The Official ES All Things Redskins Name Change Thread (Reboot Edition---Read New OP)

[MattFancy]

Yes.

Go back to the very first column Mike "not so" Wise ever wrote for the WP. It was at the start of Dallas Week. Care to guess what it was about?

 

I guess that was my point in that last post, was that this really is largely media driven.

 

You don't see players coming out and protesting like what was going down in the NBA with the Sterling issue. Sure there have been some that don't agree with the name, but it's not like when teams were threatening to boycott a playoff game if Sterling wasn't banned for life.

 

The NFL owners aren't threating to vote out Snyder.

 

Sponsors aren't pulling out like they did with the Clippers.

 

According to the ESPN poll, 2 out of every 3 fans think the name should stay.

 

The media really are driving the bus on this one. It's not coming from the fans, players, owners, league or sponsors.

Yes.

Go back to the very first column Mike "not so" Wise ever wrote for the WP. It was at the start of Dallas Week. Care to guess what it was about?

Go look up our Ownership Group.

 

I read earlier that the FedEx CEO is one of the owners. Never knew that before today.

[grhqofb5]

Yes.

Go back to the very first column Mike "not so" Wise ever wrote for the WP. It was at the start of Dallas Week. Care to guess what it was about?

Go look up our Ownership Group.

 

Link??

[TK]

Why do they still have a trademark?

[Dan T.]

I guess that was my point in that last post, was that this really is largely media driven.

 

You don't see players coming out and protesting like what was going down in the NBA with the Sterling issue. Sure there have been some that don't agree with the name, but it's not like when teams were threatening to boycott a playoff game if Sterling wasn't banned for life.

 

The NFL owners aren't threating to vote out Snyder.

 

Sponsors aren't pulling out like they did with the Clippers.

 

According to the ESPN poll, 2 out of every 3 fans think the name should stay.

 

The media really are driving the bus on this one. It's not coming from the fans, players, owners, league or sponsors.

 

I read earlier that the FedEx CEO is one of the owners. Never knew that before today.

 

It's remarkable. You list every possible constituency except one. Native Americans.  You know, the only ones who can legitimately claim to be offended by the name.  "The media" didn't invent this controversy out of whole cloth.  Native Americans have been raising the issue for a long time, as previous posts in this thread have shown.  They managed to get media traction this time.  Congressional involvement ensued.  Then the Patent Office weighed in.  For better or worse, it's a full blown issue now.  And the media is along for the ride.

[RVAbrendan]

What if Snyder threw some shares of the team to the group spearheading the movement? Money talks...

[elkabong82]

this slippery slope thing......

 

just because the most adamant opponent WANTS to eliminate x y or z doesn't mean that getting rid of the redskins name means they get the whole enchilada.   They probably want to restore maryland to its original owners, as well.    (i don't think that one is gonna happen) 

 

It's not a slippery slope when the opposition has specifically said it's their goal. This has been mentioned in here before as well. 

 

Tell me, what happened in college football once the same precedent was set? Did it stop at teams name Redskins? Nope, sure didn't. If the precedent is set at the pro level by changing Redskins, what arguments will there be to tell NAs what is and isn't offensive to them? They will have already been granted one thing as offensive so extending it to all NA themes won't be a huge step, in fact it will be much easier to concede at that point, just like it was in NCAA. You can't have a slippery slope when opposition says it is their goal and a precedent exists.

 

You trying to extend the argument to absurdity with the Maryland example, now that is a logical fallacy.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

All symbols and names of oppression, insensitivity, and racism. Anyone who disagrees with me is a bigot

 

That's really about a 3 out of 10 by your standards. I've seen better from you.

[Dan T.]

 

Tell me, what happened in college football once the same precedent was set? Did it stop at teams name Redskins? Nope, sure didn't. If the precedent is set at the pro level by changing Redskins, what arguments will there be to tell NAs what is and isn't offensive to them? They will have already been granted one thing as offensive so extending it to all NA themes won't be a huge step, in fact it will be much easier to concede at that point, just like it was in NCAA. You can't have a slippery slope when opposition says it is their goal and a precedent exists.

