The Official ES All Things Redskins Name Change Thread (Reboot Edition---Read New OP)

[Gamebreaker]

I've done quite a bit of research on Native Americans partly due to some distant lineage but also because they were a fascinating people. The Algonquin tribes of the Powhatan used dust from copper mines to cover their bodies when going to battle which gave their skin a reddish-orange hue.

Reference the owner it's been brought up before and I'll repeat what's been said. Why would an egotist like Marshall name his team after something he thought was demeaning? That would be like me buying a semi pro team in Northern Virginia and naming them the Manassas Morons.

Exactly. People take his stance against integrating the team as he must've obviously named them after a racist name, because he was a racist.

---------- Post added May-10th-2013 at 09:24 AM ----------

Not every insult is intended. Many happen because people just don't know better. And they are 100% sure they are not being insulting. So they keep doing it and wonder why everyone is acting funny.

Although I understand what you're saying, I don't believe that applies in this case. Well meaning or not, the word was not offensive when he re-named the team. There was nothing to be offended about.

[Commander Chaaarmnder]

Ok good work. But good news my friends, Snyder says REDSKINS will never change their name according to si.com

http://tracking.si.com/2013/05/09/redskins-name-change-dan-snyder/?sct=uk_t2_a3

"Washington Redskins owner Dan Snyder said Thursday that as long as he owns the team, the Redskins name would “never” change because of the tradition associated with the name.

“We will never change the name of the team,” Snyder said in an interview with USA Today’s Erik Brady this week. “As a lifelong Redskins fan, and I think that the Redskins fans understand the great tradition and what it’s all about and what it means, so we feel pretty fortunate to be just working on next season.”

Snyder’s proclamation comes at a time when the organization has faced a barrage of renewed criticism over the name, which some consider offensive to Native Americans. Washington Mayor Vincent Gray said in January that he hoped the team would consider changing the name.

And in February, the Redskins were targeted during a daylong symposium at the Smithsonian about racial stereotypes, to which they were invited but chose not to attend. Washington Mayor Vincent Gray also pointedly referred to the franchise as “our Washington football team” in his recent State of the District speech, avoiding the Redskins nickname."

[Taylor 36]

This topic has been beaten to death on these boards, and so many times I've gotten on my soap box about the name. I'm too tired right now to go through it all again except to say that the only offensive thing about this entire situation is that people that don't have a drop of Native American decent in their blood have TOLD Native Americans and others what the SHOULD be offended by. That is offensive; taking away one's right to independent thought analysis and opinion. If someone is not offended by something until they are told to be offended, then they are not truly offended. They are just a mindless sheep.

[SWFLSkins]

Not every insult is intended. Many happen because people just don't know better. And they are 100% sure they are not being insulting. So they keep doing it and wonder why everyone is acting funny.

This thread educates those people who think it is somehow racist because the media says so, not because it is. In the case not everyone is acting funny, not the mass populace of Native Americans, not Redskins fans. Please if you are taking the approach that the term is indeed insulting bring some evidence of that.

They call me white, they call my nephew black and we root for the Redskins, it was not racist until the media ran with it. The Courts have spoken and they based that off of one thing, where is the outraged insulted populace?

[shmohawk]

"White people: Hi, you're Indians, right?

Indians: No

White people: But this is India, right?

Indians: No

White people:....Nah, you're Indians."

Louis CK

[Main-Maine]

I've done quite a bit of research on Native Americans partly due to some distant lineage but also because they were a fascinating people. The Algonquin tribes of the Powhatan used dust from copper mines to cover their bodies when going to battle which gave their skin a reddish-orange hue.

Reference the owner it's been brought up before and I'll repeat what's been said. Why would an egotist like Marshall name his team after something he thought was demeaning? That would be like me buying a semi pro team in Northern Virginia and naming them the Manassas Morons.

I agree mainly for this point. If anything the Redskins should just take the native american face off the helmets, and replace it with feathers.

[TK]

[youngestson]

Ross Tucker was discussing this on his NFL Radio show this morning, and the responses were pretty wide ranging.

Two people who at least claimed to have some Native American blood had completely opposite views about the term and even the source.

There is obviously disagreement among Native Americans as to if the term is offensive, and even how much offense it gives, as well as more than a little confusion as to where the term came from in the first place. So I'd guess that population is as diverse as the larger national one.

I think my opinion has always been that people simply don't name teams after that which they scorn, look down upon, hate, dismiss, or loath. Simply doesn't happen.

[Bantu]

"White people: Hi, you're Indians, right?

Indians: No

White people: But this is India, right?

Indians: No

White people:....Nah, you're Indians."

Louis CK

Later Thursday, USA TODAY Sports will publish a story about Amanda Blackhorse, who is Navajo and the named plaintiff in the trademark suit. She said if she ever had the chance, she'd ask Snyder if he would dare to call her a redskin to her face.

"I think the best way is to just not comment on that type of stuff," Snyder said. "I don't know her."

