darrelgreenie Posted August 28, 2014 Author Share Posted August 28, 2014 A pocket passer is a QB who gets rid of the ball quickly and makes subtitle moves within the pocket to create additional time to find an open receiver. When a pocket passer will generally throw the ball away when under duress or all when passing options are covered. A mobile QB relies on extended movements, particularly outside the pocket, to extend passing plays. A mobile QB will run for yardage if under duress or when all passing options are covered. Can a QB be both? Aaron Rodgers and Rothlisberger etc. do not throw the ball quickly they tend to hold the ball and extend plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Last season, with a limited threat to run, his best quarter statistically by some margin was the second quarter. RGIII threw for almost as many yards and TDs in the first half of games last year as the second half. . Good God man did you watch any of the games last season? . Every football analyst in North America is incorrect. Dude from England figures out that RGIII is in fact a deadly pocket passer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Good God man did you watch any of the games last season? . Every football analyst in North America is incorrect. Dude from England figures out that RGIII is in fact a deadly pocket passer. Where in my post did I say RGIII is a deadly pocket passer? You said RGIII padded his stats in the second half of games last year. Thats factually incorrect - the splits show the 2nd quarter was his best and that there was very little difference in terms of yardage and TD production between the first half and second half. Those are facts - how to interpret those statistics is obviously open to debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dballer Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Can a QB be both? Aaron Rodgers and Rothlisberger etc. do not throw the ball quickly they tend to hold the ball and extend plays. I was going to bring up Aaron Rodgers. I think he is a perfect example of what Griffin ought to strive to be. I think everyone would agree Rodgers is one of the 3 best QBs in the game. I'd argue the best. Griffin will probably never be as accurate as Rodgers, no one on the field today, other than Brees, is going to be on that level. I am sure many would consider him a "pocket passer". He can certainly kill you from a clean pocket, no doubt. But if you watch Rodgers a lot (I have had him as my keeper in my Fantasy league for 5 years now), he spends more time outside of a traditional pocket than in it. And when he really kills you is when he extends a play, using his speed to run sideline to sideline to buy time. He will also pick up huge chunks on the ground if they leave a lane to run (normally that lane he sees is one that leads out of bounds, you don't see him taking many hits on scrambles). Griffin has some similar traits to Rodgers, Big arm with a nice deep ball, great mobility (obviously Griffin's would be considered something greater than great), can get the ball out quickly, same size, and after RG3s rookie year you would have said great at taking care of the ball. They both have suffered from having bad pass blocking offensive lines. Rodgers is elite running bootlegs and on broken plays. I feel like that is in Robert's wheelhouse as well. We all know Rodgers had 3 years to learn while on the bench, studying defenses, routes, receivers...where as Griffin has been trial by really hot fire. Once he can read the defense and anticipate the route opening up he will look much better in the pocket. From there you can add in all of the natural ability he already has and all the things he is already really good at and he will be elite. Just have to give him time, and surrounding him with the weapons he now has should allow him to succeed enough to buy that time. I will say, Rodgers has had his fair share of injuries as well. He hasn't missed a ton of games, other that the 7 or 8 he missed last year, but he has had 3 or 4 concussions, some ankle stuff, some hamstring stuff, ribs, calves...It is the price you pay for having a QB that extends plays and uses his feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Maybe because our team was so bad to start games, the 2nd quarter was like most teams <already blown out> 4th quarters. It was the time Kyle would out of desperation turn to hurry up, which speaks volumes to how much we were behind early since they didn't even practice it, and even more so, because he clearly abhorred it. Why limit just looking at Roberts stats by quarter; look at net points by quarter; opposition minus ours / per game, to verify if we were blown out early and often, facing prevent by the end of the first. My theory, a few monster 2nds by RG3 in blowouts early in the year skewed the stats. Commonly Used Definition: Pocket Passer n. An immobile NFL Quarterback I think stats documenting time and space in the pocket, should be considered when grading QBs. And thanks to DG creating the thread. So many arguments are had yet without a baseline, a simple definition of which is being discussed. And, without knowing posters expectations. Some expect a bowl this year; others have a 5 year patience plan for Robert to put it all together. 