The Figure Four - ALL Things ECW-WWF-NJPW-TNA-ROH-AEW

[Big Weirdo]

According to Meltzer, the plan is Bryan versus Lesnar for Summerslam. However, Bryan's arm is actually getting weaker during his rehab, which is obviously a big concern. (There is no such thing as "minor" neck surgery).

That will officially cap off one of the weakest title reigns ever. No way they book Bryan to beat Lesnar. Feel sorry for Bryan. Horrible way to have a run with the belt.

That's not true either.

A lot of guys read off scripts. They just happened to be super talented

Rock had cue cards depending on who you ask. Bret Hart used to take like 3667 takes to do one with promo. Sid had the infamous "lets do it again" "we're on live champ" lol

There's a difference between cue cards as talking points and here's exactly what you have to say. And really? Sid? He's a horrible promo. I'm not talking about backstage promos. I'm talking about in the ring and live. Edited June 5, 2014 by Big Weirdo

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

WWE gives guys points that they have to hit on. I'm assuming they do this with just about everyone. When you go out there, in character, and cut a promo I'm sure you can get caught up in the moment and forget those bullet points. Rock's notes probably had a lot to do with those points.

 

That's not true any longer. The WWE scripts every line of every promo.

 

http://deadspin.com/this-is-what-a-wwe-raw-script-looks-like-1570327862

 

This has been well known though. Steve Austin told a story of coming back to Raw a few years ago and seeing Ric Flair in a corner memorizing his lines - which just about blew Steve's brain through the back of his skull. (Also, what's your opinion on John Stossel and don't you think we need more tag teams and babyfaces with fire?")

 

 

The WWE is kind of caught in a strange place. On one hand, they had the Attitude Era. Which was all about naked women, middle fingers, beer and totally non kid friendly stuff. Now they have the PG Era, which is much more kid friendly. The problem is they keep trying to mix the two.

 

Parents won't let their kids watch something that has John Cena running around yelling "****" at Bray Wyatt. That's adult aimed. Meanwhile. El Torito and Hornswaggle are more kid friendly. But the problem is that if parents aren't letting their kids tune in due to language, the kid friendly stuff is being seen by mostly adults who think it's beyond stupid. That casts a shadow over the well done segments.

 

 

I think the great misconception of the attitude era is that it was tits and swearing. Yes, that was part of it, but I thought that was the boring part. Russo seemed to think that was the important part - proving that he didn't understand his own writing.

 

The attitude era was defined by the greatest babyface of all time (Austin) facing the greatest heel of all-time (McMahon). Yes, Austin said "ass" and "hell" instead of "butt" and "heck." But he was basically just an amped up Dusty Rhodes type taking on a heel manager type. It was wrestling 101 with a little more freedom of language and a little more violence.

 

The basic wrestling stuff will ALWAYS work. What takes it to the next level is the charisma and talent of the performers. I can name five guys who would have been okay in the Hogan role in '85 (a clean Kerry Von Erich, a Dusty Rhodes with no booking power, hell Jim Duggan acting more like Mid-South Jim Duggan than WWF Jim Duggan). Hogan was much better than all of them though. Same with Piper in '85.

 

I don't know if any of this stuff will give Raw a 4.5 rating or save the Network. I don't know if the talent is right and I don't know if that is possible in the modern entertainment environement.

 

- Let the guys be amped up versions of themselves. Wrestlers are not actors playing a part.

- Have the babyfaces never give up.

- Have the heels show ass.

- Make the titles matter. Wrestling feuds need to be about SOMETHING.

 

I've been thinking about that final one a lot. Bryan vs The Authority is obviously cribbing from Austin vs. McMahon. Now, the biggest problem with it is that this basic storyline has been on tv non-stop for about 18 years now. It's not fresh at all.

 

But here is maybe the bigger problem: What are they fighting over?

 

McMahon wanted Austin out of the company he created because he was a crude redneck Texan and not worthy to carry the banner of the New York-based, sophisticated WWF. Everyone knew that McMahon saw himself above the Southern rednecks who had run wrestling for 100 years. Everyone knew what his vision of a WWF champion was. And if they didn't know, he explained it really quickly. Forget the logic gap that if McMahon wanted to, he could have fired Austin. He was obviously more interested in beating him down than firing him. It was about vision and manhood and class. It was personal, it was clear, it was mostly logical, and it felt like real stakes.

