFL, but most HCs in the modern era that have consistent play-off appearances, multiple division titles, and plural SBs over the course of years, tend to be pretty "brainy" (to use a clinical term  ) as well.

 

I saw this as well.  It really takes a combination of factors of course.  Mangenius was a moniker that, in a way, poked at Mangini's intelligence but lack of charisma.  Watching Jay I don't get the sense that he's the smartest guy in the room.  You see Pete Carroll and Belichick, two guys who are total opposite ends of the spectrum in their dispositions, and yet you get that sense of intelligence from both of them.  I guess Madden succeeded though.

[Burgold]

I don't know... I always sensed some real "smarts" beneath the every man bluster with Madden. I think his "Boom!" was part of a carefully calculated act designed to appeal to his audience. I mean there is a reason that he was the number one color analyst for more than a decade. We remember him now best in his decline (sort of like Sonny) but when he was on top of his game he really could break down and interpret the "whys" behind every play pretty well.

 

There was a really good football mind behind the caricature.

[Jumbo]

Yup. We're tracking along the same lines, Laron.

 

I'll add this, as someone who administers and interprets state of the art cognitive capability ("IQ") and developmental ("personality") behavioral assessments ("profiles"), looks can be deceiving. Like I said this morning in another thread, I'd take some Ditka etc level of "competence" or whatever gets us to some consistent and increasing improvement  over "waiting for Godot" and unrealistic demands/expectations. Plus, I thought Mike (flaws noted) was very intelligent (he is) and a notch above average for a HC, and was a long time vet, and that went south badly. Such a seeming crap shoot at times, even for the real experts.

[Burgold]

Yup. We're tracking along the same lines, Laron.

 

I'll add this, as someone who administers and interprets state of the art cognitive capability ("IQ") and developmental ("personality") behavioral assessments ("profiles"), looks can be deceiving. Like I said this morning in another thread, I'd take some Ditka etc level of "competence" or whatever gets us to some consistent and increasing improvement  over "waiting for Godot" and unrealistic demands/expectations. Plus, I thought Mike (flaws noted) was very intelligent (he is) and a notch above average for a HC, and was a long time vet, and that went south badly. Such a seeming crap shoot at times, even for the real experts.

I think that's because intelligence in and of itself is not enough.  You need to combine it with drive/passion/fire, luck, a proper support system, and a number of other factors.

 

Mike was intelligent enough, but his support system, primarily on defense and special teams was lacking. More generally, his support system meaning overall talent was not top notch (though I still contend it was better than our record).  Shanny himself though seemed to lack the drive and passion he once had. I don't think that was intentional, but the fact that this task master's team continued to be so undisciplined and commit so many stupid penalties game after game speaks to a difference between Redskins Mike and Broncos Mike.

 

I think he forgot what it took to or just didn't have enough left in the tank to really build something up from scratch. He wanted all the power, but didn't want to have to dig the foundation... or maybe he did want to do that and realized it needed to be done, but the difference between understanding it and actually rolling up the sleeves to do the heavy lifting was something beyond him. That was probably why he kept quitting the team. His patience for hard work and struggle just wasn't there.

 

I always got the sense that Mike knew exactly what needed to be done, but just didn't want to really do it. I could be wrong. 

[Laron Burgundy]

I like where this discussion is going right now... much more insightful and a lot less (hate to say this, but oh well) agenda-driven. 

 

I wanted to talk about my main concern/s with Gruden because I feel like I'm so often annoyed by the nature of the criticisms he receives here that I end up defending him by default the majority of the time I talk about him. It really is weird how that happened, lol. 

 

Before I get into those concerns, first, a few things... 

 

I'm honestly unsure about how good or bad Gruden is as a play-caller or strategist. I don't think anyone can be anywhere near confident in their ability to assess that right now. All I know is, with decent personnel acquisitions while coaching for the Bengals, he improved his side of the ball consistently and significantly. And in lesser leagues, he's done nothing but rise to the top in whatever he's done. Other than those facts, I won't get into this side of things much more right now. 

