Evaluating Jay Gruden in 2018

[Peregrine]

On 4/6/2018 at 1:16 PM, Voice_of_Reason said:

Based on the fact they’ve been talking about it for 4 months. And they look to be drafting a RB early.  If they don’t, maybe I change my mind on this.  But I think they’re going to fix this because they are going to emphasize it...

I see your point but trying to separate things in Grudens control vs what are not.  He can’t make Bruce Allen spend money and get players.  So I can’t hold him entirely responsible for the record. 

 

But I can judge him on the things I listed above. And I tried to make that list as things mostly in his control as a HC 

I see the username was an ironic sarcastic choice.

 

1 playoffs in 5 years.  If you cant judge based on that objective fact, you cant judge at all.  Good GMs chose good coaches, bad ones chose bad coaches.  If it is Allens fault, hes a bad GM, which means 90% odds Gruden is a bad coach.

[Voice_of_Reason]

4 hours ago, Peregrine said:

I see the username was an ironic sarcastic choice.

 

1 playoffs in 5 years.  If you cant judge based on that objective fact, you cant judge at all.  Good GMs chose good coaches, bad ones chose bad coaches.  If it is Allens fault, hes a bad GM, which means 90% odds Gruden is a bad coach.

Ok, first, I'm absolutely one of the biggest critics of Gruden on this board, and that hasn't really changed.  I dont' think you'll find a single post in this thread or anywhere where I really DEFEND Gruden about anything.  

 

In fact, one of the points of the thread was to point out that while Allen might (in my opinion is) completely incapable of doing his job, that doesn't let Gruden off the hook for things that are in his control. There are some folks who think that since Allen is such a dope, it's impossible to judge Grden because he has nothing to work with.  I take issue with that point of view, and listed out a bunch of things in the OP which I believe ARE in the HC's control with whatever roster he is given.  

 

I don't buy, though, that because Allen is a bad GM, Gruden is a bad coach because he was hired by Allen.  That's a bit of a stretch, even for me.

 

I can say that in the past, Gruden's teams have: 1. Come up small in big moments, 2. Blows a lot of leads and allow teams to come back on them with regularity, 3. had miserable end of half defenses under all three of his DCs, 4. hasn't been able to run the ball at all, 5. always seem to start slowly. 

 

And for the record, he's been to the playoffs once in 4 years.  He's entering his 5th season.  

 

Again, the point of this thread is FORWARD looking.  How are you going to judge Gruden in 2018?  I put my criteria in the OP, and won't repeat it here.

 

Some are saying they can't grade him at all because Allen is an idiot.  Ok, that's their point of view. I don't agree, but it's their point of view, and they're entitled to it.  

 

Based on your previous point, you might say that in year 5, the only criteria is wins and losses, and if he doesn't get to 10 wins and the playoffs, it's a failure.  And I couldn't argue with that either. And I tend to be more on that side of the equation myself, as record, and specifically division record, was one of my criteria.   Though I'm looking at other items as well.  

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

On 4/6/2018 at 1:43 PM, goskins10 said:

Great post pretty fair too - this from someone who has been at complete odds with you most of the time in terms of Jay!    Well done. Following are my thoughts. 

I tried, I really tried to be as impartial as I possibly could be.  I have to admit, at times, it was a bit of a struggle. Chuckle.  

 

On 4/6/2018 at 1:43 PM, goskins10 said:

 

I also want to see the team start better. Not going to put a number on things. But I want to see a more inspired effort right out of the gate. If they lose kicking and swinging **** happens. But I agree their efforts on opening day has been less than inspiring. 

Exactly.  I forgive 2014, his first year HC and he had the RGIII debacle.  Since then, it's been "meh."  And I think it all starts with attitude, preparation and training camp.  

 

On 4/6/2018 at 1:43 PM, goskins10 said:

 

Again can;t argue here except to echo what some others have said - have we really had the talent? I do not think that's the entire solution. Jay has not been a big run guy even when he was in Cinn. I don;t think we need to see more running per say, just more effective running and better timed running. Very few times has the team gotten up by more than one score and been able to play ball control. I get keeping your foot on the peddle but don;t give the other team extra possessions. Make them earn it. Now some of that is defenses giving up late leads but he owns some of that too. I am excited to see year 2 of Manusky. I liked what we saw in the first 5 gms before all the injuries. 

