The Mess going on at Penn state Thread

[Elessar78]

I read the GJ indictment, a TON of articles, and have thought about this since I found out. I refrained from posting so as not to offend any PSU alums/fans. Following is what my thoughts are:

1) Paterno, and the entire PSU coaching staff should be fired

2) Any PSU employee who had knowledge of this activity and who failed to report it the police should be fired

3) PSU football should receive the death penalty

I know, #3 is going to get me skewered. But think about this: if paying a player is grounds for killing a program (SMU), and what happened at Miami is grounds for discussing the death penalty, and what happened at Baylor with a murdered player was grounds to basically apply a death penalty type punishment, how is this not grounds for killing a program? You are an institution that is charged with the welfare of young people. You host recruiting trips fro HS seniors (minors), giving them tours of the football facilities a ten year old child was raped in. The entity that perpetrated that activity, and failed to report first hand accounts of child molestation, should be rendered dead. As a father, PSU will be on the black list for life. A VP had knowledge of what happened. They simply suspended Sandusky from bringing kids to the facilities, so instead he took up using a hotel.

At any other job in the world, an assistant manager being seen having anal sex with a 10 year old boy would result in immediate police reaction. PSU abviosly, and callously, placed the well standing reputation of its football team above the well being of multiple minors. For that, football should be ended at PSU. If you think that is too harsh, I have one question for you:

What is grounds for the death penalty for a college sport?

I'm surprised the NCAA hasn't even uttered a word yet.

[StillUnknown]

I don't see how Paterno survives this, and he shouldn't.

[Corcaigh]

I just want to why is others getting charged and not Paterno? He knew but didn't go to the police either.

Not only did the others do nothing, they lied under oath about it.

Telling college police is the right thing to do, FIRST. But when no action took place Paterno should have gone outside the college. But as others have noted, in PA his legal obligation may have been met, even if he fell far short of his moral obligation.

And it bothers me when some commentators are using phrases such as "inappropriate touching". When ten year-olds are being anally raped, it's offensive to use such euphemisms.

[Busch1724]

Yes, I am stunned about the lack of action in 1998, too.

And stunned by the Chief of Penn State Police telling an ADA to "close the case."

And stunned that you aren't the least bit interested in how JoePa says that McQuerry never said that the sctions were "sexual" but in the meeting with the AD all of a sudden he said that they were "sexual?" How does someone see that and NOT say it was sexual? And how does someone hear that and continue to allow them access to their facilities.

And if JoePa "forced" retirement on Sandusky, like you imply above, in 1998; then why didn't he flip **** on Sandusky in 2002 and ban him from the University?

You're ****ing kidding me guy...

Agreed, but is Joe responsible for who comes and goes on the campus? I think the AD would be more responsible and negligent for who comes and goes on campus. I'm not trying to absolve Joe of everthing, but everyone is calling for his head. I think that might be an overreaction at this point.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Agreed, but is Joe responsible for who comes and goes on the campus? I think the AD would be more responsible and negligent for who comes and goes on campus. I'm not trying to absolve Joe of everthing, but everyone is calling for his head. I think that might be an overreaction at this point.

Joe runs PSU. If he wanted someone in his program investigated, it happens.

---------- Post added November-7th-2011 at 04:08 PM ----------

I'm surprised the NCAA hasn't even uttered a word yet.

This falls outside their purview, I think. The NCAA regulates athletes, not coaches.

[WALEOVECHKIN]

Sickening:

SPORTSbyBROOKS SPORTSbyBROOKS

Sandusky, charged w/ 40 child sex crimes, seen on TV outside State College home today in Penn St jacket. Free man.

Here's the link to the pic of him today

Picture

[Heisenberg]

http://www.lostlettermen.com/gma-confronts-jerry-sandusky-at-home/

That's a clip of Good Morning America confronting him at home this morning.

[GibbsFactor]

In my opinion, the Wins record should be re-awarded to Bowden. This is an outrage!

[Spartacus87]

Techincally' date=' he did what the law required him to do.

