Jay Gruden and the new Philosophy - and all things coaching...hell it is offseason after all.

[Jumbo]

That's it? 3 simple sentences? Right to the point? Someone hack your account?   :

 

All these lengthy posts (I'll never read, especially since it's delved into posting about how or what another poster said, instead of the topic at hand) have so many words, they should be in Bubbas library.

 

 

We do live in the ADHD me me me multi-tasking self-centered world of the time where length of text for some is automatically "a burden." 

 

Forgive me for the following  , and this isn't regarding you. 

 

 

 

For me it should be about quality of content as much as anything.

 

I write tons of brief posts---in posts others make, only the long ones get attached to me as a "style."

 

I also write a ton of humorous posts (usually brief, also).

 

What people choose to focus on is often about their self more than the "other."

 

Most interesting to me, is how voluntary it all is to just ignore (or not) a long post when one sees it. But then to need to comment on it just per its length (forget its worth) as though even "using the effort to ignore" was such a burden that it requires redress, well...

[Jumbo]

"Jay Picks Fight with RG3--Baby a Potential Mistake" or "RG3 Personally Insults Head Coach"

 

Pick one.   

 

http://was.247sports.com/Bolt/Washington-Redskins-Jay-Grudens-advice-to-RGIII-as-a-father-37477307

 

 

Washington Redskins quarterback Robert Griffin III and his wife Rebecca welcomed their first child into the world last week, a healthy baby girl.

 

On Tuesday, head coach Jay Gruden offered his advice to Griffin, the proud new father.

 

And he did it in typical Gruden, hilarious dead-pan fashion.

“Yeah, sleep in the other room [laughter],” said Gruden. “He’s got to make sure he gets his rest when he can because I’m not going to let him use a baby crying as an excuse for him to fall asleep in a meeting. But, no, he’s excited, man.”

 

Gruden wasn’t done yet.

 

“We’re happy for him and his wife, Rebecca. He’s a very proud papa. I didn’t get a cigar though yet – I’m a little disappointed. But we’re happy for him.”

 

Come on, RGIII, get the man a cigar!

 

[LD0506]

In spite of some of the snark and Jumbo's psychotherapy, this thread delivers. Some of us have railed at the mods for years that they weren't harsh enough, that demanding better instead of just suggesting it would raise the level of discourse. The last year or so an awful lot of underbrushy driveby BS has been thinned out and voila! we actually have intelligent conversation again.

 

Kudos to all involved

 

Personally I'll take all the long posts anyone cares to post, A: It shows more commitment than just an "LOL" spraypainted on the wall, and B: forcing yourself to write it all out tends to clarify thought, and that is never a bad thing.

[Jumbo]

From Hap's laser eye in the zoony thread:

 

Keim

 

Jay Gruden says Redskins much improved at safety

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/17702

 

 

Let’s be clear: The Redskins must prove during the season that safety has improved. It’s been an issue for too long to simply ditch feelings of doubt so suddenly, especially when they have unproven candidates at strong safety and a free safety in Dashon Goldson who might or might not be done.

 

But it’s also clear the Redskins feel much better about this spot than last season when they had a near-retirement Ryan Clark at free andBrandon Meriweather at strong.

Goldson will be the starting free safety -- the coaches like what he adds in terms of experience. Though he did not play well in Tampa Bay, he’s only 30 (turning 31 in September) so their hope is that he has more good play left.

 

Duke Ihenacho worked with the starters at strong safety the first week of the organized team activities, ahead of the newly signed Johnson. Ihenacho started 14 games for Denver in 2013, but was one of the Broncos’ final cuts before the 2014 season. His coverage skills were knocked, but he’s still a young player with experience. But Ihenacho played in just three games before suffering a season-ending foot fracture.

 

Johnson has started one game, playing behind elite safeties Earl Thomas andKam Chancellor.

 

The Redskins also say their depth is better with Trenton Robinson, Phillip Thomas and Akeem Davis. It will also help having consistent and disciplined play at cornerback with Chris Culliver, who did not put safeties in bad spots with his play.

 

And the pass rush, if it improves, would help. Again: Time will tell. But for now the Redskins like what they have.

 

 

 

"We have a very good group of safeties right now. We went from kind of a struggling point for us the last couple of years, I guess, to I think it’s a strong point now," Redskins coach Jay Gruden said. "Our safety spot looks a lot brighter now than it did 11 months ago."

