Mike Shanahan.. Extension or move on, what would you do ?

[skinsforlife101]

I am not happy with Shannahan and it is not because of his player acquisitions. I am unhappy with him because of the coaches he has chosen to be in charge of the development of our young players. I feel they are not being put in position to win.

I agree with you there looking back at it bring Donovan Mcnabb was a huge mistake just think if we would have drafted a CB or a safety with that pick. The Jon Beck experiment last year. My main problem with Shanny has been lack of execution just to many mental mistakes flags at key times, horrible play calls at key moments during games. We have a lot of young players on the team the future may be looking up but is Mike Shannahan the right person to carry this team forward??? I think we are in a similar situation like the Wizards were in last year with Flip Saunders. A very young team with talent at places (RG III, Williams, Ryan Kerrigan, Brian Orakpo, Adam Carriker) but we just don't have the right head coach making the decisions. Just look at the Colts done this year even after losing their head coach for part of the season and gutting half of their roster. I will say it again rebuilding a NFL team does not take 5 years. At the max it should take about 3 years.

My take:

If we finish 6-10 or better (Shanny stays for one more year)

If we finish 5-11 or less (It will be hard to make an argument for Shanny to stay)

[Mania]

IMO, the teams that win year after year have had the same coach, same system, same QB etc etc etc... Redskins nation loves change, i'm tired of change, our offense is starting to click, we need a few solid players in the secondary and we are making the playoffs.

Agree completely and I'll add that it is much easier to fix a defense than an offense.

[Mania]

Extension, new D coordinator immediately.

Ditto

[MartinC]

You'd need some serious reward to waste a draft choice on Matthieu. You practically need to be on the FBI's most wanted list to get kicked off LSUs football team, at least for a meaningful game, and Matthieu has effectively accomplished that feat twice this year. I sure wouldn't want him in the locker room.

I appreciate the need for starters, but taking big risks can result in having no starters and no depth. The best way to get starters is to improve scouting, not take players with known attitude flaws. I was hoping we learned that with Haynesworth.

Add in Matthieu is 5ft 9 and 175 and runs a 4.6 40. Small and slow is not a good combination for an NFL DB. Matthieu does play faster than his 40 time and could add some weight but I'm not sure he has a position in the NFL. Add in the off filed stuff and I can see him going undrafted.

[IS guhn RAIN]

That plan gets harder and harder as the weeks go bye. Team has to win to promote Kyle to head coach. Kyle could leave this year regardless of what his dads situation is.

If that indeed does happen, I'm done with Mike too. I think kyle is still the bright spot of the coaching staff. He has his flaws, and the playcalling/option offense could be a little gimmicky, but as far as creating/designing plays, I think hes one of the best in the league. There is always someone open and he's brilliant as far designing plays that will work. He's the only reason im not completely ready to give up on this coaching staff. If he's gone, I think our chance and becoming a really great offense are gone and I would be ready to move on.

[SKINSFAN87]

New dcoordinator as well as some defensive coaches, I would hold off on the extension until after this season to see if progress is made or not. If progress is not made and he starts losing the locker room then I would think that a change may be in play. A side note: my list of next head coaches in order: cowher, chip kelly, gruden

[illone]

Shannahan sucks at putting together winning staffs, something Joe Gibbs excelled at. Joe Gibbs philosophy was, ‘I hire people smarter than me.’ Shannahan’s philosophy is ‘I am the smartest, and you are all second, third, fourth, fifth, etc. It is not my fault, but yours.’

BOOM! Well said fetus. I agree 110%

[Skinzfever2010]

I posted this on another forum, but will post it here as well, I want Shanny gone:

I am not happy with Shannahan and it is not because of his player acquisitions. I am unhappy with him because of the coaches he has chosen to be in charge of the development of our young players. I feel they are not being put in position to win.

With Shannahan’s year off from football, he claimed that he not only studied players, but he also studied coaches and schemes. I was real excited about this claim. Now, I am curious as to what he studied. I would really like to hear the reasons for each hire.

I never wanted Shanahan here. I was never a fan. However, he brought a professionalism that Jim Zorn, Vinny Cerrato and the Skins lacked for years. It was easy to get excited hearing a professional talk, at least for me.

