NoCalMike Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 I agree that the biggest issue I see with Robert's "game" is that he doesn't seem to feel comfortable with throwing to spots on the field as opposed to an actual WR/TE/RB that is in the spot. It's not that he can't read a defense, because a lot of the times he throws to the correct spot, but it is just too late. He needs to get more confident that once a defender tips himself, that he can throw/deliver the ball tot he vacant space on the field, and the WR's are going to go out there and get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasRoane Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I agree that the biggest issue I see with Robert's "game" is that he doesn't seem to feel comfortable with throwing to spots on the field as opposed to an actual WR/TE/RB that is in the spot. It's not that he can't read a defense, because a lot of the times he throws to the correct spot, but it is just too late. He needs to get more confident that once a defender tips himself, that he can throw/deliver the ball tot he vacant space on the field, and the WR's are going to go out there and get it. I think part of that is because of his makeup as a person. He's always been an overachiever who rarely lets anyone down. He is scared to make a mistake. You see it after a interception. He just goes into a shell and doesn't want to let it go. Int's are part of the game. You don't want it to be Kirk Cousins vs Giants bad but you can't go to the other extreme and become John Beck who would rather take 10 sacks in a game than throw an interception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 According to google, RG3's wonderlic was 24 (IQ 108). Which is supposedly just average for a QB. My wonderlic score was 25...my IQ was tested at 141, though, twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I'm just chiming in late... Here is what I see on Griffin's All-2. Helluva post, amigo...*applause* Question: what do you (or anyone else, for that matter) think is the best way to get a QB to trust his WRs and that the play is going as it should? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airyx Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Helluva post, amigo...*applause* Question: what do you (or anyone else, for that matter) think is the best way to get a QB to trust his WRs and that the play is going as it should? The only way to improve it is with reps. Thousands of reps. Not playbook study, not conditioning....reps. He needs to get 14 guys together this summer and run 7 on 7 drills. It doesn't matter if its with his own receivers or not, he just needs to instinctively deliver the ball out of his drop. Oh, and he needs to choose the correct footwork too. He sometimes gets lazy, and just bounces his feet. In the WCO, the QBs footwork is just as important as the WR's route. They are timed to go together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Here is where Griffin has problems. Even when the read defender shows his key, Griffin almost always holds the ball until he can actually see that his receiver is open. That doesn't work in the NFL. He need to release the ball right out of his drop, knowing that the play is unfolding as designed and that the receiver will be open when both he, and the ball arrive at the spot. For whatever reason, Griffin doesn't trust his reads. First great post. I picked out this para because I think it IS the key to RGIIIs issues in a WCO timing based offense. He does not throw with anticipation well. He was not asked to do it in College and it was one of the questions posed by pre draft scouting reports - could he develop that ability in the NFL. A WCO passing offense - heck just about any NFL passing offense - is based around timing and throwing at the top of your drop, in rytyhm often before the reciever makes his break. You can find examples of RGIII doing this but too often he hesitates waiting for a reciever to show open. Fixing this is the key to fixing RGIII IMO. Fixing it is about reps. Thousands of them so that its just muscle memory - feet up - and something you can do without thinking aboiut it. In fact thinking about it becomes a barrier to execution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 The only way to improve it is with reps. Thousands of reps. Not playbook study, not conditioning....reps. He needs to get 14 guys together this summer and run 7 on 7 drills. It doesn't matter if its with his own receivers or not, he just needs to instinctively deliver the ball out of his drop. Oh, and he needs to choose the correct footwork too. He sometimes gets lazy, and just bounces his feet. In the WCO, the QBs footwork is just as important as the WR's route. They are timed to go together. In the Tampa game there were plays when he got to the top of his draft and he literally hopped about a foot in the air. Footwork and mechanics have eroded dramatically compared to his rookie season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PortisBetts Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Helluva post, amigo...