POCKET PASSER:What does it mean?

[RandyHolt]

Trusting (or a lack of trust in) his "new" mechanics

"Thinking" too much instead of it being more instinctual

 

Good points - expanding a bit  on them

 

Footwork  

Ball positioning (Chicken Wings)

Timing / Counting steps or seconds

Proper Throwing Technique

Modifying the throw - adding touch (something I think I see Robert doing fairly often)

 

Fear of losing their job with the next INT / Looking over their shoulder

Remembering the play / all the routes the WRs will run

Physically seeing the play over the line and the DL clogging up the throwing lanes

High Snap Phobia

 

I guess we can see why a QB may be over thinking things.

[Voice_of_Reason]

I wonder if Robert's speed/running ability muddy his decision making at times. When he gets outside the pocket, I think he's looking both for an open man, and running lanes.

The slower qbs don't tend to get outside the pocket as much, and when they do they tend to throw the ball away. I'm guessing that's because they know they lack the speed to get outside, reset and find a receiver as well as lacking (to some degree) the ability to scramble for positive yards.

The elusive qbs (romoSUCKS and Bree's for example) are able to reset outside the pocket, but know they lack the speed to do much when they tuck the ball and run. So their priority is getting outside the pocket and either finding a man or throwing the ball away. Griffin tends to get outside, look for a man and then run if no one's open. Hence his seeming refusal to throw the ball away. Of course there's something else there as well since he has stepped out of bounds for a loss instead of throwing it away, so maybe I'm full of it.

Cooley also said it was a coaching point the last 2 years.  Kyle would say to Robert, "Look here, look there, if it's not there, run."  

 

Which also slows down the learning process.  

 

But yes, I think you're right, if you have the ability to just run away from people, and that's "easier" then why not take it?

[Voice_of_Reason]

Good post.  This is exactly what I think RGIII is struggling so heavily with right now.  It looks like he just has so many thoughts running through his head right now, that he's a little overwhelmed at times and not allowing his instincts to take over.  But the more quality reps he gets, the more his knowledge will be ingrained into his instincts, and we will begin to see everything come together for him.

The one thing I will say is I'm not sure he's struggling near as much as others.  I thought in the Cleveland game, he looked fine.  He bounced around the pocket and hit guys, including a really nice deep ball.  The big criticism after the Cleveland game was simply that he couldn't figure out how to protect himself.  

 

The Ravens game was bad all the way around, and he had a bad night.  But there were other things going on that contributed as well.  (2 OL picking their bum holes while the remaining 3 were trying to block 4 guys comes to mind...)

 

I think he's still thinking, instead of reacting, and that's going to get better with repetition.  That said, I don't really worry about him too much.  I think it's lots of to-do about nothing.  I'll get concerned when I see him goofing it up in the regular season.

[skinny21]

The one thing I will say is I'm not sure he's struggling near as much as others. I thought in the Cleveland game, he looked fine. He bounced around the pocket and hit guys, including a really nice deep ball. The big criticism after the Cleveland game was simply that he couldn't figure out how to protect himself.

The Ravens game was bad all the way around, and he had a bad night. But there were other things going on that contributed as well. (2 OL picking their bum holes while the remaining 3 were trying to block 4 guys comes to mind...)

I think he's still thinking, instead of reacting, and that's going to get better with repetition. That said, I don't really worry about him too much. I think it's lots of to-do about nothing. I'll get concerned when I see him goofing it up in the regular season.

The concerning thing is that the BAL game is the one with some degree of game planning. Think we're going to see teams play us similar to last year. If that's the case, we really need the center of the OL to hold up much better in pass pro and the last game showed us that could be a problem.

Dropping in coverage or stacking the box is sort of a pick your poison deal, so I expect to continue to see contain on the outside and pressure up the middle. Hoping Gruden sees this too and runs guys across the middle to try to hit where blitzing backers vacated.

If the team can make defenses second guess sending pressure up the middle (though many teams can do this just rushing 4) then I think it opens up our playbook/options. Which in turn should make the game a bit easier on Griffin.

Sorry for the redundancy and repeating myself but you get the idea.