A couple points here:

1. I think the run scheme is very vanilla, and extraordinarily predictable. When Ryan Grant was on the field and motioned tight to the formation, it was 100% run to that side.  A complete tell.  That was the most obvious example, but there are others based on personnel and formation. 

2. To go with #1, we had that little flanker screen which actually worked pretty well, and we called it like once a game.  If you look at the teams who commit to the run and run the ball well, they have a lot of creativity, which we just have not had under Gruden.

3. We are predictable in WHEN we run the ball, though that improved a bit through last year.   I think I almost got myself banned for predicting (and then being right) and complaining about first down runs for -1 to +1 yard on 90% of 1st downs.  And while Jay wasn't the play caller in 2015, McVay picked up the bad habit, and it was evident in the Dallas MNF loss.  He then realized it, and didn't do it again.  I cursed Gruden about it well into the 2017 season.  We run too much on 1st down, our of predictable sets, and it's ineffective.  And hasn't chnaged in years.  Hell, even JON Gruden commented about it on the Chief's MNF game.  

4. We have had more 10 point+ leads than people realize.  I was actually shocked, but Cooley actually broke down ever one during the season last year, I think going back to 2016.  We get a 10 point lead, an IMMEDIATELY let teams back in.  The typical scenario is (We go up by 2 scores) - Opponent scores TD, we go 3-out, they score again.  It's remarkable. 

 

I do agree wholeheartedly, we don't need MORE running, we need BETTER running.  

 

And I absolutely without any question hold Allen and his merry band of misfits culpable for not getting talent to run the ball (RB, TE, WR), I put it on Gruden to not at least find a way to be more creative and try different things, rather than trying the same thing that hasn't work for literally 3 years.  

 

On 4/6/2018 at 1:43 PM, goskins10 said:

 

The 2 min offense have actually been pretty good. Where the problem has been is end of half and game Def. Kirk and the offense have generated more scoring in the final minutes of a game than people realize. Much of that is because we still lose due to the defense not stopping people enough. Just a few stops by the D the last few years and this team could have had 10 wins all 3 yrs without changing anything else. 

Ok, I'll give you the 2 minute offense being ok.  Though the hurry-up hasn't really hurried up as well as I would like, and we don't go to it soon enough.  Ever.  Maybe that's on Kirk not having the cardiovascular endurance, ala McNabb....

 

The defense in 2 minutes has been absolutely horrid.  And it's been horrid in those situations when it's been reasonably good otherwise.  That's approach, scheme and coaching.  And it's been that way through 3 defensive coordinators.

 

I'm looking this year to see a massive improvement here.  Hopefully health and some additional attention to it will help.  For whatever reason, I kinda feel good about this one.  

 

On 4/6/2018 at 1:43 PM, goskins10 said:

I answered this in the run game question. But I agree. Get up and stay up. Every game does not have to be filled with last minute drama! I know my heart would appreciate that. 

Defense holding would help, and running the ball better would help.  But what I don't want to see is going completely conservative and trying to milk a lead. 

 

The absolute best 6 minute offense I've ever seen was the mid-2000's Colts.  Peyton would still get everybody up to the line in no-huddle, would gesture around like a complete fool for 20 seconds, snap the ball at 1 second, and would mix run/pass about 50/50.  Lots of short stuff, easy completion things in the pass game, and complementary run game.  They WORE OUT that stretch-run play where Peyton would sprint out ("sprint" used loosely), and either hand the ball or pullit for a quick hitter.  It was a thing of absolutely beauty.  Granted, they had Peyton, James, Harrison, Wayne, Dallas Clark ...  So, they were kinda stacked everywhere...

 

 

On 4/6/2018 at 1:43 PM, goskins10 said:

 

i want to see consistency. We come out on fire for some games - even important games. But then others they are flat. This goes back to the opening day thing. I never want to lose but if you lose playing your heart out, fine. It's not always going to go your way. But sometimes it looks like they are all sleep walking out there. 

Yeah, I think that was my original point.  No duds.  

 

On 4/6/2018 at 1:43 PM, goskins10 said:

 

I can't hold the record fully against him right now. There are too many moving parts. To me I still do not think Bruce is giving him the players he needs. He is doing better than some say but there is still a lot to be desired. 

Agree.  And why I started the thread, to separate what is in Gruden's control, and what is not.  