 

 

 

 

A positive view, but also not saying all that much given how dim it really seemed. "Decent" might even pass for "a lot brighter" to me.

[Aireskoi]

Just catching up with this thread, so I'm a little late with this.  I know Elway isn't the HC, but rather he was appointed GM last season while he was already VP of Football Operations, and a retired HOF QB for the team with 2 Superbowl Rings.

 

From 2011 talking about one of his QB's that had a little too much media love at the time.

 

 

John Elway famously told Peter King of Sports Illustrated last January, “I don’t think Tim Tebow is a good NFL quarterback at this time.” Afterward, Elway backtracked the statement and clarified, "Tim Tebow is a darn good football player. What we have to make him is a darn good quarterback."

It was another slight dig at Tebow, almost suggesting he should switch positions. In February, coach Fox vowed that Orton was the starter without ever holding one practice.

Prior to the draft, Elway told NFL.com he may choose a quarterback. "Obviously if there's a guy there that's a franchise guy there, we definitely have to look at it because we're not sure we have a franchise guy on our team right now," Elway said. "So, obviously we've got to visit that, look at it, and do our due diligence on it, and then we'll make our decision from there."

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/888256-why-does-broncos-team-executive-john-elway-hate-tim-tebow

[Laron Burgundy]

This is just a really unfortunate post in so many ways. Can't believe it, really. I tried real hard to make some valid points for you to at least acknowledge how a more balanced view on the topic could occur legitimately, yet you completely ignored all of that and just focused on what you wanted to.

Just read your sentence over again, here, man. It's amazing. You actually attempt to say my argument is something it wasn't, but you qualify it with what I qualified it with, and then proceed to ignore that qualification when attempting to refute it. Wha!?

But you know what? I'm going to play. I'm an idiot for doing so because I know you're going to downplay/omit/ignore at your leisure, but unlike you, I'm going to actually attempt to answer your questions and refute the points you're making.

So, with that, I'll allow you to have the last word you so clearly, desperately want to have on this matter. And I hope you'll feel satisfied enough with your victory to let it go so that this thread can generate the fruitful discussion again that it once had before all this silliness (hopefully, the Allen tangent already hurt it a little).

So let it all out, LB. I'm an idiot, I know.

 

Actually, the final point is all yours.  I think you've put a lot of emotion in to it and I'd rather not stray down that road.

 

I will say the quotes you used about coaches critiquing players to the media are, strangely enough, exactly how a coach should do it.  They aren't actually critiques.  It's what makes them different from what Gruden did.  One-liners that don't delve in to details.  Any form of leadership training tells you to praise in public, critique in private.  Doesn't matter what the job is, in fact, if anything, being in the limelight actually magnifies the need to follow that rule.

[chipwhich]

I find this funny as the Skins were already in discussions with SM about joining the team before the presser.  I watched the presser that day and what do you expect Allen to do, explain the teams private conversations or their actual plans before anything was finalized? 

 

The Skins had entered into a business agreement with SM and his recruiting service the previous year.  Everything else is just speculation.  Give me one press conference as confrontational and agree as that in the NFL about the lack of a real GM for the team.  Allen looked like he was caught off guard.

If they were in discussions with SM or ANY GM, he should have said....we are bringing in a GM in charge of player personal, we are looking.  What he did was vague.

But how did Gruden get us McC, which is what you said.  That's the part I just don't see the connection.

 

Because if we had another half assed positive season, the incompetent front office we had would have been content with where we were.  Amazing it took 15 years to bring in a GM and you are wondering how Gruden contributed to that

 

Epic Fail at some point even leads Snyder to water and he drinks.

[s0crates]

I will say the quotes you used about coaches critiquing players to the media are, strangely enough, exactly how a coach should do it. They aren't actually critiques. It's what makes them different from what Gruden did. One-liners that don't delve in to details. Any form of leadership training tells you to praise in public, critique in private. Doesn't matter what the job is, in fact, if anything, being in the limelight actually magnifies the need to follow that rule.

I think you're right about this. Frankly I have a hard time making sense of the counter argument (I tried, as I think the arguer is usually sensible).

Good leaders praise others and blame themselves. Inferior leaders do the opposite.

Gibbs is a superior leader (how anybody doubts this is a mystery to me).