And really, what lasting damage was done to Stanford, St. John's, et. al. as a result of those name changes? Did the programs suffer? Did the fan base abandon them? Did enrollment go down?

Edit:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/2013/09/12/native-american-mascot-changes-ncaa/2804337/

Here is a list of notable colleges that changed Native American mascots and/or nicknames in recent history:

- Stanford University – Indians to Cardinal (1972)

- Dartmouth – Indians to Big Green (1974)

- Siena – Indians to Saints (1988)

- Eastern Michigan – Hurons to Eagles (1991)

- St. John's (N.Y.) – Redman to Red Storm (1994)

- Marquette – Warriors to Golden Eagles (1994)

- Miami (Ohio) – Redskins to RedHawks (1997)

- Seattle University – Chieftains to Redhawks (2000)

- Louisiana-Monroe – Indiana to Warhakws (2006)

- Arkansas State – Indians to Red Wolves (2008)

- North Dakota – Formerly dropped Fighting Sioux in 2012. No nickname currently.

OTHERS:

- Illinois – Removed Chief Illiniwek as official mascot in 2007. Athletics teams are still called Fighting Illini.

- Bradley and Alcorn State – Both schools stopped using Native American mascot but have retained their Braves nickname.

- William and Mary – Adjusted Tribe logo to remove feathers to comply with NCAA. Athletics teams are still called Tribe. (2007)

[DC9]

What if Snyder threw some shares of the team to the group spearheading the movement? Money talks...

 

so does perception

[MattFancy]

It's remarkable. You list every possible constituency except one. Native Americans.  You know, the only ones who can legitimately claim to be offended by the name.  "The media" didn't invent this controversy out of whole cloth.  Native Americans have been raising the issue for a long time, as previous posts in this thread have shown.  They managed to get media traction this time.  Congressional involvement ensued.  Then the Patent Office weighed in.  For better or worse, it's a full blown issue now.  And the media is along for the ride.

 

Well yeah the Native Americans have made it an issue for sure. But what we still don't know is how many of them? I thought I read in the info about the trademark case that it is 30% that find it dispariging. Is that enough to enact change? I don't know. I've always gone by if a majority of them are offended, then sure let's change it.

[mcsluggo]

It's not a slippery slope when the opposition has specifically said it's their goal. This has been mentioned in here before as well. 

 

Tell me, what happened in college football once the same precedent was set? Did it stop at teams name Redskins? Nope, sure didn't. If the precedent is set at the pro level by changing Redskins, what arguments will there be to tell NAs what is and isn't offensive to them? They will have already been granted one thing as offensive so extending it to all NA themes won't be a huge step, in fact it will be much easier to concede at that point, just like it was in NCAA. You can't have a slippery slope when opposition says it is their goal and a precedent exists.

 

You trying to extend the argument to absurdity with the Maryland example, now that is a logical fallacy.

 

it was purposefully absurd.  The point is that you have identified the whole litany of demands from the most extreme opponents to the name.... they probably won't get everything that they want, but probably will keep clamoring for it. 

[Bang]

Dude are you paying attention?  The cat is already out of the bag.....it's not like its a big secret about the Redskins name change anymore.  They are already enabled as you can see from the massive amount of people who had absolutely no clue that the Redskins name was considered racist and now suddenly it's the worse name in the book.  These people have no clue about the history of the name or literally anything about the Redskins but just that it's offensive.  This **** isn't going to stop until people START talking about and start becoming sick of the PC that runs through this country.

You don't seem to get that the yapping you do is the same damn type of thing, just manipulations from another source.

 

Yes, i'm paying attention. I've been paying attention for a long time and i think and have always thought the biggest problem with this country is exactly the sort of rage-finger-pointing behavior that you demonstrate that makes it easy for groups like this to do what they've done. A raging screaming sky is falling blame filled barrage is how you react, you boil everything down to  the pinheaded "lib'ruls' is ruinin' the country" propaganda that is especially formulated for people JUST LIKE YOU. Little yappy dogs screaming their ****ing heads off at everything that passes by the fence. yap yap yap yap.

Harry reid stuck his name on something his staffers wrote, and you have taken it upon yourself to blame him for the thing, even though this has been going on now for over 30 friggin' years.