2 buttheads posters butt heads arguing over his development, will never agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 I don't think Griffin climbs the pocket well. He seems to hit the top of his drop and get stuck. If he has to move forward, I think he panics a bit and looks to take off instead of reloading, stepping up, and letting it fly. My idea of a pocket passer is a guy who can climb the pocket, step into a throw, throw it with accuracy, all while knowing he's getting ready to get drilled. First, thank you greenie for your OP. As always, your OPs are well thought out and at least make me think a little. This one I even agree with :-) I think as Alvin starts to allude to is when they say "RGIII isn't a good pocket passer", oddly enough I think they mean when it breaks down, he rarely seems to be looking down field for a receiver anymore. To me, that is one of the biggest differences in 2012 and last yr and so far this yr. In 2012 when the pocket started to break down, he would move around sometimes into the pocket, sometimes to the side and reset, but either way was always looking down the field for a receiver, especially during the 7 gm win streak when his runs/gm went from almost 10 in the 1st half of the season, to 6 the second half. In 2013 and so far this year, when the pocket starts to break down, he is rarely looking down field. Also, outside of not sliding, my next biggest concern for him is that he will never, and I repeat never just throw the ball away. You see Peyton, Brady, Bree's Eli, and many others get outside the tackles and just throw the ball away. I rarely if even see RGIII do that. In the end I do agree with you that his lack of ability in the pocket is highly exaggerated. But there are a few things he needs to start doing to preserve himself and to help the team get better. get back to looking downfield more when the pocket comes apart and leanr to both slide and throw the ball away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Maybe because our team was so bad to start games, the 2nd quarter was like most teams <already blown out> 4th quarters. It was the time Kyle would out of desperation turn to hurry up, which speaks volumes to how much we were behind early since they didn't even practice it, and even more so, because he clearly abhorred it. Why limit just looking at Roberts stats by quarter; look at net points by quarter opposition minus ours / per game, to verify if we were blown out early and often, facing prevent by the end of the first. My theory, a few monster 2nds by RG3 in blowouts skewed the stats. Commonly Used Definition: Pocket Passer n. An immobile NFL Quarterback I think stats documenting time and space in the pocket, should be considered when grading QBs. This is the best I can find in terms of passing stats versus how far up/down (and lets face it was mainly down) we were. These numbers don't tell us if we went well down and then came back to make it look close at the end (first Eagles game for example comes to mind) but I will say that I have watched all the games from last year some multiple times (I am that sad) and teams don't start playing prevent on us in the second quarter. For what its worth these stats show RGIII was better in close games than blow outs - most of his stats also came in games were the final margin was a TD or less. Of course the fact he was not as good in the blow outs might be part of why they WERE blowouts ... BY VICTORY MARGIN ATT COMP PCT YDS YDS/A YDS/G LONG TD TD% INT INT% SACK YDSL RATE Final Margin 0-7 310 201 64.8 2185 7.5 273.1 62 12 3.9 8 2.6 16 125 89.3 Final Margin 8-14 115 54 47.0 613 5.7 204.3 62 3 2.6 3 2.6 8 47 63.0 Final Margin 15+ 186 100 53.8 953 5.8 190.6 44 5 2.7 8 4.3 19 134 62.3 Edit. Just realised these are the total stats for the season so they include the 3 games Kirk started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexa Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 A pocket passer is someone that can read the defense, stand tall and deliver the ball w/ accuracy. I love watching Brady play because he's in total command. He's a natural at. It's not that Griffin is terrible at it, he's just not good at it....yet. You can tell by watching him that it doesn't come naturally to him. He's rarely been under center and actually taken a drop and passed the ball. His stats are misleading because several times last year the offense would go an entire half, not score and get first downs, then the defense would play prevent. There were other times where he was just bad. Also he fumbles too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Projectile flatulence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 This is the best I can find in terms of passing stats versus how far up/down (and lets face it was mainly down) we were.... Its hard to gauge just passing stats when down big, because I feel a team that is down big by the 2nd quarter, just throws in the towel, licks their wounds, and just runs the ball. Keeps the clock ticking to get the hell outta dodge, doesn't expose the QB to the inevitable teeing off on him by linemen; and live to play another day. Sometimes, running the ball is exactly what the defense gives you, and it is successful, and it spurs a comeback win. Hilarious how that happens. For the year, we averaged... i am sorry but I am laughing as I type this... 2.9 points per first quarter (shout out and a big thanks to DHall and Amerson for those). I looked at those first few games just to see if it told