skinny21 Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 We have no defensive secondary... they knew our safeties sucked going into the season... It's a passing league and they bet the house that the front 7 would get enough pressure to negate or supplement the lack of talent in the secondary. They lost everything on that wager... Hard to tell if it was really a gamble though.. they picked up 4 safeties to address the position and only one has seen the field. Sure, Jackson was a gamble, but they backed that plan up with Williams and Berstine. Williams has serious issues, but if he was good enough to be a backup on a the 49ers, then he was at least good enough for backup duty for us. You could say they gambled on the front 7, but they played quite well last year. Add in a Jenkins returning, and Riley, Kerrigan and Nield with a year under their collective belt and it seemed like a good wager. Probably to all of us, no? Worst criticism you could level is that we lack(ed) an elite player. No one could have foreseen such a dropoff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cphil006 Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Hard to tell if it was really a gamble though.. they picked up 4 safeties to address the position and only one has seen the field. Sure, Jackson was a gamble, but they backed that plan up with Williams and Berstine. Williams has serious issues, but if he was good enough to be a backup on a the 49ers, then he was at least good enough for backup duty for us. You could say they gambled on the front 7, but they played quite well last year. Add in a Jenkins returning, and Riley, Kerrigan and Nield with a year under their collective belt and it seemed like a good wager. Probably to all of us, no? Worst criticism you could level is that we lack(ed) an elite player. No one could have foreseen such a dropoff. 49ers have a good defense. Perhaps better without Williams? He was a back-up there and he was projected to be a back-up here, not a starter which is what has happened. He does have serious issues. Keeping his feet planted while Victor Cruz runs by him. I don't think they gambled on the front 7, I think they gambled that the front 7 would hide the atrocious secondary. It can't anymore since teams have figured out our crappy system. We are dead last in the league in pass defense. We're decent against the run... Some of this is talent, some of this is coaching... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urblessed00 Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I'm not usually a doom and gloomer.....and am usually a proponent for stability....especially with this team. All of that being said, I'm off the Shanahan bus. It's not going to happen here. The skins now look like his Broncos teams late in his run there. No defense. I also may be in the minority, but I think this reliance upon running almost a copy of the Baylor offense is stunting Robert Griffin's development as a passer. I don't want Cam Newton 2.0 here. In my best case scenario, I would hope they would come out of the bye week and switch the offense up to run what we have seen this offense run as it's base the last two years....sprinkled in...with only a few traces of the read option. However, I'm sure that won't be the case. I don't want the Shanashams messing up the first franchise qb we've had here in ions...just for the sake of some cheap wins on a resume. I would rather cut bait now, and start a new offense now....than give him another year in this hybrid offense and further stunt his growth. That's just my opinion. I don't have any particular coach in mind...............I just see how this trainwreck is going to end. If this team is going to ever make it back to a deep run in the playoffs..let alone the super bowl...it won't be a shanahan coaching the team. Again, just my opinion. Let's move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DM72 Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I also may be in the minority, but I think this reliance upon running almost a copy of the Baylor offense is stunting Robert Griffin's development as a passer. It is. It's almost like they don't think RG3's good enough to be a legitimate NFL QB. Really sad if you ask me. Only the Skins can get a first class playmaker and mess it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrecker Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 We're decent against the run... We were until the last 2 weeks. It appears they have figured that out also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
authentic Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 :rant: What would you do If you were Bruce Allen and had the keys to the Redskins Kingdom? The time is coming to make a decision that will have a greater impact on this franchise then firing Vinny or hiring Shanahan... This decision could determine if Robert Griffin III is able to meet his potential OR fall short with the likes of Jason Campbell. What would your plan bee if you did push the eject button on Mike Shanahan ? With Shanny its all conditional on how we finish out the season. If we finish strong, i would consider an extention in the offseason. If its more of the same, then he would be hanging on a thin string. But besides Shanny and Haz for a second. I would also consider revamping the scouting department. Don't get me wrong i think Scott Campbell and M. Brown have a good reputation around the league, but our track record in aquiring top-end talent since they've been here speaks for its self. Now to be fair to them, i don't know the complete dynamics of the decision making. From what i understand Shanny is utilizing their intel like never before. But if i where Bruce i would give careful consideration of upgrading that department. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