You're pissed off that politicians bandwagon onto things that they think will get them votes? Grow up, for cryin' out loud.

 

Yap yap yap yap. 

You think continuing to be the same way will change it? Your finger immediately points left no matter what happens, AND no matter what the issue. based on your posting history, you find it in just about everything. 

you're just as open to manipulation, and you are clearly displaying it's effect on you. Yelling won't change what yelling has brought us as a society.

Politicizing it won't change what politicizing everything has done.

 

Behaving like a group of people are 'filth" because they did something you disagree with won't change the venomous unthinking rage based ignorance that guides our collective consciousness these days.

 

You don't seem to get that the reason,, the entire reason that the harjo group is successful THIS TIME is because of people like you. Easily distracted, instantly ready to point a finger, and very unlikely to stop and think beyond the level of propaganda that is fed.

I call them Kardashian Kulture.. dumb, ignorant idiots who have been sold on the idea that this fat rich spoiled whore is someone they should pay attention to.

You're just sold on the notion that the right echo chamber promotes, everything left is not only bad, but apocalyptic.

 

You are just two sides of the same coin.

 

the Redskins name isn't going to change because of any liberals. it will change because of idiots who let their media do their thinking for them.

 

Yap yap yap.

 

~Bang

 

[EvilMonkeyBoy]

Dang, Bang. Dang.

[CrypticVillain]

the Redskins name isn't going to change because of any liberals. it will change because of idiots who let their media do their thinking for them.

 

[planter]

Certainly, opinions differ about the appropriateness of “Redskins” as a nickname. But some perspective: There is no time in American history when Native Americans have been held in higher regard. Their nobility is celebrated in our popular culture, and their unjust treatment recounted in our schools. The existence of a professional football franchise with the same name that it has had for the past 80 years — no matter how anachronistic — has self-evidently not caused Native Americans to be held in contempt and disrepute.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/380831/hail-redskins-rich-lowry

Well said.

Americans are learning to respect NA culture. Their love and respect of our natural heritage. Our kids learn of the bravery of Cochise, Sitting Bull ,the Nez Perce, Apache, Navaho Code Talkers,etc.

Our logo is based on respect.

[MEANDWARF]

I want this shirt.

[TK]

Soooo.....

The gist of this thread is if you can't run with the big dogs, keep your yappy dog arse on the porch.

[TK]

 

I read earlier that the FedEx CEO is one of the owners. Never knew that before today.

Yessir. It's how FedEx got the naming rights. Fred Smith financially helped Dan buy the team. In return, FedEx got the naming rights. 

[KuNiT21]

Yap yap yap.

 

~Bang

 

 

Well that about wraps the thread up I guess.  We should all continue to sit on our couches, silence ourselves from our opinion and roll with the punches of Govt?  Makes sense to me.  Sorry, I'm not doing it.  I'm a very simple man.  I like sex, sleep, eating, guns/hunting, music, internetz/tv/video games, sex, and Redskins (in no specific order).  When you start messing around with a few of my hobbies (hence your reference to a different thread with my right wing "extremism"), it starts to become personal.  I have devoted alot of time, stress, money, and stress (again) in my Redskins.  I stay sane on a messageboard when it comes to talking with the Redskins, but we are a superbowl caliber team every single year when I speak to my colleagues and friends.  RG3 is the greatest QB to ever step on the turf and DJax/Garcon are the best WR tandem that will ever play the game.

 

When you start messing with 20 years of my tradition, how amazing our colors are, how amazing our mascot is, our fight song, and how amazing the name Washington Redskins is......I get fired up.  It's amazing to just talk about the Washington Redskins with other Redskins fans on a messageboard where you feel like family.  This is a sports name/logo to show honor, tradition, physicality, toughness, and just greatness of how sick that Native American looks on our helmets when we touch the field on Sundays.

 

So when politics come into play (because that is exactly what this is) I'm not going to sit around and just let everything run it's course.  When nobody cares about things, that's when things get swept under the rug.  I'm not getting swept up under the rug when a minority of the population has a problem with the name.  And stop pretending we all need to be quiet and let this blow over.  More people are involved with politics than ever and with social media, everyone knows this name is a controversy now.  It's time to start voicing our opposition to shut these people up.