 

But as a public figure for the organization and what we saw from him last year, at least openly, I think I might be the only one who actually liked how Gruden handled the losing, lol. Far too often in the past I'd get the sense that our coach was just dejected and, I don't know... uhm, distant. And that may have just been their way of handling things publicly; not necessarily how they felt inside or what they showed to the team behind closed doors. Unfortunately, that's all we see to base our opinions on.  

 

But I found that Gruden's utter disgust and clear annoyance with the losing was a refreshing change. At no point did I feel like he wasn't affected by the losing to the very depths of his soul, lol. I might be an ahole for this, but I was pleased by his misery. The way it seemed like he was "losing it" meant something to me. 

 

I don't think the players responded well to his disdain though, which is the more important thing.  Belichick doesn't show a lot of emotion in losses, but you know his team doesn't like losing.  I think a lot of the players just saw it as Jay throwing a fit.  It's one thing if Bill Cowher is chewing you out after a loss and another thing if a player's coach like Jay tries it.

 

We got worse as the season progressed, which shows me, if anything, the players became more and more disillusioned by Jay's coaching style and decision-making.  I hope I'm wrong and it was strictly a talent issue, but we ended last year looking like easily a bottom 3 team in the league, if not the worst team.

 

Purely number stuff, but point differential for final 8 weeks:

 

Bucs: -38

Jaguars: -63

Redskins: -108

Raiders: -117

Titans: -119

 

Comparitively in the first half it was:

 

Redskins: -29

Titans: -65

Raiders: -82

Bucs: -95

Jaguars: -100

 

Differential being:

 

Bucs: +57

Jaguars: +37

Raiders: -35

Titans: -54

Redskins: -79

 

We became a MUCH worse team in the 2nd half of the year.  It's not a good sign for a coach when your team collapses like that.

I don't know... I always sensed some real "smarts" beneath the every man bluster with Madden. I think his "Boom!" was part of a carefully calculated act designed to appeal to his audience. I mean there is a reason that he was the number one color analyst for more than a decade. We remember him now best in his decline (sort of like Sonny) but when he was on top of his game he really could break down and interpret the "whys" behind every play pretty well.

 

There was a really good football mind behind the caricature.

 

I can see that.  Kinda like Rex Ryan, who can appear like a real idiot at times, but he's very savvy at interacting with people.  I oftentimes wonder how much of his success has to do with x's and o's and how much of it is that he just gets his players riled up to hit people.

[Laron Burgundy]

Yup. We're tracking along the same lines, Laron.

 

I'll add this, as someone who administers and interprets state of the art cognitive capability ("IQ") and developmental ("personality") behavioral assessments ("profiles"), looks can be deceiving. Like I said this morning in another thread, I'd take some Ditka etc level of "competence" or whatever gets us to some consistent and increasing improvement  over "waiting for Godot" and unrealistic demands/expectations. Plus, I thought Mike (flaws noted) was very intelligent (he is) and a notch above average for a HC, and was a long time vet, and that went south badly. Such a seeming crap shoot at times, even for the real experts.

 

Yeah, I didn't want to utter his name, but Shanahan definitely is a smart guy.  I really wonder what 2014 would have looked like with him at the helm, but good lord was 2013 a disaster off the field.  I sometimes suspect it was actually Haslett releasing all that stuff in some Usual Suspects kind of plot twist where he gets to sign a contract extension in the end.

[Jumbo]

Laron, I'm open to your scenario as described as a very reasonable possibility. Of course, it all depends on who (in the org) is reading how much into exactly what regarding who (in the org) during that time. 

 

Even the people who are pros and were there through it all first hand have very different takes on these matters. IMO we'd all do well as posters to reflect on that fact.

 

Now there's little doubt in my mind that Jay would have been fired, contract or not, if the reading on that was the same as some (many) fans.

 

I think there were few in the org that should be spared significant culpability.

 

Hence we are all here again this year, concerns across the board still real, with no single sacrificial scapegoat being properly vetted enough to serve that purpose. And hopefully, with almost everyone's future on the table.

[TSO]

I don't think the players responded well to his disdain though, which is the more important thing.  Belichick doesn't show a lot of emotion in losses, but you know his team doesn't like losing.  I think a lot of the players just saw it as Jay throwing a fit.  It's one thing if Bill Cowher is chewing you out after a loss and another thing if a player's coach like Jay tries it.