 

That said, he's had some HORRIBLE losses, none worst that the season finally in 2016 in a win-and-in game against the Giants.  That was NOT on Allen.  That was on Jay, the entire coaching staff, and all the players.  

 

Also, I'm NEVER going to give him a pass on hiring the DC with the worst resume in the history of football, and then having him prove that he's the worst DC in the history of football, again.  That was a bonehead hire.  

 

On 4/6/2018 at 1:43 PM, goskins10 said:

In the end I want to see a team that works it's ass off for 60 minutes every game of every season. That all the players leave it all on the field every game, win or lose. That would probably be my biggest complaint about Jay so far. Some of that is on the players. You need to be somewhat self starting . But it's also his job to motivate guys and make them understand half-assing it will not fly. Sit guys down if they are going through the motions - and I don;t care who they are. 

Here are the things I put as "job description" of an NFL HC:

 

1. Organization - make sure that everything runs smoothly, everybody knows where they are supposed to be, and when they are supposed to be there.

2. Motivation - this is different by player, but it's the HC's responsibility to get the team prepared to play

3. Coaching Staff - hire the best coaching staff to implement your vision. 

4. Accountability - hold both coaches and players accountable for their behavior and production.  If your'e doing well, you get praise, if not you get the boot. 

5. Game Managment - I put this last for a reason.  If you do the other 4 things really well, this one might slip, and it might just be ok most of the time  Andy Reid couldn't manage a clock, but he does the other things so well, at least in the regular season, he wins A LOT of games.  

 

Attention to Detail fits under accountability to me, but it's huge.  

 

On 4/6/2018 at 1:43 PM, goskins10 said:

Good discussion though. Thanks for starting the thread. 

 

Thanks, if it stays on topic and about forward looking, it'll be ok.  

 

On 4/6/2018 at 9:52 PM, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

I really like Jay.  I hope it works out.  I give us one chance in ten.

There's a fantastic scene in "The Hunt of Red October" where Ramsey gives them "one chance in three"

 

 

 

On 4/9/2018 at 10:19 AM, Reaper Skins said:

Doesn't Callahan call all the running plays?

I don't think anybody really knows exactly, but what I understand is that he's the run game coordinator, but Jay decides on which runs in which situations.  

 

On 4/9/2018 at 12:23 PM, SWFLSkins said:

 

Is this the wrong thread. Well I don't know if Buy or Sell, hold even was fair to the Coach last year, but for now..........

You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to run.

You never count your money, when you're sitting at the table, 

They'll be plenty of time for counting when the dealin's done.

 

(Yes, wrong thread, but I'll never pass up an opportunity to quote The Gambler.  

 

 

On 4/9/2018 at 8:51 PM, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Jay has never had a running game or defense, I find it very hard to believe that he thinks the QB of all positions was holding the team back.

Well, he's been raving about what Alex will do that Kirk didn't.  For whatever that's worth.

 

And he hasn't had a defense because he agreed to retain a bozo DC, then hired a worse bozo as a DC.  I swear Haz and Barry would have made the '85 bears absolutely ordinary.  Manusky looks promising though.  Third time might be a charm...

[88Comrade2000]

On 4/9/2018 at 8:51 PM, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Where did you hear this?

 

This sounds like a case of selective reading/hearing.

 

Jay has never had a running game or defense, I find it very hard to believe that he thinks the QB of all positions was holding the team back.

 

 

It's inferring.  He said he felt we upgraded at the QB.  If we upgraded at the QB position, then he feels the previous QB held the team back. 

[skins island connection]

6 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said:

It's inferring.  He said he felt we upgraded at the QB.  If we upgraded at the QB position, then he feels the previous QB held the team back. 

 

 Well, we will see if Gruden continues to get ' lost in the moment ' in close games, if there are any this year.

 But then again, Smith may realize he downgraded at the coaching position as well...

[SWFLSkins]

 On 4/9/2018 at 12:23 PM, SWFLSkins said:

 

Is this the wrong thread. Well I don't know if Buy or Sell, hold even was fair to the Coach last year, but for now..........

You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to run.

You never count your money, when you're sitting at the table, 

They'll be plenty of time for counting when the dealin's done.

 

(Yes, wrong thread, but I'll never pass up an opportunity to quote The Gambler.  

 

---The in-depth analysis here is fair compared to the Old Buy or Sell thread, which was you know, reactionary, Wall Street like.....hahahhaa 

 

When it comes to my Fandom for the Redskins...............

