Jay Gruden and the new Philosophy - and all things coaching...hell it is offseason after all.

[Laron Burgundy]

LB, I was responding to s0crates. I allowed you the last word on this topic and honored that, but I can engage with others who want to chime in, especially when I feel they're misrepresenting my views.

Shame you had to throw that jab and then follow up with yet one more post about it directed right at me when you also said you wanted it to stop.

Used my name twice along with responding to points that were brought up. Maybe you didn't quote me directly, but I'd say that's not dropping things.

My thoughts on Gruden are that he learned a lesson and has changed his approach with the media, but I wonder if he regrets what he said, I don't think he does or should. I think it opened a lot of eyes to the real situation, even if the truth was used as a wrecking ball it was still the truth.

Did Jay Gruden have anything to do with Scot taking the job? I think Jon Gruden had something to do with it, Scot knows the family and should have had enough information to know that he could work with Jay.

This is the sentiment I don't understand. He called out one player. He didn't call out the team management or meddling of Snyder or any higher problem, and yet a lot of people on here act like he gave a 95 theses on the problems of this franchise.

I don't think Jay had anything to do with scot. Despite always playing the villain, scot, most likely, was hired due to danny. His money talks and he wants to win. The Tampa boys weren't getting the job done.

[Aireskoi]

Used my name twice along with responding to points that were brought up. Maybe you didn't quote me directly, but I'd say that's not dropping things.

This is the sentiment I don't understand. He called out one player. He didn't call out the team management or meddling of Snyder or any higher problem, and yet a lot of people on here act like he gave a 95 theses on the problems of this franchise.

I don't think Jay had anything to do with scot. Despite always playing the villain, scot, most likely, was hired due to danny. His money talks and he wants to win. The Tampa boys weren't getting the job done.

 

I think Jay did have something to do with Scot, I think there was a connection and comfort with his brother and father if I remember correctly.  

 

Maybe Jay didn't have a problem with team management, and just maybe Snyder wasn't meddling, or maybe it would not be his place as he is not their coach but rather the player's coach.  I don't know.  I do know he called out his media darling QB and let me know he was not who I thought he was.  

 

I don't have any emotional attachments to RG3 anymore, so I have no problem saying that.  I'm not saying I don't want him to be great and lead the franchise to winning seasons for the next 15 years, that would be great.  I lost the emotional attachment to the guy with all the off the field non-sense followed by failure on the field.  It's up to him to win that back now, and I'm sure many feel fans that way.

[Laron Burgundy]

I think Jay did have something to do with Scot, I think there was a connection and comfort with his brother and father if I remember correctly.

Maybe Jay didn't have a problem with team management, and just maybe Snyder wasn't meddling, or maybe it would not be his place as he is not their coach but rather the player's coach. I don't know. I do know he called out his media darling QB and let me know he was not who I thought he was.

I don't have any emotional attachments to RG3 anymore, so I have no problem saying that. I'm not saying I don't want him to be great and lead the franchise to winning seasons for the next 15 years, that would be great. I lost the emotional attachment to the guy with all the off the field non-sense followed by failure on the field. It's up to him to win that back now, and I'm sure many feel fans that way.

I'm sure Scott has a connection with nearly any franchise, football is a very interconnected sport, doesn't make his connection to Jay anything more than a friend of a friend.

You earlier said gruden opened up eyes to how things really are, though I think most people who watched rg3 could tell you he struggled making reads and his footwork was sloppy. I don't think jay's presser really revealed any great epiphany on rg3. It just wasn't the forum to address those issues. A simple "he played poorly, we're going to work on that" would have sufficed.

[chipwhich]

You earlier said gruden opened up eyes to how things really are, though I think most people who watched rg3 could tell you he struggled making reads and his footwork was sloppy. I don't think jay's presser really revealed any great epiphany on rg3. It just wasn't the forum to address those issues. A simple "he played poorly, we're going to work on that" would have sufficed.

 

You are over simplifying the drama behind the scenes with RG3.  A simple "he played poorly" wouldn't have sufficed.  It was a lot more complex than that, but it's hard for those to just be rah rah RG3 to accept.

 

For what it's worth, the clown show is over now IMO.

[TSO]

Used my name twice along with responding to points that were brought up. Maybe you didn't quote me directly, but I'd say that's not dropping things.

Okay, sounds good. It was a bit difficult not to mention you when s0crates was directly referring to your points, but I could've done better avoiding it. Will keep that in mind for the next keyboard battle.

