Jay Gruden and the new Philosophy - and all things coaching...hell it is offseason after all.

[88Comrade2000]

I'll say this. I believe until we are in the post-Gruden, post-Griffin era; this franchise will not progress.

[chipwhich]

There is a lot of mileage in the thought the rest of the FO is/was not constructed in a way for anyone to succeed here . Dan is too willing to throw money at problems and Allen is a facilitator. That needs a very specific kind of personality to succeed with because it offers the head coach tremendous opportunity to do what he wants without limits .... But the flip side to that is the coach needs to realize that with that power comes responsibilities and expectations and fairly soon they can find themselves exposed .

 

Not a Jay supporter or a Jay hater.

 

I just want to ask one of the haters a simple question.

 

What coach could come into this clown show and run the team appropriately?  Because Turner Couldn't.  Terri Robiskie Couldn't.  Schotty Couldn't.  Spurrier Couldn't.  Zorn Couldn't.  Gibbs II Couldn't.  Shanny Couldn't.

Now Gruden can't.

 

You see there is a pattern.

 

Jay may be a bust but the nonsense over expectations of running a clown show gets a little silly.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Our Early schedule screams anywhere from 3-4 to 5-2.

If Gruden has the Skins at 2-5 or worse; you could very well see a midseason coaching change.

 

I don't think Scott would be the one making that decision; should there be an in-season firing.

 

Our early schedule doesn't scream jack ****, to be honest.

 

The Redskins have gone 7-25 over the last 2 seasons. There isn't a single team in the NFL that anyone, anywhere should be telling themselves that we can/should/will beat. Hopefully Scot M has been talking with Allen and both of them are reminding Snyder not to think like a fan but instead think like an owner and not be surprised if the 7-25 Redskins still look like a 7-25 team against other teams who have been as crappy as we have.

[chipwhich]

The Redskins have gone 7-25 over the last 2 seasons. There isn't a single team in the NFL that anyone, anywhere should be telling themselves that we can/should/will beat. Hopefully Scot M has been talking with Allen and both of them are reminding Snyder not to think like a fan but instead think like an owner and not be surprised if the 7-25 Redskins still look like a 7-25 team against other teams who have been as crappy as we have.

 

The only thing Allen cares about is the Redskins charitable foundation results.  He said so much in his end of year press conference.  That might have been the most disappointed I have been as a fan.

[Fred Jones]

I'm probably in one of the aforementioned camps, but the best grade I could offer him is an INC bc of factors out of his control.

 

I think you just should have just gone with this one sentence.  All players and coaches failed at some level last year.

 

But, considering all the circumstances that surrounded the team last year (that has been discussed enough already) I am happy that both the coaches and players, especially the QB's, will be given plenty of chances to show they can succeed in the NFL.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

The only thing Allen cares about is the Redskins charitable foundation results.  He said so much in his end of year press conference.  That might have been the most disappointed I have been as a fan.

 

*Yawn*...this Allen bashing that's been going on around here is poorly thought out and has become boring at this point. Anyone here who thinks Allen only cares about charities and "harvest festival" stuff only thinks that because they dislike the guy.

[chipwhich]

 

*Yawn*...this Allen bashing that's been going on around here is poorly thought out and has become boring at this point. Anyone here who thinks Allen only cares about charities and "harvest festival" stuff only thinks that because they dislike the guy.

 

I am a results oriented guy.  The only *yawn* is with people who don't care about results but make excuses.  If you can provide anything to backup your support, you are welcome to.

[88Comrade2000]

Our early schedule doesn't scream jack ****, to be honest.

 

The Redskins have gone 7-25 over the last 2 seasons. There isn't a single team in the NFL that anyone, anywhere should be telling themselves that we can/should/will beat. Hopefully Scot M has been talking with Allen and both of them are reminding Snyder not to think like a fan but instead think like an owner and not be surprised if the 7-25 Redskins still look like a 7-25 team against other teams who have been as crappy as we have.

Personally, I think 2-5 what this franchise is closer to. I don't make the decision though.

 

AS usual; some here are already expecting a division title this season.