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

8 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said:

It's inferring.  He said he felt we upgraded at the QB.  If we upgraded at the QB position, then he feels the previous QB held the team back. 

What else is he supposed to say?

 

The team just gave up a 3rd round pick and Kendall Fuller for Smith.  It wouldn't be very inspiring for anyone involved if he said "Well, I think it's kind of a wash, who knows? We'll just have to wait and see."  Either way, it's a stretch to make it out to be him saying that Kirk held this team back.  I mean anyone with eyes could glaringly see what truly held this team back as it's the same things that held this team back the past 3 seasons.

[crabbypatty]

I'll evaluate this joker on whether or not he can actually beat ****ing dallass more than twice in 4 years.

so far he's a dismal failure in both overall wins, and beating dallass.. a overwhelming big fat F.

 

He's been our head coach for 4 years now, headed into his 5th. During those 4 years his season records, and records vs dallass are:

2014 - 4-12, last place finish     Oct 27 @ cowboys, W 20-17, Dec 28 vs cowboys L 17-44

2015 - 9-7  , first place finish     Dec 7 vs cowboys, L 16-19, Jan 3 at cowboys W 34-23

2016 - 8-7-1, third place finish   Sep 18 vs cowboys, L 23-27, Nov 24 at cowboys L 26-31

2017 - 7-9 , third place finish     Oct 29 at cowboys, L 19-33, Nov 30 at cowboys L 14-38

 

During that time he has faced the cowboys 8 times and has a dismal 2-6 record against them.

In those 8 games the team has scored a total of 169 points, averaging 21 ppg against the cowboys.

Dallas has scored a total of 232 points, averaging 29 ppg against the skins.

 

Completely unacceptable imo. He needs to figure out a way to beat those guys ricky tick. I'm sick of the stupid smug looks on their stupid fans' faces.

[HTTRDynasty]

^ We're not going to consistently beat Dallas until we have a defense that isn't bottom of the league against the run.  Expecting to beat a team where their greatest strength is your greatest weakness is just asking to be disappointed.

[SWFLSkins]

On 4/10/2018 at 5:20 PM, Peregrine said:

I see the username was an ironic sarcastic choice.

 

1 playoffs in 5 years.  If you cant judge based on that objective fact, you cant judge at all.  Good GMs chose good coaches, bad ones chose bad coaches.  If it is Allens fault, hes a bad GM, which means 90% odds Gruden is a bad coach.

 

As a fellow long time member I find it ironic you would use Voice of Reasons user name as a point of Irony, now get that fly out of my Chardonnay. I paid like $9. dollars a glass for it. 

[Wyvern]

One thing Gruden has not done well -- he's supposed to be a great offensive coordinator, but to so far, most can agree his offenses have been fairly "one-dimensional."  

 

Gruden's had a decent passing QB who's regarded enough as a passing threat that it could open up a running game.  Moreover the Skins offensive line (well most of it) has enough quality parts that could probably support a running game too.  ....But Gruden offenses have never shown, a reliable running game that could move the chains, or even be viewed as enough of a threat  to keep the DEs and linebackers honest, and not just tee'ing off on the passer.

 

That's a valid negative on Gruden's tenure -- 4 years later and his offense is still one-dimensional.

[onedrop]

17 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

One thing Gruden has not done well -- he's supposed to be a great offensive coordinator, but to so far, most can agree his offenses have been fairly "one-dimensional."  

 

Gruden's had a decent passing QB who's regarded enough as a passing threat that it could open up a running game.  Moreover the Skins offensive line (well most of it) has enough quality parts that could probably support a running game too.  ....But Gruden offenses have never shown, a reliable running game that could move the chains, or even be viewed as enough of a threat  to keep the DEs and linebackers honest, and not just tee'ing off on the passer.

 

That's a valid negative on Gruden's tenure -- 4 years later and his offense is still one-dimensional.

agreed. its a bit strange, almost as if gruden is better suited to a more primitive game.....i don't know maybe like THE ARENA LEAGUE?

 

jokes aside, or half jokes, i don't think he's a "bad" coach. I've thought since the beginning that gruden looked overmatched most games and in general. needless to say he hasn't done much to dispel that idea. one thing i know for sure, if he straight gives up on another game when we still have a chance to win, literally quits trying, i am done with him

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, HTTRDynasty said:

^ We're not going to consistently beat Dallas until we have a defense that isn't bottom of the league against the run.  Expecting to beat a team where their greatest strength is your greatest weakness is just asking to be disappointed.