 

We got worse as the season progressed, which shows me, if anything, the players became more and more disillusioned by Jay's coaching style and decision-making.  I hope I'm wrong and it was strictly a talent issue, but we ended last year looking like easily a bottom 3 team in the league, if not the worst team.

 

Purely number stuff, but point differential for final 8 weeks:

 

<EDITED FOR LENGTH>

 

Yeah, I think it's a fine line and maybe he pushed it, but you're also ignoring the times it seemed like his annoyance was working.

 

For instance, people forget just how frustrated the team was getting with Robert when he came back after the ankle injury. The benching was necessary at that point and I think it actually saved the locker room from imploding at that point. It's a wild thought, but it may have even saved Robert's career. Certainly not far from the realm of possibility knowing how frustrated people were being openly on twitter and on the field with him, and then seeing the way he came back a better QB and now going into next season as the starter.  

 

You're omitting what was recently mentioned about Gruden fanning the flames during half time against the Cowboys that first game (where the WRs wanted to kill McCoy). They came out and played a much better second half. You're omitting the way he rallied, at least the offense, to play towards the end of the year and show some signs of life, even getting a win against the Eagles.

 

So I'd disagree that the team just didn't respond to him at all. I think they did... just took some time. 

 

There was a bad lull for sure where it looked like everyone was lost during the middle of the season, and that's on him. But I think there definitely were some signs of life and good motivation coming from his side towards the end. The defense just gave up, though. And while it's his fault since he's the HC, Haslett was really given free reign on that side so it's hard to kill him for it.        

[Laron Burgundy]

Yeah, I think it's a fine line and maybe he pushed it, but you're also ignoring the times it seemed like his annoyance was working. For instance, people forget just how frustrated the team was getting with Robert when he came back after the ankle injury. The benching was necessary at that point. You're omitting what was just mentioned about Gruden fanning the flames during half time against the Cowboys. You're omitting the way he rallied, at least the offense, to play towards the end of the year and show some signs of life, even getting a win against the Eagles.

 

So I'd disagree that the team just didn't respond to him at all. I think they did... just took some time. 

 

There was a bad lull for sure where it looked like everyone was lost during the middle of the season, and that's on him. But I think there definitely were some signs of life and good motivation coming from his side towards the end. The defense just gave up, though. And while it's his fault since he's the HC, Haslett was really given free reign on that side so it's hard to kill him for it.        

 

We had that eagles win, but got crushed by the cowboys a week later as well as getting shut out by the rams 2 weeks before that.  We didn't play well at all at the end of the year.

 

I thought the qb situation was ridiculous.  RG3 plays against tough defenses, has a poor game, and then Colt gets served up a powderpuff game, and then everyone here gets psyched about how Colt played.  Colts would have been a good game to try to psych Griffin back up instead of benching him and causing more needless drama.

[Skinsinparadise]

Now maybe you're being nicer than I am.

 

I think the single best line in all your words on Jay (it was maybe a couple months ago---and i'm paraphrasing from memory) was that you were concerned that Jay was a "B" level student in a field where an "A" level was needed.

 

Now if you meant "among the level of nfl coaches in general over the modern era" I'd argue that's it too early given his history to make that call with much validity, but if you meant (as I took it) that "for the kind of Big Success we Redskins fan want" (multiple division titles/SBs lol), I'd agree---at this point he sure doesn't make me think of the greats or near-greats. Nor would I have had that expectation (hope, sure) right off.

 

I DO question (I even mean it respectfully enough---it's just pragmatic to me) if he has the level of intellect--not just to be flexible to new schemes or adapt---but to be a top-tier HC for years in general.

 

 

 

 

Good post.  These Jay debates can become polarized so I'll start with this.   My wife is a Giants fan along with her side of the family and I have two young kids who are into football so am fighting for their football souls so to speak and so far am winning    but its tough to pull off when we lose year after year.  Nothing would please me more if Jay won and Jay won fast.  And if we lose, like all of us, I hate it, it doesn't matter to me one whit if it went down based on reasons I pointed out in advance as to my concerns about Jay.  I get no joy from taking any shots at Jay. 

