The Mess going on at Penn state Thread

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Gricar

Don't read too much into this. He went missing seven years after he had any contact with Sandusky.

[KingGibbs]

I am curious as to what you would do, because quite frankly I don't know what I would do.

We used to have this scumbag that lived up the street from us. One day I was walking my dog past his house and it sounded like he was beating hios wife. I called the Police right then and there. The cops came and interviewed both parties while I waited outside to talk to the cop afterward. He said she wouldn't press charges and there was nothing they could do. I told the cop that it was BS.

Not too long after that my daughter and I went into his backyard and freed a dog that was tied up under their deck 24/7 and it looked like it was malnoursihed. I called the cops AND animal control. As they were putting the dog in the van the scumbag came up the street. He stopped his car, jumped out and acted like a tough guy. He asked who called the cops and I told him I did.

Looking at the above, what do you thinkI would do if I knew a poor child was being molested (raped)?

[China]

This is just to sad, on too many levels, first and foremost for the victims and their families. It is also sad to see people bicker about who is liable, what this means for PSU football or JoePa, when the real issue here is young boys being RAPED. I Caps'd that word to remind people who forget what the real issue is here.

Sandusky was working for the charity where he stalked his victims for over 34 years, and to think that there is only 8 victims is naive at best. I read the GJ testimony, and it sounds as if Sandusky had his routine pretty set, something that could only have happened if he did in fact make it routine. I doubt all victims would be willing or able to come forward, so here is hoping Sandusky uses his faith to repent ALL of his sins, and hopefully offer some closure to victims. If he does not repent fully, I doubt we will ever know the full extent of his crimes.

Yeah, not only are there probably many more victims through that charity he was involved with for so many years, but apparently the Sanduskys fostered a lot of children. I wonder how many of them were victims as well.

[RonArtest15]

LBK do you have a link to the story about the ADA going missing?

---------- Post added November-7th-2011 at 01:26 PM ----------

Okay... so what other motivation was there to cover up child rapes by this sicko?

And try to actually READ everyone's attachments and READ the Grand Jury Indictment before you comment. Several of the accusations by the victims took place when Sandusky was the defensive coordinator.

And to piggyback off of what you're saying...my problem is in the fact that no one raised an eyebrow w. Sandusky STILL being around the PSU campus after being accused. Joe Paterno, if anything, is negligent. Lives have been ruined. How do you look at Sandusky walking around PSU in the wake of what he was accused of and not shake your head or wonder WHY he's still allowed on campus? Forget Joe Paterno (or anyone else not facting jail) not going to the police after speaking to the AD....what's his excuse for not having any morals and essentially turning a blind eye?

*Also, why didn't he pepper the graduate assistant over what he saw in the showers? He stated that the GA was distraught, but yet he didn't get to the bottom of it....WOW. SMH

[Destino]

What would you do if you saw a minor sexually assaulted, right in front of you? I'd hope that you'd rescue the child and immediately report it to the police. Why stand there then walk away when you know that something that should never happen is indeed happening without doing something to help the child? That's what boggles my mind in all this.

What I'd like to believe:

Call 911 and stop the assault. Take the victim away from the scene and report everything I saw to the proper authorities.

What is more likely:

I'd freak out and attack the rapist...

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

It's not just that Sandusky was wondering around the Penn State campus. He had unfettered access to a high school, and was a volunteer assistant coach. And Penn State knew this. If there were fears around Sandusky in '98 and '99, shouldn't Penn State have sent some kind of back-channel warning to the high school at the very least?

[DC9]

We used to have this scumbag that lived up the street from us. One day I was walking my dog past his house and it sounded like he was beating hios wife. I called the Police right then and there. The cops came and interviewed both parties while I waited outside to talk to the cop afterward. He said she wouldn't press charges and there was nothing they could do. I told the cop that it was BS.

Not too long after that my daughter and I went into his backyard and freed a dog that was tied up under their deck 24/7 and it looked like it was malnoursihed. I called the cops AND animal control. As they were putting the dog in the van the scumbag came up the street. He stopped his car, jumped out and acted like a tough guy. He asked who called the cops and I told him I did.

Looking at the above, what do you thinkI would do if I knew a poor child was being molested (raped)?

Wow, I can picture this guy in my head. He looks to hit for the cycle in the dirtbag league.

[Forehead]

Well, most people who read the college forum are aware that I'm a big time Penn State homer...I'm at a loss right now. That grand jury file was a difficult read; I stopped part way through victim #2. I've been slowly starting to accept the fact, from a recruiting standpoint if nothing else, that maybe it was about time JoePa hung it up, and I'd hate for this to be the lasting memory of his legacy, but it looks like we might be headed that way. Sadly, I've bought my 18 month old daughter a bunch of Penn State stuff, and my not yet born son already had an outfit waiting for him in his closet. I can't imagine putting the logo on either of them right now.