[knighthonor]

My opinion it's just an American racial stereotype spoken in traditional code words. Running QB tend to mean Black QB with legs. Again note like the OP mentioned, that Codeword isn't used with white QB that are more of a runner.

Yeah but America and this forum hate talking about race and how it still effects our society in some ways more than others.

[Voice_of_Reason]

The concerning thing is that the BAL game is the one with some degree of game planning. Think we're going to see teams play us similar to last year. If that's the case, we really need the center of the OL to hold up much better in pass pro and the last game showed us that could be a problem.

Dropping in coverage or stacking the box is sort of a pick your poison deal, so I expect to continue to see contain on the outside and pressure up the middle. Hoping Gruden sees this too and runs guys across the middle to try to hit where blitzing backers vacated.

If the team can make defenses second guess sending pressure up the middle (though many teams can do this just rushing 4) then I think it opens up our playbook/options. Which in turn should make the game a bit easier on Griffin.

Sorry for the redundancy and repeating myself but you get the idea.

One thing I've heard the skins doing a lot of is running crossing routes underneath deep routes.

Didn't see a lot of that against the ravens.

I don't think that they showed much if anything.

I would have liked to have seen then execute better.

[skinny21]

One thing I've heard the skins doing a lot of is running crossing routes underneath deep routes.

Didn't see a lot of that against the ravens.

I don't think that they showed much if anything.

I would have liked to have seen then execute better.

Yeah, I'm more and more buying into the idea that the Bmore game was not an indication of what to expect offensively, but you're right about execution - that was pretty horrendous.

[Vilandil Tasardur]

Everyone wants to talk about which great QB Robert is most like or could be most like. Brady is a drop back passer but Cam is a non pocket passer and Aaron Rodgers falls somewhere in the middle. But let's call a spade a spade. 

 

Robert Griffin's game is MOST analogous to Tony Romo. I know, I know. None of us want to go there. We've all spent a decade making fun of Tony Romo for choking, for throwing hilarious picks, for goofing it. But search your feelings, you know it to be true.

 

They are guys who have WAY too much talent around them to just suck. They'll never be Blaine Gabbert, or Jimmy Clausen bad. There is just WAY too much talent at the receiver and running back positions for them to be consistently bad.

 

BUT, they just can't get out of there own way. They consistently make Houdini like plays when they break the pocket and use their speed. But in the pocket, they're inconsistent. They miss wide open guys; they're late on their throws, or worse, they just throw picks. They're perfectly capable of winning you games (even 8-12 games a year) if everything goes right and a couple of breaks go their way, given the amount of offensive talent.

 

But they aren't good enough, they aren't smart enough, they don't have an intricate enough understanding of how the game works, to win you 10+ games every year no matter what regardless of talent.

 

Last year, Brady and the Patriots went 12-4 and lost in the AFC championship. They did that despite having no running back break 800 yards and a list of receivers that consisted of Edleman, Amendola, half of a Gronkowski, Dobson and Thompkins. One of those guys broke 1000 yards and only 1 more broke 600.

 

Take away Dez Bryant and Miles Austin and Romo looks pedestrian. Take away Garcon and we'd all be crying about how the kid had no weapons these past two years. But year in and year out the best guys show that they can win with and without exceptional talent. And that's because they have a brilliant understanding of the defenses and what they can do from the pocket. Not because they are athletically superior.  

[darrelgreenie]

...He had a tremendous amount of success when throwing from the pocket running the RO play action fake, but without the threat of his legs that receiver streaking wide open across the middle of the field isn't there. Linebackers play back when there is no threat of a run...........Nevertheless, someone will be posting RGIII pocket stats in 3,2,1...

Yup.

I'm gonna post Griffin's NON-PLAY-ACTION stats because they apply directly to your comment above about the RO play action fake.

So let's remove not just RO play-action but ALL play-action and see what his pocket passing numbers are:

 

Griffin---2,222 yards--12 TDs/8 INTs/62% comp/75% acc/6.9 ypa/85 QB rating/ 2.2 PFF grade

 

Ultimately production matters. We can't ignore it or explain it away.

