Where does the silly notion that teachers are overpaid come from?

[Obibyn23]

OMG! The scawy wepubwicans ruin evwything!!! YIKES!!!!

Teachers work hard, I fully grant that. I was married to one, and I saw the work she did. But there is NO argument against the fact that they have THE cushiest schedule there is. It's not even close.

Funny...because I am married to one as well...and her staying up until 10:00-11:00 pm five days a week planing, sub planning, grading...with only a one to two hour breaks a day from an already full days worth of work with over twenty kids...while most people get off of work and their work is done and are able to enjoy their evenings...is HARDLY "cushiest". I think it's safe to say there is NO argument against THAT.

Teachers get all those evening hours the average American gets for family and themselves in a three month stretch during the summer...and they deserve that AND more money.

I'd like to see those arguing against this deal with twenty kids five days a week all day...

But continue being the *voice of reason* ...thinking you got it all figured out...have fun with that.

[Veretax]

Comes from the Republicans who ultimately want to destroy public education so their private charter schools will take off. You know, free market and all that jazz. Oh and they want to destroy America.

---------- Post added March-16th-2011 at 03:08 PM ----------

By the way, it really is a silly notion. I'm graduating in May and will have approx the same salary as my mom, a 5th grade teacher with 13 years of experience and a Masters Degree.

I'm a republican, with a BS Degree working as a Software Developer, and I don't make anywhere near 50K presently. The issue is being spun. It's not that teachers are not being paid enough. The issue is the teachers are not getting the increases when we throw money at the problem. It goes to administrative costs. Its the administrators who have the exorbitant salaries typically. I can't imagine anyone who would WANT to be a teacher given what they go through politically, for such low pay.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Funny...because I am married to one as well...and her staying up until 10:00-11:00 pm five days a week planing, sub planning, grading...with only a one to two hour breaks a day from an already full days worth of work with over twenty kids...while most people get off of work and their work is done and are able to enjoy their evenings...is HARDLY "cushiest". I think it's safe to say there is NO argument against THAT.

Teachers get all those evening hours the average American gets for family and themselves in a three month stretch during the summer...and they deserve that AND more money.

I'd like to see those arguing against this deal with twenty kids five days a week all day...

But continue being the *voice of reason* ...thinking you got it all figured out...have fun with that.

There was honestly not an evening of my childhood where my mother was not sitting in our kitchen after dinner with a stack of papers and a red pen. I made more than her at age 27 and I spent my evenings watching Pop Up Video on VH1.

---------- Post added March-16th-2011 at 03:26 PM ----------

I'm a republican, with a BS Degree working as a Software Developer, and I don't make anywhere near 50K presently. The issue is being spun. It's not that teachers are not being paid enough. The issue is the teachers are not getting the increases when we throw money at the problem. It goes to administrative costs. Its the administrators who have the exorbitant salaries typically. I can't imagine anyone who would WANT to be a teacher given what they go through politically, for such low pay.

Just to continue the "Private/Public" Debate, how much more does the typical - say - CFO make over the average entry-level accountant.

Why shouldn't a superintendent make an order of magnitude more than a first year kindergarten teacher?

[Predicto]

See' date=' this is horse****. This is "Keep Your Government Hands Off My Medicare" Tea Party horse****.

This is not a private sector versus public sector argument. Those kids are not paying to attend that private school. The school district - IE, the local taxpayer - is paying to put those kids in that private school. Of course, the parents want the kids to stay. If your kid was attending a private school for ****ing free, you would want them to stay as well. Send my kid to Sidwell Friends and make the District pay for it. That sounds like a great deal.

Re-read what you just read. The parents are going to opt out of government aid in order to keep the kids in the school they are. The private sector is superior argument would state that they should have done that all along. You can't tout the superiority of private schools and then demand a government subsidy to go there.

(This is the fatal flaw in the voucher argument too, by the way. All vouchers end up being is a scholarship program for Catholic Schools).

The issue is, can that child's needs be met in the public school system? If so, financially, it makes a lot more sense to put the three children in that district in a class with a $50K teacher and $25K aid then spend the $150K it takes to transport and educate the child in a private school. Yes, I said transport. You have to pay for the child to get to that school regardless of the district.

The district is required by law to educate those children same as every other child in the district. How they do so is the trick.[/quote']

Nailed it. Totally nailed it. I have a friend who has one of those deals, and it is a sweet, sweet deal for her and her kid. I understand why she likes it, but it is an extraordinarily expensive way to use our taxdollars.

[Veretax]

20 years ago' date=' that would have not been necessary.

But elementary schools are the no longer the same place you attended.

44 percent of American elementary students are now considered special education students. Each one of them requires their own IEP. Handling these students alone would be require 8 hour days for the average principal meeting forms, meeting with counselors, meeting with psychologists, etc.