 

 

What does Dan realistically expect.  Should there be a coaching change in the season; Dan Snyder will be the one pushing it.  Also, if the worst should happen; i still don't trust Snyder to let Scott find the next coach.  Dan may decide , he wants the next big name and decide to get rid of not only the coach but Scott also; if the big name he wants, wants to buy the groceries also.

 

We'll just have to see how things play out.   I for one am not really that excited about this season.  I feel this team still has 2 big mistakes controlling the immediate destiny of this team.   The coach and the QB.  So, until that part of the equaiton changes; then I will really be excited.  Scott was a great first step. but should he get the chance to mold the team with the coach and players; then I will have faith in the future.  Right now, I don't.

 

The only thing that matters is how Dan reacts to whatever happens.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 

I am a results oriented guy.  The only *yawn* is with people who don't care about results but make excuses.  If you can provide anything to backup your support, you are welcome to.

 

 

Point out which words in my post are in "support" of Allen.

 

Hint: you won't be able to.

 

What I did say, though, is that the types of comments you made about the guy in your post have grown stale and tired.

[chipwhich]

 

Point out which words in my post are in "support" of Allen.

 

Hint: you won't be able to.

 

What I did say, though, is that the types of comments you made about the guy in your post have grown stale and tired.

 

If you are defending posts against allen as "stale and tired" that would be support.  What else would you call it.  I could play your same game, saying Allen only cares about the charitable foundation you called bashing, I could say it's not bashing it's just stating facts.

 

Either defend your comments or don't, games are silly.

 

What is tiring is the nonsense, circus, non professionalism, failure to compete, and drama following this team.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Personally, I think 2-5 what this franchise is closer to. I don't make the decision though.

 

AS usual; some here are already expecting a division title this season.

 

 

What does Dan realistically expect.  Should there be a coaching change in the season; Dan Snyder will be the one pushing it.  Also, if the worst should happen; i still don't trust Snyder to let Scott find the next coach.  Dan may decide , he wants the next big name and decide to get rid of not only the coach but Scott also; if the big name he wants, wants to buy the groceries also.

 

We'll just have to see how things play out.   I for one am not really that excited about this season.  I feel this team still has 2 big mistakes controlling the immediate destiny of this team.   The coach and the QB.  So, until that part of the equaiton changes; then I will really be excited.  Scott was a great first step. but should he get the chance to mold the team with the coach and players; then I will have faith in the future.  Right now, I don't.

 

The only thing that matters is how Dan reacts to whatever happens.

 

I think the "Dan is impatient/will fire everyone/meddles" narrative is about 4 years past the expiration date. There have been enough examples and comments over the last 2-3 years from those dealing with him that point directly to a guy who has taken a definite step back...hell, even Shanahan says he doesn't meddle. And again, if Scot M is anywhere close to being the guy everyone here keeps claiming he is, he's already had lengthy convos with Snyder and Allen about both his vision and goals for the team, but also how to get there and what to realistically expect to see during the journey. If so, then starting 2-5 won't be a shock or a surprise to Snyder which means he shouldn't be yelling to "Fire everyone!!" it that does indeed occur.

If you are defending posts against allen as "stale and tired" that would be support.  What else would you call it. 

 

I'd call it criticizing the absolutely lazy effort too many here rely on in their posts. I could give a list of negatives regarding Allen and "He doesn't care if we win he only cares about charities" wouldn't even slightly come close to being on it. I find it sad that people think comments like that indeed factual and valid.

[chipwhich]

I'd call it criticizing the absolutely lazy effort too many here rely on in their posts. I could give a list of negatives regarding Allen and "He doesn't care if we win he only cares about charities" wouldn't even slightly come close to being on it. I find it sad that people think comments like that indeed factual and valid.

 

He essentially said that in his end of year press conference.  I didn't say that.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

He essentially said that in his end of year press conference.  I didn't say that.

 

Ok.

 

And I'm sure he didn't say anything during that same press conference--or in any others--that would indeed indicate that he cares whether or not the Redskins win.

[chipwhich]

Ok.