[elkabong82]

Not as big a fan of Jay as I was when he first got here, but the man does not get the credit he deserves from some of us fans when it comes to NFL knowledge, especially offense. He know offense. What I think his biggest problem was last year was putting too much responsibility on his shoulders and he had a huge learning curve when it came to being HC. The pains of that learning curve became very obvious as the season wore on.

 

I am hopeful that with GMSM providing the pieces and the direction that Jay can do his part with greater focus now. Jay it seems now has a more refined role and a vision to follow. Last season he may have had too much freedom and got away from things, plus he had a new OC who was young, first-timer and no QB coach. McVay has a year under the belt of learning from mistakes, we have a good QB coach now, and Jay has a lot less to focus on. So hopefully with a good support system in place Jay can get back to doing things well on offense; the same things that landed him a HC gig. If not, I don't imagine the leash is too long. A system is being put into place here, built around a philosophy, and it will become obvious very quickly if coaching is what's holding the team back since other pieces will be falling into place. I hope he does well because he is a top OC in the league and that combined with a tough as nails D makes for a great combo if everything is clicking. 

[skinny21]

Nice post Elk.

I think hiring Gruden was likely not the best choice for what our team was, but still could be a good choice for what our team will be. I didn't like his decisions for the team last year, but it seems that he (and Allen's) decisions - Scot, Cavanaugh, Barry, Callaghan - and the decisions of these men they hired form a vision, a philosophy that we've sorely lacked for years. I still don't know if Gruden is the right coach, but the aforementioned decisions make me willing to give him some time.

You're right though Elk - if things come into place as they seem to be, we'll know sooner rather than later whether he is the man for the job. Right now I'll settle for competence, and if he isn't the man, we'll (hopefully) have a team in place for the right man to get the job done... if we can find him. So, right now, I'm absolutely rooting for Gruden and for the new FO.

[TSO]

Fair enough. It really is more my loyalty to Gibbs than anything else.

I would appreciate some kind of link or reference on the Michaels thing though. All I can find is stuff about Snyder's media hijinx.

Anyway, go ride Splash Mountain for me. I loved that as a kid.

Finally had the time to see if I could come up with a link or reference to that for you. Hard to do since it was essentially on local TV.

However, good ol ES came through.

http://es.redskins.com/topic/174465-george-michael-said-that-joe-gibbs-unloaded-on-the-players-today/page-1

The video links don't seem to work but you can get a feel for it from the posts. I vividly remember George coming out of nowhere with this and essentially speaking for Gibbs. It was really neat at the time and totally deserved.

I hope this doesn't delve into semantics, nitpicking and moving the goalposts like so many posts have recently.

[The Wicked Wop]

 

You are sorta making my point.  You want to judge Gruden, you judge him THIS year.  Wouldn't it be nice to judge him on his merits leading a functional franchise and not one with he said she said at every corner?

 

I am excited about this season for the first time in a long time.  And I am old enough to have enjoyed our super bowl wins.

 

 

Oh I agree, and I think the same is true for the teams FO in general.

 

Back around and during Bruce's presser I remember Jason Reid was calling for Scott Campbell's to losing his paycheck.  Whats occurred since, he was retained, worked with SM through FA and a draft in which most would say the Skins made legitimate significant improvement for the first time in years, with even added depth to boot....a new concept in these parts, and he even earned SM's praise. What appears to be the most obvious answer is he was an employee under utilized or possibly ignored for years.  His contributions and failures will always be tough to know, but getting praise from your new boss when many were made to believe he would be getting a pink slip is a good sign.

 

Bruce Allen is a usual punching bag around here (and for Jason Reid) but nearly all his time here he aided Shanny and Snyder in things they wanted, and not the guy the directing the teams course (except for after Shanny for 1 year).... though he did have a say in some decisions.

 

Allen may get slammed for Orakpo's money but unlike Cerrato he wasn't going to wager the future on a player he liked.  Many have slammed Allen's 2014 draft but we know Breeland is key in the teams defensive plans, Long seems likely to replace Chester for millions less, Murphy seems much more ready to play this year then last., We may not know Moses along with a few others impact for a bit more time but that is common in most drafts.   It wasn't a star studded draft but like this year,it has the sense of a no frills blue-collar type of draft which is not a bad thing for this team. If last years drafted o-lineman step up and this years all make the team, within 2 drafts we'd have retooled the o-line that has been mostly a major problem for years at millions less . Yes you keep trying to improve it every year year but the base is there.

 

Clearly Allen is an administrator more than then a GM as he is now to deal with contracts and party planning if anyone needs to go there, but he is also the reason Scot M is here because of his connections.

[Laron Burgundy]

You are over simplifying the drama behind the scenes with RG3.  A simple "he played poorly" wouldn't have sufficed.  It was a lot more complex than that, but it's hard for those to just be rah rah RG3 to accept.