Now the following numbers and stats do not tell a complete story, they are just a portion of it, a mere snapshot of a coach’s career. There are tons of holes in this argument; however, I think there are some valid points here.

Here are the coaches in question: Chris Foerster, Bob Slowik, Jacob Burney, Jim Haslett

It is hard to find information about the kind of systems each position coach or coordinator has run. If anyone has resources regarding this matter, please share them

• Chris Foerster (Offensive Line Coach): Has he ever run a Zone Blocking Scheme? I don’t think so, but there is a good possibility I am wrong. Even if he has, his track record is poor.

Please note that sacks and rushing average do not tell a whole story about whether or not an O-line coach is good. There are other factors such as offensive talent, QB, and receivers. However, sacks and rushing avg are a part of the problem. Here is Foerster’s recent history:

Miami Dolphins Offensive Coordinator

2004

Offensive Rank – 28 (offensive ranking goes solely by points scored)

Baltimore Ravens Offensive Line Coach

2005

Offense - Sacks 42 (total allowed) Rushing – 3.6 YPA

Offensive rank: 25

2006

Offense – Sacks 17 (total allowed) Rushing – 3.4 YPA

Offensive rank: 12

2007

Offense – Sacks 39 (total allowed) Rushing – 4.0 YPA

Offensive rank: 24

San Francisco 49ers Offensive Line Coach

2008 (took over on week 8)

Offense – Sacks 55 (total allowed) Rushing – 4.0 YPA

Offensive rank – 22

2009

Offense – Sacks 40 (total allowed) Rushing – 4.3 YPA

Offensive rank - 18

So why am I picking on Foerster? Our offense is o.k. He did well at the end of last year. However, the o-line is abysmal this year outside of option and pistol plays. When we are lining up in regular NFL formations, we are getting our butts kicked. Has Forester developed anyone for the Skins? No. Trent Williams is the only on that could be argued, but he is naturally athletic and aggressive. Everyone else on this line is easily replaceable. His track record is poor. Why did Shanny hire him???

I think we should look elsewhere this offseason for an O-line coach.

• Bob Slowik (Linebackers Coach): Really his name is all I should have to say. Just speaking his name should run chills down your spine. This is the guy that is in charge of getting young talent such as Kerrigan up to speed. Prior to the Skins, has this guy ever coached a 3-4 system? I don’t think so. In the 3-4 the linebackers are very valuable. So why leave them to be coached by a slug? We miss Lou Spanos more than people realize. This guy is currently killing one of our most valuable positions. He is a good friend of Shannahan’s. What scares me is that he is likely to stay on the roster no matter what. He may even move up to defensive coordinator one day. It would be a travesty.

Chicago Bears Defensive Coordinator

1993

Defensive rank: 3rd (defensive ranking goes solely on points scored) This is his best year.

1994

Defensive rank: 10th

1995

Defensive rank: 22nd

1996

Defensive rank: 12th

1997

Defensive rank: 29th

1998

Defensive rank: 23rd

Cleveland Browns Defensive Coordinator

1999

Defensive rank: 29th

********Not sure what he did between 1999-2004*********

Green Bay Packers Defensive Coordinator

2004

Defensive rank: 23rd

Denver Broncos

2005-2006/2007 (Defensive Backs Coach)

Keep in mind here, he coached a veteran Champ Bailey and John Lynch, both are Pro-Bowlers

2005

Defensive Passing Rank: 29th (based on Yards Per Game) Interceptions: 6th (based on ranking)

2006

Defensive Passing Rank: 21st Interceptions: 13th

2007 (DB Coach/ Defensive Coordinator)

Defensive Passing Rank: 21st Interceptions: 26th

Defensive Rank: 28th

2008 Defensive Coordinator

Defensive Rank: 30th

2009 (not sure where he was, out of the NFL?)

Washington Redskins Defensive Backs Coach

2010

Defensive Passing Rank: 31st Interceptions: 22nd

2011

Defensive Passing Rank: 12th Interceptions: 22nd

• Jacob Burney (Defensive Line Coach): I would be o.k. with him if we were running a 4-3 defense. However, we are not, and I am not sure that he has ever run a predominately 3-4 defensive front.