 

And I'm sure he didn't say anything during that same press conference--or in any others--that would indeed indicate that he cares whether or not the Redskins win.

 

Yeah, he didn't say he cared about winning.  You are correct.  That make you happy?  What he did say was the Redskins were successful because of their charitable campaign.

 

Again, if you have a defense other than nobody hates losing.  Offer it up.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Yeah, he didn't say he cared about winning.  You are correct.  That make you happy?  What he did say was the Redskins were successful because of their charitable campaign.

 

Again, if you have a defense other than nobody hates losing.  Offer it up.

 

“If it meant mowing that lawn out there every Tuesday, I would mow the lawn every darn Tuesday,” exclaimed Allen. “I want the Burgundy and Gold to win. That is my job and my responsibility is to try and figure out how to do that.”

 

 

I have zero clue as to how you hear/read something like that and still walk away from it thinking Allen doesn't care if the Redskins win or lose...or that he said himself that he didn't care.

 

 

“Well, the one thing I do love about the NFL — and I love in all of sports — it does have a scoreboard,” Allen said. “We either win or lose as a team, and it is my responsibility to make sure that we have all the people in place throughout the organization doing their jobs. And as I said earlier, holding those people accountable. And that includes myself.”

 

But has Allen been held accountable? Not really. He’s still in his job despite finishing in last place four of five seasons. So why should Washington fans have confidence that anything will change?

 

“I think there is going to be changes,” Allen said. “That’s part of the evaluation process right now. We’re looking for solutions to get the team back on track.”

 

 

I'm guessing that "get the team back on track" means "make our charitable endeavors more effective"?

 

The interesting part in that second quote is that Allen is ridiculed for making the claim that there will be changes. I'd say there's been massive change so far, even if it doesn't lead to immediate wins.

 

I'm still floored that there are people who hang onto that particular press conference in the ways that they do.

 

And just for you, Chip...

 

"I do think our Charitable Foundation does a fantastic job. We’re winning off the field, but we’ve got to start winning on the field.”

 

That last part--about how the Redskins have "got to start winning on the field"--Is that the part I need to ignore to see things thru your eyes?

[chipwhich]

 I'm still floored that there are people who hang onto that particular press conference in the ways that they do.

 

Like I said, I am results driven.

 

You obviously missed the ENTIRE dumbfoundness of EVERY reporter at that press conference.

Good for you.

 

Thank god we have a GM now that understands drafting players. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Like I said, I am results driven.

 

You obviously missed the ENTIRE dumbfoundness of EVERY reporter at that press conference.

Good for you.

 

Thank god we have a GM now that understands drafting players. 

 

Nothing you said here backs up your claim that Allen doesn't care about winning, he only cares about the franchise's charitable foundations, does it?...

 

That's the only thing about any of your posts that I commented on. You--apparently--seem to think that because the Skins have sucked 4 out of the last 5 years that any criticism you aim at Allen is, by default, correct and accurate. I don't understand that mindset, but....

[LD0506]

See, this is what you get when you suck for decades. No matter how optimistic anyone tries to be there is always the "Well we have sucked for decades" counter. And tbh I get that, it hasn't been easy to root for the Skins in a long time.

 

But............

 

Allen was utterly trashed after that presser, nothing he said or could say would have gotten any positive reviews. If you watch it even he seems to know it and seemed resigned to taking a lot of flak. He's been stalwart, takes the high road every time, I can respect the man for that. At this point it sure appears that what he said was absolutely true and accurate, it's probably too much to expect that people would actually admit they were wrong and apologize but at least stop trying to twist that into a validation of the eternal suckitude chorus.

 

When you strip away the hyperbole and angst, the facts speak for themselves, there HAVE been fundamental changes. New GM, QB/OL/secondary coaches, round of savvy FA pickups, a very different draft from what we've seen in years past. There are clear and genuine reasons to expect improvement. Does that automatically translate into more wins this year? Nope Does that change the past, you know, that tired refrain about sucking? Nope, 'cuz neither of those offer any new facts to discuss, but you can't claim to only judge based on results and then pass judgement before any results are in.