I think this dodge by Snyder says everything we need to know. I cannot lie, I think I'd hate it if we changed the name, too. However, if Snyder acts all tough about never changing the name and says you can put never in "caps" and then in the next breath dodges that question, it tells me his convictions are not as strong as he is trying to portray.

[repo_4]

Later Thursday, USA TODAY Sports will publish a story about Amanda Blackhorse, who is Navajo and the named plaintiff in the trademark suit. She said if she ever had the chance, she'd ask Snyder if he would dare to call her a redskin to her face.

"I think the best way is to just not comment on that type of stuff," Snyder said. "I don't know her."

I think this dodge by Snyder says everything we need to know. I cannot lie, I think I'd hate it if we changed the name, too. However, if Snyder acts all tough about never changing the name and says you can put never in "caps" and then in the next breath dodges that question, it tells me his convictions are not as strong as he is trying to portray.

This is the biggest problem with this issue. There are millions? of Native Americans (or decendants) in this country that have no problem with the name (or just dont care either way) but because 5 people take issue with it we have to endure all of this. If a majority of those people had an issue with the name I would say maybe we do need to consider a change. But why do the complaits and feelings of a handful always dictate actions to the majority. This damn political correctness has to stop.

[CrypticVillain]

There is obviously disagreement among Native Americans as to if the term is offensive

That's what I been trying to tell people. To take it to another level, they disagree on what they call themselves.

[skinsfan4128]

Later Thursday, USA TODAY Sports will publish a story about Amanda Blackhorse, who is Navajo and the named plaintiff in the trademark suit. She said if she ever had the chance, she'd ask Snyder if he would dare to call her a redskin to her face.

"I think the best way is to just not comment on that type of stuff," Snyder said. "I don't know her."

I think this dodge by Snyder says everything we need to know. I cannot lie, I think I'd hate it if we changed the name, too. However, if Snyder acts all tough about never changing the name and says you can put never in "caps" and then in the next breath dodges that question, it tells me his convictions are not as strong as he is trying to portray.

No offense, Bantu, but it seems you missed an interesting element to this. Did you notice her blantant attempt to "bait" Snyder into making a raially charged comment? Yet, it is not addressed by the USA Today author. And eactly what should have Snyder have stated in re to her challenge? The truth is, Snyder did not engage in her attempt to provoke a racial argument. Why would he bother "calling her a Redskin to her face" when it isn't used in that context? It's used a a team name. As the once great George Carlin would say, "It's not the word you should worried about, it's the ******* using the word you should be concerned about!" It's really all about context, and using the name as your team's name is not even remotely being used in a racial slight. Ridiculous to make it appear otherwise (not specifically at you, Bantu, just in general).

[grego]

kevin sheehan just talked about this for the first 10 or so minutes of his show.

nothing groundbreaking. hes generally opposed to the name change, as expected. but he did talk about how its ridiculous to compare it to the n word.

[Bang]

Yeah, i'd say demanding to know if he'd call her that to her face assumes she believes he calls her or any other person that behind their back.

Which is a gigantic leap.

~Bang

[Larry]

Later Thursday, USA TODAY Sports will publish a story about Amanda Blackhorse, who is Navajo and the named plaintiff in the trademark suit. She said if she ever had the chance, she'd ask Snyder if he would dare to call her a redskin to her face.

"I think the best way is to just not comment on that type of stuff," Snyder said. "I don't know her."

I think this dodge by Snyder says everything we need to know. I cannot lie, I think I'd hate it if we changed the name, too. However, if Snyder acts all tough about never changing the name and says you can put never in "caps" and then in the next breath dodges that question, it tells me his convictions are not as strong as he is trying to portray.

Or it tells you that Snyder knows that words have different meanings depending on how they're used.

And that trying to claim that walking up to someone, raising your hand, and saying "How, Redskin" is insulting, and that this somehow proves that saying "The Washington Redskins beat the Dallas Cowboys in their own stadium on Thanksgiving day" is insulting, too, is a meaningless argument.

(And that the plaintiff knows it, too. Which is why the plaintiff is trying to pretend that the word is used in some completely different context.)

[Chew]

I just don't get it. If the team name was originally changed from Boston Braves to Boston Redskins as a tribute to the head coach at the time, William Dietz, who was part Sioux (though apparently his heritage was questioned later on).

But if the team name was changed to "Redskins" to honor the head coach who was part Native American, how is that offensive in any way?

[pjfootballer]

Again, who goes up to ANY total stranger and calls them ANYTHING before knowing their name or what they like to be called. The question of "would you go up to someone and call them so and so," is lunacy anyways. I see someone I don't know, I call them sir or ma'am depending on their age or I could say mr., miss or mizz. I'm white and I don't go up to white people I don't know and say, "hi cracker or hi fatty or hi ugly." The question she asks is just an unrealistic thing that someone would say.

[Koolblue13]

Again, who goes up to ANY total stranger and calls them ANYTHING before knowing their name or what they like to be called. The question of "would you go up to someone and call them so and so," is lunacy anyways. I see someone I don't know, I call them sir or ma'am depending on their age or I could say mr., miss or mizz. I'm white and I don't go up to white people I don't know and say, "hi cracker or hi fatty or hi ugly." The question she asks is just a realistic thing that someone would say.

