Film Breakdown: RG3 vs Cousins vs McCoy (400+ GIFs)

[justice98]

I think way too much is made of the whole "relationship" issue. If Griffin picks up his game and plays well there won't be an issue. If he still struggles to run a pro offense, the "relationship" will suffer.

 

At this point I give Kirk a slight edge in "probability to improve" simply because Griffin has looked like a guy who doesn't exactly have a Payton Manning work ethic. I can't come to any other conclusion for a guy who in his third year struggled with how many steps to drop back or when to throw the ball away and avoid the sack. I'm sorry, but to me he looks like a guy who thinks his physical gifts are all he needs and that **** doesn't work for QBs. I hope I'm wrong because Robert *does* have the bigger upside. It's up to him whether he succeeds or not.

 

I'm with you, all we heard about Griffin coming out was how smart he was.  And a lot of his problems are basic things that you would think he'd have a better grasp on by now.  You'd think he'd study his behind off and be better at the mental side of the position.  But he literally looks like he has no clue what he's supposed to do sometimes.  And 4 years in and the rap on you is you STILL need to watch more film and put in more of that mental work, that's alarming to say the least.  Remember him and Shanahan talking about all the mental reps he got when he was rehabbing?  

 

Also I think Kirk has less distance to travel.   I feel like his issues to fix are easier and less numerous than Griffin's.  Like I don't know how a guy develops pocket presence if he doesn't already have it, for instance. 

[Hooper]

 

Also I think Kirk has less distance to travel.   I feel like his issues to fix are easier and less numerous than Griffin's. 

This. So this. It's why I think Kirk has a much better chance at being the starter opening day than most.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

This. So this. It's why I think Kirk has a much better chance at being the starter opening day than most.

 

That is what I believe too. Take driving a taxi (before Uber and Navigation) as an example...

 

Person A knows how to get everywhere, is a great driver, doesn't speed/but gets you to your destination in a timely manner, and usually does a great job of taking the correct route to avoid traffic based on time of day, etc. However, when he takes the wrong route based on traffic, it's sometimes a disaster and he ends up costing you an hour. 

 

Person B doesn't always know where to go and has to pull off on the side of the road to look a map. He drives fine and doesn't break any laws/but misses opportunities to complete the route efficiently (he's hesitant switching lanes, doesn't always get through lights, sometimes misses turns). However, he doesn't usually make the catastrophic decision that wastes an hour...mostly because he does what comes comfortably to him and takes the same way every time.

 

In those two scenarios, I think you have a much higher ceiling in the first guy, Person A. He just needs to make sure he learns from his mistakes and cut down on the number of times you're stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic on a bridge. To me, that's much more likely than Person B developing all of those other skills.  

[Alexa]

Here's one from Hap, posted in the zoony bin, to feed one of the fires---this time it's the "Jay likes Kirk best" version

Looks like Kirk is serious about wanting to compete for the job. Jay Gruden had to know about this, or be in on it.

[Alexa]

Where are things w/ McCoy? If they wanted to resign him, wouldn't they already have given him a new deal before he hits the market?

[nick_sanchize]

This. So this. It's why I think Kirk has a much better chance at being the starter opening day than most.

if Kirks flaws are easier to fix,how come he didnt fix them and finish the rest of the season?

The Skins situation is one of picking the less of two evils,is what I feel

[Alexa]

It's really not though. Kirk could probably fetch us a fourth and I'm certain we could get the same thing for Robert if not more. It does neither any good to remain on the same team and continue this same toxic working environment. Pick the one you want to move on with and deal the other. The team gets a draft pick and we rid ourselves of this distraction.

I've not heard one report that there's friction between Griffin and Cousins. They have a working relationship. I'm sure Cousins is sick of being Griffin's backup,  and from what we've heard, Griffin is a little insecure about Cousins. Credit to both of them that they keep it professional.

[skins island connection]

It will be very interesting this year at training camp.

 

Yes, there will be a fierce QB battle going on, and as most have said, may the best man win.

 

But here's where it could possibly get muddy, or at least murky.

Griffin and Cousins have different styles of play; regardless of who is named the starter, the other 10 guys on offense will be working with that particular QB's style. IF, the starting QB goes down, the other will naturally step in, and the dynamic of the offense will change, and most likely slow down until familiarity sets in with the rest of the offense.

 

This is where Gruden has to either cross-train the QBs or design/run plays which both can operate. The playbook cannot be lopsided one way or another, it has to be adaptable so if one goes down, the other can step in and hopefully not miss a beat.

