The Figure Four - ALL Things ECW-WWF-NJPW-TNA-ROH-AEW

[The Evil Genius]

Personally, I find Mike Tenay and Taz pretty much un-listenable these days...and I used to like both of them back when Tenay was at WCW and Taz was a wrestler.

 

To me - they are a major reason why TNA is mostly a joke. 

Edited June 4, 2014 by The Evil Genius

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

TNA survives because Panda Energy apparently needs to a show a loss somewhere on the ledger sheet and because Spike like a cheap cheap program that draws a 1.0 - thought that has fallen about 15 percent this year.

 

I don't know if I've watched an hour of TNA in my life.

 

I also don't know if Vince would have any interest in their video library when they inevitably fold. Could you sell 5,000 "Best of Impact" DVDs?

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

Lashley is in TNA? Lol

Damn, I haven't watched that in about 5 years.

Truth is that no cares about TNA. You're the first person I've encountered that actually Even knows story lines.

They should have stayed in their lane as a nice little alternative secondary show like arena football.

I don't know the story lines anymore.  I last watched it when the Main Event Mafia was together and right when Hogan and Bishoff went there, but only a few shows, that was back in 2010.  I looked up to see who was on the roster still and who held the belts.  Thing is, TNA could be better if they would do it right.  

 

The bad writers/scripts go way back, it was just one small period that they kinda took off for a bit.  

[CrypticVillain]

Personally, I find Mike Tenay and Taz pretty much un-listenable these days...and I used to like both of them back when Tenay was at WCW and Taz was a wrestler.

 

To me - they are a major reason why TNA is mostly a joke. 

Now that you mention it, Taz does get on my nerves sometimes. And Tenay is meh, at best. Makes me appreciate Cole. And quite frankly, Cole isn't that bad. It's just that when you're so accustomed to having somebody like JR, nobody is going to seem capable anymore.

 

When Evolution re-formed, I got on Cole for not making the moment feel big. But that's not fair to him, because I was comparing him to Jim Ross.

The bad writers/scripts go way back, it was just one small period that they kinda took off for a bit.  

Recently, they have been blatantly ripping off WWE.

 

They've done it before, but it's been like super obvious now. (i.e. a bearded face underdog as champion going against the bosses)

 

I think this was one of the saddest things I saw in professional wrestling...

 

 

http://youtu.be/9_8SUnNyf3E?t=1m22s

[@DCGoldPants]

Only thing TNA does better is their women's division. Velvet Sky FTW

[CrypticVillain]

Only thing TNA does better is their women's division. Velvet Sky FTW

 

This is still one of the best Diva's matches I ever seen...

 

 

Funny thing is, I was watching when you brought up their women's division lol

Edited June 4, 2014 by MLSKINS

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

I find it impossible to believe that the Miz is going to emerge as a major player again. He is mid-card for life now.

Miz is mid-card because he's a mid-card level talent (if that). There is absolutely nothing about the way he looks, talks, or wrestles that would make him a main eventer. I find him incredibly annoying to be honest. They didn't screw up his character to make him a mid-carder. They screwed up by ever having him as the heavyweight champion to begin with (like a lot of other guys).

Edited June 4, 2014 by Sacks 'n' Stuff

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

 There is so much money to be made if you do it right, it baffles me that no billionaire out there hasn't tried to take some of the golden fruit off the tree.

 

I don't think there is any money in it. Maybe in the long-term, but the start up costs are tremendous and the chance for profit extremely thin.

 

You would need to get on tv, because that's the only way to do it. To get on tv, you need a product. To get a product, you need wrestlers. Where are you going to get them? Who are you going to hire? Where are you going to run shows?

 

I'm not sure any wrestling company other than WWF/WWE has been profitable since the early 80s.

 

WCW claimed profitability a few times, but my understanding is that they used a lot of creative accounting to do that. I'm fairly certain that Hulk Hogan's salary was not on their books, for example. I think his contract was with another part of the Turner Empire.