 

Redskins are 1st, but this is a start of a big domino effect with sports teams.  This never would have gotten as far as it did if 50 letters didn't get sent to the NFL basically THREATENING them to change the name.  I guess Harry is completely innocent of all this Redskins jargon and we should feel bad for him because his name went on it.  I mean I shouldn't blame him because he probably likes the name Redskins right?  I'm sure he feels terrible about the whole ordeal even though "He will never attend another Redskins game again until the name is changed".  

 

Fact of the matter is, this is political.  It's already reached the tipping point where if voices are not heard, this name will change.  **** just got real whether forbes wants to pretend it didn't or not.  Every single year it keeps progressing further and further, more voices are heard.....my voice will be heard too.  This is a disgusting political tactic to cater to the overly sensitive, PC crowd and get votes.  If the name changes will the NAs be in disgust and vote R?  Most likely not because a large majority of them probably never even watched football.  But I guess when they hear "hey look we stuck up for you" the votes won't swing I guess right?  

 

The hardest part is while a small portion of the native american's view Redskins as racism, those 50 senators intentions have absolutely nothing to do with the Redskins name being racist.  The intentions are 100% in the wrong and I'm sorry you don't feel the same and pretend we should just roll over and die.  I won't stop voicing my opinions, but I will tone them down to the overly sensitive (and this comment has nothing to do with you) and make sure I am not offending anyone with using the word "filth" to label a party, ect.

 

HAIL TO THE REDSKINS  A VERY BIG PORTION OF MY LIFE

[grhqofb5]

Five things I have determined, and I think this is all I need to know at this point.

 

(1) Whether a term is "offensive" can only be answered by gauging public opinion, i.e. if a substantial proportion (not number) of human beings (or a particular subset of the human beings toward whom a term refers) indicate they are or are not offended by a term, it either (1) is offensive or (2) is not offensive. The best way to find out what human beings believe is to ask them what they believe.  The best, universally accepted, and only financially feasible way to ask human beings what they believe is to design and conduct a survey based upon a sample of the human being population we are interested in hearing from.  And the best way to ensure that you are asking a randomly selected sample of these humans is to get the best list you can find and randomly choose from that list.  And that list happens to be telephone listings.  These surveys are often called "opinion polls" and while never perfect, they are the most perfect means of answering determining what a large population of human beings are thinking.

 

(2) The only reliable opinion poll relating to the question of whether native americans are offended by the Washington NFL franchise's use of the name "Redskins" as its mascot reveals that an overwhelming majority of native americans are not offended.

 

(3) Name-changers are critical of this survey (and so are some "experts"), yet choose to rely instead upon anecdotes, analogies, hypothetical arguments, and emotion. Name-Keepers like to point out anecdotes, analogies, hypothetical arguments and emotion as well, but should instead just point to the survey. The experts who are critical of this survey fail to disclose that the "issues" they raise are inherent with just about any opinion poll, but that opinion polls are widely used and relied upon not only by businesses, but also in our judicial system.

 

(4) Many people seem to believe that extreme "annoyance" should be enough to bring about change, not actual native american opinion or loss in revenue resulting from the continued use of the team.  I am annoyed not only be the constant discussion, but also by our owner's ineptitude in his efforts to "fight back."

 

(5) There is nothing illegal about the use of the term "redskins." The only way that the franchise could be "forced" to change the name would be if there is a provision in the operating agreement or by-laws of the NFL corporate entity (it may be a 501© organization, at least according to wikipedia) that provides the other stockholders, interest holders, the directors, etc. to either change it, or hold a vote to change it. Even then, the answer can only be obtained by reviewing the by-laws, so if anyone has them please let us all know.

[EvilMonkeyBoy]

Redskins are 1st, but this is a start of a big domino effect with sports teams.  This never would have gotten as far as it did if 50 letters didn't get sent to the NFL basically THREATENING them to change the name.  I guess Harry is completely innocent of all this Redskins jargon and we should feel bad for him because his name went on it.  I mean I shouldn't blame him because he probably likes the name Redskins right?  I'm sure he feels terrible about the whole ordeal even though "He will never attend another Redskins game again until the name is changed".  