 

It could come down to wither Griffin being developed into more of a pocket passer or Cousins learning/running more RO. Either way it will be a headache for Gruden.

[Jumbo]

I could stick this in a couple places, but it's fine here---it's just a couple minutes, and it's only Larry Michaels, but I think still it's worth seeing Jay speak at almost any opportunity.

 

The football things I think folks here would note that's said in that 2 minutes of coach talk (sincere, IMO, but still general coach talk) is what many already have heard him say or figured on our own---that he did indeed struggle trying to do too much, particularly in not having the hands-on QB time he imagined (and that he maybe wore Sean a bit thin, too, in workload) and he mentions the importance of Matt C and the help it should be for Kirk & Robert, but no mention of Colt for those who like to read into things.

 

http://www.csnwashington.com/redskinsblog/gruden-what-he-learned-his-1st-year-redskins-head-coach

[MartinC]

This. So this. It's why I think Kirk has a much better chance at being the starter opening day than most.

Late response to this but I totally disagree.

My 2cents are that RGIIIs problems are mechanical and lack of experience in a rythym timing based offense. Kirks issues are mental. My experience is that mechanical issues are much more easily fixable than mental issues.

Now there are no absolutes here, it may be that the light goes on for Kirk in terms of handling pressure situations and/or RGIII just can't or won't fix his mechanical issues. Far more likely is neither get 'it'. But right now I'd put my money on RGIII if I had to pick one or the other.

If I was Scott though I'd be watching the cuts hoping Bradford gets let go by the Rams and bringing him in. Much better system fit here than RGIII IMO but the guy just can't stay healthy.

[mistertim]

Late response to this but I totally disagree.

My 2cents are that RGIIIs problems are mechanical and lack of experience in a rythym timing based offense. Kirks issues are mental. My experience is that mechanical issues are much more easily fixable than mental issues.

Now there are no absolutes here, it may be that the light goes on for Kirk in terms of handling pressure situations and/or RGIII just can't or won't fix his mechanical issues. Far more likely is neither get 'it'. But right now I'd put my money on RGIII if I had to pick one or the other.

If I was Scott though I'd be watching the cuts hoping Bradford gets let go by the Rams and bringing him in. Much better system fit here than RGIII IMO but the guy just can't stay healthy.

I've been thinking the same thing. The issue with Kirk is that as soon as he makes a mistake it seems to completely get into his head and that's when the dominoes start to fall and things go downhill fast. From my understanding this sort of stuff is something that was a knock on him from his college days as well. It really is hard to fix that. Watch his body language after he turns the ball over. Sometimes he will literally hang his head all the way to the sideline. After one of the turnovers against the Giants (wasn't the last one...2nd I think) the camera went to him and he just looked completely defeated and lost. Gave a huge sigh, shoulders slumped, head down and just stood there for a few seconds. I saw that and I thought to myself "he's done...this is only going to get worse".

[MartinC]

I've been thinking the same thing. The issue with Kirk is that as soon as he makes a mistake it seems to completely get into his head and that's when the dominoes start to fall and things go downhill fast.

It's not just turnovers it's obvious passing situations or when the game falls on Kirks shoulders. His stats in the second half of games are much worse than the first half. His stats on 3rd and passing downs are awful.

[darrelgreenie]

Martin-

Do you have Kirk's 3rd down passing stats?

Griffin's too?

[MartinC]

Martin-

Do you have Kirk's 3rd down passing stats?Griffin's too?

Here you go. They were both pretty terrible on 3rd and 9 plus (I think that's where our issues with pass pro really show up), but RGIII was significantly better on 3rd and 3-8.

Kirk

3rd (or 4th) down and 3-8 yards to go 17 28 157 60.7 5.61. 86 0 2 0 46.3

3rd (or 4th) down and 9+ yards to go 7 19 38 36.8 2.00. 28 0 1 4 23.4

Robert

3rd (or 4th) down and 3-8 yards to go 18 29 274 62.1 9.45. 70. 1 1 7 90.3

3rd (or 4th) down and 9+ yards to go 12 23 91 52.2 3.96. 62 0 2 4 25.8

[LaRonDontLikeUgly]

It's not just turnovers it's obvious passing situations or when the game falls on Kirks shoulders. His stats in the second half of games are much worse than the first half. His stats on 3rd and passing downs are awful.

 Agreed-- all season I joked with my friends:  Start Kirk in first half, RG3 in second half (he started most games pretty slowly) and all of a sudden we look like a playoff team!

[mistertim]

 Agreed-- all season I joked with my friends:  Start Kirk in first half, RG3 in second half (he started most games pretty slowly) and all of a sudden we look like a playoff team!