And the production suggest that Griffin is good from the pocket even without play-action.

[darrelgreenie]

Just for scuz/ frame of reference non-play action pocket passing stats of Luck and Tommy Brady:

 

Griffin---2,222 yards--12 TDs/8 INTs/62% comp/75% acc/6.9 ypa/85 QB rating/ 2.2 PFF grade

Luck-----3008 yards---19 TDs/9 INTs/61% comp/72% acc/6.4 ypa/86 QB rating/ 2.9 PFF grade

Brady----2816 yards---21 TDs/10 INTs/60% comp/74 acc/5.9 ypa/83 QB rating/ 5.5 PFF grade

 

https://pff-pffanalysisltd12.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/No-Play-Action.png

[ILikeBilly]

Griffin has been at his best when he's scrambling, improvising, in the second half of games where we are woefully behind, and off the PA fake. I've yet to see him pick apart a defense in the first half without the threat of his legs

Watch the Cowgirls Thanksgiving game in Robert's rookie year.  When you say "without the threat of his legs", you discount his entire rookie season.  Steve Young, Fran Tarkington and Romo all have the threat of their legs - should we not count any of the times they picked apart a defense? 

 

What about R. Wilson.  So far, he has been an awesome QB.  However, if you remove his ability to scramble around, you would be moving him into a group of very average QBs at best.

[codeorama]

When I say "pocket passer", I only mean that they are capable of reading defenses and making check downs as opposed to using only half the field (the vast majority of the time) or making one read then running.

Luck is a pocket passer, but he can run effectively. Young was a pocket passer later in his career but also could run effectively.

[darrelgreenie]

The one thing I will say is I'm not sure he's struggling near as much as others.  I thought in the Cleveland game, he looked fine.  He bounced around the pocket and hit guys, including a really nice deep ball.  The big criticism after the Cleveland game was simply that he couldn't figure out how to protect himself...  

 

The Ravens game was bad all the way around, and he had a bad night....

 

I think he's still thinking, instead of reacting, and that's going to get better with repetition.  That said, I don't really worry about him too much.  I think it's lots of to-do about nothing.  I'll get concerned when I see him goofing it up in the regular season.

Me neither, I don't think Griffin is struggling near as much as others. For one its preseason.

Its glorified practice. And imho Jay is using the preseason more for evaluation then for preparation. Personally I think its important to get the offense in sync with the actual offense that is gonna be run. But, I understand why a 1st year HC would lean more towards evaluation and hiding their offense. I also remember thinking the same thing before the Saints game 2 years ago. I thought Griffin didn't get enough reps leading into that game. *shrugs* I guess we'll see. If the offense looks flat and out of sync then maybe the approach to preseason was a mistake. But I digress.........

I can't tell whether the people that are concerned with Griffin's "pocket passing" are concerned based on preseason or are concerned based on what they've seen from Griffin thus far?

Personally I think being concerned based off preseason is folly. On the other hand I don't understand being concerned based off his career this far.*shrugs*

I think Griffin's 2013 season is still viewed through the pall spread over him by the Shanahan's discord and following propaganda blitz. The icing on the cake was the 'benching' and playing of Kirk Cousins, who despite not even playing well is still mentioned as viable alternative and that imo was exactly the goal of "saving" Griffin for the offseason and playing Cousins. I'm sure the Shanahan's thought Cousin's play would vindicate the decision but Cousin's didn't play well, in fact he played poorly. (a fact often overlooked) Moreover Griff's history suggest that IF he played those last 3 cup cake games he would have put up numbers at least equal to Kirk, who knows maybe even win a game. But again I digress, point being is that Griffin's season wasn't nearly as bad as the current perception. And I believe the preseason "struggles" are causing a bit of revision when looking back at Griffin 2013 season. When you think about the injury and the general organizational chaos between the Shanahan's and Griffin its actually surprising that Griffin's production in his 'bad' wasn't that bad at all.

[ILikeBilly]

After reading many post in here, I think I have my definition of a pocket passer.  It does not include changing plays or making sure the blitz is picked up or knowing who will be unblocked on a play.  All QBs need these skills. 