 

Now, what are Bryan and the Authority fighting over? It's mostly the same thing, I guess. Except it's about HHH who was hired to run the company being upset that Bryan is maybe not quite good enough to be the champion due to some vague criteria that only HHH can really see. That's the whole idea of being a B+. This is about whether Bryan should be in the upper mid card or the main event essentially. Should he make $250,000 a year or $600,000 a year. They are really fighting over a job promotion....not some grand vision.

 

McMahon-Austin was the 1 percent versus the 99 percent. HHH versus Bryan is whether the VP of finance should become the CFO.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

The midcard needs to be carried by well developed, but not too complicated storylines and most importantly, excellent wrestling. The main event needs to have storylines, sometimes complicated, sometimes not, with the WWE's bigger names and good wrestling.

 

 

A good midcard is better than a bad midcard, but it's not essential. The whole reason for minor titles has always been to create mid-card matches with real stakes.

 

Tag team wrestling is an easy way to create a decent mid-card.

 

Two teams fight for the title for three months. The team that wins moves on to the next team. The team that loses breaks up and fights in the mid-card for the next three months. The guy that wins that feud gets elevated to the IC title scene. The guy that loses that feud hires a manager to help him get his mojo back or forms a new tag team.

 

If the guy that wins that feud stays hot, you give him the IC title. If he stays hot with the IC title, you move him up to the world title.

 

By the way, I didn't intend to do this, but I just gave you Shawn Michaels entire career. This is also essentially Bret Hart's career except his tag team just fizzled away instead of breaking up. Granted, his team lasted a lot longer than most. You can always do that too. If one talent in a team is clearly above the other, he doesn't really need the feud. Just have him go solo like a lead singer leaving a popular band.

 

You can also create a heirarchy for titles. In the old days, it was always World Title, Regional Title, TV title.

 

Just make the US title, the third title and have guys worked their way up from that. I really don't know much about MMA, but I assume there is a path you take to the title.

 

It just seems weird to me that HHH and Vince want to make the WWE more realistic but still treat the titles as after-thoughts. Titles are goals for faces because it proves that hardwork and sacrifice pay off. Titles are goals for heels because titles mean money and ****.

Ric Flair's whole reason for being the world champ was that he got laid because of it. How hard is that?

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

According to Meltzer, the plan is Bryan versus Lesnar for Summerslam. However, Bryan's arm is actually getting weaker during his rehab, which is obviously a big concern. (There is no such thing as "minor" neck surgery).

Yeesh that's what started happening to edge towards the end...

Damn

[Gallen5862]

It was simpler in the NWA with Titles meaning something. The Mid Atlantic Champion was the number one contender for the United States Champion, The United Stated Champion was the number one contender for the NWA Heavyweight Championship. The TV title was a special title as the Champion of the Televized shows who defended their title every week on TV with 15 mins or tv time remaining, When the TV Champion defended at house shows it was just the first 15 mins that the title was on the line. When the 15 Mins had passed it just continued as a regular match. The NWA World Tag Team Championships were important because they traveled everywhere defending the Titles. The WWe needs to have some type of similar structure so that the audience would know why each belt was important. Getting a certain title would mean number one contender for the next belt.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Gallen5862

[CrypticVillain]

I like that idea. I loved what TNA did with the X-Division title where whomever was the X-Division Champ at Destination X, was the number one contender for the TNA World Title. The first year it was nice when Aries was calling it "Option C", but when Sabin one it, I was like, meh....

 

But mixing the Intercontinental and US titles with the Heavyweight Title is brilliant. Which means it won't happen. lol

[RVAbrendan]

Not really.

If you go back watch attitude era shows today, a decent amount was actually really bad.

Some of the mid/low angleswere over the top, distasteful, or just really stupid. They benefited from having new stars that will end up as HOFers come around at the same time along with solid secondary guys.

The key isn't being overly violent/sexual or overly kiddy but in a happy medium like in the mid 2000s

 

I remember some pretty awful angles as well. Perhaps it's just the nostalgia factor that gives me a favorable memory of the attitude era (or the 1% vs. the 99% w/ Vince/Austin)... I just feel like we have these huge dudes beating the hell out of eachother... then saying 'heck' and 'butt' - totally downplays what suspended realism is left.