Denver Broncos Defensive Line Coach

2002

Defensive Rank: 15th Sacks: 10th

YPA: 9th (Rushing Avg.)

2003

Defensive Rank: 9th Sacks: 14th

YPA: 9th

2004

Defensive Rank: 9th Sacks: 14th

YPA: 9th

2005

Defensive Rank: 3rd Sacks: 29th

YPA: 19th

2006

Defensive Rank: 8th Sacks: 15th

YPA: 18th

2007

Defensive Rank: 28th Sacks: 16th

YPA: 30th

2008

Defensive Rank: 30th Sacks: 26th

YPA: 31st

2009 (Not sure where he was, out of the NFL?)

2010

Defensive Rank: 21st Sacks: 26th

YPA: 25th

2011

Defensive Rank: 21st Sacks: 10th

YPA: 18th

2012

Defensive Rank: 27th Sacks: 25th

YPA: 18th

•Jim Haslett: This name should be synonymous with Bob Slowik. He sucks!!!!!! I was willing to give him a chance a couple of years ago, but the more I have learned about football, the more I realize his schemes are horrible and he does not know how to run a 4-3 much less a 3-4. He lacks the balls to run the 3-4.

Wow! That was powerful.

[KingGibbs]

Wow! That was powerful.

Edit your post my friend. Do not quote large parts of posts.

[SWFLSkins]

Except Knoll was able to improve each year before that draft. Shanny is regressing. Like someone else said. If you take RGIII out of the equation, this team would potentially be one of the worst teams in the league and that's an indictment on Shanny.

Don't get me wrong, I WANT Shany to succeed. Too many signs point in the direction of him NOT succeeding.

I made the case in another thread and not much was made of it, He said before the season, this is the best depth since he has been here.

[KingGibbs]

Wow! That was powerful.

Edit your post my friend. Do not quote large parts of posts.

[FrFan]

You'd need some serious reward to waste a draft choice on Matthieu. You practically need to be on the FBI's most wanted list to get kicked off LSUs football team, at least for a meaningful game, and Matthieu has effectively accomplished that feat twice this year. I sure wouldn't want him in the locker room.

I appreciate the need for starters, but taking big risks can result in having no starters and no depth. The best way to get starters is to improve scouting, not take players with known attitude flaws. I was hoping we learned that with Haynesworth.

I suggested to improve our scouting in my post, implying to lower the Risk/reward on players I mentionned. All those guys are supposed to be 6th/7th rounders or UDFA, so I don't think they're going to cost much. I don't mean to draft all of them, but at least one: Armstrong and Reid is going to be UDFA depending on his recovery.

Janoris Jenkins STL 39th pick 2012: On June 1, 2009, Jenkins was arrested near a bar by Gainesville Police for fighting and resisting arrest after punching a man in the head around 2 AM. Police were forced to use a taser on Jenkins after fighting escalated. When asked why the fight started, Jenkins told police it was because he thought someone was going to steal the gold chain around his neck.

On April 23, 2011, Jenkins was cited by a Gainesville police officer and charged with misdemeanor marijuana possession. He was cited for the same violation in January 2011, and paid a $316 fine.

He was arrested in May 2009 during a downtown Gainesville fight that resulted in probation and community service. On April 26, 2011, he was dismissed by the Florida Gators football team, due to his second drug related arrest in 3 months."

Burfict had temper issues on the field, marijiana problems off the field, adding to a very poor combine outing. Nevertheless he turned his life around since being signed by the Browns as an UDFA, why couldn't we do what the Browns did ?

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

What the hell is with all this revisionist history/ignorance with the 4-3/3-4 switch?

2009: We inherited the following:

Brian Orakpo who couldn't even beat out an aging Renaldo Wynn because he was so bad defending the run, and played 4-3 OLB on running downs. That's what made him a prime candidate to become a 3-4 OLB - he'd spent his rookie campaign as a linebacker who rushed the passer. There would have been a bigger adjustment making him a full time 4-3 3 down lineman than making him a 3-4 OLB.