....

9 percent of students are now ADHD. They fall under IDEA and require an IEP and also require medication.

Principals are also responsible for school safety in the age of Columbine. It's amazing how many meetings and trainings are required for this.

I haven't even gotten to discipline yet.[/quote']

I'm going to add something to the picture. How many of these kids get mislabeled. Your son can't sit still, he's ADHD, and if you don't go and get him drugged up the your child gets the raw end of the stick. I know, I was supposedly ADHD, and frankly I find it sickening the way we treat some of our youngest kids. We expect kids to sit still in school like they are in the military for how long in the day? Granted that's elementary education I'm mostly upset at.

This is a great example though of how more government doesn't necessarily lead to better out comes. We may have lifted the bottom up, but to do it we've shaved the top, and hurt those who really could have been the cream of the crop in our schools of late. It is really sad.

As for my kids, we home school, and its amazing how much a kid can learn in a VERY read shorter time than they sit in school, and still have time for all the fun things a kid should be doing.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Nailed it. Totally nailed it. I have a friend who has one of those deals, and it is a sweet, sweet deal for her and her kid. I understand why she likes it, but it is an extraordinarily expensive way to use our taxdollars.

It's a law that I support even though it puts unbelievable pressure on school district resources.

School debates ultimately become personal. One bad teacher colors your experience for the entire system, which they probably should since that is your world. Your child's needs outweigh everyone elses, which they do as that is YOUR child.

Parents don't like hearing that schools can't do something. And politicians don't like getting letters from those parents so they pass laws making the district do that thing the parents want.

---------- Post added March-16th-2011 at 03:42 PM ----------

I'm going to add something to the picture. How many of these kids get mislabeled. Your son can't sit still, he's ADHD, and if you don't go and get him drugged up the your child gets the raw end of the stick. I know, I was supposedly ADHD, and frankly I find it sickening the way we treat some of our youngest kids. We expect kids to sit still in school like they are in the military for how long in the day? Granted that's elementary education I'm mostly upset at.

I mostly agree with you. I think ADHD is probably over diagnosed. But, again, there is a reason. Parents want their kids to have the label. Why? Because it means the school has set that child aside as a priority under federal law.

Most of these laws are not the creation of educators. School administrators would have much much easier lives without them.

[Veretax]

---------- Post added March-16th-2011 at 03:26 PM ----------

Just to continue the "Private/Public" Debate' date=' how much more does the typical - say - CFO make over the average entry-level accountant.

Why shouldn't a superintendent make an order of magnitude more than a first year kindergarten teacher?[/quote']

Before I can answer that I have to ask, are you picturing each individual School as a separate entity here where principle is CEO? Or is it further up the chain to the county or state level. (Which btw the bureaucracy is part of what I really hate about the school system. If ever there was a place for a closer to the people point of view it would be to have more control locally at the school or district level, not at the state or region/county level.)

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Before I can answer that I have to ask, are you picturing each individual School as a separate entity here where principle is CEO? Or is it further up the chain to the county or state level. (Which btw the bureaucracy is part of what I really hate about the school system. If ever there was a place for a closer to the people point of view it would be to have more control locally at the school or district level, not at the state or region/county level.)

It's typically central office employees who make the most inflated salaries. I think the best job in America might be Special Ed Director of a medium size school district.

But I subscribe to the notion that all executives are typically vastly overpaid. I've worked in several companies and the only C-level exec who ever seems to work for a living is a COO. I think that you could eliminate 75 percent of CEOs and 95 percent of CFOs and most companies would seen an increase in profits.

I think the most important employees in school districts are the principals. If you have strong principals (especially at the high school level), you have a strong district. If you do not, you are in trouble.

I think the least important employees in school districts are assistant superintendents.

[Henry]

I'm going to add something to the picture. How many of these kids get mislabeled. Your son can't sit still, he's ADHD, and if you don't go and get him drugged up the your child gets the raw end of the stick. I know, I was supposedly ADHD, and frankly I find it sickening the way we treat some of our youngest kids. We expect kids to sit still in school like they are in the military for how long in the day? Granted that's elementary education I'm mostly upset at.

This is a great example though of how more government doesn't necessarily lead to better out comes. We may have lifted the bottom up, but to do it we've shaved the top, and hurt those who really could have been the cream of the crop in our schools of late. It is really sad.

As for my kids, we home school, and its amazing how much a kid can learn in a VERY read shorter time than they sit in school, and still have time for all the fun things a kid should be doing.

I have a kid with autism in public school right now and I know pretty much all his fellow students and their parents, because we've had to fight tooth and nail for every program and every extra pencil our kids need. I don't think you are familiar with the current situation regarding special needs kids in this country. LKB is absolutely right. Things are different now, and it's not because schools are populated with a bunch of pampered fakers with lazy parents.