 

(At the same time, I think they used a lot of creative accounting to come up with the $60 million they were allegedly losing at the end, because Jamie Kellner wanted to justify killing it. WCW was always mischaracterized as a wrestling company when it really should have been considered a production studio for Turner. Again, I'm fuzzy on a lot of this, but I don't think WCW "sold" its tv rights to Turner, because it was part of Turner. When Vince "sells" the rights to USA, he gets paid. Turner would have been paying itself. I still think its valuation was all screwed up when it finally collapsed because of this).

 

The way a wrestling promotion could bubble up now is if a content provider decided to do it. But I think the costs are so prohibiltive that they would just decide to do a reality show instead. The concepts are the same. A producer/booker creates a storyline/conflict for the "talent" and then trusts them to largely ad-lib their way through a segment/match.

 

Here is a fun working theory: Reality tv has replaced pro wrestling more than MMA has. Discuss.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Yeah. Amongst other things like 24/7 sports, social media, video games.

Vince knows that and that's why he wants to distance them from wrestling as much as possible

There isn't a market for wrestling in IMO. There's a market for WWE

[KDawg]

Yeah. Amongst other things like 24/7 sports, social media, video games.

Vince knows that and that's why he wants to distance them from wrestling as much as possible

There isn't a market for wrestling in IMO. There's a market for WWE

 

I think WWE would be wise to use some MMA type maneuvers in ring more often. I'm not saying make them real... But study MMA. Apply more MMA type holds as finishers. You can do them without actually applying them.

 

Or, how about finding a guy who's gimmick is mat skills... When someone goes for a spear, they slap on an anaconda choke. They "choke" the guy doing the spear out. MMA type moves could change the match in a millisecond. Helps build anticipation to matches. I'm not saying go crazy... But find ways to implement more.

[lovetoaster]

I think WWE would be wise to use some MMA type maneuvers in ring more often. I'm not saying make them real... But study MMA. Apply more MMA type holds as finishers. You can do them without actually applying them.

 

Well, they have tried that a little with Del Rio, Punk and the Undertaker. The problem is, there is a carryover audience, and if some of that stuff is not done well, and not really applied, it looks a little ridiculous. Del Rio does it pretty well with his arm bar, but some of the stuff Undertaker looked pretty bad at times, IMO. 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Or, how about finding a guy who's gimmick is mat skills... When someone goes for a spear, they slap on an anaconda choke. They "choke" the guy doing the spear out. MMA type moves could change the match in a millisecond. Helps build anticipation to matches. I'm not saying go crazy... But find ways to implement more.

 

Doesn't that beg the question: Why would I watch pretend MMA when I can watch real MMA?

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Part of it has to do with a lot of guys simple not panning out.

Since 2010, the only real stars that have come forward have been Punk (you argue he was already there), Bryan, and.... Um ? Lol

The shield and Bray look to be on their way

Now look at the failures: sheamus (he's won belts but no one cares about him), del rio (same), Miz, Ziggler, Rhodes, Riley, McIntyre, sin cars , kofi (granted I'm not sure they ever saw anything with him ), and Swagger

Barrett and Cesaro could both be on that list too but it looks like they're gonna get another shot.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I actually think the lack of huge stars is partially by design. Do you think Vince likes the fact that The Rock and Lesnar were basically able to leave his company at the height of their powers?

 

John Cena is the perfect "superstar" for WWE. He's a big enough mainstream star to be the second guest on Kimmel once a year. But he's not going to be able to make millions outside the WWE bubble.

 

They would like someone to get as big as Cena...but no bigger. And that's a hard needle to thread especially since Cena is never going to go away.

 

The whole WWE model is breaking down in a lot of ways actually. PPV is dead. House shows have been dying for years. It's basically just tv rights, merch sales, and whatever the Network becomes.

 

Yet, despite all this, the talent does seem as desperate to stick around as in the past. Hell, no one outside of wrestling has any idea who CM Punk is and he apparently made enough money to become a hermit in Chicago for the rest of his life if he chooses. Under no circumstances has Vince ever imagined that the third or fourth biggest name in the company could make enough money at 34 to walk away forever if he wanted to.