 

I think WWE should play up the 'Paul Heyman guy' angle and have him eventually have his own squad of 5-7 guys who tender to his bidding. Have Heyman play a bigger role in screwjobs, schemes, etc. 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

It was simpler in the NWA with Titles meaning something. The Mid Atlantic Champion was the number one contender for the United States Champion, The United Stated Champion was the number one contender for the NWA Heavyweight Championship. The TV title was a special title as the Champion of the Televized shows who defended their title every week on TV with 15 mins or tv time remaining, When the TV Champion defended at house shows it was just the first 15 mins that the title was on the line. When the 15 Mins had passed it just continued as a regular match. The NWA World Tag Team Championships were important because they traveled everywhere defending the Titles. The WWe needs to have some type of similar structure so that the audience would know why each belt was important. Getting a certain title would mean number one contender for the next belt.

 

Sting should hold all the belts.

[The Evil Genius]

 

 

I think WWE should play up the 'Paul Heyman guy' angle and have him eventually have his own squad of 5-7 guys who tender to his bidding. Have Heyman play a bigger role in screwjobs, schemes, etc. 

 

Give him a tennis racket and he could be the Jim Cornette of the 2010s.

 

edit..I would have said the new version of Jimmy Hart but I doubt that Heyman has 1/10 of the talent that Hart had in real life.

Edited June 5, 2014 by The Evil Genius

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

 

I think WWE should play up the 'Paul Heyman guy' angle and have him eventually have his own squad of 5-7 guys who tender to his bidding. Have Heyman play a bigger role in screwjobs, schemes, etc. 

 

It always comes back to stables, doesn't it?

 

I like stables too. And the best reason for them is just pure greed. The Shield actually had pretty good motivation when they were HHH's hired goons. Young guys sucking up to the boss made sense. And in wrestling, any turn generally makes sense if the original relationship is solid.

 

You could probably get over half the roster by aligning them with Heyman.

 

Here's a fun little angle that would boost the mid-card. It has no big turns. It has no elaborate Russo-booking. It's just an angle that would be cool and easy to pull off.

 

Give Cesaro a title. Any title.

 

Have Heyman come out the next week and cut a promo that basically says, "Look at what happens to the Paul Heyman guys. Brock ends the streak and makes millions NOT wrestling every week. Cesaro becomes whatever he is. And when you stop being a Paul Heyman guy....you end up alone in Chicago playing video games all day." (Cheap Heat that actually sets up a future angle if Punk ever comes back).

 

So, what Heyman is going to do is hold the First Annual You Can Be a Paul Heyman Guy tournament. Applicants need to submit their requests by such and such date.

 

I don't care who decides to do this, but it could be anyone floundering in the mid-card. I would go with 5 dudes and come up with some elaborate round-robin nonsense that only Paul understands. You could even do something whacky and bring in, like, the Sandman as a guest judge or collaborator or something. And make the finals "Extreeeeeeeme". More cheap heat, right? 

 

I mean, this could have something for everyone. I love tournaments. It would be funny. It could get uncomfortably violent. It could be nostalgic. It could change every week. And in the end, you have a winner....and then you screw him over and select someone else because Paul is such a liar and scumbag that of course, he will do something sleazy. Then you have an instant feud.

 

At the end of that feud, the Paul Heyman guy wins....but the other guy earns Paul's respect and he decides that they should be a tag team and sends them after the belts. Because being a Paul E guy means you have to earn.

 

Maybe they win...maybe they fail. At the end, maybe they decide to turn on Paul E. because their checks bounced (insider stuff!!!).

 

That's at least six to eight months of a good and logical storyline that probably elevates someone - because Paul does know how to get people over.

 

You could keep that pairing together until the Rumble and have them turn on each other during the match. Setting up a Wrestlemania blowoff without Paul.

Give him a tennis racket and he could be the Jim Cornette of the 2010s.

 

edit..I would have said the new version of Jimmy Hart but I doubt that Heyman has 1/10 of the talent that Hart had in real life.

 

Just give Paul a cell phone. It worked before.

 

Though the idea of Paul carrying a tennis racket is hysterical on so many levels. Cornette would have an aneurysm.

[CrypticVillain]

Seriously, I gotta question what the heck WWE writers are doing. Either their is some hidden agendas we don't know about, or they are some of the dumbest people. 

This page alone had two good story angles that are logical and make sense. And I'm pretty sure they didn't think too hard about it.

 

But whatever...

[KDawg]

Here's the other thing I was thinking...

 

When I was at the house show about a week after Mania, I couldn't wait for the next match. Why? Because I had no idea who would be coming through the curtain. I realize from a TV point of view they have to advertise something to keep people hooked, but having some of the matches be "surprises" is actually pretty fun.