Now if you'll all excuse me I've got to take my son to speech therapy right now.

[AsburySkinsFan]

the same imaginary fantasy land where most right-wing talking points come from, i'd imagine.

That's what I was going to write.

[Veretax]

I have a kid with autism in public school right now and I know pretty much all his fellow students and their parents, because we've had to fight tooth and nail for every program and every extra pencil our kids need. I don't think you are familiar with the current situation regarding special needs kids in this country. LKB is absolutely right. Things are different now, and it's not because schools are populated with a bunch of pampered fakers with lazy parents.

I'm not targeting all special needs kids. I happen to feel particularly upset about how ADD and ADHD kids are handled. Not all special needs kids need the same thing, and I know there certainly are a lot of them. My point here is that sometimes the best way to reach these kids is by changing tactics in how you teach, not trying to fit them into one box. Today a lot of these LD kids are all in the same classes because of NCLB. My wife is a teacher, and I have relatives who are as well so I hear these things and think about it a bit.

It's typically central office employees who make the most inflated salaries. I think the best job in America might be Special Ed Director of a medium size school district.

I think the most important employees in school districts are the principals. If you have strong principals (especially at the high school level)' date=' you have a strong district. If you do not, you are in trouble.

I think the least important employees in school districts are assistant superintendents.[/quote']

I ascribe to the idea of breaking the public monopoly on education at the bureaucracy level. Reform in a manner where each kid is given certain $$$ for education, maybe based on level, or special needs, but that's what the state provides. They can then take that $$$ (this would be in the form of a waiver/voucher type system not actual cash in hand btw), to any school they wish their kids to go to. Then you make the Principal essentially the head of the school, and the parents become like Stock Holders in the school. They vote in favor or against based on keeping their kids there. Who knows better what their kids need than their own parents, if you catch my drift? By doing this you could in theory free a ton of money from those bureaucrats, to put in the hands of Principals, and local school administrators to help keep programs that actually work!

(Admittedly This may not necessarily help some isolated areas unfortunately.)

This is how I think things need to go to truly fix the system though.

[Southtown]

(briefly scanned through thread)

My girlfriend has been an elementary school teacher for Broward County public schools for 7 years. In 2010 she earned $42K. Not sure if that helps or hurts the argument...just throwing it out there for some context.

[Teller]

That's what I was going to write.

Say nothing of the fact, though, that NO right-wingers have come forward as of yet to say they think teachers ARE overpaid. Keep accusing us of making crap up while y'all swing at the non-existent boogeyman.

[Burgold]

OMG! The scawy wepubwicans ruin evwything!!! YIKES!!!!

Teachers work hard, I fully grant that. I was married to one, and I saw the work she did. But there is NO argument against the fact that they have THE cushiest schedule there is. It's not even close.

Game show host. Pat Sajack has the cushiest work schedule ever. They film a week's worth of Wheel of Fortune's in one day and then BOOM! He's off to play golf.

[pjfootballer]

40-50 thousand a year is nothing to sneeze at when alot of people are making $10 an hour or less. And it all depends on where you live. If you live in New York and made that, you'd be dirt poor. Here in South Carolina, you are upper middle class. I don't know why everyone in this country thinks every profession should make 6 figures.

---------- Post added March-17th-2011 at 10:44 AM ----------

I'm going to add something to the picture. How many of these kids get mislabeled. Your son can't sit still, he's ADHD, and if you don't go and get him drugged up the your child gets the raw end of the stick. I know, I was supposedly ADHD, and frankly I find it sickening the way we treat some of our youngest kids. We expect kids to sit still in school like they are in the military for how long in the day? Granted that's elementary education I'm mostly upset at.

I mostly agree with you. I think ADHD is probably over diagnosed. But' date=' again, there is a reason. Parents want their kids to have the label. Why? Because it means the school has set that child aside as a priority under federal law.

Most of these laws are not the creation of educators. School administrators would have much much easier lives without them.[/quote']

I was thinking the same thing. Why do so many kids have so many problems nowadays? We had a small (talking less than 10) kids in the entire grade that were deemed "special ed" only because of their attitudes, not because they were slow or stupid. They didn't want to put in the effort. It's hard for me to beleive we have so many special needs children, or is it the parents want their child to "be special" or they don't want to take the time to help with their education.

[Dan T.]

Say nothing of the fact, though, that NO right-wingers have come forward as of yet to say they think teachers ARE overpaid. Keep accusing us of making crap up while y'all swing at the non-existent boogeyman.

Look at Jon Stewart's Daily Show clip. It shows a whole parade of right wing pundits decrying how overpaid teachers are.