Suddenly, Joe Paterno is just a cog in the chain of command and he has "supreriors."

Granted, Paterno really hasn't had to answer to anyone since 1982 but ignore that.[/quote']

I would say that the wagons have been effectively circled to protect Paterno as much as possible with this.

I know this isn't even close to important, but on another note, I wonder how this affects the current team. Penn State is a shocking 8-1 right now, two games up in their division with three to play, arguably the three most difficult teams on their schedule. They had a bye last week and now that this broke, they have to try and concentrate in practice with all this swirling around. None of them played for Sandusky, but Paterno of course is there, as well as McQueary. And it occurs to me, these kids are all in their late teens, early 20's, so they could have been involved in youth camps around the time of these allegations.

I do wonder how the team will respond with all this going on...insulate themselves and pull this out or fold under all the outside pressure/distractions and stumble the rest of the way.

It is strange to discuss the football team itself, since something like this reaches way beyond something like "improper benefits for players," but the team, both this season and especially going forward, will be affected by this, and it's a topic that fans have to consider, at least somewhat.

This is a pretty serious dark cloud hanging over the program, its own facilities, and its current famous head coach. And if Penn State manages to make the first Big 10 CG this season, the media scrutiny will be even more heightened.

As LKB already explained, this severely damages the "Penn State" program brand. It'll be hard from now on to mention Penn State as "Linebacker U" without this story coming up in connection. Joe Paterno is almost certainly out after this season, and I don't know how you bring someone in to replace him from within his coaching tree. There was some talk of Al Golden taking over, but the mess Miami is looking at seems like paradise compared to what Penn State now faces. Especially with how deep this scandal runs within the athletic department and school leadership - Penn State likely won't even be able to run a completely thorough coaching search once everyone gets cleaned out.

Who really knows at this point. Penn State fans and alumni have my complete sympathy though (the ones not staunchly defending Sandusky that is). Forehead, I feel for you man. This is about as severe of a black eye as an athletics program and university can take.

If there is ever a situation for the death penalty, this is it. Worse than what was going on at SMU.

If it's not used here, I'm not sure when it ever would be used again.

Is it really though?

I'm not sure what grounds the NCAA has to do anything here. And especially in a legal case this deep, I really doubt that the enforcement staff of the NCAA, with how undermanned they are, would be able to effectively oversee a proper punishment for this.

The NCAA's sanctions aren't written for something like this.

Is the NCAA's system imperfect? Yeah, absolutely. I'm still salty over the way they handled FSU in 2007, and I'm always one of the first to criticize them when they're too slow to respond to something or don't come down consistently enough, but I think calling for the NCAA to just come in and hammer Penn State in this case is a little extreme.

I think the NCAA is both too incompetent (by leadership, and by their own current design) and too understaffed to trust that they could come in and handle Penn State's situation appropriately. Then you'd have to trust that the NCAA would respond appropriately in any future situations where college programs were caught in legal issues as deep as this.

Penn State will get hammered enough by their own doing. And I'd bet that the school will face its own punishments in court over time as well. Bringing a bowl ban and TV ban on to current players at Penn State doesn't do anything.

[Larry]

I just want to why is others getting charged and not Paterno? He knew but didn't go to the police either.

Possible response to this poster and the numerous others asking this question.

I don't know about Penn State, but years ago, when I was a student at the University of Oklahoma, I was told that there, the Campus Cops, legally, were State Police. The reasoning was that legally, nobody else has the authority to arrest people on state property.

Now, if a similar statement is true at Penn State, then I could see an argument that legally, everybody involved can't be prosecuted, because they told the Campus Cops.

That's why I've been saying that, IMO, morally they're guilty as sin, but maybe they're covered, legally.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

To be honest, I'm not sure what the NCAA can do to Penn State that the Pennsylvania's attorney general office is not already doing.

If I had to guess, by January, PSU will be without a president, an athletic director, a head coach, several Vice Presidents, several athletic department officials, pretty much the entire football coaching staff, and its reputation. And it won't be for anything that a player or coach did in relation to football or NCAA rules.