 

For me, this may be the apex of my optimistic fannery this year, but I am going to enjoy looking ahead and hoping for the best- until that gets cruelly taken from me as in years past.

[bedlamVR]

Not a Jay supporter or a Jay hater.

 

I just want to ask one of the haters a simple question.

 

What coach could come into this clown show and run the team appropriately?  Because Turner Couldn't.  Terri Robiskie Couldn't.  Schotty Couldn't.  Spurrier Couldn't.  Zorn Couldn't.  Gibbs II Couldn't.  Shanny Couldn't.

Now Gruden can't.

 

You see there is a pattern.

 

Jay may be a bust but the nonsense over expectations of running a clown show gets a little silly.

It depends what you mean by appropriate ... If you mean winning a Super Bowl then no none of those listed made the grade but that is unrealistic expectations . What I wanted to see was a team who could be a team that made games fun to watch . I would argue Gibbs did that and shanty for very short stretches could do that . The rest well they all kind of failed for different reasons ...

Turner could not do it after 7 long years of poor results ... For instance going 7-2 to missing the playoffs or 0-7 a couple of years before Snyder was on the scene ... He was on borrowed time .

Robiskie was never a head coach prospect and was the epitimy of a care taker manager . Maybe he should have had a better chance but it never materialized here or anywhere else .

Shottenhiemer had something no coach has had since and that was a full out player rebellion mid season . He also had some of the worst positional coaches we have ever had and he quit on the team when Dan Snyder wanted to give someone else control over the personel. This issue of giving coaches too much power has dogged Dan since his arrival . Shottenhiemer then went to San Diego and made a bad franchise even worse until the brain trust over there put A J Smith in charge of personel and they lucked into a desperate NY franchise needing to make the lopsided Eli Manning trade ....

Spurrier never understood the NFL and never really cared . Phoned in most of the second season and quit from the golf course .... Kind of tells you what you need to know .

Gibbs could have gone on forever had he wanted too . If you are implying the "meddling Dan Snyder effect" pushed him out then I am not sure what to say.

Zorn was undone by his own arrogance and a spineless GM who tried to distance himself when things went bad - the Zorn eara was the first time Vinny had full GM type powers before then he was an over stated head scout and Dan Snyder flunky ....

Finally Mike Shannahan ... And he was undone by his paranoia . He had to be in charge but he never really had that over riding boisterous personality here that demanded respect so he made a ring of trust of loyal employees around him ... Not saying that in itself is a bad thing when you are winning ( and he was an offensive genius) but tends to lead to the types of shenanigans we saw in 2013 with unnamed sources waging war the in media power battles and unprofessional press leaks and a divided locker room where some players were shunted off into the dog house with finger pointing and clique forming when loosing ... The thing is this is what undid Mike in Denver too ...

With Jay and the way he handled himself in year one concerns me we have yet another guy in over his head as with Jim Zorn and Steve Spurrier who coaches with his heart on his sleeve and the HC position in the modern NFL demands more than that.

Now with a strong football GM in place a lot of the structural issues in terms of changes to the coaching staff thing might change ... I guess time will tell but so far signs are not promising ...

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Shanahan just came out three days ago and said Snyder was pushing for a certain style of offense. I'd say that qualifies as meddling.

[Burgold]

Shanahan just came out three days ago and said Snyder was pushing for a certain style of offense. I'd say that qualifies as meddling.

Yeah, Snyder went to Shanahan and said, "Mike I brought you in here to bring a certain kind of offense, you know, one that wins!"

 

Mike wasn't hearing any of it, "I'm in total control, Danny boy. You gave me the keys to the kingdom and I like close exciting games. That's why I keep hiring defense coordinators like Jimbo."

 

"I want an offense that can close out a game, Mike. What can we do to stop these double digit loss seasons?"

 

"You don't know football, Mr. Snyder. Back off. I'm playing possum. Stop meddling with me! You didn't hire me to win games you hired me to coach your football team!" 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Shanahan just came out three days ago and said Snyder was pushing for a certain style of offense. I'd say that qualifies as meddling.