 

With Shanny I was initially one of his biggest supporters, he is a competent guy and arguably one of the games offensive geniuses.  In his heyday, he was known to be Gibbs like in having a relentless drive and work ethic -- if he just stuck to offense IMO Shanny is A level.   I went south on Shanny towards the end of his tenure when I saw the two critiques that followed him here come to life:  insofar that he believes his expertise extends to running defense and playing GM but has failed on both counts repeatedly.   Ironically, if you give me Shanny with Scot I might be able to get into that combination.  

 

With Jay, I don't think he's a dummy, really no one is who is a head coach.   But he arguably hasn't shown to be anything special.   He was considered a good offensive coordinator in Cincy not a great one and had his share of critics.  He doesn't have the rep about being an innovator like Chip Kelly or heck even Kyle.   Keim summed up the hire at the time as mixed, some scouts he knew liked it, some didn't, few hated it, few loved it.

 

As to the B level stuff.  It was pegged as a B level hire by some per my paragraph above and I've not seen anything to refute that.  I've elaborated on specifics in other threads so won't do that here but for me there are four main things I look at for head coaches.  1. Do they have that burning desire to be the best, not just the want but obsessive drive.  2.  Are they inventive where you feel they are going to likely outscheme the opposition.  3.  Are they leaders, great at handling people.   4.  Are they secure enough to work with great assistant coaches around them.   For me this was driven with growing up with Gibbs who met all these criteria with flying colors.

 

When Gibbs was here the first time, we'd outscheme and outwork the opposition on all sides of the ball.  When Gibbs came back, with Gregg Williams at least I felt at times we'd outscheme the opposition on that side of the ball and Gibbs' leadership skills could help will the team to greater heights.   When Shanny was here at least I felt that on one side of the ball (offense) we'd likely outsmart and outscheme the opponents.  With Jay and his coaching staff so far, I don't have that feeling on any side of the ball.  Maybe now with Callahan on board that may change. 

 

I used Jim Fassel as a comparison in another thread.  So far he reminds me of him.  Fassel was a football guy through and through,  He knows his stuff. He's no dummy.  He came off as a decent strategist but not great.  He came off as a decent leader-motivator but not great.  He seemed to work hard but no one said from what I recall that he's likely going to outwork anybody.  If its a Fassel led team -- you are not expecting earth shattering game plans but nothing poor either.   The thing is IMO a third of the league or so have elite level coaches who will outwork and outscheme Fassel.  And I feel the same way about Jay.

 

To use NFL draft language IMO Jay doesn't strike me to have a high ceiling.  His floor isn't bad, though.  My take is if you are hiring a young and upcoming guy, I'd love to strike gold with a guy you think really potentially could be a great one, like our own version of a young -- J. Harbaugh, S. Payton, C. Kelly, M. Tomlin, etc.  And I do admit the fact that he's Bruce Allen's handpicked guy doesn't earn any trust in me.  If it was Scot who picked him I'd suck up my doubts much easier.  

[TSO]

We had that eagles win, but got crushed by the cowboys a week later as well as getting shut out by the rams 2 weeks before that. We didn't play well at all at the end of the year.

I thought the qb situation was ridiculous. RG3 plays against tough defenses, has a poor game, and then Colt gets served up a powderpuff game, and then everyone here gets psyched about how Colt played. Colts would have been a good game to try to psych Griffin back up instead of benching him and causing more needless drama.

Completely disagree. I think there were some signs of life, at least offensively, the last few games. I think you're way too willing to downplay the Colts game to fit your perception of things, but I know I can't refute perceptions, so I won't argue.

[Jumbo]

Yup, a nice summary of very reasonable positions, SIP. 

 

 

 

Too much of that is considered boring by many folks in this turf. 

 

 

 

I might haggle a bit on a take here and there, but then I'm impossible. 

[Stefanskins]

I think that's because intelligence in and of itself is not enough.  You need to combine it with drive/passion/fire, luck, a proper support system, and a number of other factors.

 

Mike was intelligent enough

I'd have to say drive/passion/fire means the most...and I believe Mike's down fall is he truly believes his own bs

[Stefanskins]

I like where this discussion is going right now... much more insightful and a lot less (hate to say this, but oh well) agenda-driven. 

nice..nothing to add...but you enunciated a lot of my feelings that I couldn't articulate.

