techboy Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 One more quick observation I have shared before, but might be salient here (and it ties in with my previous comment, in a way). I have been working in the public school system for 12 years now, roughly (2 as a sub in various schools, 10 as a teacher in a middle school and a high school). In that time, I have seen many people leave the "real world" and come in as a teacher through special programs offered to fast track field experts as educators (here's the tie in... why would they have to offer these special programs if enough people wanted to do the job? See also special educators working on provisional licenses). I have also seen many people leave teaching to go back to the "real world". I have seen many of those fast track hires turn right around and go back to the "real world" after a year or two. I have never seen anybody return to teaching after leaving the profession. That's anecdotal, so take it for whatever you think that's worth. To a point, it is... The point being there are no jobs... The reason being, though, is layoffs due to educational cuts. I'm a certified physical education teacher with no place to work as a teacher due to cuts... And if I get a job its pretty much a foregone conclusion that I'll lose it in a year due to seniority style layoffs. Well, one side effect of my approach of course, is that if you broke it down finely enough, certain kinds of teachers would be worth more than others. No offense meant, but P.E. and Social Studies teachers are a dime a dozen (relatively speaking, anyway). If you were certified in math, science, or special education, you'd likely have a job already. And, taken as a whole, it's pretty clear that we don't have a glut of teachers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 One other thought, isn't it strange to have a thread about teacher's being overpaid next to a thread about how having 7 million dollars doesn't make one rich? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Considering all of the people out of work: We are all taking on 60% more. Technology smology. Regular teachers are not that fond of Vocational teachers that get paid 70k either. My neighbor said he fixes their cars for free, fixes up donated cars and makes 20k a year for the school and is barely seen as a 'real' teacher by "real" teachers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deejaydana Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I don't think anyone doubts that teachers work for their money but at the same time I don't recall anyone in Tailgate railing that teachers are overpaid, as suggested by the OP. I think the Unions have really screwed the pooch in K-12 education because we still spend an outrageous amount of money, and continue to devote ever more, and the results continue to decline (relative to other countries). The answer at this point is clearly not more money going to schools, they can't effectively use what they're already receiving. If there is one thing that Unions have succeeded in doing in recent decades, it's deceiving the voting public that public education is starved for cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I always laugh at the comparisons made to other countries when it comes to our education system. Especially when our system is compared to countries who screen out the, for lack of a better term, lowest common denominator and pawn them off on trade schools and such. We don't do that here - thus collectively our averages tend to be lower in comparison. I cannot imagine how bad the scores would be if we spent less - but I guess we will find out soon since schools are one of the next targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 To a point, it is... The point being there are no jobs... The reason being, though, is layoffs due to educational cuts. I'm a certified physical education teacher with no place to work as a teacher due to cuts... And if I get a job its pretty much a foregone conclusion that I'll lose it in a year due to seniority style layoffs.Earlier in this thread I saw someone say that Teaching Assistants (they said aides) are making $25k a year. Where?! Right now, I'm working at a TA (even with my teaching certification due to a lack of jobs due to the economy) and I make $14,000 a year. I have to work three jobs to make ends meet... Did I mention this is with a college degree? I run the In School Suspension Room and our credit recovery program. I have to get every kid work and I need to be able to help each kid do work. I have to go through and learn ridiculous amounts of stuff... And I'm being paid $14k. If someone knows a TA position that pays $25k, let me know. I'm in (unless I find a teaching job first ) There are two factors at play here: 1. If you were a speech teacher or a special ed teacher or a science teacher, you could pretty much have your choice of jobs. 2. You are in Rochester and upstate NY is losing population at an incredible rate. No population means declining school enrollments. I don't know what the situation is now, but six years ago, Faquier County in Virginia would have a police escort take you to a classroom the second you entered the county. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 And I'm being paid $14k. If someone knows a TA position that pays $25k, let me know. I'm in (unless I find a teaching job first ) No, if you really want to talk underpaid, it's instructional assistants. Their salaries are criminally low, even if they do actually get to leave at 2:30 each day (in our school system, they have to, because the county doesn't want to pay the overtime, or get sued, even if the IA volunteers to stay). If you're willing to teach special education, though, you can probably get a job doing that under a provisional license (in Fairfax you just have to take the 500 level characteristics class first. then finish the rest of the certification in 3 years). Some of the classes you already have as a certified PE teacher probably overlap, so it wouldn't even be as bad. And we haven't even got to the numerous roles a teacher has to take on when they are simply teaching. I think what burns a lot of people out are the things that seem little until one actually experiences it, such as... - disrespect from the students (this alone probably accounts for the public/private salary difference... private schools don't have to teach everyone) - not being able to go to the bathroom when one wants - Having 30 minutes or less to eat lunch, and never going out - Just the lack of adult interaction. Try spending all day with a bunch of kids, even fun ones (personally, I don't mind, but I work with the older kids, and I'm mentally about 12 anyway ) There are a lot of elements that most people take for granted in "real world jobs", to the point where I've seen people here actually write that they look forward to their work as a way to get out of the house and socialize, that just isn't present for teachers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 The answer at this point is clearly not more money going to schools, they can't effectively use what they're already receiving. If there is one thing that Unions have succeeded in doing in recent decades, it's deceiving the voting public that public education is starved for cash. Funding has gotten better in some areas, but the responsibilities of the school district have grown exponentially. Do you have any idea the cost of educating an autisitc or TMI student? The transportation costs alone are staggering. 35 years ago, if those students attended school at all, they were essentially "stored" there. Now, we actually make an effort to educate these students. I don't know if the diagnoses are exploding so much as we no longer have a hidden popupation. I suspect it's a combination of both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deejaydana Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ when California devotes 70% (or close to it, it's somewhere near there) of its state budget to education, and gets the results it does, something is not working. I wasn't singling out Spec Ed in my earlier post however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ when California devotes 70% of its state budget to education, and gets the results it does, something is not working. I wasn't singling out Spec Ed in my earlier post however. Where the hell are you getting that number? It's 24 to 30 percent based on all the information I've seen. Under the state proposition system, 40 percent of the budget is supposed to go to K-12 education. (Seriously, is there a worse idea in history than the proposition system?) But the state has not met the goal in years due to budgetary pressures. http://www.latimes.com/news/local/budget/ If you include higher education, it's 40 percent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 VA: The worst part for teachers is the Gov't tied property taxes to the schools and then everything plumetted for 3 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Want to know something else that takes an insane portion of a school district's day? Breakfast and lunch. http://www.ed-data.k12.ca.us/articles/article.asp?title=california%20comparison 40 percent of students nationally are on free and reduced lunch. (In California, that number approaches 49 percent. In Texas, it is 47 percent). Keeping track of that alone is practically a full time job for a teacher or administrator. Add in the amount of drugs that a school distributes during the day, and you are essentially running a cafeteria/long-term care facility for 8 year olds. (About 6 percent of students receive drugs daily from school officials - even though something like 45 percent of schools no longer have school nurses). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 http://www.latimes.com/news/local/budget/ (this thing is crazy, you have to cut to the bone!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 http://www.latimes.com/news/local/budget/ (this thing is crazy, you have to cut to the bone!) Yea. California really cannot be fixed. It's unbelievable. From a demographics to property taxes to the requirements set forth in the proposition system, nothing adds up. For the record, I cut school budgets by 30 percent, higher education by 50 percent, pretty much eliminated all welfare payments, eliminated the entire prison system, and STILL had to raise taxes to balance the budget. ---------- Post added March-17th-2011 at 11:18 AM ---------- My fiance is in this situation.She took a private sector job b/c a hiring freeze went into place the EXACT DAY she was offered a job in the public sector. They couldn't hire her b/c of that freeze. About a week later, she took a job making about 2/3 of what the public sector had offered. Retirement benefits and health insurance don't kick in for a few months. In the public sector, it was immediate benefits. I still want to know why you think taxpayers should heavily subsidize private schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Harris Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Hell, I'll do a couple hours of work every night when I get home if my boss will give me 3 months off every year, paid. NO problem. i'd love my job even more if i got paid for the summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 i'd love my job even more if i got paid for the summer. My ex had the option of getting paid for nine months, or stretching it over the course of the entire year (which is what she chose.) Still, 10-11 days off for Christmas (errr...the PC "Winter Break"), couple days for Easter (errr...PC "Spring Break")....and hell, in WV, you get time off for the start of hunting season. Even if you just count the during-the-school year time off, the schedule ain't bad at all. And again, don't get me wrong. Teachers work harder than anyone else I know when you factor in the work done at home. All I'm saying is that the schedule is sweet. And it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 i'd love my job even more if i got paid for the summer. That's a great point. Teachers (at least in WV) are on 10-month contracts. Administrators are on 12-month contracts, but they