Judging from early returns, Gruden is an inferior leader; at best I might say the jury is still out on him.

[chipwhich]

Good leaders praise others and blame themselves. Inferior leaders do the opposite.

 

 

What do good leaders do when they realize they have been put into a situation where they can't lead and exterior forces are working against them?

[The Wicked Wop]

 

The Skins had entered into a business agreement with SM and his recruiting service the previous year.  Everything else is just speculation.  Give me one press conference as confrontational and agree as that in the NFL about the lack of a real GM for the team.  Allen looked like he was caught off guard.

If they were in discussions with SM or ANY GM, he should have said....we are bringing in a GM in charge of player personal, we are looking.  What he did was vague.

 

Because if we had another half assed positive season, the incompetent front office we had would have been content with where we were.  Amazing it took 15 years to bring in a GM and you are wondering how Gruden contributed to that

 

Epic Fail at some point even leads Snyder to water and he drinks.

 

 

Come on dude, speculation?  The Skins by all accounts were already in the process of considering A.J. Smith as GM well before Allen's presser on 12/31. The fact that it was SM instead of A.J. doesn't change the fact that the Skins were considering an important FO change. Of course its great to announce this before it happens, as it makes so much sense to announce all your plans or considerations to the public and other teams first to add competition to anyone you're possibly going after. 

 

I'll never say it was a great Presser form Allen, but a number of reporters went there only to pick a fight not just for this but lack of access, excuse me screw them! All Allen did was promise change and improvement were coming just give him a little bit of time. I think we can agree the time from Allen's 12/31/14 presser and the 1/7/15 hiring of SM is a little bit of time and improved the team. Since then we've just continued to improve the team.

 

This article was on 12/23 and Sonny was discussing the possibilities 2 weeks prior.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/wp/2014/12/23/sonny-jurgensen-says-the-redskins-will-consider-promoting-a-j-smith-to-general-manager/

 

 

What are the odds the Redskins move to reduce Bruce Allen’s role and look for a real [personnel] guy, whether it be A.J. Smith or someone from the outside? Seems like Snyder has to know that something has to change here.Bruce Allen won’t receive a demotion. He’ll remain team president. But I do believe that A.J. Smith will take on a larger role this offseason.  We've seen him at Redskins Park on a daily basis during this second half of the season. During the early portions of practice when players are goin through positional drills, he goes from station to station, watching with a critical eye. This is a change from last season when he would stand on the sideline with Snyder and Allen, and you only saw him a couple times a month.

It of course would be great to find out more about this, but the weekly requests to speak with Allen continue to be denied. A request to speak to Smith also was denied. Allen is supposed to speak to reporters once the season concludes. No word on if that’s a day or a week or month after the season ends, 

[chipwhich]

Come on dude, speculation?

 

Maybe you missed the last 15 years where speculation over coaches was wrong (Jim Fassell), leaks were wrong, Washington Reporters were wrong.  Heck AJ Smith ended up wrong.  You obviously missed the boat when not one person on this board can agree whether Shanny, RG3, or reporters were wrong about what was reported at WaPo.  I am not sure how you post a link in the post to defend your position when NOBODY knows anything or can agree with anything speculated in the media.

[TSO]

I think you're right about this. Frankly I have a hard time making sense of the counter argument (I tried, as I think the arguer is usually sensible).

Good leaders praise others and blame themselves. Inferior leaders do the opposite.

Gibbs is a superior leader (how anybody doubts this is a mystery to me).

Judging from early returns, Gruden is an inferior leader; at best I might say the jury is still out on him.

What was my counter argument?

And, hey, thanks for thinking I'm at least usually sensible. My wife would beg to differ.

And you're usually better at discerning opinions and accurately assessing them.

[s0crates]

What was my counter argument?

And, hey, thanks for thinking I'm at least usually sensible. My wife would beg to differ.

That's just it, I really couldn't make heads or tails of it.

A typical Gibbs comment after a loss would be something like, "I'll tell you what, these guys are playing their guts out, I'm really proud of the effort. I need to do a better job coaching them up."

A typical Gruden comment is more like, "Griffin needs to worry about himself, a lot of the sacks are on him."

I take it that is the kind of thing Laron is thinking, and I agree.

CP was once asked why he was so dedicated to Joe and he said it is because coach always gave the players all the credit and took all the blame, "How could you not play hard for a guy like that?"