That reminds me of the Monty Python bit in Holy Grail (I think). Excuse me Miss- It's Mr- or Dennins- I didn't know you were called Dennins- Never bothered to ask, did you?

[pjfootballer]

That reminds me of the Monty Python bit in Holy Grail (I think). Excuse me Miss- It's Mr- or Dennins- I didn't know you were called Dennins- Never bothered to ask, did you?

I actually screwed up my last line. I meant to say "unrealistic" instead of realistic.

[grego]

I agree mainly for this point. If anything the Redskins should just take the native american face off the helmets, and replace it with feathers.

But you know why there's an Indian chief on the helmet now, right?

I think those who claim to be offended are more offended by the name, but some, like Amanda blackhorse, go so far as to not even wanting 'warriors' as a nickname.

[Beygo]

We should be named the "washington weak sisters" because if we let the pc army make us change the name, that's exactly what we'll be.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Is Cleveland Indians considered offensive? I remember that one of their logos/mascots was and isn't used anymore. But is the term "Indian" OK to use these days since it's not even accurate?

My point is that Indian is a term that was used at some point in time during history. It's outlived its use and has been replaced by Native American (I think). The same can be said about Redskin. It represents a neutral, commonly-used term to describe a group of people that is no longer in use and has been replaced. I don't understand why it has to be taken out of the context of when it was coined.

Vikings, Raiders, and Buccaneers are all historical terms used to describe people. There are still descendants of Vikings on this planet. Are those people offended that an NFL team is making light of their pillaging, raping, and murdering ancestors? What about people related to pirates (raiders and buccaneers) or victims of pirates? Is that funny or clever or politically correct to pay homage to those types of historical figures?

I'm not even really trying to make a point by being funny. I am truly wondering if a non-Native American telling us that Redskin is offensive holds the above opinions as well. I think the rules need to be applied across the board. That's all. If we are going to be offended for others about sports nicknames, let's really peel the onion.

Off topic, I do love that America's Team uses a nickname that originated in another country.

[Gamebreaker]

But you know why there's an Indian chief on the helmet now, right?

I think those who claim to be offended are more offended by the name, but some, like Amanda blackhorse, go so far as to not even wanting 'warriors' as a nickname.

I recall her saying that in an interview on 106.7 THE FAN. IMO, she came off sounding like a whacko. In her logic, any mascot that is based off someone's culture is offensive to her. She lost the radio hosts and callers when she said that one.

[pjfootballer]

Boy CBS sports radio is all over Dan Snyder's comments to USA Today. I heard one about an hour ago comparing it to Jackie Robinson and now I just heard Jim Rome. Rome said, "Why don't you go ask Native American's what they think." Umm, we have Jim and 91% said they have no problem with it. Then he said something like, "To Native American's, it is racist and insensative.' So Jim, you as a white man are telling us how Native American's should feel? See this is the exact bull**** that spews from our media today.

[Main-Maine]

But you know why there's an Indian chief on the helmet now, right?

I think those who claim to be offended are more offended by the name, but some, like Amanda blackhorse, go so far as to not even wanting 'warriors' as a nickname.

I understand, because it's the main concept behind the Viking's logo of a white viking warrior on the side of their helmets. I honestly don't see the big deal, and believe these small groups of native American are reaching on this subject. I think if they win their should be a trickle down effect. The Chiefs, Viking, Patriots, Buccaneers, 49ers, and Cowboys should all have their names changed. Many small groups of white ethnicity could say "I feel like these teams are representing us in a derogatory way."

I strongly feel the past history of how the Native American was treated, and our organization stance on integration could be the driving force. I just can't believe a owner would name his team something he wouldn't be proud to be called.

---------- Post added May-10th-2013 at 03:09 PM ----------

Is Cleveland Indians considered offensive? I remember that one of their logos/mascots was and isn't used anymore. But is the term "Indian" OK to use these days since it's not even accurate?

My point is that Indian is a term that was used at some point in time during history. It's outlived its use and has been replaced by Native American (I think). The same can be said about Redskin. It represents a neutral, commonly-used term to describe a group of people that is no longer in use and has been replaced. I don't understand why it has to be taken out of the context of when it was coined.

Vikings, Raiders, and Buccaneers are all historical terms used to describe people. There are still descendants of Vikings on this planet. Are those people offended that an NFL team is making light of their pillaging, raping, and murdering ancestors? What about people related to pirates (raiders and buccaneers) or victims of pirates? Is that funny or clever or politically correct to pay homage to those types of historical figures?

I'm not even really trying to make a point by being funny. I am truly wondering if a non-Native American telling us that Redskin is offensive holds the above opinions as well. I think the rules need to be applied across the board. That's all. If we are going to be offended for others about sports nicknames, let's really peel the onion.

Off topic, I do love that America's Team uses a nickname that originated in another country.

Exactly! Looks like we're on the same page!