You are correct. The 2012 Blackhorse Vs. Pro Football Inc, which was basically a refiling of Harjo Vs. Pro Football Inc. from 1999 except with younger plaintiffs, was ruled the same way the original case pre-appeal and it's ALL HARRY REID AND THE LIB-RULES FAULT cause of a letter written by their staffs a month or two ago.

This literally has never been an issue until the past few years and the Redskins are the first team to ever be pressured into a name change by Native American/American Indians.

Got it.

This is what he's talking about. You're completely ignoring timelines and the history of this and all other NA team name controversies.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

  This is a disgusting political tactic to cater to the overly sensitive, PC crowd and get votes.  

 

Who is winning votes with this issue?

[AzSkinsFan63]

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/laura-flint/2014/06/20/jon-stewart-compares-redskins-fans-nra-defenders-child-porn

 

Jon Stewart Compares Redskins Fans, NRA to Defenders of Child Porn

Comedy Central
The Daily Show with Jon Stewart
June 19, 2014
11:04 p.m. Eastern
2 minutes

JON STEWART: No, I'm talking about the Redskins! The Redskins, not the Packers. Switch it. Get a new name already. It's the 21st century. Hard to think of any other change that is this long overdue.

WILL RIPLEY: A new bill in Japan outlaws the possession of child pornography.

STEWART: Did not see that coming. Did you say “a new bill,” a new bill? That makes Japan the only country to invent a robot who can make pancakes before outlawing the possession of child pornography. They just say like, “Oh, now that we have the pancake robot, maybe we should do that.” I really hope this is because Japan has no child porn. And then they pass this legislation in case anyone ever got it, you know, like our voter I.D. laws to prevent fraud. It's just theoretical, right.

RIPLEY: On the streets of Tokyo, sex sells. Magazines and videos, so sexually explicit, pornographic illustrations of young girls engaged, oftentimes,  in violent sex with older men.  

STEWART:  I think we all owe Godzilla an apology. Anyway, I guess, congratulations, Japan, better late than never.

RIPLEY: But graphic cartoon, even ones showing kids being raped, will stay legal. Why? Because anime animation and Manga comics are a multibillion dollar industry with political and lobbying power.

STEWART: [On screen graphic of NRA logo] That is embarrassing, Japan. That is embarrassing. How can a lobby for harmful, destructive industry take precedence over the protection of children? I am frankly... I am... I am shocked. I am upset.

 

 

 

[EvilMonkeyBoy]

JON STEWART:  Hard to think of any other change that is this long overdue.

Is not a comparison of Redskins fans to Child Pornographers but thanks for trying NewsBusters.

[KuNiT21]

 

You are correct. The 2012 Blackhorse Vs. Pro Football Inc, which was basically a refiling of Harjo Vs. Pro Football Inc. from 1999 except with younger plaintiffs, was ruled the same way the original case pre-appeal and it's ALL HARRY REID AND THE LIB-RULES FAULT cause of a letter written by their staffs a month or two ago.

This literally has never been an issue until the past few years and the Redskins are the first team to ever be pressured into a name change by Native American/American Indians.

Got it.

 

You obviously don't understand what my position was on that.  I said it's getting WORSE every single year.....now why is that?  Could it be because this country is basically 50% divided now Rep/Dem because of what is going on elsewhere?  So the trademark is revoked....what will it be next year?  What will it be the year after?  It's absolutely sickening to see the amount of opposing fans all of a sudden "OK" with the name change.  Let me be the first to tell you, if Dallas "Cowboys" was substituted as racism instead of Redskins......I would also be devastated.  

 

Visit other messageboards.....more people than ever are on board with the Redskins being racist.  Pull up the threads about "Redskins name" archived on opposing messageboards from 2005.  What 2 pages total?  85+% asking if this is a joke or not?  Now we have millions of people talking about this, pages upon pages of people "OK with the name change.  My voice is going to heard because as of 2014.......the Redskins name is becoming more racist than ever.  Are you going to argue that less people think the name is racist than 2005?

 

 

Who is winning votes with this issue?

 

I'm not sure maybe my reply to evil will answer your ?