On another note, who is the guy that said no male should ever coach girls? That's incredibly close-minded, it happens in thousands of softball leagues, girls soccer leagues, etc, all over the country. If my daughter shows an inclination for sports when she's older, I'll probably volunteer to coach as I very much enjoy it. Are you going to pull your kids off teams and demand they be re-assigned based strictly off the gender of the coach?

[The Tris]

It's not just that Sandusky was wondering around the Penn State campus. He had unfettered access to a high school' date=' and was a volunteer assistant coach. And Penn State knew this. If there were fears around Sandusky in '98 and '99, shouldn't Penn State have sent some kind of back-channel warning to the high school at the very least?[/quote']

@DanWetzel: Sources: Sandusky worked out in Penn State weight room multiple times last week http://bit.ly/uj3EUX

Clearly not a soul at PSU wasn't interested in doing the first thing about this.

[Spartacus87]

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news?slug=dw-wetzel_sandusky_penn_state_presence_last_week110711

Embattled former defensive coordinator Jerry Sandusky continued to be a presence around the Penn State football program up to his arrest Saturday on child molestation charges, including working out multiple times in the teamâs weight room just last week, according to multiple sources within the football program.

The sources, who asked to remain unnamed due to the nature of the scandal, said they saw Sandusky working out in the Lasch Football Building last week.

[DC9]

@DanWetzel: Sources: Sandusky worked out in Penn State weight room multiple times last week http://bit.ly/uj3EUX

Clearly not a soul at PSU wasn't interested in doing the first thing about this.

He is clearly crazy. Just crazy.

Forehead,

I am very sorry for you bro. It's a special thing to pass a team down from generation to generation. I can't offer any words of encouragement other than hopefully we stay the course on this rebuild and we our kids can be proud of our Redskins the way we were.

[Busch1724]

LBK do you have a link to the story about the ADA going missing?

---------- Post added November-7th-2011 at 01:26 PM ----------

Okay... so what other motivation was there to cover up child rapes by this sicko?

And try to actually READ everyone's attachments and READ the Grand Jury Indictment before you comment. Several of the accusations by the victims took place when Sandusky was the defensive coordinator.

I have read it this morning. It is no coincidence that Sandusky "retired" when he did. Reading the documents also prove Joe was not lying at any point, unlike other university officials higher on the chain of command than Joe. The point everyone misses here is that the university is not run by Joe Paterno. Oddly enough (sarcasm) he has bosses and went to his superiors as was required.

Hindsight in all instances is 20/20. 9/11 conspriacy theorists, Katrina and FEMA are the perfect examples. I'm sure Joe is thinking he should have followed up on it better. However, I think Joe's record and candor over the years proves he did the best he could at the time.

What does not show up in the grand jury testimony (and not important in this case), was maybe Joe did follow up on it and his AD each time said the investigation is ongoing and can't reveal anything at the moment.

This story has been brewing in this area for quite some time. What I'm more confused about is the lack of action by authorities when notified in 1998. I guess they felt they didn't have enough evidence to charge Jerry.

[Heisenberg]

@DanWetzel: Sources: Sandusky worked out in Penn State weight room multiple times last week http://bit.ly/uj3EUX

Clearly not a soul at PSU wasn't interested in doing the first thing about this.

Indefensible.

Heads (all of them) should roll.

EDIT: I'm a pretty big follower of Penn State (many friends went there) but I'm not quite sure how anyone is defending Paterno now.

At the very least he was very morally irresponsible.

[DM72]

Well, most people who read the college forum are aware that I'm a big time Penn State homer...I'm at a loss right now. That grand jury file was a difficult read; I stopped part way through victim #2. I've been slowly starting to accept the fact, from a recruiting standpoint if nothing else, that maybe it was about time JoePa hung it up, and I'd hate for this to be the lasting memory of his legacy, but it looks like we might be headed that way. Sadly, I've bought my 18 month old daughter a bunch of Penn State stuff, and my not yet born son already had an outfit waiting for him in his closet. I can't imagine putting the logo on either of them right now.

On another note, who is the guy that said no male should ever coach girls? That's incredibly close-minded, it happens in thousands of softball leagues, girls soccer leagues, etc, all over the country. If my daughter shows an inclination for sports when she's older, I'll probably volunteer to coach as I very much enjoy it. Are you going to pull your kids off teams and demand they be re-assigned based strictly off the gender of the coach?