Albert Haynesworth: Clashed with the old DC, **** work ethic, **** attitude. Could any scheme had made him work? Sure, if he had wanted to get with the program. It was handled really badly.

A bunch of old/injured broken down guys.

London Fletcher

Rocky McIntosh who was always a marginal player

A broken down Shawn Springs (who was the 2nd best player in the secondary at worst every year he was here)

Dunno who was playing strong side OLB for us lol, but we had nothing there.

Carlos Rogers who wanted Revis money to stay

Laron Landry who later messed up his Achilles

Doughty

Kareem Moore

That was our vaunted 4-3 in 2009. By 2010, McIntosh had flamed out, Carlos Rogers wanted to be paid more than DeAngelo Hall (because if you overpay one guy, might as well overpay the other guy too lol), and Landry had a bum achilles that he never took care of, and now is a bum with the Jets.

Andre Carter was the interesting case - he had a 10 sack season and he was already a failure in the 3-4. I was upset at the time that we weren't shopping him. That was a dumb move.

I think it can be safely said that Shanahan is not very good at the management portion. He's a great offensive mind, one of the best ever. But when it comes to those "CEO traits" - picking and promoting talent, putting together a talented support staff, leadership, he leaves a lot to be desired. I think the Norv comparison is a bit more close to the mark than I'd like to realize. Maybe a rich man's Norv. Now, a rich man's Norv with a GM can win 9-11 games a year and be in the playoffs a lot, just like Norv has been in San Diego. But I think that while I really want him to stay around, I don't want him to be running the entire football operation, because outside QB/LT/RB, he's not very good picking the players, he's not very good at picking non-offensive coaches, etc.

[Fan since a Fetus]

What the hell is with all this revisionist history/ignorance with the 4-3/3-4 switch?

I had no problem with the switch because most of the front seven had to be replace anyway. Everyone thinks this put us behind, it didn't. We sucked up there anyways. The 4-3 defense under Zorn was not as good as people remember.

[DM72]

I can't believe people are willing to give a coach who's 14-27 an extension.

[KDawg]

I think its too early to make a real good educated guess or have a well founded opinion on Mike Shanahan.

At the end of the year, the team, the staff and the front office structure will need to be evaluated.

If the organizational decision is that we need to move on from Kyle Shanahan, Jim Haslett and Danny Smith, then it may be necessary to move on without Mike Shanahan.

If the organizational decision is that we can work with Kyle and get rid of the other two, then Mike Shanahan can stay on board.

If we have to replace nearly all of our assistants, then its time to replace the head coach. The head coach, in that case, is a figure head just for the purpose of creating the illusion of continuity, and the players and fans will see right through that. If we can keep the offensive staff for the most part in tact, then Mike Shanahan can easily stay on board. It's admittance of a mistake with the defense that he'd have to own up to. If I were Mike in that situation, I'd make sure I told the team something along the lines of,

"Look, I asked Jim to come in and run the 3-4 defense. It was something that we thought would be an effective approach to winning football games. While Jim didn't perform quite the way either one of us had hoped, I am the head coach of this football team and it's my job to put the team in position to win. I apologize to Jim Haslett for not doing what I needed to do, but we're going to try to right the ship here and I wish Jim all the luck in the world. He really has a bright defensive mind, and unfortunately it just didn't work here with us. With that said, I will continue to oversee the defensive side of the ball, just as any head coach would, but we're going to give [insert new DC name here] the keys to the defense to run whatever style he feels is appropriate for our personnel and his vision. Having spoken with him several times over the interview process, I believe in his plan and I will do everything I can to help him execute it with minimal interference. Thank you for your time, we're going to fix this."

[SuperBash]

Gus Bradley or Vic Fangio as HC to focus more on defense. Then find a OC that would work well with RG3 who is still familiar with ZBS. I assume Bradley or Fangio would pick his own DC but for the most part run the defense himself.

[theTruthTeller]

...Burfict had temper issues on the field, marijiana problems off the field, adding to a very poor combine outing. Nevertheless he turned his life around since being signed by the Browns as an UDFA, why couldn't we do what the Browns did ?