 

A pocket passer can also be a running QB, but if you aren't able to run, you really need the pocket passer skills.  So what is a pocket passer? 

 

A pocket passer is a QB that can make subtitle moves within the pocket to create additional time while keeping an eye on the WRs and defense so that he can complete all types of throws from within the pocket.  If you can step up, stay put or slide a little to the right or left while making all the throws, you are a pocket passer. 

 

If you can do this and also scramble and make plays, you are Aaron Rodgers or a few other QBs. 

[darrelgreenie]

When I say "pocket passer", I only mean that they are capable of reading defenses and making check downs as opposed to using only half the field (the vast majority of the time) or making one read then running.

Luck is a pocket passer, but he can run effectively. Young was a pocket passer later in his career but also could run effectively.

The definition of 'pocket passer' remains elusive. Eli Manning/Flacco are capable of reading defenses and making check downs. Would they be considered pocket passers according to you? I think most would consider them pocket passers. (btw, from the pocket without play-action Griffin was better then both of them)

 

But what do you say when a 'pocket passer' isn't playing well or has a bad season?

Did they forget how to play from the pocket?

 

And how come when Griffin has a 'bad' season (actually a bad pre-season) people say he's not a good pocket passer or is struggling as a pocket passer? (not that you specifically are saying that)

[codeorama]

The definition of 'pocket passer' remains elusive. Eli Manning/Flacco are capable of reading defenses and making check downs. Would they be considered pocket passers according to you? I think most would consider them pocket passers. (btw, from the pocket without play-action Griffin was better then both of them)

But what do you say when a 'pocket passer' isn't playing well or has a bad season?

Did they forget how to play from the pocket?

And how come when Griffin has a 'bad' season (actually a bad pre-season) people say he's not a good pocket passer or is struggling as a pocket passer? (not that you specifically are saying that)

Griffin doesn't read defenses and check down. This has been pointed out by many different "experts". The consensus is that he's a 1 read half field qb. The success he had year 1 was based on his ability to run. Teams had to account for him and it left receivers wide open much like Vick's heyday in Atlanta.

Griffin winning the rookie of the year over Luck was crazy IMO. Before the season started, everyone expected and predicted that Griffin and the Skins would have more immediate success. No one in their right mind thought Luck could get the colts to the playoffs. The colts are weak. No O line, no running game. No defense other than the guy that got suspended for fertility drugs. Luck has done more with less over the past 2 seasons but in particular, during that rookie year. Everyone was convinced they'd bomb.

[darrelgreenie]

Griffin doesn't read defenses and check down. This has been pointed out by many different "experts". The consensus is that he's a 1 read half field qb. The success he had year 1 was based on his ability to run. Teams had to account for him and it left receivers wide open much like Vick's heyday in Atlanta.

Griffin winning the rookie of the year over Luck was crazy IMO.

Why do you reply if you don't intend on responding to the content of the post?

The definition of 'pocket passer' remains elusive. Eli Manning/Flacco are capable of reading defenses and making check downs. Would they be considered pocket passers according to you? I think most would consider them pocket passers. (btw, from the pocket without play-action Griffin was better then both of them)

But what do you say when a 'pocket passer' isn't playing well or has a bad season?

Did they forget how to play from the pocket?

And how come when Griffin has a 'bad' season (actually a bad pre-season) people say he's not a good pocket passer or is struggling as a pocket passer? (not that you specifically are saying that)

Most of what you say in your post isn't true anyway and you completely ignore Griffin's non-play action production. And if anyone other then Griffin deserved ROY it was Wilson or Alfred.

[codeorama]

Why do you reply if you don't intend on responding to the content of the post?

The definition of 'pocket passer' remains elusive. Eli Manning/Flacco are capable of reading defenses and making check downs. Would they be considered pocket passers according to you? I think most would consider them pocket passers. (btw, from the pocket without play-action Griffin was better then both of them)

But what do you say when a 'pocket passer' isn't playing well or has a bad season?

Did they forget how to play from the pocket?