[MattFancy]

I admittedly don't watch as much as I used to. I still watch Mania and a few RAWs here and there, but of the ones I've seen lately, I'll say this thread as been more entertaining. Which says something about WWE Creative.

[KDawg]

I admittedly don't watch as much as I used to. I still watch Mania and a few RAWs here and there, but of the ones I've seen lately, I'll say this thread as been more entertaining. Which says something about WWE Creative.

 

I don't know if it says something about creative or about the people who are giving creative directives, for whatever reason. There is no way whatsoever that paid writers are missing the things we're talking about. There has to be a reason.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

I think another issue is that the mix of actual wrestling minds and non wrestling minded ppl on creative doesn't work well IMO

[RVAbrendan]

I don't know if it says something about creative or about the people who are giving creative directives, for whatever reason. There is no way whatsoever that paid writers are missing the things we're talking about. There has to be a reason.

 

ding ding ding. Ahem...Vince McMahon.

 

After all, he is the one who conceptualized and executed Mae Young giving birth to a hand...

[KDawg]

I think another issue is that the mix of actual wrestling minds and non wrestling minded ppl on creative doesn't work well IMO

 

 

ding ding ding. Ahem...Vince McMahon.

 

After all, he is the one who conceptualized and executed Mae Young giving birth to a hand...

 

I think both of these statements have merit.

 

It's tough for me to be too critical of Vince McMahon, though, considering he created this empire. He has an idea of what works. Rumor is that ending the streak was his decision and like it or not, that got MAJOR attention for the WWE. He still has an idea of what he's doing, but he needs to start letting someone like Triple H tell him when he's out of his mind on stuff.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I think another issue is that the mix of actual wrestling minds and non wrestling minded ppl on creative doesn't work well IMO

 

From what I can tell, the wrestling mind is a 60 year old, half drunk Michael Hayes, and everyone else is a wannabe SNL writer.

 

I thinkt that's why they like skits and backstage pieces so much.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

I think another issue is that the mix of actual wrestling minds and non wrestling minded ppl on creative doesn't work well IMO

Exactly, because non-wrestling minded people don't know what the true fans want.  They are most likely there to provide insight and tweek it for the average joe, trying to make it appeal to the casual/new fan.  The result is boring for us, cause we've seen it done a hundred times over already.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I think both of these statements have merit.

 

It's tough for me to be too critical of Vince McMahon, though, considering he created this empire. He has an idea of what works. Rumor is that ending the streak was his decision and like it or not, that got MAJOR attention for the WWE. He still has an idea of what he's doing, but he needs to start letting someone like Triple H tell him when he's out of his mind on stuff.

 

I could be wrong, but it always seemed to me like Vince was the CEO/visionary.decider type. It seems like every time he gets directly involved in the booking you end up with really weird stuff that only he finds amusing - like hillbillies. That man loves hillbillies.

 

He's always had bookers (like George Scott or Bruce Pritchard) who mapped out the shows and angles and who worked with the secret weapon of Pat Patterson who was a genious with finishes and blow-offs (wordplay!) and such. Granted, they would have to bring their ideas to Vince for final approval but I don't think he started micromanaging the show until recent years.

 

I think Patterson stepping away (for whatever reason he did) in the mid 2000s may have been the beginning of the boring, repetitive stuff we see now.

 

History lesson: Patterson invented and mapped out every Royal Rumble while he was there. And that match almost never failed to advance two or three storylines while creating one or two new stars when he was in charge of it (except that insane Russo-riffic one that Vince won). He also apparently played a huge role in re-inventing the Rock after "The Blue Chipper" Rocky Maivia crashed and burned so badly.

 

Honestly, a large part of me wishes Vince would go back to being an announcer. He was never Jim Ross, but he knew how to get the angles over....and more importantly, he knew how to get the angles over the way he wanted to get the angles over. If he's going to be yelling into Michael Cole's headset, he might as well be doing the job.

 

The mix right now is really weird. You have Vince who lives on his own planet and has brilliant ideas like creating an Aldous Snow character six years after Forgetting Sarah Marshall. Probably because he watched it while on an elliptical at 3:30 in the morning.

 

You have Steph who thinks that wrestling was invented by her father in 1985 and grew up in McMahonland.