I wan't really wasn't saying males shouldn't coach females in all sports. I used gymnastics as an example because that's a sport where the coach has to touch female gymnast in ways that could be uncomfortable. You don't have that issue in soccer and softball.

[Forehead]

I wan't really wasn't saying males shouldn't coach females in all sports. I used gymnastics as an example because that's a sport where the coach has to touch female gymnast in ways that could be uncomfortable. You don't have that issue in soccer and softball.

All right, my mistake, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying no male coaches ever. On another note, I hope my daughter has no interest in being a gymnast. Not so much due to what you mentioned as the ridiculous amounts of work/schedule they go through, even as four/five year olds.

[The Tris]

EDSBS as usual had a great take.

Penn State, Jerry Sandusky, And Joe Paterno: The Law Only Covers So Much

By Spencer Hall - Featured Contributor

Everyone involved in the Jerry Sandusky sexual abuse case is culpable for not acting upon their moral responsibility to alert the police in 2002. And as a result, they should all be fired, including legendary coach Joe Paterno.

Nov 7, 2011 - I don't really need outrage here. Facts should be enough for you. Penn State Athletic Director Tim Curley and VP of Finance and Operations Gary Schultz have been accused of perjuring themselves in a grand jury investigation of sexual abuse involving Jerry Sandusky, former Penn State defensive coordinator. Sandusky allegedly abused a child within the walls of the Penn State football facility with a third party witness looking on in horror in the year 2002. This was one of eight cases listed in the grand jury finding issued by the State of Pennsylvania. At least one happened.

In response, Penn State did not call the police. They did other things, but they did not call the police. Joe Paterno did not call the police, and Tim Curley did not call the police, and Gary Schultz did not call the police. The graduate assistant who witnessed the act did not call the police. Penn State President Graham Spanier did not call the police. A reported child molester and rapist was living and working in their midst, and working in a program that brought him into contact with boys, and not one person called the police.

The legal case here covers that which is legally enforceable. We live in a society of laws, and those laws have limits. All of the people involved here who should have called the police instead reported what they were supposed to under Pennsylvania law, to a certain extent. The failure came at the top of the chain of command. Curley and Schultz short-circuited the proper course of action, protected Sandusky and the reputation of the university, and behaved in a manner not consistent with the law in doing so and then lying about it to a grand jury. They are charged with third-degree felonies, and have already both lost their jobs over the matter. Sandusky will most likely die in prison.

That is what is covered by the law.

The rest is a matter of morality. The reporting occurred in 2002. At that point, if someone had called the police, Sandusky could have been caught. There is a section dated "Victim One" in the grand jury finding. This case of abuse unfolded from 2005 to 2009. This case happened after 2002, when Sandusky should have been reported, and then prosecuted, and then placed in prison after a fair trial.

Not one person called the police.

This is not the army. There is a chain of command in places like Penn State, but ultimately a nation of laws is governed by citizens, not cogs in an institution. Every person who knew about this and passed it along is culpable in the ongoing abuse of children by Sandusky. That is a painful thing to write, but every person who knew something and turned away is culpable--even those not named in this case, whose names will never be known, and who let an institution's assumed weight blunt their moral sensibilities.

There is one person who did the right thing: Steven Turchetta, the high school football coach and assistant principal who reported Sandusky's inappropriate behavior, had him banned from the school district, and whose allegations led to a grand jury investigation.

Everyone else involved took half-measures. Those people include the grad assistant who reported the abuse to Paterno, but who never bothered to follow up with the case despite watching a young boy sodomized by someone he knew to be working with children on a regular basis. Paterno reported the allegations upward, but then seemingly forgot about them, allowing Sandusky to walk free. Schultz and Curley deliberately hid bad news from their superior like toddlers stuffing soiled pants behind furniture to avoid being caught with a mess on their hands.

The law only covers so much. Morality covers the rest. I tend to be very permissive with the definition of morality, but there are a few things that are non-negotiables. Your person is sacrosanct. Your property should be safe. Your basic rights should be guaranteed.

At the bare minimum, a child being raped by anyone should be reported to the police. This might make me a feather-headed idealist, but it seems like the least you can do for your fellow citizen. Consensus may be hard to come by in our nation, but this seems like something we can agree on as a people. If you see a child being raped, you should call the police.

This kind of bold thinking may seem obvious to some. It was not to more than one person at Penn State, people who assumed that the university had some kind of other law that overlapped with Jerry Sandusky law, and with Paterno law, or whatever other pseudo-legality they thought kept them from calling the police and saying, "I think we have a child molester working in and around our program."

And yet no one said anything. If everyone at Penn State is okay with this, then the heads stop rolling here. If you're not, then you demand the resignations of everyone involved. This includes Joe Paterno, who knew, but then abandoned his moral responsibility to the cold dictates of the org chart.