I'm really not at all clear why you disagree.

I also find the disparagement of Gibbs a bit irksome. Although it was clearly a mistake to bring in Saunders instead of having faith in his system, his second tenure was still better than any four year stretch since Gibbs I.

[TSO]

I also have a couple questions for those who'd like to share their answers.

How many times has Gruden blamed himself publicly to your recollection?

Did his open critique of one player in particular, in which he then admitted was a mistake, nullify all of that in terms of his leadership skills?

Thanks in advance.

[TSO]

That's just it, I really couldn't make heads or tails of it.

A typical Gibbs comment after a loss would be something like, "I'll tell you what, these guys are playing their guts out, I need to do a better job coaching them up."

A typical Geuden comment is more like, "Griffin needs to worry about himself, a lot of the sacks are on him."

I take it that is what Laron is thinking. I'm

not at all clear why you disagree.

I don't how I could've been clearer. I'm sorry you feel that way but I'm honestly tired of explaining it at this point. Oh well.

And that's not really a typical Gruden response. That has been my main point. That the mistake he made is being overblown to the point where all of his praise, defending, vouching, etc... for players has been downplayed and outright ignored while he's being painted as some malicious criticizing ahole who will back stab his players.

I even asked for one example of another player he's done this with and it just gets ignored.

<EDIT> just saw the other points you added to your post after I quoted it.

Socrates, if you think I've disparaged Gibbs as a whole, then I really stand by my initial statement that you're usually better at accurately assessing opinions than this. Way better.

Looks like LB has effectively defined my position for me. Well done, lol.

[s0crates]

I also have a couple questions for those who'd like to share their answers.

How many times has Gruden blamed himself publicly to your recollection?

Did his open critique of one player in particular, in which he then admitted was a mistake, nullify all of that in terms of his leadership skills?

Thanks in advance.

My biggest problem with Gruden isn't his public criticism of his players (although I do agree with Laron on that point), it's his failure to play to his team's strengths. He tried to make a running team a passing team, and he tried to make a mobile QB a drop back passer. Rather than understanding his players and putting them in the best position to succeed, he tried to force them into his system.

Another thing that really bugs me is that he is supposed to be a QB guru, and all three of our QBs regressed last year.

And that's to say nothing of the sense I get that he is totally lost. His team was undisciplined and infighting. It just screams bad coaching IMO.

It's hard to find any positives in that honestly.

I hope I'm wrong. It was only one year, and the Dallas and Philly wins were encouraging. Time will tell.

[TSO]

^^ I can agree with that to some degree. I just wonder what team strengths were there, really? I'm pretty sure we hired a GM because everyone was wondering that, lol.

I don't think he tried to force any system on anyone, though. I just think our personnel was so incredibly mismatched it would've been tough for even the most brilliant of minds to put together the right scheme or strategy consistently.

That being said, he didn't do it. It would've been a true sign of brilliance had he done so, and as others have stated in this thread, that's a legitimate question to have about him.

Is he really a great coach in terms of scheme and strategic ability? So far it looks like no, but who knows.

But that's not what my questions were about. I'm thinking you joined this discussion and maybe only read the last few posts on it? Doesn't matter, really.

And one final thing... You used plural again, like LB, when discussing his public criticism of "players". That's quite irksome to me, lol. I guess we're both irking each other.

[s0crates]

Socrates, if you think I've disparaged Gibbs as a whole, then I really stand by my initial statement that you're usually better at accurately assessing opinions than this. Way better.

Looks like LB has effectively defined my position for me. Well done, lol.

I'm afraid I probably should have stayed out of this mess, but I feel I owe you the courtesy of being more specific in my comments about your post, specifically my accusation that you disparaged Gibbs.

Here's what I had in mind:

I'm sorry you don't, but I think the comparison is totally valid. It's not just about ES opinions... Gibbs won one more game in 2006, so you acting like it's "incomparable" in terms of embarrassment fails on that basis alone. I get it, though. It's Gibbs. He tugs on all of our heart strings.

But the fact is, you can argue that 2006 was an even bigger embarrassment because we were coming off a playoff year where we went 10-6. We just signed a bunch of FAs to huge contracts (Gibbs had final say as we all love to point out when it comes to Shanny). We brought in Saunders to "update" and upgrade our offense.