I'm not sure where you are getting your information on Burfict, he was projected as a top draft choice, but he was dropping like a rock durning his poor senior season. He was at best a mid-round pick by the end of his senior year. His combine scores did him in. He tested positive for marijuana at the combine, but had no arrest records or other off the field problems that I know of. The Bengals took him as a UFA, not the Browns. He was hurt mainly by rumors of a bad football attitude, not because he was a bad person.

Most of the credit to turning his life around should go to Burfict - the Bengals really don't have a reputation for changing bad attitudes. Of course, the turnaround has only been for a handful of months, so I wouldn't put him in the clear yet. I admire people who overcome their demons, so I wish him the best.

Matthieu, on the other hand, was in a position to return to the team next year, despite multiple drug test failures. Dealer quantities of marijuana were found in his apartment, although another former player appears to be taking the heat. Matthiew was a junior, and he is now in a terrible position - if he declares himself eligible, he will be undrafted, and if he doesn't, he won't be playing football anywhere next season. I wouldn't want him on the team if he agreed to play for nothing - the risk he presents is not his own failure, it's taking others down with him.

[KDawg]

Gus Bradley or Vic Fangio as HC to focus more on defense.

I disagree with this but not in its entirety. We need a coach that has a defensive vision, for sure. But that doesn't mean it has to be a defensive minded coach.

And when I say vision, I don't mean a guy who is locked into one type of defense. I mean a guy who is flexible and is an honest evaluator of his team. Who uses resources as he sees fit to make our football team better. Not bolstering the offense just to bolster the offense, but rather bolstering the team where we need to. And the word "need" there is fairly flexible in definition as well. "Need" may mean there's a guy on the draft board that is phenomenal, but we're set at this position. But we may need to pull the trigger on that player best player available style in order to improve the depth and dynamic of the team rather than reaching for a lesser talent.

But again, my overall point is I don't think we need a defensive minded coach. We need an "improvement" minded coach

[Riggo#44]

I think its quite simple. You don't trade what was traded for RGIII, and then cut loose the coach that acquired him one year in. That is a Cerrato move. You certainly don't fire Kyle Shanahan. If you still feel Kyle Shanahan needs to be fired after reading Reeking Paradigm's game analysis, I don't know what to tell you.

[SuperBash]

Would Kyle go if Mike went? From Kyle's POV, would you stay if welcomed after your Dad was let go?

[KDawg]

Would Kyle go if Mike went? From Kyle's POV, would you stay if welcomed after your Dad was let go?

I don't think it ever comes down to that. Either Kyle is let go or they both are.

I don't think Kyle has been bad enough to really warrant letting go of at this point, though. So I think Mike stays.

[Jumbo]

I don't think it ever comes down to that. Either Kyle is let go or they both are.

I don't think Kyle has been bad enough to really warrant letting go of at this point, though. So I think Mike stays.

As I just posted in Burg's thread--Mike & Kyle with stay. Haslett will go. No insider info, just my call (and I agree with those moves at this point).

[Lavarleap56]

The only guy on that list of free agents though who is a key starter is Fred Davis (assuming he is 100% healthy). Lich is a good guard but has had a so so year IMO and hopefully one of the guards we drafted last year is ready to step in. We do need to replace the guys who may leave but they are depth guys and there will be options out there in free agency and the draft to do that.

I'm more concerned with where we find a starting corner, starting FS, starting RT, starting DE who can apply pass rush inside. Thats 4 key starters we need to find and since we dont have a first round pick we have to be very active in free agency - its a big ask to find 4 key starters in one offseason with no first round pick. This assumes Orakpo can come back at 100% which is not a sure thing as well.

Agree but that wasnt the point. Not a lot of money and a lot of roster spots to fill. Your more concerned about all the starters but if this has taught you anything, have to have quality depth.

[Hitman21ST]

As I just posted in Burg's thread--Mike & Kyle with stay. Haslett will go. No insider info, just my call (and I agree with those moves at this point).

That's what I think also. Just a feeling. With the way our O has taken off this year, I think that bought M&K at least another 2 years.