 

For what it's worth, the clown show is over now IMO.

 

I think you are actually oversimplifying by grouping two statements Jay made in that presser together.  He, later in that interview, said RG3 needs to worry about himself and let Gruden worry about everyone else.  That's a comment that I've never seen anyone disagree with.  But early in the presser Gruden goes on a laundry list of mistakes from Griffin that was absolutely not needed.  It would have been perfectly acceptable in a qb meeting, but in a presser?  It didn't serve a purpose.  It added to the clown show, it didn't fix anything.

 

I think, ironically, those who share your sentiment are the ones more concerned at WHO the comments from Jay were directed at.  To me, I would have been disappointed in that line of commentary even had he been talking about Chris Chester, and believe me, I share no love for him as a player.  It's such a fundamental rule of leadership that it should be, at the very least, disconcerting for even the staunchest Jay supporter.  You don't critique your people in public as a leader, period.

[Laron Burgundy]

Finally had the time to see if I could come up with a link or reference to that for you. Hard to do since it was essentially on local TV.

However, good ol ES came through.

http://es.redskins.com/topic/174465-george-michael-said-that-joe-gibbs-unloaded-on-the-players-today/page-1

The video links don't seem to work but you can get a feel for it from the posts. I vividly remember George coming out of nowhere with this and essentially speaking for Gibbs. It was really neat at the time and totally deserved.

I hope this doesn't delve into semantics, nitpicking and moving the goalposts like so many posts have recently.

 

Actually that looks like pretty much what I thought it would be.  It's not a critique.  He's being critical, and challenging the group as a whole, but it doesn't sound like he's singling out any one player or giving a laundry list of mistakes.  It's a far cry from what Gruden did, just like how 2006 was a far cry from 2014.

[s0crates]

Finally had the time to see if I could come up with a link or reference to that for you. Hard to do since it was essentially on local TV.

However, good ol ES came through.

http://es.redskins.com/topic/174465-george-michael-said-that-joe-gibbs-unloaded-on-the-players-today/page-1

The video links don't seem to work but you can get a feel for it from the posts. I vividly remember George coming out of nowhere with this and essentially speaking for Gibbs. It was really neat at the time and totally deserved.

I hope this doesn't delve into semantics, nitpicking and moving the goalposts like so many posts have recently.

Thanks for the reference. Frankly it is as I suspected, not at all like what Gruden did.

I do remember that story. Michaels reported that Gibbs was getting angry with the team, yelling in the locker room, punching lockers, that kind of thing.

This was interesting specifically because Gibbs did NOT go off on his team in public. In public it was only praise. Behind closed doors is different.

Not sure how that compares to publicly throwing a player under the bus and "dry snitching" . . . Seems like apples and oranges to me.

[TSO]

How did Michael know about it? He was just around?

I didn't expect you guys to be willing to accept it as I saw it, but really? No similarities? Just assuming Gibbs happened to go off on the team and George was around to let the world know, lol?

Come on, guys. Man, no evidence is good enough, is it? You can even see from the posts in that thread how it was viewed differently by different people.

I'm even there, in 2006, posting about how surprised I was by it.

Oh well, I guess I'm just crazy for seeing it that way.

[Bishop Hammer]

My guy was Whisenhunt, but when we hired Gruden, I wasn't mad. I think he'll be a good coach, but he's going to need time. Let Scot have a couple of more drafts and you'll see what he can do.

Mine was Dan Quinn, Gruden was my second choice. Other than that I agree about Jay being a good coach if given time.

[Burgold]

Mine was Dan Quinn, Gruden was my second choice. Other than that I agree about Jay being a good coach if given time.

I had three criteria.

 

First time head coach who was looking to make his name.

Young.

Was a coordinator who coached the opposite side of the ball as his head coach.

 

Jay ticked off all my boxes and so I was ready to give him a shot. Still am though my faith has been beat up a bit.

 

 

 

If you like my posts click my signature and check out my new book. Make a 'skins dream come true!

[Laron Burgundy]

Gruden was down on the list for me. Everything from his offensive system (poor fit for our personnel), to his lack of experience (3 years as an NFL coach), to his below league average intelligence for a coach. The first two can be fixed given enough time, but the last one is why I would be shocked if he will ever be a consistent winner.

[China]

Gruden was down on the list for me. Everything from his offensive system (poor fit for our personnel), to his lack of experience (3 years as an NFL coach), to his below league average intelligence for a coach. The first two can be fixed given enough time, but the last one is why I would be shocked if he will ever be a consistent winner.