authentic Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I'm not usually a doom and gloomer.....and am usually a proponent for stability....especially with this team. All of that being said, I'm off the Shanahan bus. . I'm one of Shanny's biggest supporters. But at this point, hear you, i'm no longer supporting Shanny unconditionally. I wouldn't even be against ousting him if we don't improve the second half of the season. if we end up 4-12 or 5-11, then i say just fire him.. and i mean that in all sincerety. i'm tired of the damn losing. :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forehead Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I always enjoy stats, so I'm doing a basic evaluation here which is (Total Offense Rank + Total Defense Rank) / 2. That way, as long as the offense is improving more than the defense is regressing, we can at least say that overall, there's minute improvement. It might be all we have. Let's take a look at the numbers: 2012: (Through 9 games) Offense = #8, Defense = #27, Total = 35/2 = 17.5. We average out to a middle of the pack team that may have had a bad break or two, which makes sense. We're not as hopeless as the Chiefs or others of their ilk at this point. This will be a lot more clear after next week when everyone has had their bye week and there are no "games played" discrepencies. 2011: Offense = 13, Defense = 16, Total = 29/2 = 14.5. We projected slightly above average in the rankings last season yet finished 5-11. 2010: Offense = 18, Defense = 31, Total = 49/2 = 24.5. We projected as a bottom 1/4 team this season and finished 6-10, which seems appropriate. What this tells me is that Shanahan took over a ****-storm, which we know is basically true. He got a lot of the trouble personalities off the team (Landry, Devin Thomas, Clinton Portis to some degree, etc.) and improved the team by approximately 10 spots in year two, yet the records didn't reflect those improvements. I suspect some of this had to do with Rex Grossman's propensity for interceptions at the worst of times, and throwing a lot to play catch up, but overall, there was significant player improvement with nothing to show for it in the win column. This year, we've regressed slightly, about three ranking spots, and we know where the problem lies because the offense has improved again. Look at those numbers....we've gone from #18, to #13, to #8 currently, and due to scheduling and bye weeks, we could very easily have the #5 rated offense after this week is over. The defense went from #31, to #16, and now back to #27....hey, it's still a net gain of 4 spots!!! Though to be fair and balanced, two of the teams behind us on defense are on bye this week, so that number could get slightly worse. Some of it can be chalked up to missing Orakpo and Carriker, some maybe to missing Landry when he was healthy. Say what you will, the guy intimidated people when he played. It would be interesting to see how this team fared (and how much looser our CB's might play) is we have Meriweather and Tanard Jackson back there, but that will have to be learned next season. The three most important things for a successful football team are supposed to be 1) Getting a franchise QB, 2) Protecting him, and 3) Getting to the other teams QB. After that, hopefully everything falls into place. Shanahan has given us #1 in spades. He also drafted Trent Williams over Russell Okung (a serious argument on this board) and shored up the most important spot on the line, Griffin's blind side. Lichtenstieger and Montgomery are serviceable pieces; hell Montgomery has actually looked really good. Chester isn't too bad, though RT remains a sieve. As to #3, we're missing Orakpo, but he and Kerrigan led a defense that racked up 41 sacks last season, tied for 10th in the NFL. And they're both young. Again, it seems to me like the most important pieces are in place. The rankings generally reflect some bad luck over the past few seasons; having a player like RG3 and growing a team around him....well, that sort of luck has a habit of changing. I'd keep Shanahan, I still think there's some real potential here, and this season was always about Griffin getting his feet wet and developing, in my mind anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Forehead, The bad part about your ranking is that you're using the old yardage formula for determining rankings. Therefore any number you come up with in the end is, in my opinion, flawed. I think DVOR rankings from football outsiders is one of the best measures you can use and would be slightly more accurate, but still, it's tough to come up with a real ranking based on statistics. But I also love stats and I applaud your effort. One minor quip... You said the three most important things on a football team are: "The three most important things for a successful football team are supposed to be 1) Getting a franchise QB, 2) Protecting him, and 3) Getting to the other teams QB" I think it's even simpler than that: Throw, block, catch, tackle and run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I think it's even simpler than that: Throw, block, catch, tackle and run. I think in the modern game you have to add in rush the passer and cover. Which is where our problems start ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forehead Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I like Football Outsiders too, but I do have to occasionally do work while I'm "at work:)" so I just went with ESPN stats. I was still shocked that based on yardage we had a 14.5 ranking last year and still only one 5 games. That has to be pretty rare, I'd think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I think in the modern game you have to add in rush the passer and cover. Which is where our problems start ..... Rushing the passer can fall into running and tackling, can't it? Covering can fall into "running". Yes, running would be a tremendously simplified version of what coverage is, but football is still the same. Modern, old time, ect. It's gotten more complex technique wise, but the basics are still the basics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Rushing the passer can fall into running and tackling, can't it? Only when you actually get there! I do agree though that football. at essence is a simple game and that sometimes at NFL level the fundamentals get overlooked or taken for granted. The standard of tackling for example is shocking league wide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Only when you actually get there!I do agree though that football. at essence is a simple game and that sometimes at NFL level the fundamentals get overlooked or taken for granted. The standard of tackling for example is shocking league wide. That's more to my point. At it's essence its a very simple game. The complexities are there, sure, but you need to have the basics in order to excel in the complexities. It's like going right to calculus without mastering addition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinny21 Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 49ers have a good defense. Perhaps better without Williams? He was a back-up there and he was projected to be a back-up here, not a starter which is what has happened. He does have serious issues. Keeping his feet planted while Victor Cruz runs by him.I don't