*applause* Question: what do you (or anyone else, for that matter) think is the best way to get a QB to trust his WRs and that the play is going as it should? Practice and reps. Truly watching tape (Practice and game) and being able to take the constructive criticism from the film room to the field. I honestly don't see any other way around it. The coaches need to harp on it extremely heavily. Get on his case when he is late. Every. Single. Time. He needs it drilled into his head that when he reaches the top of his drop, it needs to be released barring something unforeseen. He does it in practice? Stop him and pull him out. Take him to the side and explain it to him and be consistent with pulling him out and explaining every single time he does it. We have a QB coach this year. This is his job. Someone has the time to pay attention every second to every drop you make and explain what you are doing wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Robert Griffin Experience Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Fixing this is the key to fixing RGIII IMO. Fixing it is about reps. Thousands of them so that its just muscle memory - feet up - and something you can do without thinking aboiut it. In fact thinking about it becomes a barrier to execution. Blame Shanahan imo. Shanahan realized they could steal some cheap wins to make Danny happy by just copypasting the Nevada (not even the Baylor) read option and riding RGIII's speed and natural playmaking to glory. What should have happened is have RGIII drop back 550-600 times his rookie year, throw a bunch of picks, get a muscle memory level feel for anticipation throwing (he did throw with anticipation sometimes in college, it just wasn't a consistent thing), and year 2 and year 3, you build on that. Robert Griffin III is just another example of this franchise's mismanagement of resources. Btw, both Cousins and RGIII tilt (if you don't know what tilt means, it's essentially a negative mental state that affects decision making, it's a poker term but nowadays it's a common term in the e-sport League of Legends) really really really REALLY easily (in different ways). I am convinced that both of our QBs have been on major tilt since 2013 at the earliest (McCoy doesn't really have the tilting problem, he's just not as talented). Cousins goes on tilt and forces things leading to 4 INT disasters, RGIII goes on tilt and becomes really indecisive. A lot of RGIII's issues in the locker room are probably a product of tilt (and a lot of that is produced by the dysfunctionality of the franchise) causing him to get frustrated or flustered and say things that get broken down by the media, which he takes personally putting him on more tilt. That instagram exchange is CLASSIC tilt imo. Btw, you know what throwing a billion picks his rookie year would have done? Gotten him used to making mistakes. Throwing a 4:1 TD ratio creates unrealistic expectations. Screwing up is a natural part of learning and the rookie year is the ideal place to screw up. screwing up years 2 and 3? Much more pressure. Part of RGIII's tilt issue is that he was a borderline MVP candidate year 1, then got worse, but people still expect the borderline year 1 candidate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epochalypse Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I don't think you can entirely blame Shanahan though. By most accounts Shanahan knows QBs and we've seen RG3 perform when trying to become a drop back passer; Shanahan saw that leading up to that rookie year. If RG3 came out of the gate looking like he has the past two years, without the benefit of his magical rookie season, what would we be saying about him by now? You can say the injury was a factor all you want but the guy has been injured the past two years not running the read option which suggests you can't entirely blame the read option. Does anything you've seen on these message boards suggest this fanbase would've waited this long for a multiyear project? One that cost as much as he did? I still think that if RG3 doesn't get hurt in the Seattle game we win that game and who knows how far we go. The Ravens won it all and we beat them that season. I have to think winning it all would trump slowly developing a player, because winning it all is what matters. Shanahan certainly had his faults, but using RG3's gifts to get us to the playoffs when all evidence suggests that was all he was capable of at the time, and all recent evidence suggests that he is still not capable of doing otherwise, is in my mind adjusting to your player's strengths. Isn't that what everyone's saying a coach should do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Robert Griffin Experience Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 By most accounts Shanahan knows QBs and we've seen RG3 perform when trying to become a drop back passer; Shanahan saw that leading up to that rookie year. Shanahan's one job in 2012 was to develop the franchise QB he spent multiple first round picks to draft. He basically looked at said QB, realized that he wouldn't be able to win games immediately by doing it the right way who's virtually a clone of another QB he developed into a superstar, and said "**** it we'll run him into the ground". Now we're in year 3 and instead of having a RGIII that's comfortable and confident in the WCO who's using his athleticism and arm talent to make passing plays all around the field. We don't have that, because Shanahan took the easy way out with the read option. If RG3 came out of the gate looking like he has the past two years, without the benefit of his magical rookie season, what would we be saying about him by now? The rookie year has worked against him. Imagine