I think 2006 flopped because Gibbs made the mistake of bringing in Saunders instead of continuing with his offense. To say 2006 was a disappointment is fair.

However I don't think it is fair to Gibbs to compare his team to last season's Gruden circus. The 2006 team did not have a media bonanza because the coach threw his QB under the bus, and it did not have public infighting and "dry snitching."

Even when Gibbs' teams were bad they projected a united front. They were professional and respectable. They were bad sure, but not an embarrassment. I don't think you can say the same for Gruden.

And then we just completely stank. To the point where Gibbs used George Michael (local NBC reporter) to go off on the team publicly. Look it up.

I can't find anything about this, but my hunch is you misrepresent it somehow. It's just so out of character.

Gruden, in comparison, took a team that stank (3-13 the previous year) and actually improved their record by one game while losing his starting QB for a large chunk of the season. Of course, we still stank and I'm not making excuses. This is just to validate the comparison here a bit.

But I really don't care if you think it's an invalid comparison. You have your measuring stick for a "fiasco" and it clearly doesn't fit mine. Or most people's. 2006 was definitely a fiasco by most measuring sticks, as was last year.

.

The losing is what makes it that way more than anything else, and I don't think you remember 2006 as well if you think Gibbs had things under control better or something. It was known at the time that Gibbs attempted to take more of a backseat and allow others to really run things, where he was just a delegate and not much more. Gibbs admitted this himself.

Again it really isn't comparable. It's not just the losing, but the way we lost. There is a difference between disappointing and a fiasco. See my aforementioned comments on dry snitching and throwing Ronert under the bus. That doesn't happen on Gibbs' watch. No way. It really isn't fair to Gibbs to compare even his worst team to that circus.

Now I see you admit Gruden made a mistake in criticizing Robert that way, but my point is that Gibbs doesn't make that mistake. Comparing the two is like comparing Filet Mignon to Salisbury Steak. Merely making the comparison is disparaging IMO.

Other than that I'm not all that inclined to get involved in that mess between you and Laron. And I agree I should have said "player" in the singular.

It's mostly the Gruden to Gibbs comparison that rubs me wrong. You're comparing a Hall of Famer who has won championships in multiple sports to a doofus who will probably be out of a job at the end of the year.

[Laron Burgundy]

I don't how I could've been clearer. I'm sorry you feel that way but I'm honestly tired of explaining it at this point. Oh well.

And that's not really a typical Gruden response. That has been my main point. That the mistake he made is being overblown to the point where all of his praise, defending, vouching, etc... for players has been downplayed and outright ignored while he's being painted as some malicious criticizing ahole who will back stab his players.

I even asked for one example of another player he's done this with and it just gets ignored.

<EDIT> just saw the other points you added to your post after I quoted it.

Socrates, if you think I've disparaged Gibbs as a whole, then I really stand by my initial statement that you're usually better at accurately assessing opinions than this. Way better.

Looks like LB has effectively defined my position for me. Well done, lol.

For a guy who keeps handing over the last word, you do seem to love to keep responding.

Well you did say 2006 was as much of an embarrassment as last season. I don't think it was to most redskins fans. A disappointment to be sure, but not quite the embarrassment. Between blowouts and painful 4th down attempts, even not getting in to the off-field drama, 2014 was a pretty embarrassing season.

And to finally respond to your "point out more than one player he critiqued" line of logic, since you seem to keep pushing it. It doesn't matter. That's why I didn't respond to it, because it simply is not involved in this debate. The point being, leaders don't critique their subordinates in public. Or, if you prefer the singular, a leader does not critique his subordinate in public.

If anything, it is made all the worse to point out just one player when last season was a total team effort in losing.

[The Wicked Wop]

Again your failing to acknowledge or ignoring the only thing that matters. Bruce stated change and improvement in the short term would occur.....both of which happened unless you've mistaken this team for the 49ers.  As a FAN you may want him to lay out his plans on 12/31, but no owner, 2nd in command or common sense business owner is going to lay out their plans for the public and competition to get a jump on, before anything or one is signed, otherwise you look even more foolish on not delivering.  Further thinking Jason Reid and 1 or 2 others purported journalist acting like D's were the spark to make change its silly.

 

 

http://realredskins.com/2014/12/31/transcript-bruce-allen-news-conference-12-31-14/

 "I know Jay mentioned that he’s going to make some changes and there’s going to be some other changes."