 

And I have to think that Bryan Daniel is not going to be a full-time wrestler in three years. He's a tiny dude who spent close to a decade taking ridiculous bumps on bad indie rings. Like Punk, he's probably made enough money to keep himself in vegan food and video games for the rest of his life. And he doesn't strike me as a guy with a wish to end up like Dynamite Kid or Chris Benoit.

 

The only reason I hope TNA sticks around is because it gives guys a chance to milk another two or three years out of their careers at the end thanks to its relatively easy schedule.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

That could be it as well and could explain all the stop/start pushes we see

And the house show market sucks nowadays.

The top guys barely even work them. They're running one at WFC here in Philly on the 22nd.

I have no desire to see anymore live events but my gf is starting to get into wrestling so I thought that I'd surprise her.

The lineup was like an episode of velocity lol

[The Evil Genius]

Seriously, how the hell are Bo Dallas and Bray Wyatt related (they're brothers in real life)?

 

Just shows you how good Wyatt's persona is...rather than when he was Husky Harris.

 

Wyatt looking a little more like Dallas here...

 

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

They look just alike nowadays

[Big Weirdo]

Well, they have tried that a little with Del Rio, Punk and the Undertaker. The problem is, there is a carryover audience, and if some of that stuff is not done well, and not really applied, it looks a little ridiculous. Del Rio does it pretty well with his arm bar, but some of the stuff Undertaker looked pretty bad at times, IMO.

Del Rio fought MMA. Biggest fight was against Cro Cop.

Punk and Taker are both just fans of it. Punk trains with Gracie but I think he'd get wrecked in MMA.

[RVAbrendan]

I know this isn't their demographic nowadays, but if WWE went back to TV-MA and upped the 'violence' (think Mick Foley, ECW), sexuality, and over-the-top arcs, it would benefit them greatly. 

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Not really.

If you go back watch attitude era shows today, a decent amount was actually really bad.

Some of the mid/low angleswere over the top, distasteful, or just really stupid. They benefited from having new stars that will end up as HOFers come around at the same time along with solid secondary guys.

The key isn't being overly violent/sexual or overly kiddy but in a happy medium like in the mid 2000s

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Like do we need more Mae Young type stuff? Or Val Venis getting his junk lopped off? Or Terri getting a miscarriage?

[Big Weirdo]

Not really.

If you go back watch attitude era shows today, a decent amount was actually really bad.

Some of the mid/low angleswere over the top, distasteful, or just really stupid. They benefited from having new stars that will end up as HOFers come around at the same time along with solid secondary guys.

The key isn't being overly violent/sexual or overly kiddy but in a happy medium like in the mid 2000s

At least the midcard had something to do.

Attitude Era was over the top (even though that's kind of the point) but at least the midcard felt important. No one cares about any of the lower tiered belts anymore. Rumor is Triple H wants to rebuild the midcard and make it important again. The tournament for the IC contender spot was cool. That had to be Triple H's idea since Vince hates tournaments. But that was a good start to making it feel important again.

I don't think the WWE needs to go more mature. They need to better develop their guys so they're not as boring as a ring post on a microphone. And not be so damn scripted. That really kills the emotion of it all. No one in the Attitude Era or before read from a script.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Big Weirdo

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

That's not true either.

A lot of guys read off scripts. They just happened to be super talented

Rock had cue cards depending on who you ask. Bret Hart used to take like 3667 takes to do one with promo. Sid had the infamous "lets do it again" "we're on live champ" lol

[KDawg]

That's not true either.

A lot of guys read off scripts. They just happened to be super talented

Rock had cue cards depending on who you ask. Bret Hart used to take like 3667 takes to do one with promo. Sid had the infamous "lets do it again" "we're on live champ" lol

 

WWE gives guys points that they have to hit on. I'm assuming they do this with just about everyone. When you go out there, in character, and cut a promo I'm sure you can get caught up in the moment and forget those bullet points. Rock's notes probably had a lot to do with those points.

 

The WWE is kind of caught in a strange place. On one hand, they had the Attitude Era. Which was all about naked women, middle fingers, beer and totally non kid friendly stuff. Now they have the PG Era, which is much more kid friendly. The problem is they keep trying to mix the two.