if his rookie year looked like this year and his second year looked like his ACTUAL second year? We'd be celebrating. We'd be a bit disappointed that he wasn't as good as Luck just yet but we'd be optimistic because we'd be seeing clear improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I don't think there is anything "wrong" with Griffin or any "blame" that needs to be assigned. Transitioning from a non-prostyle offense into a rhythm drop back passer is a process. The process happens in stages and every QB is different. Some QBs played in a pro-style system that is based on NFL passing concepts in the rhythm drop back passing game others play some played in spread offenses with NFL passing concepts some played in wide open spread-zone with minimal NFL passing concepts. But the difference with QBs like Griffin is the ability to be highly productive during that process IF the design of the offense uses read-option and other concepts that incorporate athleticism into the offense by design as opposed to merely based on the QBs improvisation. I believe that was Mike's plan to build and offense that could be highly productive while Griffin was groomed as a rhythm drop back passer. The current plan seems to more focused on emersion into the drop back passing game, and the coaching aspect seems very impatient. I think Griffin can definitely master the rhythm drop back passing game. One thing people forget in the discussion about Griffin in regards to "pocket passing" compared to Cousins or in general is that in "pure pocket" situations i.e. 3rd downs he's not bad at all he's average and for a kid this early in the process and considering the circumstance average is good. One the other hand you have Kirk played in pro-style rhythm drop back passing offense was poor or 3rd downs. I am curious what their 3rd downs breakdowns are this year. But, yeah I agree that Griffin is currently in the process; I'm just surprised that it seems people are surprised that he's going through an actual process that takes reps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsluggo Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 people STILL tend to forget that Steve Young basically flamed out in Tampa Bay .... Young signed with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in 1985 after being the first player selected in the 1984 NFL Supplemental Draft of USFL and CFL Players. However, the Buccaneers posted 2–14 records in each of Young's two seasons with them, and Young's record as starter was 3–16. In his 19 games, he threw for only 11 touchdowns with 21 interceptions while completing fewer than 55% of his passes. Although his time in Tampa Bay was miserable, San Francisco 49ers coach Bill Walsh was impressed by Young's natural abilities and felt that his problems were due to the struggling Bucs organization. Trade to the San Francisco 49ers[edit]The Buccaneers selected University of Miami quarterback Vinny Testaverde first overall in the 1987 NFL Draft because Young was deemed a bust. Young was traded to the San Francisco 49ers on April 24, 1987 to serve as a backup to Joe Montana. The Buccaneers received 2nd and 4th round draft picks in the trade, which they used to draft Miami linebacker Winston Moss, and Arizona State wide receiver Bruce Hill, respectively. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Young the transition to the NFL can be cruel.. particularly when you are trying to transition into a crappy organization in perpetual disarray. I'm still hopeful that this young man can get this **** together. (although... getting traded to the modern equivalent of the 49ers, to slowly learn the trade under a Bill Walsh, behind a Joe Montana.... couldn't hurt) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epochalypse Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 (although... getting traded to the modern equivalent of the 49ers, to slowly learn the trade under a Bill Walsh, behind a Joe Montana.... couldn't hurt) We've got Jay Gruden and Colt McCoy...so like they're similar situations, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsluggo Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 exactamundo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooper Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I think it's very hard to learn to anticipate receivers getting open instead of waiting for receivers to get open. For a QB to learn on the job in the current NFL, where patience is never allowed and the game is so much faster than the college game they thrived in, it's so damn hard, practically impossible. On the bright side, it's the same reason Mariota will be available at 5. Tradebait, baby! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 so far, the only benchmark we seem to be able to come up with is Steve Young. Occasional Rich Gannon mention I watch a lot of football. Quarterbacks are who they are by year 3. Hard truth for the big egos on Twitter and here. Therefore it must be Jays fault or it must be that we don't have a qb coach. Let's run with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Quarterbacks in stable situations sans injury and scheme change, sure 3 years/36 starts is a typically a good barometer. Whether or not Jay has helped/hurt the development of Griffin and Kirk imo is a valid discussion as is whether or not having QB coach helped/hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Probos Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Very cool link -- will check out later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasRoane Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 so far, the only benchmark we seem to be able to come up with is Steve Young. Occasional Rich Gannon mention I watch a lot of football. Quarterbacks are who they are by year 3. Hard truth for the big egos on Twitter and here. Therefore it must be Jays fault or it must be that we don't have a qb coach. Let's run with that. What this comes down to is how hard is Robert willing to study and change his game? Steve Young realized that he was not going to last long in the NFL if he didn't watch film, learn defenses inside and out, and change his instincts (through an insane amount of reps) from bailing to working the pocket until he could scan his options. Then, trust! You have to trust the receiver will be where he is supposed to be and let it rip. Mistakes will be made and you can't play error free in the NFL if you want to graduate to the ranks of the elite. You have to take chances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 What this comes down to is how hard is Robert willing to study and change his game? Steve Young realized that he was not going to last long in the NFL if he didn't watch film, learn defenses inside and out, and change his instincts (through an insane amount of reps) from bailing to working the pocket until he could scan his options. Then, trust! You have to trust the receiver will be where he is supposed to be and let it rip. Mistakes will be made and you can't play error free in the NFL if you want to graduate to the ranks of the elite. You have to take chances. Yeah but Steve Young had the advantage of being able to learn to play the WCO from Bill Walsh sitting on the bench watching Joe Montana. Pressure was off and he was given time to develop. He was also on a team used to winning with a strong culture to support success. RGIII is right in the spotlight and has Jay Gruden developing him and has Colt McCoy as the 'veteran' QB. He's also a Redskin on a team that's lost for a LONG time now and with the dysfunctional culture that perpetuates that losing. I'd say Steve Young had the better situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasRoane Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Yeah but Steve Young had the advantage of being able to learn to play the WCO from Bill Walsh sitting on the bench watching Joe Montana. Pressure was off and he was given time to develop. He was also on a team used to winning with a strong culture to support success. RGIII is right in the spotlight and has Jay Gruden developing him and has Colt McCoy as the 'veteran' QB. He's also a Redskin on a team that's lost for a LONG time now and with the dysfunctional culture that perpetuates that losing. I'd say Steve Young had the better situation. Oh I absolutely, emphatically agree with you. I've been saying for a while now that colleges are doing a lousy job of developing NFL QBs. Of course that's not their job. Their job is to win by whatever means they have available to them. Even this years crop of QB's will struggle if rushed on to the field. Winston has the best chance for success but even he should be expected to struggle. With the state of QBs being what they are the smart bet is to build a solid team and then get your QB. If possible, let him learn on the sidelines for a while like Steve Young, A-aron Rodgers, Mark Rypien, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWFLSkins Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Yeah, I just thought it was interesting since it lays them out from one perspective. It looks like serious work was put into it. Some of Cousins throws were just incredible... watch some of his deep ball accuracy throws in 1b. I think it adds to the point of an open competition here next year. There is not an automatic starter here right now, let the games begin, best man win. Should help all involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Tanget on Open Comp: Open comp will be interesting although its nearly impossible to have it with 3 QBs. Young QBs rarely have to 'win' their jobs because most journeyman can easily beat out a rookie or young QB even if the young QB is more talented. I would bet a healthy McCoy wins a true open competition. This offseason will be huge for Griffin in terms of closing the gap with Kirk as a rhythm drop back passer. I think Griff can beat Kirk out if he closes the gap in terms of experience in Jays style of offense. But even if Griffin wins the job imho we are still faced with an awkward dynamic with Jay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FXMASTER Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Tanget on Open Comp: Open comp will be interesting although its nearly impossible to have it with 3 QBs. Young QBs rarely have to 'win' their jobs because most journeyman can easily beat out a rookie or young QB even if the young QB is more talented. I would bet a healthy McCoy wins a true open competition. This will be the first time in his pro carreer where he will be looking at the same playbook for the second year. I completly agree that if the competition is open he will win it..in camp. I dont even think it will be close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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