[Larry]

I'm surprised the NCAA hasn't even uttered a word yet.

Frankly, I don't see this as an NCAA matter. Nor do I see this as a "punish the football team" matter.

I think that some individuals need to go to jail. (But I can understand if maybe some of them might get off on technicalities.)

To me, all of this talk about whether JoPa should be fired, or the effects on the BCS, or NCAA punishment, is just plain irrelevant.

[TimmySmith]

That's why I've been saying that, IMO, morally they're guilty as sin, but maybe they're covered, legally.

From a civil perspective, they could be in big trouble. The University is sure as heck in huge trouble from a civil suit.

[Btubes18]

From a civil perspective, they could be in big trouble. The University is sure as heck in huge trouble from a civil suit.

Very big trouble, more than likely the University will try to settle all of these cases. This will be a HUGE settlement.

[The Tris]

This falls outside their purview' date=' I think. The NCAA regulates athletes, not coaches.[/quote']

Certainly regulated the coaches, administrators and non-athletes of SMU.

[Spartacus87]

To be honest' date=' I'm not sure what the NCAA can do to Penn State that the Pennsylvania's attorney general office is not already doing.

If I had to guess, by January, PSU will be without a president, an athletic director, a head coach, several Vice Presidents, several athletic department officials, pretty much the entire football coaching staff, and its reputation. And it won't be for anything that a player or coach did in relation to football or NCAA rules.[/quote']

As usual, LKB sums it up pretty well.

And people want the NCAA to come in and take away scholarships and practice time? For what? Who does that punish? And for what reason?

---------- Post added November-7th-2011 at 03:36 PM ----------

Certainly regulated the coaches, administrators and non-athletes of SMU.

Very different issues for what happened at SMU and what happened at Penn State.

[The Tris]

Very different issues for what happened at SMU and what happened at Penn State.

A culture of irresponsibility, arrogance, and ignorance of the rules.

PSU will do a better job falling on the sword, but if you believe the NCAA has no place to act here, then you are in essence saying that the NCAA has no regulatory power over non-athletes within an athletic department.

Coaches, ADs, have at it, the NCAA cares not what you do, just what the players do.

If this was not JoePa, you can bet your ass the NCAA would have slapped a show-cause on the coach, as well as the AD.

[Larry]

As usual, LKB sums it up pretty well.

And people want the NCAA to come in and take away scholarships and practice time? For what? Who does that punish? And for what reason?

Yeah, my thought when people started talking about the NCAA is along the lines of "Yeah, the NCAA should spend 3-4 years voluntarily talking to people, off the record and not under oath, and will then decide to retroactively alter some of Penn State's football records."

---------- Post added November-7th-2011 at 03:44 PM ----------

PSU will do a better job falling on the sword, but if you believe the NCAA has no place to act here, then you are in essence saying that the NCAA has no regulatory power over non-athletes within an athletic department.

Actually, what I'm saying is that the NCAA is in charge of enforcing NCAA rules.

And I don't think that a person who used to be part of the team, years ago, committing a felony rape in the showers, is against the NCAA rules.

This isn't a football matter. This is a multiple felony criminal investigation matter.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Certainly regulated the coaches, administrators and non-athletes of SMU.

It was all in relation to their dealings with athletes. The NCAA really only deals with one issue - protecting the concept of amateurism. This, alas, has nothing to do with that.

The group that should investigate is whoever regulates HIGH SCHOOL football in PA.

---------- Post added November-7th-2011 at 04:46 PM ----------

PSU will do a better job falling on the sword, but if you believe the NCAA has no place to act here, then you are in essence saying that the NCAA has no regulatory power over non-athletes within an athletic department.

Yes, the NCAA has no regulatory power over non-athletes within the athletic department. The NCAA does not regulate salaries. It cares not if FSU is paying millions to various sons of Bobby Bowden. It cares not if your coach is on cocaine - unless he gives it to its players. And it cares not if your coach is a rapist.