think they gambled on the front 7, I think they gambled that the front 7 would hide the atrocious secondary. It can't anymore since teams have figured out our crappy system. We are dead last in the league in pass defense. We're decent against the run... Some of this is talent, some of this is coaching... My point about Williams was just that if he was good enough to be a backup on a very talented defense, it seems like like less of a gamble to bring him here, especially since he wasn't 'given' the starting role. I guess my question is this - how else could the organization have changed the secondary that would not have been perceived as a gamble? A former pro-bowler (for what that's worth), a draft pick, a backup from a talented team, and a guy that had 'flashed' on another team rejoining his ex-coach. There were question marks, but I don't see how they could have assumed that 3/4 guys would miss this much time, and that Williams would play as bad as he has. My contention this offseason was that we just needed one (or two) of these guys to pan out since we still had Gomes and Doughty. I have trouble blaming Shanahan (or whoever) for all 4 acquisitions being failures to this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrecker Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I have trouble blaming Shanahan (or whoever) for all 4 acquisitions being failures to this point. I wonder how many other teams were persuing any of those 4 as potential starters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tibbidoe Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Shanahan has been handcuffed from the start. McNabb was the biggest mistake he made, but there have been limitations that have kept him from making all the moves he's wanted to. 2010 - "Uncapped" year, very limited FA options 2011 - Lockout, shortened offseason 2012 - Capgate, very limited FA options Not a full offseason/FA period since he's been here, and, as of right now, next offseason won't be either. I say the only things that specifically need to be changed are finding upgrades from Jim Haslett and Danny Smith. Otherwise, let him ride it out and worry about an extension later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Where I am losing patience is Mike is having finally gotten a QB, we have failing pass pro. He had 2-3 years to get a OL in place that to me, should be able run and pass block. It is imperative to protect a QB and I see RG3 getting hit far too quickly when passing from the pocket. He seems fixated on run blocking ability, over pass blocking ability, when searching for linemen. Yet it is becoming a passing league more and more, and no matter how good a coach thinks his team is, they will have to pass the ball, when the defense knows it. He has made himself very dependent on the run. But then he goes into the season, with only 2 running backs. Can anyone imagine where we would be without the home run selection of Morris? Our offense resembles a college team with him of the game. In his 3rd year with a stud QB, we should be dynamic enough to be a pass first team. We are very one dimensional and I am not sure Garcon coming back changes that. On his 88 yd TD, RG3 got popped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redskins4ever Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I don't like the idea of Mike Shanahan drafting the players, signing the free agents, and making the trades. He should be the head coach only and Bruce Allen should be the man making all personnel decisions. If the Redskins are going to continue to run this 3-4 defense then they have to do a better job of scouting natural 3-4 personnel instead of choosing players that mostly fit the 4-3 and plugging them into the 3-4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogofWar1 Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Where I am losing patience is Mike is having finally gotten a QB, we have failing pass pro. He had 2-3 years to get a OL in place that to me, should be able run and pass block. It is imperative to protect a QB and I see RG3 getting hit far too quickly when passing from the pocket. I think Oline is a little weak, but that's mainly RT, which would have been addressed if not for certain Mara-based interference. The other problem is RB blocking, which again, was addressed via Hightower, but he got injured, and no one we've tried since then has been good at it. On the whole, the four guys left of the RT have done ok this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan2k Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Shanahan has been handcuffed from the start. McNabb was the biggest mistake he made, but there have been limitations that have kept him from making all the moves he's wanted to.2010 - "Uncapped" year, very limited FA options 2011 - Lockout, shortened offseason 2012 - Capgate, very limited FA options Not a full offseason/FA period since he's been here, and, as of right now, next offseason won't be either. I say the only things that specifically need to be changed are finding upgrades from Jim Haslett and Danny Smith. Otherwise, let him ride it out and worry about an extension later. Everyone has had to face this problem. The colts replaced 47 out of 52 players in 1 year on their roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born In 93 Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Move on. Not even a tough decision, look at our records since hes been here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss_Hogg Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 After listening to the podcast, it's time to move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50yrSKINSfan Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Have to fire him at the end of the season unless he turns it around. Last year on his contract means nothing if he does not get a extension. Team will not follow him. ---------- Post added November-13th-2012 at 06:33 PM ---------- I think if he was a good coach he would have good assistants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselPwr44 Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 We have no defensive secondary... they knew our safeties sucked going into the season... It's a passing league and they bet the house that the front 7 would get enough pressure to negate or supplement the lack of talent in the secondary. They lost everything on that wager... Losing 36 million in cap had nothing to do with it? Cool story though..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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