And how come when Griffin has a 'bad' season (actually a bad pre-season) people say he's not a good pocket passer or is struggling as a pocket passer? (not that you specifically are saying that)

Most of what you say in your post isn't true anyway and you completely ignore Griffin's non-play action production. And if anyone other then Griffin deserved ROY it was Wilson or Alfred.

If a pocket passer isn't playing well, then they are not playing well. But their game is to play from the pocket. Running isn't built into the I game. Some could argue that Luck is one of the more effective mobile qb's, but the colts rarely call plays designed for his mobility. They don't want him to get beat up. That's why the Skins want Griffin to become a pocket passer. They want him to put less wear and tear on his body. I don't agree with that because it doesn't make sense to teach someone a style of play that isn't what they have done in their career.

I'll use Heath Shuler as an example. He was a mobile qb, not a pocket passer but Norv wanted to coach the mobility out of him. He wanted a pocket passer and Shuler wasn't that guy. Wasted draft pick. That's my take on Griffin. Wasted draft pick if you are trying to change him fundamentally. Crazy.

Russell Wilson was on a way better team than Luck. If they swapped places, Seattle would win a SB a year earlier. Colts would have struggled. Can't argue about Morris, but still think Luck carrying the colts was surprising and enough to win.

[NoCalMike]

I still am confused by the notion that a QB has to be one or the other.  If a QB can make plays with his legs whether it is scrambling, or extending plays that is an asset.  It is something else the defense has to plan for.  Something else that will keep them off balance in their plan to attack.

 

In 2012 Robert's THREAT to run was more of a weapon than his actual running.  It stopped pass rushing DEs in their tracks.  All he had to do was make it to the corner once or twice a game and it basically ruined the pass rush for the rest of the game due to over-aggressive pass rushers being unsure of where to attack.  To me, it is silly to totally abandon that aspect of the game.  It is also a big part of what opened up lanes for the running game.

 

Whether a QB can use his legs or not has little to do with his skills in his pocket.  

 

For some perspective, I was driving home from work today listening to the 49ers pregame coverage and their PBP guys were barely short of begging Colin Kap to not be so afraid of tucking the ball and running if a play breaks down and the opportunity presents itself. I understand our fan base is still suffering reconstruction surgery fatigue but you can't play the game anticipating an injury.

[codeorama]

I still am confused by the notion that a QB has to be one or the other.  If a QB can make plays with his legs whether it is scrambling, or extending plays that is an asset.  It is something else the defense has to plan for.  Something else that will keep them off balance in their plan to attack.

 

In 2012 Robert's THREAT to run was more of a weapon than his actual running.  It stopped pass rushing DEs in their tracks.  All he had to do was make it to the corner once or twice a game and it basically ruined the pass rush for the rest of the game due to over-aggressive pass rushers being unsure of where to attack.  To me, it is silly to totally abandon that aspect of the game.  It is also a big part of what opened up lanes for the running game.

 

Whether a QB can use his legs or not has little to do with his skills in his pocket.  

 

For some perspective, I was driving home from work today listening to the 49ers pregame coverage and their PBP guys were barely short of begging Colin Kap to not be so afraid of tucking the ball and running if a play breaks down and the opportunity presents itself. I understand our fan base is still suffering reconstruction surgery fatigue but you can't play the game anticipating an injury.

 I agree with what you are saying... Steve Young later in his career was a dual threat. He was a pocket passer that could run.

Again, I'm not sure who you are addressing, but I'll just say from my perspective, Griffin isn't a pocket passer and I'd say most NFL "experts" agree (more like I agree with them).  I don't care what stats say.  You can see what's happening.  He's not comfortable in the pocket. Why? Because he's never had to be.  The ONLY reason that all this is an issue is because of the concern for his long term health.  Shannahan used Griffin to win.  The result was Griffin got hurt.  I believe that this is ALWAYS the argue against a "running" QB in the NFL.  What good are you if you are hurt all the time (see Mike Vick).  