 

I am not sure how you post a link in the post to defend your position when NOBODY knows anything or can agree with anything speculated in the media.

 

You can write this off all you want but I'm sure Sonny who's with the team and see's the team more then any of us is in a position where a noticeable change in AJ Smith's schedule along with his aspects in dealing with the team stand out.

 

Heck AJ Smith ended up wrong.  

 

Does finding a better option after the article is written make it wrong at the time or mean it wasn't the original plan. When SM's name came up, barely anyone here knew much or anything about him (Bruce did), then we all looked at where he'd been and did and then its a great hire. Regardless if you like Bruce or not he can be a skilled administrator and a nice compliment to SM's personality which could be great for his sobriety.

 

Finally, like most aspect of life you can either live in the past or the future and it's quite common for many teams to enter a purgatory period where they don't win or improve for long periods of time because of mismanagement.  If it took Dan 15+ years to learn this we can finally move forward and be nearing a period of sustained success and improvement. For me, who is just old enough to remember all 3 titles, looking at a bright future that is just at its infancy is a great thing. HTTR

[TSO]

LB, I was responding to s0crates. I allowed you the last word on this topic and honored that, but I can engage with others who want to chime in, especially when I feel they're misrepresenting my views.

Shame you had to throw that jab and then follow up with yet one more post about it directed right at me when you also said you wanted it to stop.

S0crates... I think it's total hindsight to not call Gibbs' 2006 campaign anything other than a circus. I've explained it clear enough, but people can't stand anything said about Gibbs.

And if you can't find anything on the George Michael episode, it'd be nice if you left your "hunch" out of it.

You calling Gruden a doofus who will be out of a job soon, whether that ends up true or not, is all I need to know to bow out of this now.

At Disney world with my fam today so you guys have at it. Will check back later tonight.

[Aireskoi]

What do good leaders do when they realize they have been put into a situation where they can't lead and exterior forces are working against them?

 

Side note, that pretty much sums up my career at this point.  I work for/with a partner/majority owner that lets me run our company any way I see fit.  I get 100% reign over the day to day operations.  The problem is that he has friends in high places within our company that completely suck at their jobs.  I can't replace them, it's like my only handcuff with this.  He is the most loyal man to his friends I've ever known, loyal to a fault. 

 

8 years of trying to help them, then I tried to remove them, then I again tried to help them, but they don't give a damn and they know the man with the money has their backs.  I have shifted all real responsibility away from them, buy they still get paid.

 

Sorry for any derailment, I have just never seen my situation so well laid out in one sentence before.

 

 

My thoughts on Gruden are that he learned a lesson and has changed his approach with the media, but I wonder if he regrets what he said, I don't think he does or should.  I think it opened a lot of eyes to the real situation, even if the truth was used as a wrecking ball it was still the truth.

 

Did Jay Gruden have anything to do with Scot taking the job?  I think Jon Gruden had something to do with it, Scot knows the family and should have had enough information to know that he could work with Jay.

[s0crates]

At Disney world with my fam today so you guys have at it. Will check back later tonight.

Fair enough. It really is more my loyalty to Gibbs than anything else.

I would appreciate some kind of link or reference on the Michaels thing though. All I can find is stuff about Snyder's media hijinx.

Anyway, go ride Splash Mountain for me. I loved that as a kid.

[chipwhich]

Finally, like most aspect of life you can either live in the past or the future and it's quite common for many teams to enter a purgatory period where they don't win or improve for long periods of time because of mismanagement.  If it took Dan 15+ years to learn this we can finally move forward and be nearing a period of sustained success and improvement. For me, who is just old enough to remember all 3 titles, looking at a bright future that is just at its infancy is a great thing. HTTR

 

You are sorta making my point.  You want to judge Gruden, you judge him THIS year.  Wouldn't it be nice to judge him on his merits leading a functional franchise and not one with he said she said at every corner?

 

I am excited about this season for the first time in a long time.  And I am old enough to have enjoyed our super bowl wins.

[LD0506]

I second chip's sentiment, dredging up a lot of past to keep a fire burning ain't accomplishing ****. Let's see, then we'll know. If Gruden can't take all that happened last year and learn n grow from it, then have at him. There was very little that went right and there is more than enough blame to go around, now let's see where it leads.