anything. Not much relevant to your point, but I do think the early game blowouts, early in the year, set the tone for the entire year. By Halftime: Philly was up 26-7, GB was up 24-0. Oakland we were down 14 at the end of the 1st. That's all I got stat wise and not much to see there, but man oh man is that 2.9 just a disgrace, even worse knowing they are likely half defensive points. I am surprised Kyle has a job. That is the OCs first test every week, that first quarter. Can you imagine practicing the game plan all week, and those are the results! Demoralizing to say the least. I don't see how OCs can fail like that all year and get a job the next year like nothing happened. #LivingOffTheName Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gortiz Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Perhaps "pocket passer" is partially equated to someone who looks comfortable in the pocket? I know many have argued that Griffin doesn't look comfortable in the pocket. Of course Gabbert (the few times I have watched him) looked anything but comfortable in the pocket, but perhaps it's not mentioned (his ability as a pocket passer) because he's often labeled as, well... terrible, which could include "uncomfortable in the pocket". Great post DG ... You know, I would typically agree with you, but no one looks more manic than Peyton ... you ever see him? He looks like he's standing on hot coals. But I hear you, Rogers looks like he's ice skating, Russell Wilson looks like he's on rails ... just great body control. I would say my definition of a pocket passer is Big Ben, I know sounds weird, but he has such a feel and command of the pocket, with his eyes ALWAYS down field, it's nuts. He owns the pocket. All hell is breaking loose and the guy just stands tall and delivers, or he slides, stiff arms, shakes off a guy, stands tall, resets, and delivers, all while staying in the pocket, or at least in the vicinity. Robert can't do that yet consistently ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinny21 Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 I wonder if Robert's speed/running ability muddy his decision making at times. When he gets outside the pocket, I think he's looking both for an open man, and running lanes. The slower qbs don't tend to get outside the pocket as much, and when they do they tend to throw the ball away. I'm guessing that's because they know they lack the speed to get outside, reset and find a receiver as well as lacking (to some degree) the ability to scramble for positive yards. The elusive qbs (Romo and Bree's for example) are able to reset outside the pocket, but know they lack the speed to do much when they tuck the ball and run. So their priority is getting outside the pocket and either finding a man or throwing the ball away. Griffin tends to get outside, look for a man and then run if no one's open. Hence his seeming refusal to throw the ball away. Of course there's something else there as well since he has stepped out of bounds for a loss instead of throwing it away, so maybe I'm full of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airyx Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Are you saying that Coryell style passing game determines whether a QB is a 'pocket passer' or not? No, I'm not. I'm saying that the general football watching public's image of a "pocket passer" is a guy that does a lot of Air Coryell. Manning, Brady, etc. There are clearly people that run a WCO who are considered to be pocket passers. Aaron Rogers, and that guy that played for Seattle, and who's brother was on the 'skins for awhile... for example. I'm not saying that all Air Coryell concepts are deep (although that is the overriding philosphy....look for the big play first). I'm not saying that all WCO concepts are short (although that is the overriding philosphy...ball control via high percentage passes...to use Bill's phrase..."an extended hand-off". Every concept has parts of all the others anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 This is really sort of an academic exercise, but I see where DG is coming from. Going back through history, there have been successful passers who have traditionally stayed more in the pocket, and there have been guys who have been more comfortable out of the pocked. I personally don't like to qualify a QB whether they are a pocket passer or something else. Ultimately, a good QB can work from within the pocket, and can work well when vacating the pocket. To work within the pocket, it's generally quick decisions with where to go with the ball, and being able to "feel" pressure. Which, btw, is a little bit of a misnomer. When you say "feel" pressure, it's really having an extreme comfort level with the offense, and knowing where the weak spot in the protection is, how long it's going to take before that weakness is exposed, and being able to bail before that weakness is exposed. But guys who are very comfortable working from within the pocket know where the pressure is coming from, where they can slide in the pocket, and where all of their receivers are. Every good QB needs to be able to do this, and I think this is something that gets better with time and experience within an offense. The other side is getting out of the pocket. This is either because they still have the ball when the pocket breaks down and have to bail, or because of play design, they