This is like arguing that if a 70-year-old is accused of murder, the Social Security Administration needs to investigate.

[The Tris]

And I don't think that a person who used to be part of the team, years ago, committing a felony rape in the showers, is against the NCAA rules.

I need to look into it, but I would be surprised if the NCAA does not have rules against coaches and administrators committing felonies.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Possible response to this poster and the numerous others asking this question.

I don't know about Penn State, but years ago, when I was a student at the University of Oklahoma, I was told that there, the Campus Cops, legally, were State Police. The reasoning was that legally, nobody else has the authority to arrest people on state property.

Now, if a similar statement is true at Penn State, then I could see an argument that legally, everybody involved can't be prosecuted, because they told the Campus Cops.

That's why I've been saying that, IMO, morally they're guilty as sin, but maybe they're covered, legally.

Legally, campus police are "real" police. They are not a private security force. From what I can tell, the PSU police investigate crimes and hand the investigation to the DA of Centre County. So, yes, if the police received information in 2002, PSU probably techincally followed the law.

I've yet to see any evidence that this happened though. Paterno told the AD who told Schultz who was techincally over the Campus Police Department but was not a police official.

I can't believe that there was a police investigation because McQueary testified that he was never contacted by police for a statement.

---------- Post added November-7th-2011 at 04:53 PM ----------

I need to look into it, but I would be surprised if the NCAA does not have rules against coaches and administrators committing felonies.

It does not, because it does not regulate coaches.

Techincally, the NCAA has no rules about athletes committing felonies.

You, frankly, have no idea what the NCAA actually does so you should probably stop talking about it.

[TimmySmith]

And people want the NCAA to come in and take away scholarships and practice time? For what? Who does that punish? And for what reason?

The NCAA will investigate and if there was wrongdoing, they will put sanctions in the team. Not a hard concept to understand.

---------- Post added November-7th-2011 at 08:56 PM ----------

It does not' date=' because it does not regulate coaches.[/quote']Sure it does. Ask Dave Bliss.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

The NCAA will investigate and if there was wrongdoing, they will put sanctions in the team. Not a hard concept to understand.

Since when does the NCAA have the authority to investigate criminal wrongdoing?

Do any of you know what the NCAA actually does?

[Spartacus87]

A culture of irresponsibility, arrogance, and ignorance of the rules.

PSU will do a better job falling on the sword, but if you believe the NCAA has no place to act here, then you are in essence saying that the NCAA has no regulatory power over non-athletes within an athletic department.

Coaches, ADs, have at it, the NCAA cares not what you do, just what the players do.

If this was not JoePa, you can bet your ass the NCAA would have slapped a show-cause on the coach, as well as the AD.

The NCAA cares about what coaches, ADs, boosters, etc. do. They care very deeply. As long as those people are also involved with players.

Maybe this is something the NCAA should consider some reform on. Maybe the NCAA should figure out a way to police situations like this.

But right now, with the way the NCAA is structured, this isn't really an issue they can come in and do anything about. Unless, like I mentioned before, you want them to overstep their usual boundaries and start wielding power in a way that the NCAA is probably not responsible enough, or well equipped enough, to wield.

I really don't understand why people feel that the NCAA needs to be involved in this anyway. Penn State's key decision makers, at just about every level, are going to be cleaned out over this. Paterno's legacy is probably going to end up pretty well tarnished over this. Penn State will likely end up paying sizable sums of money in civil courts over this. And this is something that will hang over the Penn State program for a very long time to come.

Penn State is going to get punished, without the NCAA needing to do anything.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Sure it does. Ask Dave Bliss.

Bliss did not get in trouble with the NCAA for covering up a murder.

He got in trouble for illegally paying for a player's tuition.

Coaches and schools are only regulated to the point that an athlete's amateur status is impacted.

Joe Paterno could rape a cheerleader on the 50-yard-line and he would only be in trouble with the NCAA if he paid her hush money while she was on scholarhsip.

(Crude example, but I'm annoyed).