 

So tell me, how do you quantify league average intelligence for coaches?  Is there a coaches Wonderlic, or are you just talking out of your ass?

[The Wicked Wop]

So tell me, how do you quantify league average intelligence for coaches?  Is there a coaches Wonderlic, or are you just talking out of your ass?

 

lol,.......how in world could even an informed fan come to that understanding of a coordinator your considering with the limited public access you have of him to that point..............seems like a fair choice but his freaking LAI just screams no.

 

Actually I found it, there is an app for that, you select the 20 most common facial expressions a coach makes when you consider hiring them and sure enough the LAI can come up every 1 in 20,000 as a red flag.

[chipwhich]

Lol, when you can't win a debate, you insult someones intelligence.  :-)  ES always delivers.

[The Wicked Wop]

 

 

 

 

 

Holy crap I see it now, his LAI is in the single figures for sure!

[Bishop Hammer]

I had three criteria.

First time head coach who was looking to make his name.

Young.

Was a coordinator who coached the opposite side of the ball as his head coach.

Jay ticked off all my boxes and so I was ready to give him a shot. Still am though my faith has been beat up a bit.

If you like my posts click my signature and check out my new book. Make a 'skins dream come true!

Next time I am on a computer I will check your book out(typing from mobile, sigs don't show up on it).

Why do you feel its important he coached on opposite side as head coach? Just curious to hear your reasoning?

[Laron Burgundy]

So tell me, how do you quantify league average intelligence for coaches?  Is there a coaches Wonderlic, or are you just talking out of your ass?

 

Are you telling me you can't tell the general intelligence of a guy from hearing and watching him talk?  It's not rocket science.  Sure, there's no standardized test for them, but you can't tell me that he strikes you as above average for coaches.  Make no mistake, that's still smarter than the general population, he's not dumb at all, but in the scheme of coaches he's not among the top.  I could be wrong, maybe he seems like an intellectual to you, but I don't see it.

Lol, when you can't win a debate, you insult someones intelligence.  :-)  ES always delivers.

 

What debate would that be?  I seem to recall one guy laughably asserting that Gruden was to thank for McC.

[chipwhich]

What debate would that be?  I seem to recall one guy laughably asserting that Gruden was to thank for McC.

 

There is a thread about Jay Gruden and the new philosophy....in case you missed it.

 

And no, you can't tell his intelligence level based on last year.

 

If you think last years debacle and that disaster of a presser didn't help Snyder force a GM hire you are fooling yourself.  As I posted, Gruden was like, I am not going out like that, his honesty was the only that kept him from going out like every other coach here.  But you don't recognize the circus. 

[Peregrine]

I think last years debacle had a whole lot more influence than the presser by Allen.  In fact, I think the presser by Allen had almost no impact.  You dont go from not looking, to hiring a guy that quickly as well as its well reported that they had previously talked to Scotty Mac about the job.  The Allen press conference was a disaster not because he was honest, but because he was trying to hide everything that was about to happen.  Thats why he wouldnt answer questions, and why it was so frustrating.

[The Wicked Wop]

Gruden was down on the list for me. Everything from his offensive system (poor fit for our personnel), to his lack of experience (3 years as an NFL coach), to his below league average intelligence for a coach. The first two can be fixed given enough time, but the last one is why I would be shocked if he will ever be a consistent winner.

 

 

Are you telling me you can't tell the general intelligence of a guy from hearing and watching him talk?  It's not rocket science.  Sure, there's no standardized test for them, but you can't tell me that he strikes you as above average for coaches.  Make no mistake, that's still smarter than the general population, he's not dumb at all, but in the scheme of coaches he's not among the top.  I could be wrong, maybe he seems like an intellectual to you, but I don't see it.

 

What debate would that be?  I seem to recall one guy laughably asserting that Gruden was to thank for McC.

 

 

The issue with your argument is in your first post you seemed to have advanced knowledge of his deficiency in this area and it was a major reason why he should not have been hired in the first place.

 

In your next post your reason sounds like our current understanding of him, in which case we shouldn't have brought him back.

 

 

In any event I get it. I've been back and forth on Jay staying our coach, however if he really has any chance to succeed he definitely needs a GM in place like SM. Someone who is not his friend (per se), one with a strong track record of success building teams in a certain manner and with a certain type of player. This forces Jay to do all the adapting to grow and win as a coach.

 

This is in stark contrast from what we had in Shanny, who's rosters were all over the place. He definitely found some strong players that will be with this team for some time. However, the one constant was it left us with an undersized front line which if we can turn over 3 of the starters (for the price we paid) by the 2nd year since Shanny's been gone, that will be a true accomplishment.