are rolled out of the pocket. Different guys are more comfortable throwing on the run than others. For me, what Robert needs to continue to develop is the knowledge of where everybody is in the offense, what the protection is, where he should have an opportunity to slide to in the pocket, and when he needs to just bail and get out of there. I think he's learning, and I think he does it well sometimes, and less well other times. But the only way to get better at that is to keep practicing it, doing it in games, and then seeing what happened, learning, and doing it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dc1 Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 A pocket passer is a QB who gets rid of the ball quickly and makes subtitle moves within the pocket to create additional time to find an open receiver. When a pocket passer will generally throw the ball away when under duress or all when passing options are covered. A mobile QB relies on extended movements, particularly outside the pocket, to extend passing plays. A mobile QB will run for yardage if under duress or when all passing options are covered. What was Steve Young? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skins island connection Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 I mentioned last year that it seems that Griffin has some difficulties seeing the field staying in the pocket; maybe it holds more water than first thought. But, there is a difference in running when you have to, and running when you want to; if his abilities to read the field are giving him problems, his instinct is to get out of the pocket, and of course 10 guys are running towards him which may give him urgency to take off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSSkinz Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 To me the stats dont mean much, look at Robert stand in the pocket and read the defense and ask yourself if he is a good pocket passer. In 2012 he threw quick strikes to his first read out of the read option so I'm sure his pocket passing stats look good. Now that we either can't or wont run that play he is having to be a pocket passer in a more traditional manner and this seems to be an issue for him. Throw out everything we have seen from Robert up until this moment because we are not using him the same way and he doesn't want to be used like he was back in 2012, its a reboot for Robert and we have to sit back and see how it goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dballer Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 I wonder if Robert's speed/running ability muddy his decision making at times. Without a doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aireskoi Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 First of all, there is a racial component of course that can't be denied. Black QBs that run well often get labeled as "non pocket passers." I don't think it's racist or overt; probably just a perpetuated stereotype... Sort of like saying all white WRs are "crafty" or great route runners without ever acknowledging their athletic skills. Putting that aside, I'd say the general "pocket passer" term is used to describe a QB that succeeds without any threat of the run and/or designed runs. It is undeniable that RG has had success throwing the ball from the pocket both in college and the NFL. I think the question people have is whether or not he can repeat that success moving forward without the threat of the designed run. I really think it's that simple. Steve "Air" McNair was a pocket passer, and I don't remember Doug Williams doing much throwing on the run. Steve Young had struggles from the pocket before he became better at it. I don't see the racial side of it really. It's a skill set thing, not a black thing. RG3 was getting the cleanest pocket I have ever seen when he was a run threat, then that same O'line became hot garbage as soon as he couldn't get the edge with speed. RG3 has never worked from a traditional drop back- read- throw type offense because he is so talented. Can't wait for real football so we can see him healthy and he can get back to HIS game. He was unstoppable... To me the stats dont mean much, look at Robert stand in the pocket and read the defense and ask yourself if he is a good pocket passer. In 2012 he threw quick strikes to his first read out of the read option so I'm sure his pocket passing stats look good. Now that we either can't or wont run that play he is having to be a pocket passer in a more traditional manner and this seems to be an issue for him. Throw out everything we have seen from Robert up until this moment because we are not using him the same way and he doesn't want to be used like he was back in 2012, its a reboot for Robert and we have to sit back and see how it goes. You must be looking at preseason, lol. I don't remember ANY read option in preseason 2012, so why should we expect to see it in 2014 preseason? We have not seen anything yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 OT.... what muddies a QB's decision making in the pocket? Some possible answers Confidence in his OL Frequency and Success of Blitzers DCs effectively masking coverages etc Press coverage against receivers the QB knows struggle against it How quickly the pocket collapses How much space is actually in the pocket / room to step into the throw # of reads asked to make