tshile Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 but what happens if all the pilots fall asleep, and the off duty pilot that happens to be on the flight cannot get into the cabin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOF44 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Sometimes when your numbers up, it's just up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 but what happens if all the pilots fall asleep, and the off duty pilot that happens to be on the flight cannot get into the cabin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Sometimes when your numbers up, it's just up. I'd bet that on the Air Malaysia flight somewhere over Ukraine someone was getting stressed by a crying baby and wondering what could be worse than another ten hours of listening to that cacophony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss_Hogg Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 following the general conversation, it's hard to imagine how you can ever really protect against this. how do you make sure pilots don't have this mental state issue? is there really a way to constantly check this? if there is, would anyone allow it? would consumers pay the cost increase associated with it? people want ways into the ****pit, yet after 9/11 the #1 demand was to make sure no one can get into the ****pit if the pilots in the ****pit didn't want them in. there is no solution to this... you either make it so someone can't get in, or can get it. you can't have it both ways. the US policy is that a flight attendant must stay in there, but I wonder how effective that really is? the average man is just physically stronger than the average woman and i have no reason to believe the averages for male pilots vs female flight attendants would suggest otherwise. i also have no reason to believe that there would be a male flight attendant available. only about 25% of flight attendants are male (http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/dear-mona-how-many-flight-attendants-are-men/), so this isn't even a realistic request. and less than 10% of pilots are female. not to mention you'd likely have to fight claims of sexism if you even tried to discuss that part of the issue as a public figure. so is having one pilot leave and a female flight attendant really that great of an option? doesn't seem that way to me. normally i can see a solution to problems, even if i don't think society will actually accept that solution ("solution" in my opinion of course.) i don't see one for this. making the piloting of planes completely automated is the only way, since computers don't (yet) develop suicidal desires, but it introduces a whole different issue. the only thing worse than a ****ty situation is one where you just don't see a way to prevent it in the future. Airline Transport Pilots (ATP Certificates) under 40 carry a class one medical certificate. They're required to renew the certificate every 12 months. All ATP pilots over the age of 40 are required to renew every 6 months. There is a psychological evaluation portion for the medical examination. However, unless the applicant has a medical history, most of this is on the "honor system". I now hold a class 3 certificate (private/student pilot). I was asked very basic things about suicide, drug use, alcohol use, etc. The penalties for falsifying information on your medical application are severe. The problem with FAA medicals is that they're reactive and not proactive. The FAA will only pull your medical after you have an incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special K Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I don't think I will ever, ever understand how someone who could do something this horrific and this insane doesn't display any warning signs or raise any red flags anywhere in his life prior to such an act. I would really like more details on how stringent Lufthansa's (and other airlines') mental health screening process is. I know it's like trying to pick a needle out of a haystack to identify someone like this when 99.9999% of the crew members are sane, but damn. My mind is blown over how someone could appear normal and well-adjusted then just one day up and commit mass murder-suicide. How does one keep a suicidal pilot from downing a plane? Make sure there are always at least 2 crew members in the ****pit at all times. The airline I worked for had a protocol for crew vacating the ****pit during flight operations. If the captain or FO had to leave the flightdeck for any reason, another cabin crew member (the flight attendant) would occupy the empty seat in the flight deck. Hopefully that will become standard practice in all airlines after the publicity from this as well as the Air Malaysia crash last year. I fail to see how the US rules are anything close to fool-proof. Again, you put the average middle aged woman in the ****pit with an average middleaged man, and if the man is hell bent of a suicide mission I don't see how anyone can feel good about the woman's chances in physically restraining the man. Fine, put multiple female crew members in the weinerpit while the pilot or co-pilot uses the restroom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DM72 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I keep hearing, "make sure another crew member is in the ****pit at all times." OK, one's a trained pilot and one's not. If the pilot do something sudden, I don't see how it would make that big a difference. I think the best solution would be to have 3 pilot crews. I know some flights do. The curse filter strikes again lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveakl Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I keep hearing, "make sure another crew member is in the ****pit at all times." OK, one's a trained pilot and one's not. If the pilot do something sudden, I don't see how it would make that big a difference. I think the best solution would be to have 3 pilot crews. I know some flights do. The curse filter strikes again lol. Here's the thing. Even with three, one leaves to go potty. Second one knocks third out from behind and crashes plane. No matter what if a pilot or even flight attendant is hell bent on taking down an airplane and willing to wait for the perfect opportunity I'm not sure any measure is going to prevent them. At some point you have to say we have a contingency in place for almost every possibly but we acknowledge that there are some things we can't stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Here's the thing. Even with three, one leaves to go potty. Second one knocks third out from behind and crashes plane. Suicidal pilot takes a gun on board. (Do flight crews have to go through security?) Pulls gun, orders other two pilots out of the roosterpit. (Or just shoots both of them.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I don't know this for absolute certain but I'd be extremely surprised if the crew didn't have to go through security. Somebody mentioned earlier that the copilot had to override the system. Could you make it so that both pilots had to enter s code or turn a key in order to override? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I've been wondering about the grieving process. It may be a bit of a morbid question, but I wonder if it's easier on the families and loved ones if this tragedy was an act of murder vs. a horrible accident due to malfunction. I kind of think so. I mean at least in this case, the families have someone to target their anger at. In the other situation, it's just an act of God, a senseless thing. Anger's at least a coping mechanism. Mind you, it's still senseless even if was suicide, murder, or terrorism, but at least you can rationalize and focus your energies a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Crew does have to go through security. There have even been disputes where TSA workers have decided they want to take some personal item off a pilot, e.g. a gift of home-made jam that doesn't comply with the 3oz rule. TSA doesn't like to be reminded in those situations that the pilot will be behind a locked door, so if he has ill intent the plane is already lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 I've been wondering about the grieving process. It may be a bit of a morbid question, but I wonder if it's easier on the families and loved ones if this tragedy was an act of murder vs. a horrible accident due to malfunction. I kind of think so. I mean at least in this case, the families have someone to target their anger at. In the other situation, it's just an act of God, a senseless thing. Anger's at least a coping mechanism. Mind you, it's still senseless even if was suicide, murder, or terrorism, but at least you can rationalize and focus your energies a bit. I don't know, Burgold. Impotent rage piled on top of unimaginable grief seems like a terrible psychological burden to bear. I guess if the anger distracts the person from the grief, that makes it easier to cope at least temporarily, but I tend to agree with John Prine: A heart stained in anger grows weak and grows bitter. You become your own prisoner as you watch yourself sit there wrapped up in a trap of your very own chain of sorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 I don't know this for absolute certain but I'd be extremely surprised if the crew didn't have to go through security. Somebody mentioned earlier that the copilot had to override the system. Could you make it so that both pilots had to enter s code or turn a key in order to override? And if one becomes incapacitated(which is more likely than this situation)? The US protocol and better screening are probably the best bet, but this investigation is far from over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 I don't know, Burgold. Impotent rage piled on top of unimaginable grief seems like a terrible psychological burden to bear. I guess if the anger distracts the person from the grief, that makes it easier to cope at least temporarily, but I tend to agree with John Prine: A heart stained in anger grows weak and grows bitter. You become your own prisoner as you watch yourself sit there wrapped up in a trap of your very own chain of sorrow. Yeah, I've been wrestling with that. I mean there is no good answer and I guess it also is time dependent as you suggest. In the short term, anger might help, but it might be more destructive in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 And if one becomes incapacitated(which is more likely than this situation)?I dunno. The control tower can sonehow do it if one of the pilots is incapacitated? There's a solution to every puzzle. Unfortunately, this also would apply to the puzzle of, "how do I kill a bunch of people?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss_Hogg Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Yes crew are required to go through TSA, however there are smaller airports such as State College, Elmira, Charlottesville, Appleton, WI where they would let us bypass TSA and go to the ramp through operations. I left the airlines nearly 10 years ago, so it's possible this isn't allowed anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Very sad for all the victims and families Will be interesting to see what unfolds as the investigation takes place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooleyfan1993 Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 talked about this in my communications class today...sad that someone would take away the lives of others just cause the co-pilot is feeling bad (if that is why he crashed the plane, idk). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Very sad for all the victims and families Will be interesting to see what unfolds as the investigation takes place. Indeed. They supposedly made a significant discovery at his home,so perhaps we will know more soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrFan Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 German newspaper Bild published the medical record of Lubitz. I wonder what medical confidentiality means ? Will the MD be prosecuted ? He was suffering from severe depression. In 2009 during his training he was put under psychiatric care ! He had the CIS label attached to his file, which means that the pilot can fly but must, however, be placed under very special regular medical checks. Now I know why the CEO of Lufthansa was suddenly so uncomfortable and getting defensive when asked about the medical check-ups. I don't think allowing another crew member to enter the ****pit will solve the problem. Imagine you allow a male cabin attendant to get in, nothing will tell you that the guy isn't suffering from depression either. Moreover this CA could take the axe (located in the aircraft to fight fire) and use it as a weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 German newspaper Bild published the medical record of Lubitz. I wonder what medical confidentiality means ? Will the MD be prosecuted ? He was suffering from severe depression. In 2009 during his training he was put under psychiatric care ! He had the CIS label attached to his file, which means that the pilot can fly but must, however, be placed under very special regular medical checks. Now I know why the CEO of Lufthansa was suddenly so uncomfortable and getting defensive when asked about the medical check-ups. I don't think allowing another crew member to enter the ****pit will solve the problem. Imagine you allow a male cabin attendant to get in, nothing will tell you that the guy isn't suffering from depression either. Moreover this CA could take the axe (located in the aircraft to fight fire) and use it as a weapon. Yah I saw a brief snippet from the press conference, that CEO came across like a raging assholeI'm always amazed how these guys can be so sure and unequivocal in the face of chaos. It just reeks of either stupidity or arrogance. Or both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrFan Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Yah I saw a brief snippet from the press conference, that CEO came across like a raging asshole I'm always amazed how these guys can be so sure and unequivocal in the face of chaos. It just reeks of either stupidity or arrogance. Or both I think if he has a tiny little bit of honor, he should resign and apologize, but as you said, I believe arrogance will prevail. There are so many billions of €€€ at stake here. Every time there is a crash like that which doesn't fit in the usual charts I'm very suspicious, or should I say in a borderline conspiracy theory state of mind. Can't help myself thinking what are they trying to hide ? I remember the crash of AF296, they blamed the pilot to cover up a dysfunction in the A320. I tend to feel the same concerning the Malaysian airline aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Suicidal pilot takes a gun on board. (Do flight crews have to go through security?) Pulls gun, orders other two pilots out of the roosterpit. (Or just shoots both of them.) They go through security, but pilots are allowed to carry guns now. http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=125224 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 The problem with FAA medicals is that they're reactive and not proactive. The FAA will only pull your medical after you have an incident. This is the problem with most government policies/procedures. Rarely are they proactive about anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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