[Pick6]

I don't think teachers are overpaid in the least and it is very honorable job. I have always said I only want to marry a teacher or a nurse, because women in those jobs always seem to be a little more geniune than other professions. I will say however that people go into teacher of their own free will and know the pay.

[Burgold]

I thought we should do an apples to apples comparison. In Montgomery Country every teacher must have a Master's Degree or be working towards one and hold one within three years of accepting a teaching position. The average income for an individual with a Master's Degree was 53,000 in 2003 http://www.salary.com/learning/layouthtmls/leal_display_nocat_Ser285_Par409.html (it's probably slightly higher today). Given that everyone was saying that the average teacher's salary was in the low 40's... that means that based on education the average teacher is making 10K less then their peers at least that's true in most counties in MD.

[TheLongshot]

There was a nice OpEd in the Times about the fact that we might be underpaying teachers and not attracting the best talent of our country to teach the next generation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/13/opinion/13kristof.html?_r=3&nl=todaysheadlines&adxnnl=1&emc=tha212&adxnnlx=1300093203-fESjOei5AhjYtco/uXq3og

The guy is also not a fan of teachers unions.

[btfoom]

I gotta jump in on this one.

I am tired of seeing these type of strawman posts here in the tailgate. If you have a legitimate source to back up your assertion, please do so. But to just post an idea that is floating around in your head without any type of backing is bordering on trolling.

I don't see a large groundswell of people demanding teachers take pay-cuts or mobs taking to the streets protesting teacher's salaries.

---------- Post added March-17th-2011 at 11:19 AM ----------

Look at Jon Stewart's Daily Show clip. It shows a whole parade of right wing pundits decrying how overpaid teachers are.

But, but, but, Jon Stewart is just a comedian, not a real news guy (at least that's what he says when challenged), so anything on his show is just for a laugh, right????

[techboy]

I find the whole discussion kind of puzzling, because if we look at this from a strictly economics viewpoint (maybe that's the problem... most people don't think like economists...), the answer to whether or not teachers are overpaid is obvious.

If teachers are overpaid, we should see a glut of applicants, and it should be very difficult to get a job as a teacher, because everybody would want to be one.

Is that happening?

One might argue that the government distorts the free market by fixing the salaries, but that only changes what we might call the "supply" side. The "demand" side of people seeking positions is still totally free.

[Tweedr01]

It's modern day slavery...

[KDawg]

If teachers are overpaid, we should see a glut of applicants, and it should be very difficult to get a job as a teacher, because everybody would want to be one.

Is that happening?

To a point, it is... The point being there are no jobs... The reason being, though, is layoffs due to educational cuts. I'm a certified physical education teacher with no place to work as a teacher due to cuts... And if I get a job its pretty much a foregone conclusion that I'll lose it in a year due to seniority style layoffs.

Earlier in this thread I saw someone say that Teaching Assistants (they said aides) are making $25k a year. Where?! Right now, I'm working at a TA (even with my teaching certification due to a lack of jobs due to the economy) and I make $14,000 a year. I have to work three jobs to make ends meet... Did I mention this is with a college degree?

I run the In School Suspension Room and our credit recovery program. I have to get every kid work and I need to be able to help each kid do work. I have to go through and learn ridiculous amounts of stuff... And I'm being paid $14k. If someone knows a TA position that pays $25k, let me know. I'm in (unless I find a teaching job first )

[Blackest Eyes]

I dont know if teachers would have such a big problem with their pay if they got more respect from people. When my fiance tells people she is a general elementary music teacher in fairfax county, sometimes she gets a look of disgust. I guess people think either teaching music is pointless, she has a cushy job with summers, holidays and weekends off or both of those options combined. The amount of extra work she does is ridiculous. She gets to work at 7 every morning and leaves at about 5. Her contract is something like 8:00-3:30. Sure she doesn't have to be there for longer amounts of time but in order to get her job done, she pretty much has to put extra time in. She has virtually zero planning time at school so the before & after school time is really important.

While teachers do get summer, holidays, weekends and snow days off, they put in a ton of extra work that goes unpaid and unrecognized. It doesn't help that they do not get a lot of respect. Being a teacher should be one of the most revered positions one can have.

[Burgold]

This is very true. When I was a special education teacher my pricipal mandated that each teacher take on two extra-curriculars. For me, that was on top of teaching, lesson planning, adapting general educators lesson plans, conducting psychometric tests, analyzing said tests and combining the results with the 10 or twenty forms of qualitative and quantative analysis for each child, writing IEPs, chairing meeting, paying home visits, monitoring and adjusting the annual plan for 40 individuals, paperwork, standing as an expert for the school in arbitration and court cases, etc.

And we haven't even got to the numerous roles a teacher has to take on when they are simply teaching.