by the coach Previous Injuries / Fear of Injuries / Deer in the headlights Syndrome Confidence Level in WR(s) Fearing an INT / Fearing a Grounding Knowing scrambling is a viable option Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenDavis Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 I think as Alvin starts to allude to is when they say "RGIII isn't a good pocket passer", oddly enough I think they mean when it breaks down, he rarely seems to be looking down field for a receiver anymore. To me, that is one of the biggest differences in 2012 and last yr and so far this yr. In 2012 when the pocket started to break down, he would move around sometimes into the pocket, sometimes to the side and reset, but either way was always looking down the field for a receiver, especially during the 7 gm win streak when his runs/gm went from almost 10 in the 1st half of the season, to 6 the second half. In 2013 and so far this year, when the pocket starts to break down, he is rarely looking down field. Also, outside of not sliding, my next biggest concern for him is that he will never, and I repeat never just throw the ball away. You see Peyton, Brady, Bree's Eli, and many others get outside the tackles and just throw the ball away. I rarely if even see RGIII do that. In the end I do agree with you that his lack of ability in the pocket is highly exaggerated. But there are a few things he needs to start doing to preserve himself and to help the team get better. get back to looking downfield more when the pocket comes apart and leanr to both slide and throw the ball away. I agree, in 2012 the football analysts raved about RGIII always keeping his eyes down field. I'm really hoping come week 1 he'll start doing that again. Maybe he's been sand bagging a bit!? It is just pre season so I won't be fully concerned until it's live and he fails to look down field, slide or throw ball away. I still go back to the injury. It has to still be messing with his mind some. He and everyone else knows if it were to be torn again it would be a huge blow to his career. But at this point if he doesn't start doing those things better it will also be a huge blow, so he needs to forget about his knee and just play football. It also doesn't help that he isn't running the zone read that he was so comfortable with. I hope Gruden still uses it on occasion to help get RGIII in a groove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brokenstriker Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 pretty sure it means someone who is good at staying in the pocket, "feeling" pressure, getting through all the progressions while in the pocket, and successful at completing passes from the pocket sure they all start in the pocket and they all complete passes from the pocket ... but some of them aren't particularly good at it and turn into a scrambling or running QB because they underachieve in the pocket ... not as an "additional" skill ... more like their only true skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 For me, what Robert needs to continue to develop is the knowledge of where everybody is in the offense, what the protection is, where he should have an opportunity to slide to in the pocket, and when he needs to just bail and get out of there. I think he's learning, and I think he does it well sometimes, and less well other times. But the only way to get better at that is to keep practicing it, doing it in games, and then seeing what happened, learning, and doing it again. Good post. This is exactly what I think RGIII is struggling so heavily with right now. It looks like he just has so many thoughts running through his head right now, that he's a little overwhelmed at times and not allowing his instincts to take over. But the more quality reps he gets, the more his knowledge will be ingrained into his instincts, and we will begin to see everything come together for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gholmesbm Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 I don't think Griffin climbs the pocket well. He seems to hit the top of his drop and get stuck. If he has to move forward, I think he panics a bit and looks to take off instead of reloading, stepping up, and letting it fly. I agree -although it probably hasn't helped that during his pro career to date, the "pockets" he has had have tended to be very weak in the middle, which limits your ability to step up. Our interior OL has not been effective in passpro in the last 2 years. I thought the same thing happened in Baltimore as well, and it gets him jittery very fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 OT.... what muddies a QB's decision making in the pocket? Some possible answers Confidence in his OL Frequency and Success of Blitzers DCs effectively masking coverages etc Press coverage against receivers the QB knows struggle against it How quickly the pocket collapses How much space is actually in the pocket / room to step into the throw # of reads asked to make by the coach Previous Injuries / Fear of Injuries / Deer in the headlights Syndrome Confidence Level in WR(s) Fearing an INT / Fearing a Grounding Knowing scrambling is a viable option Trusting (or a lack of trust in) his "new" mechanics "Thinking" too much instead of it being more instinctual Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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