 

(And here is where I tell my story of knowing the guys who went to Stephanie's high school and have been to the McMahon ouse and have scene the oil painting of Vince in a body builder's pose in the foyer).

 

You have HHH who I think wants to produce Championship Wrestling from Florida with more poop jokes wth him in the role of Dusty Rhodes. Except I can't imagine he is going to cross his wife and father in law too often.

 

You have Hayes who really does have a good wrestling mind but is a drunk with an ego the size of Texas and sometimes seems to think it is 1986.

 

And the you have the nameless writers who have an English degree from Bard and want to work in reality tv and may have never seen wrestling before.

 

Edited June 6, 2014 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[KDawg]

 

 

Honestly, a large part of me wishes Vince would go back to being an announcer. He was never Jim Ross, but he knew how to get the angles over....and more importantly, he knew how to get the angles over the way he wanted to get the angles over. If he's going to be yelling into Michael Cole's headset, he might as well be doing the job.

 

I thought Vince was awesome as an announcer. When I was a kid I didn't even know he owned WWE. He just seemed like he was one of the commentators.

 

He probably got away from that because he can't yell at the production guys from the booth! Haha

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I thought Vince was awesome as an announcer. When I was a kid I didn't even know he owned WWE. He just seemed like he was one of the commentators.

 

He probably got away from that because he can't yell at the production guys from the booth! Haha

 

I always knew he owned the WWF because the Apter mags more or less declared war on him in the 80s first when he shut them out from covering his events and later when he admitted that wrestling was fake in a hearing with the New Jersey State Athletic Commission.

 

The Apter mags always ranked Hulk Hogan outside the top five in their rankings and actually took away the "World Title" status for a number of years.....which is kind of hysterical. The AWA had a world champion in Pro Wrestling Illustrated in 1986 while the WWF did not.

 

Here is a fun interview that Gallen will like with Stu Saks of PWI and the other Apter mags.

 

 

KM:  Describe the nature of the London Publishing group's fall-out with the WWF in the mid-1980s. Looking back, do you feel that the editorial stance heavily burying the WWF during that era was correct or was it wrong in hindsight? For that matter, was the coinciding push given to the NWA (especially JCP and World Class) justified or was it a step too far?

 

SS:  It's no secret that the WWF cut off access to wrestling magazines when it began to publish its in-house magazine. That was a big blow to us after all the years we had been welcome to cover their events. At that point, we went into survival mode. We did take some shots at the WWF, and I have admitted in the magazine that in retrospect we were wrong in stripping them of world title status for a period of time.

 

Our goal was not so much to retaliate against the WWF, but to help raise the profile of the NWA, which shared our philosophy of wrestling as sport and which cooperated with our reporters and photographers. We still covered the WWF the best we could given our limitations, and we obviously never burned any bridges, because they eventually lifted the ban and welcomed us back. To this day, we have a terrific relationship, and we still criticize them when we see fit.

 

 

 

 

KM:  Did you ever wish that you could shoot more and kayfabe less in the 1970s, 1980s, and early-1990s?

SS:  I wish I could have kayfabed until the day I died. It's more fun, there's infinitely more story possibilities, and that's the way pro wrestling was meant to be. I've read posts on the KM message board where people criticize us for breaking kayfabe, and I empathize with their view. But I also read one today from someone who said that we can't write down to our readers, and he's right. We can't do the type of stories we did in the past. In fact, one of the issues we had a great time putting together was a Wrestling Superstars where we poked fun at some of the sillier stories we have run in the magazines through the years. The hardest thing for us is to gauge our readership and what they are looking for in the magazines. Having Mitsu Arakawa pearl diving during the atomic bomb attack on Hiroshima and coming up to see his city in ruins is not believable by any standard, but does that make it any less entertaining? Somewhere along the line, we made a conscious decision to be a sports magazine and did away with pearl diving.

 

 

 

 

http://www.kayfabememories.com/Interviews/stusaks-2.htm

Edited June 6, 2014 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[@DCGoldPants]

Watched 10 min of Impact last night. What a crapfest.

 

MVP = Stupid

Lashley = Really

3rd guy = no idea who you are.

 

Then MVP says something how Lashley gave him this great idea. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see them talking.

 

NXT > Impact

[SJValleySkinz]

Turkish guy on guy oil wrestling > TNA. I never thought the final months of WCW could be recreated but they're coming pretty close.

[RVAbrendan]

Is Ken Kennedy still with TNA? I loved him in WWE...was upset to see him go...