[Stefanskins]

I don't know... I always sensed some real "smarts" beneath the every man bluster with Madden. I think his "Boom!" was part of a carefully calculated act designed to appeal to his audience. I mean there is a reason that he was the number one color analyst for more than a decade. We remember him now best in his decline (sort of like Sonny) but when he was on top of his game he really could break down and interpret the "whys" behind every play pretty well.

 

There was a really good football mind behind the caricature.

Oh yeah.. Maddens the man..HoF Coach with the best winning % of coaches who coached 100 games (?)...in an era dominated by the AFC (Pittsburgh)...with a crazy cast of talented outsiders (The Snake, Biletnikoff, Casper, Art Shell, Gene Upshaw, Otto, Willie Brown, Ray Guy, Cliff Branch and a 50 year old Blanda)... he then molded these men into a championship team with such a strong camaraderie...he gave us some of the most amazing iconic games of all time (Heidi Game, Holy Roller and of course the Immaculate Reception)...I would argue, in all sincerity, that he meant more to the Raiders Aura than even Al Davis..

 

Then he retires..takes up being a football commentator and rewrites what it means to be a broadcaster..he became the very epitome of what you want from your color commentator..won 13 Emmys.."In 1994, he signed a four-year, $32 million deal with Fox (a richer contract than any NFL player at the time)"..and becomes a legend..there will never be another John madden...Thanksgivings..did an awful lot of Redskin games...always seemed fair to us..

 

Oh yeah, he also rewrote console football games...before his game almost all were played like old atari or tecmo bowls...left to right or right to left...I remember playing it in 1990 on my Sega Genesis..."This game featured many customizable aspects including weather conditions (hot, rain, snow, or cold and windy), time of quarters (8, 10, 12 or 15 minutes), player fatigue, player injuries, and penalties. No actual NFL teams are included due to the lack of NFL or NFLPA licenses for authentic teams, player names, and stadiums. However, some of the teams are based on real teams."  Who remembers "the humorous ambulance that picks up injured players in 1991's John Madden"?... and well..he was the first person ever on a Madden Cover...so least he's got that going for him...which is nice

 

/the highest praise I can give him is that if we hadn't had Gibbs...I woulda loved him as ours

[chipwhich]

But he arguably hasn't shown to be anything special.

 

I hate to sound like a broken record, but this team is a hot mess.  Even when Gibbs II was here.  Gibbs sold his soul to the devil and spent like a drunken sailor to deliver 2 garbage seasons, and 2 seasons that fans fawn over, but the Gibbs II playoff teams weren't that good.

I don't know how you judge a coach in a dysfunctional franchise.

 

One day, hopefully it was this draft, I dream that my team builds itself through the draft, year after year, and we stop overvaluing every one player but value a team, without drama.  Bill Bellicheck, Harbaugh, Peyton, Tomlin couldn't have won here in the past 20 years......HOT MESS.

 

Thank god we have a GM.

[TSO]

Yeah, to add onto chipwich's point here, I'm trying to figure out exactly who showed themselves to be "special" here. At least for any significant duration.

We certainly had small spurts of it here and there, Shotty showing signs of a team coming together his first year, Gibbs twice, Shanahan in 2012... But who else?

I mean, even the assistant coaches here who have been great everywhere else struggle. Let's go with the Gibbs era for fun since we had, what most would say, was an All-Star cast of coaches.

Gregg Williams had the best run at D Coordinator, but 2006 was some of the worst defensive football in Skins history at the time. And outside of 2004, he also struggled with consistency. We absolutely stank at pass rushing and couldn't generate turnovers for most of his tenure.

Al Saunders? Yikes. Guy does nothing but have top five offense's for like, his entire life, comes here and is just the worst. His name can't be brought up without a snickering "600 page playbook nyuck nyuck nyuck" to follow.

I just think statements like "he (Gruden) hasn't shown anything to be special" are crazy from Skins fans, lol. Who the heck has here? I mean, really?

To me, it's such an outrageously preposterous narrative to hold onto, and so likely fictional, that it almost deserves a fairy tale spin on it.

These guys all just happen to be crappy coaches, but their relative crappiness was hidden to all observers and they manage to trick everyone with a false mask of success...