Again, I would not have drafted Griffin (or Heath Shuler or Cam Newton) and then try to turn them into something they are not. IF over time, Griffin is able to stay healthy, its probable that he will learn to be a better pocket passer.  But I don't think its sane or possible to force that on someone.  The reason Cousins looks better is because he played in a similar offence in college. He doesn't have to think as much. Its more reactions.  I'm not saying he's the long term answer, I'm just saying it makes sense that he would have easier success being that his college offense was similar compared to Griffin's offense that was not.

[zoony]

Yup.

I'm gonna post Griffin's NON-PLAY-ACTION stats because they apply directly to your comment above about the RO play action fake.

So let's remove not just RO play-action but ALL play-action and see what his pocket passing numbers are:

 

Griffin---2,222 yards--12 TDs/8 INTs/62% comp/75% acc/6.9 ypa/85 QB rating/ 2.2 PFF grade

 

Ultimately production matters. We can't ignore it or explain it away.

And the production suggest that Griffin is good from the pocket even without play-action.

Those don't seem like very good stats

[NoCalMike]

But I think it deserves to be said that with all the other skills Robert brings at the position it is a shame that at least half this fanbase is ready to dump him as a QB before he has even played a down in his third season, when he wasn't playing on a team that was going to win it all the first two seasons anyway.

 

The value Robert brings to me is worth the wait to develop him more into the pocket passing style over a couple more seasons. If the improvement is coming then good.  I see no reason to give up on him right now, especially when behind him is someone who isn't cut out to be a franchise QB and by putting him in it is an early concession that Robert will never develop.

 

I also think that Griffin developing or not is a completely separate issue than whether or not Cousins can be a franchise QB.  

 

Remember 2010/11? Grossman knew Kyle's offense better than McNabb, often looked more comfortable in it and was able to put together a lot of good looking drives throughout the season.....but he was still Rex Grossman. No matter how well he knew the offense, or felt comfortable in it, ultimately he was never going to be anything more than he was.

 

And that is my fear with this sudden push by people who want to see Cousins thrown into the starting role.  His NFL starting tenure is a small sample size, but from what I have seen thus far he looks rather similar to THAT kind of QB who will look good in a familiar offense in the short term but be exposed over the long term.  And what this franchise doesn't need right now is another short term answer.  We should be hoping that Robert turns into the franchise QB of the future because if he doesn't I don't see one on the roster behind him.

 

I think Robert is unfairly targeted due to being on an overall mediocre team his first two seasons.  Go look at the way SF/SEA brought along their guys.  The offenses they ran are not so unlike how Robert was brought along.  A lot of quick drops and deception in order to get the first read open.  This wasn't something unique to Robert.  The difference being those QBs played on teams who had defenses that could keep the game manageable all the way to the end, while Robert couldn't afford to make mistakes or else it meant automatic loss.

 

If you put Kap/Wilson on the 2013 Redskins I fail to see them performing much better other than the coming back from surgery aspect of Robert's game.

[darrelgreenie]

Those don't seem like very good stats

Well he only played 13 games.

Griffin is in the same ballpark as Andrew Luck when it comes to throwing from the pocket without play-action.

Griffin has higher comp%, accuracy%, higher and higher ypa.

Yet no one questions Luck's pocket passing; quite the contrary actually Luck is lauded as a great pocket passer,

Griffin---2,222 yards--12 TDs/8 INTs/62% comp/75% acc/6.9 ypa/85 QB rating/ 2.2 PFF grade

Luck-----3008 yards---19 TDs/9 INTs/61% comp/72% acc/6.4 ypa/86 QB rating/ 2.9 PFF grade

Brady----2816 yards---21 TDs/10 INTs/60% comp/74 acc/5.9 ypa/83 QB rating/ 5.5 PFF grade

[TheGloryDays]

Just because our QB isn't a good pocket passer doesn't mean we should pretend that, as fans, we don't know what a pocket passer is. Watch Tom Brady highlights and then watch the lowlights from the Cleveland game last week. See the difference?

[CrypticVillain]

What was Steve Young?

 

Steve Young was Aaron Rodgers before Aaron Rodgers. Like dballer said earlier in this thread, those are the QBs that I think Griffin could become. He just needs a little more time.