Yeah I was just looking at the splits on espn as well and noticed that. There was an absolutely glaring difference between Kirk's 1st and 2nd quarter stats and his 3rd and 4th quarter. 

[Mad Mike]

I just want to add... I don't think Robert does not work hard. I just think he spends too much of his time working out rather than perfecting the art of being a QB.

[MartinC]

I just want to add... I don't think Robert does not work hard. I just think he spends too much of his time working out rather than perfecting the art of being a QB.

If true that's a failure of coaching as much or more than RGIII. Every situation I've been in or seen the coaches set out the training and study programme for players and monitor adherence and performance on that programme (including tests on the mental side). I grant you it's become harder for coaches to control during the offseason though under the new CBA with the bar on contact with coaches.

[Epochalypse]

If true that's a failure of coaching as much or more than RGIII. Every situation I've been in or seen the coaches set out the training and study programme for players and monitor adherence and performance on that programme (including tests on the mental side). I grant you it's become harder for coaches to control during the offseason though under the new CBA with the bar on contact with coaches.

Just a hypothetical.

 

If a coach was to tell his QB he needs to do X more and less of Y and the QB doesn't follow through.  What course of action would the coach have?

 

Bench him maybe?

 

Hmm.

[MartinC]

Just a hypothetical.

 

If a coach was to tell his QB he needs to do X more and less of Y and the QB doesn't follow through.  What course of action would the coach have?

 

Bench him maybe?

 

Hmm.

Yep. Then cut him....or let his contract run out rather than extend him.

[skins island connection]

 Actually both QBs have good and bad qualities; an arguement could be made either way by any one particular stat, which is not a fair assessment.

 But something has to give this year; if Griffin is the starter, then he absolutely HAS to play better and stop the bad habits. He's the one drafted #2 overall, with all the hype and hoopla, he has to step up his game. Not saying Cousins should be the starter, but blaming everyone and everything else is getting old.

 

 This same crap went on with Campbell, excuses after excuses, until there were no more, and people started to realize it wasn't so much the rest of the team as it was Campbell.

[gortiz]

 Actually both QBs have good and bad qualities; an arguement could be made either way by any one particular stat, which is not a fair assessment.

 But something has to give this year; if Griffin is the starter, then he absolutely HAS to play better and stop the bad habits. He's the one drafted #2 overall, with all the hype and hoopla, he has to step up his game. Not saying Cousins should be the starter, but blaming everyone and everything else is getting old.

 

 This same crap went on with Campbell, excuses after excuses, until there were no more, and people started to realize it wasn't so much the rest of the team as it was Campbell.

 

well said. 

 

Even to some of the wannabe "QB coaches" here on ES (me being one!) , Robert's issues are so, so glaring and simplistic.  They are black and white really. 

 

And, and, as a very staunch Robert supporter, his off field BS (starting with Gatorade doc all the way through to the social media argument)  is getting old to and I'm tired of making excuses for them as well.   i use to say, not a big deal, well it is.

 

2012 or bust, he has to play as well as 2012 in 2015 or it's over man. 

[gortiz]

I just want to add... I don't think Robert does not work hard. I just think he spends too much of his time working out rather than perfecting the art of being a QB.

 

Man, this might be the third time i posted this, and it's getting annoying  I think, but just to further back up your point.  Does Robert want to be like this guy? Does he really, really want to be like this guy?

 

The Education of a Quarterback

Between Rodgers’s second and third seasons, Quarterback School consisted of 10 hours in the film room and 3 hours on the practice field a week, an offensive study conducted in “painstaking detail,” Clements said

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/03/sports/football/the-education-of-the-packers-aaron-rodgers.html?pagewanted=all

 

[ILikeBilly]

The Education of a Quarterback

Between Rodgers’s second and third seasons, Quarterback School consisted of 10 hours in the film room and 3 hours on the practice field a week, an offensive study conducted in “painstaking detail,” Clements said

 

I'm completely guessing, but I would bet a good amount that Robert easily spends more than 10 hours a week in the film room.  Seems to me that Rodger's was only "working" 13 hours a week during the off season. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Just a hypothetical.

 

If a coach was to tell his QB he needs to do X more and less of Y and the QB doesn't follow through.  What course of action would the coach have?

 

Bench him maybe?

 

Hmm.

 

Or name him the #1 QB going into the season. Either one.

Man, this might be the third time i posted this, and it's getting annoying  I think, but just to further back up your point.  Does Robert want to be like this guy? Does he really, really want to be like this guy?

 

How many hours a week does/did Griffin spend in the film room?