Until, of course, they come here.

Then we show the world who they really are, don't we? Their stupidity is only overshadowed by their evil, lol.

[Laron Burgundy]

Completely disagree. I think there were some signs of life, at least offensively, the last few games. I think you're way too willing to downplay the Colts game to fit your perception of things, but I know I can't refute perceptions, so I won't argue.

 

We averaged 14.25 points the last month of the season and 45 ypg from Morris, which was the lowest totals of any quarter of the season.  I'm not sure how our offense looked improved, it was a hot mess until the very end.

 

And we saw how McCoy looks against a good d when we faced the rams and he got shut out, I have zero doubt that had he faced the 49ers, without Trent Williams mind you, he would have put up the same awful show RG3 did.  Likewise had rg3 played against the Colts I'm sure he puts up a stat line similar to Colt.  The qb change was COMPLETELY superficial.  A scapegoat for the rest of the offense/coaching staff.  That's why I dislike it.

[War Paint]

I thought the qb situation was ridiculous.  RG3 plays against tough defenses, has a poor game, and then Colt gets served up a powderpuff game, and then everyone here gets psyched about how Colt played.  Colts would have been a good game to try to psych Griffin back up instead of benching him and causing more needless drama.

This is why I was kind of bummed when we resigned Colt.  I was hoping that Griffin and Cousins would battle it out and let the best man win, while having some late round QB as the 3rd string guy.  I'm afraid Colt provides a "panic button" for Gruden that he'll press way too early due to being job scared if things start off rocky.  I hope that's not the case.  We have a couple of tough defenses to play against right out of the gate and I'll be furious if Gruden starts playing musical chairs with the QBs again.

[War Paint]

I certainly hope it helps, but I'm sure a lot of it was the haphazard way this team has been ran for 20 years.  Gruden was possibly one of the worst coaching candidates for our team.  I said it before he was hired and still stand by that.  We're a mismatch of parts that was better at running, specifically with zone blocking, than we were with passing.  What did we do?  We hired a guy who preferred man blocking and airing the ball out and got a top notch deep threat.  The result?  An offense that regressed in practically every meaningful stat.

 

It's not all on gruden, but he was definitely the wrong hire for this team.  I think we already have the talent on the roster to be a 9-10 win team, but probably not without our coach changing his philosophy.  We've heard big talk about the offense being tailored to RG3's strengths (don't we hear this every year?), but it's something I'll have to see on sundays before I believe it.

Well, there are going to be growing pains when you change the direction of a team.  We could've hired someone like Kubiak and stuck with the Shanahan scheme, but I like the new direction this team is moving towards, with a more physical, smash mouth philosophy.   

[War Paint]

I liken what Jay did with his openness to him not going down with the same ship every other coach went down on while here.  Especially Shanny and RG3.  Jay opened up the kimono each week and said, hey look what's in here, not much you want to see.  As a result, we finally got what we wanted.  Jay may or may not end up being a good coach, but he wasn't going to be a scapegoat for the drama, poor talent, locker room separation, etc that I don't think he realized he was walking into.

 

I can't believe I am saying this, but I actually think we may have a good team this year.  I am always most skeptical.

Usually, almost every year, my homerism creeps up right before the season starts.  I usually tell my friends "I think we could possibly go 10-6 this season", but in the back of my mind that inner voice always says, "Who are you kidding?  You know they'll suck".   Then the season unfolds and......they suck lol.   This year I'm telling everyone "we'll go 6-10", but now that inner voice is telling me, "you'll be pleasantly surprised". 

 

I made a 6-10 prediction.  I hope I'm wrong.

[Jumbo]

I hate to sound like a broken record<edit>

 

 

Dude..a broken record? You're not even in the running, tailgate boy.  

 

We've had passionate (I'm using bur's word) posters repeating themselves to such a level (even for this kind of venue) that after months of such an unusual level of it, the OCD thread was finally created as a corral.  

 

And even after months of it's existence there was no real abatement in the "need to go again with the same stuff x 1000" for more than a few, with it also still spilling over to other threads regularly. So you got a long way to go before you're competing with the likes of we vets of the RG3OCD thread in "repetition." You're still outside sweeping the courtyard in front of the temple.