 

Parents won't let their kids watch something that has John Cena running around yelling "****" at Bray Wyatt. That's adult aimed. Meanwhile. El Torito and Hornswaggle are more kid friendly. But the problem is that if parents aren't letting their kids tune in due to language, the kid friendly stuff is being seen by mostly adults who think it's beyond stupid. That casts a shadow over the well done segments.

 

NXT is better at this balance. I wouldn't say they are kiddy. They have an edge. But it's not an over-the-top edge. Honestly, NXT is an overall better product than WWE right now as far as production, scripting, writing and wrestling. That's not to say that NXT is better than WWE when they are both on their game...

 

The Shield, Daniel Bryan, Brock Lesnar, Bray Wyatt, John Cena, Cesaro, Sheamus (he bores me, but the guy is pretty good in the ring), Evolution, the Usos, and Barrett among others can all go and put on absolutely awesome performances. And most people realize that. The problem is the "other stuff". Adam Rose's gimmick in a vacuum isn't bad. It's actually kind of funny... But haven't we seen enough of the dancing gimmick lately? Brodus Clay had one. Xavier Woods tried to steal that gimmick. Fandango has one. It's all repetitive and boring. How about Sandow dressing in different stuff and having different music/outfits each week? In a vacuum, that gimmick could work. Problem is, 3MB does it too. Boring.

 

The midcard needs to be carried by well developed, but not too complicated storylines and most importantly, excellent wrestling. The main event needs to have storylines, sometimes complicated, sometimes not, with the WWE's bigger names and good wrestling.

 

Like I've been saying, a Big E 5-count gimmick tells it's own story. It can be used in many ways. He can beat people using a 5-count. He can lose to people because he insists on a 5-count. It tells it's own story.

 

Furthermore, I like RVD's matches, but every time you see him in a big match you know he's not there to win it. RVD involvement in the midcard doesn't progress the division unless he's actually a threat. And he's not.

 

The midcard would be better with guys who could actually win the titles competing for them. Do you know why the streak ending or Rollins turning were successful even though fans had real mixed reactions? It was unexpected. Predictability is killing wrestling. That's why when people say things like, "Well Bray Wyatt lost. He's done." I cringe... Yes, he lost. He has to lose. Cena is still the face of the company, like it or not. Beating Bray Wyatt is something that doesn't hurt Bray and it keeps Cena strong. Ultimately, I see Bray going over Cena down the road... But that loss could signal the second phase of Wyatt's career.

 

An occasional loss isn't a bad thing, especially to someone established. Those established guys have to win for their losses to mean anything or they'll create a perpetual cycle... We know they are in the match to lose, why bother watching?

 

To fix the problem I'd say you have to eliminate guys who we KNOW aren't going to win a title from title matches. An intriguing title match is someone like Barrett vs. Cesaro. I have no idea who wins that one, the WWE likes both, obviously. An intriguing title match is Brock Lesnar vs. Daniel Bryan (not from a realistic point of view... Lesnar would destroy pretty much any WWE wrestler in a fight, and Bryan beating him isn't believable in real life... But in a wrestling world point of view, Bryan COULD win that match given all of the obstacles he's overcome). John Cena vs. Brock Lesnar is intriguing. Roman Reigns vs. Seth Rollins is intriguing. Dean Ambrose vs. Seth Rollins is intriguing. Randy Orton vs. Batista (if he comes back on a more "full-time basis") is intriguing.

 

I'd also avoid having virtually every feud be three months long. How about some one-offs? NXT does a good job with that, and then a couple months down the road they'll have the guys meet up again and possibly with a different result or the same result. It's not predictable.

 

I like WWE still. But I do find moments where I stare in awe at how obvious things are. That's why I loved the streak ending ultimately. That's why I love the Rollins turn. I didn't see it coming.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

According to Meltzer, the plan is Bryan versus Lesnar for Summerslam. However, Bryan's arm is actually getting weaker during his rehab, which is obviously a big concern. (There is no such thing as "minor" neck surgery).