actually work in the summer. Again, no one knows this. ---------- Post added March-17th-2011 at 11:31 AM ---------- And again, don't get me wrong. Teachers work harder than anyone else I know when you factor in the work done at home. All I'm saying is that the schedule is sweet. And it is. The schedule is predictable. You know what I thought the most accurate depiction of a teacher ever was in a film? Tiny Fey in Mean Girls, because they showed her bartending on the weekends. I actually know very few teachers who take a summer break. They either work, coach, or attend school. And I'm sure Major (My boy!) can attest to the fact that the worst hourly salary in America is a high school coach in WV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Harris Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 My ex had the option of getting paid for nine months, or stretching it over the course of the entire year (which is what she chose.).. we all have that option. a lot of us take it (including me) but that doesn't mean we're getting paid for the summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 The schedule is predictable. OK. If I'm wrong, who has a better schedule than a teacher? I don't even say "bankers hours" because I don't know any bankers who have it nearly that good schedule-wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 OK. If I'm wrong, who has a better schedule than a teacher? I don't even say "bankers hours" because I don't know any bankers who have it nearly that good schedule-wise. It depends on the teacher. It's a good schedule if you don't mind being paid 10 months out of the year or starting your day at 7 AM. If you are a coach or band director or choir instructor or theater person or yearbook director or anything like that, it's a brutal ****ing schedule as you are probably working until 6 PM on a good day - before grading papers. You know who I think has a better schedule than teachers? Nurses who work that 3-12 hour shift program. 3 days on, 4 days off for a salary that generally dwarfs that of teachers. I had cousins work that schedule for years. Granted, they generally slept until 10 AM on the first day off, but they were practically stay at home moms for a large part of their children's childhood. Once you get seniority in that system, you can arrange it to never work a holiday or during a kid's dance recital or game or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniffler Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 As a teacher... I really enjoy these threads. I actually like hearing other's views regarding the teaching profession. Most of the time, people are ignorant to many of the details that are involved in the daily operation of a school or even a classroom. OP, thanks for posting this. Just wanted to add... While teachers may have a "cushy" schedule, what other professions get paid like teachers do and have to squish 1 year's worth of work into only 9 months? IMO, being required to work that hard over the course of 9 months deserves a couple of weeks off in itself (then again, my opinion is biased). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooper Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Yea. California really cannot be fixed. It's unbelievable.From a demographics to property taxes to the requirements set forth in the proposition system, nothing adds up. Yep. Living here, it drives me crazy. Amazing how much goes back to Prop 13. Jerry Brown has an impossible job. How do you feel about what's going on in your home state right now? I spent a lot of in Dallas and Austin for work this year and absolutely loved both cities. Pretty amazed the state deficit is roughly the same as Cali's. Heck, it's proportionally bigger. What's the deal? It's clearly an easier fix, but not unless Perry starts to govern in a completely different way, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 So if you work in a bad area and they don't turn in homework regularly do you get a pay cut for not working till 10pm every night. The 3rd grade teacher was smart: She hasn't assigned homework this year. You read for 15minutes and turn in a weekly form. My 6th grade AP student doing 8th grade work is not amused when the 8yr old brags about it. That teacher gives out a moutain of work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Yep. Living here, it drives me crazy. Amazing how much goes back to Prop 13. Jerry Brown has an impossible job.How do you feel about what's going on in your home state right now? I spent a lot of in Dallas and Austin for work this year and absolutely loved both cities. Pretty amazed the state deficit is roughly the same as Cali's. Heck, it's proportionally bigger. What's the deal? It's clearly an easier fix, but not unless Perry starts to govern in a completely different way, right? I'm still not completely up to speed on Texas state government as I've only lived here a relatively short time. All I can say is, we are about to see what happens when a large diverse state is run the way Republicans dream of running the country. This is not, you know, Montana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniffler Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Another thing that most people do not understand or even know... The majority of teachers cannot just call in sick. On a sick day, I wake up earlier than a normal school day, venture to work (in traffic), setup sub plans (differentiated work for multiple classes + explanations of every lesson in detail + explanations of classroom routines + explanations of school routines + explanations of behavioral plans for unruly students, etc.), reschedule any meetings missed, and then drive back home/to the doctor. After calling out of work, I cannot just roll back over and go to sleep... I have to put in a minimum of 2-3 hours worth of work before I can even think about resting. I usually leave the house at around 5:30 am and do not get back to my bed until 10 am. I hate sick days for this reason... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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