 

“You know, to be honest with you, he really didn’t. He didn’t interfere. The only thing he felt really strongly about was Robert [Griffin III] not running the football in 2012, which is understandable, especially with some of the shots he was taking."

 

So now having an opinion--even a strong one--constitutes "meddling"?

 

If we have to "define-down" the definition of "meddling" in order to keep fitting Snyder under that category, that should speak volumes.

[Jumbo]

I'm glad for the tone in some of the more recent posts (especially since it's a relaxing holiday here so far lol), because I had a very dissecting and blunt post I wrote that spotlights a bunch of BS (IMO) in a specific post, but it would hardly have added to any productive bridging of any gulfs. There are times that's more important to me than "busting" someone. I was trying to hold back on it anyway, but I have added reason now. I will say the concept of strawmen and just general bs (that is pretty transparent after evisceration) was featured. Sometimes some poster's habitual behaviors combined with a particular meaty "ho, you got to be kidding with that" post scream for such, but if I can find a way to talk myself out off it I prefer just writing it off as "oh well, it's just a message board thing" and moving on.

 

Redskns2000 said something that I can understand. I am a Redskins fan who essentially "doesn't care" (no hate or love) about Robert or Jay in any special way at this point other than the baseline obvious one--they're on MY team. 

 

I currently have no personal or even strong fan attachment to either of them. Such attachment is available---but they need to become an easily recognizable part of the team winning, not talking. I am being very superficial about it. Right now the MS years to pre-Scot looks like another familiar black hole after a brief (but potentially shaky to me even then) light in '12.

 

And to me Dan, Bruce, MS, RG3, and now Jay, are among those I hold culpable---not fully, or to the same degree, in each case, but significantly in each case.

 

Actually, out of that group, I'd cut jay the most slack at this point, but I'd also claim that RG3/Bruce/MS have done more positives for the team than jay who hasn't shown much yet. My view is he deserves a season two and merits a still-open mind (doesn't preclude a strong leaning in either direction). But sometimes since '12, I just wish as a Redskins fan that I could wake up and find I don't have to "deal with" issues around Robert or our HC (now Jay). 

 

Both the current HC and #1 QB seem like generally "great guys" to me overall, but that's it. For so many here, protests and denials aside, the sheer emotionalism (love/hate) leads the "polarizing" people refer to just as in other "hot topics" of non-football nature. Emotionalism is why they're "hot topics." 2 plus 2.

 

Many have invested a great deal of emotion in this stuff--duh--but then that actually gets denied and the posture that they're only being objective and analytical is often taken. In two successful careers, those two terms have played a key role for me. Look up their definitions.

 

There's a lot of what I'd call "bs" or maybe just "stuff" that tries to get "sold" around here as something other than what it is (partially or entirely). That's normal. It's an internet message board. More than a few people are here for more reasons than to just talk football. The're living part of their life here, and that means who they are and what "drives" various behaviors is all over the place, and in volume in many cases.

 

Most humans are most often emotionally-driven beings at a fundamental level. Soooo....get real.

 

We have opinions on this stuff. We're often (usually) emotional about it (often even juvenile or immature, and at the core, even irrational about it--hardly requires examples, I'd hope). We're message board posters. We're not world-beating NFL pros even if we "know a lot about football compared to a lot of other fans."  Many of us likely don't live at the top of the ladder in what we have chosen as our professions, which likely ain't rocket surgery, either.

[roanoker]

Lol, after reading this thread and considering some of the identified villians I'm convinced that it's really all my fault for being a Redskins fan. Too bad, Im here for the long haul.

[TSO]

Lol, after reading this thread and considering some of the identified villians I'm convinced that it's really all my fault for being a Redskins fan. Too bad, Im here for the long haul.

 

Well, we'll give you a prove-it year. If you fail, it's time to bring in the right guy. I'm sure the new mods have a group of posters in mind and would select the right one to replace you.

 

Remember, you were never "our guy" in the first place. Not sure what those old mods were basing their hiring decisions on. You weren't "special" coming out.