[DC9]

I have read it this morning. It is no coincidence that Sandusky "retired" when he did. Reading the documents also prove Joe was not lying at any point, unlike other university officials higher on the chain of command than Joe. The point everyone misses here is that the university is not run by Joe Paterno. Oddly enough (sarcasm) he has bosses and went to his superiors as was required.

Hindsight in all instances is 20/20. 9/11 conspriacy theorists, Katrina and FEMA are the perfect examples. I'm sure Joe is thinking he should have followed up on it better. However, I think Joe's record and candor over the years proves he did the best he could at the time.

What does not show up in the grand jury testimony (and not important in this case), was maybe Joe did follow up on it and his AD each time said the investigation is ongoing and can't reveal anything at the moment.

This story has been brewing in this area for quite some time. What I'm more confused about is the lack of action by authorities when notified in 1998. I guess they felt they didn't have enough evidence to charge Jerry.

Yes, I am stunned about the lack of action in 1998, too.

And stunned by the Chief of Penn State Police telling an ADA to "close the case."

And stunned that you aren't the least bit interested in how JoePa says that McQuerry never said that the sctions were "sexual" but in the meeting with the AD all of a sudden he said that they were "sexual?" How does someone see that and NOT say it was sexual? And how does someone hear that and continue to allow them access to their facilities.

And if JoePa "forced" retirement on Sandusky, like you imply above, in 1998; then why didn't he flip **** on Sandusky in 2002 and ban him from the University?

You're ****ing kidding me guy...

[Kilmer17]

There's a special place in hell for all of those who were involved.

[Popeman38]

I read the GJ indictment, a TON of articles, and have thought about this since I found out. I refrained from posting so as not to offend any PSU alums/fans. Following is what my thoughts are:

1) Paterno, and the entire PSU coaching staff should be fired

2) Any PSU employee who had knowledge of this activity and who failed to report it the police should be fired

3) PSU football should receive the death penalty

I know, #3 is going to get me skewered. But think about this: if paying a player is grounds for killing a program (SMU), and what happened at Miami is grounds for discussing the death penalty, and what happened at Baylor with a murdered player was grounds to basically apply a death penalty type punishment, how is this not grounds for killing a program? You are an institution that is charged with the welfare of young people. You host recruiting trips fro HS seniors (minors), giving them tours of the football facilities a ten year old child was raped in. The entity that perpetrated that activity, and failed to report first hand accounts of child molestation, should be rendered dead. As a father, PSU will be on the black list for life. A VP had knowledge of what happened. They simply suspended Sandusky from bringing kids to the facilities, so instead he took up using a hotel.

At any other job in the world, an assistant manager being seen having anal sex with a 10 year old boy would result in immediate police reaction. PSU abviosly, and callously, placed the well standing reputation of its football team above the well being of multiple minors. For that, football should be ended at PSU. If you think that is too harsh, I have one question for you:

What is grounds for the death penalty for a college sport?

[DM72]

I just want to why is others getting charged and not Paterno? He knew but didn't go to the police either.

[Forehead]

I know this isn't even close to important, but on another note, I wonder how this affects the current team. Penn State is a shocking 8-1 right now, two games up in their division with three to play, arguably the three most difficult teams on their schedule. They had a bye last week and now that this broke, they have to try and concentrate in practice with all this swirling around. None of them played for Sandusky, but Paterno of course is there, as well as McQueary. And it occurs to me, these kids are all in their late teens, early 20's, so they could have been involved in youth camps around the time of these allegations.

I do wonder how the team will respond with all this going on...insulate themselves and pull this out or fold under all the outside pressure/distractions and stumble the rest of the way.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I just want to why is others getting charged and not Paterno? He knew but didn't go to the police either.

Techincally, he did what the law required him to do.

Suddenly, Joe Paterno is just a cog in the chain of command and he has "supreriors."

Granted, Paterno really hasn't had to answer to anyone since 1982 but ignore that.

[The Tris]

If there is ever a situation for the death penalty, this is it. Worse than what was going on at SMU.

If it's not used here, I'm not sure when it ever would be used again.

[DC9]

I do wonder how the team will respond with all this going on...insulate themselves and pull this out or fold under all the outside pressure/distractions and stumble the rest of the way.

A team with circled wagons is a dangerous team. But with young kids it's hard to tell, this is a lot to process and not long to do it.

[TimmySmith]

What is grounds for the death penalty for a college sport?

I believe you have to lack influential alumni and tradition. This rules out PSU for the death penalty.

Although JoPa will be dead in a year if your remove him from HC so it is sort of a death penalty. More skeletons will emerge so I would not pass judgement just yet.