Truer words were never spoken. We all have the same nightmare. Dallas O line pushing our D all over the field and watching a second string back ring up a record breaking game against us. When will this end Jay? Draft or sign the best run stoppers now. Get the best back avail, in the draft and get a LG AND START RUNNING THE BALL FOR CHRISTS SAKE. You have to run the ball a hell of a lot to get good at it. It uses up the clock, lets our D rest to boot. Even a pee wee coach knows this. This should be Jays last year if things do not improve. Yes I know injuries, but the Giants had more injuries than us and they still ran the ball down our throats. They were smarter too, they lost enough to get high picks. Jay had to win 2 out of 3 of those last games which meant nothing except a stinker draft. 

[skinzplay]

The team had better not come out looking flat and unprepared in the season opener, I know that much. We've seen that tone-setter far too many times during his tenure. I want our boys to succeed, but coaching -- preparation, strategy, leadership -- is either there or it ain't. By your fifth year as a HC in this league, you should be able to show all of that. If not, go back to being a coordinator. Let's hope this is the year that Gruden shows us something; otherwise, he's just biding his time til he can set up shop at Paul Brown Stadium.

[Wildbunny]

3 hours ago, skinzplay said:

The team had better not come out looking flat and unprepared in the season opener, I know that much. We've seen that tone-setter far too many times during his tenure. I want our boys to succeed, but coaching -- preparation, strategy, leadership -- is either there or it ain't. By your fifth year as a HC in this league, you should be able to show all of that. If not, go back to being a coordinator. Let's hope this is the year that Gruden shows us something; otherwise, he's just biding his time til he can set up shop at Paul Brown Stadium.

I'm not mad at being slow starting the season.

 

Good teams most often starts slows and finish strong. Basically, that's the physical and conditioning trainers that are getting their players ready for November/December and January, so they hit their peek of form around those dates. If you hit it early, your players will be gased by late october/november and you're good for a fall with injuries.

 

Going 4-4 for the first 8 games keeps you in the mix of things mostly with reasonnables chances of succes. So I'm fine with it. Sure it doesn't look good to start slow as we had some times, but to me, that's no big deal IMO

[CutPryorNow]

On 4/11/2018 at 6:46 AM, skins island connection said:

 

 Well, we will see if Gruden continues to get ' lost in the moment ' in close games, if there are any this year.

 But then again, Smith may realize he downgraded at the coaching position as well...

Maybe I am just a complete idiot when it comes to coaching evaluation, but are you serious about Andy Reid being a significant or even a letter grade better coach than Jay Gruden? I live in Kansas City and have watched the Chiefs play on a consistent basis and to be honest a lot of the same criticisms we make against Gruden are constantly harped on here in the KC area by analysts, talk radio and other critics. Now I admit I just don't like Reid, but I think I can make an objective enough evaluation of him despite my feeling towards him and say Jay is just as good...

[TD_washingtonredskins]

On 4/14/2018 at 6:52 PM, CutPryorNow said:

Maybe I am just a complete idiot when it comes to coaching evaluation, but are you serious about Andy Reid being a significant or even a letter grade better coach than Jay Gruden? I live in Kansas City and have watched the Chiefs play on a consistent basis and to be honest a lot of the same criticisms we make against Gruden are constantly harped on here in the KC area by analysts, talk radio and other critics. Now I admit I just don't like Reid, but I think I can make an objective enough evaluation of him despite my feeling towards him and say Jay is just as good...

 

12 of Reid's 19 years have been double-digit win seasons, including his 2nd through 4th years. Gruden in 4 years hasn't won more than 9 yet. 

 

I don't think there's any metric I could look at and NOT think Reid is significantly better than Gruden. And I LIKE Gruden...a lot. I want him to work out and think he has the right demeanor to succeed here. But results are results...

[joeken24]

So Gruden has won championships (all be it in Arena football). He was also apart of the Buccaneers when they won SB XXXVII. He's won championships and MVPs as a player. So its not like he doesn't understand what it takes to win. 

 

But here's my concern.....

 

I was reading an article today where Danny Amendola was talking about Belichick. As I read it, I thought about the winning coaches over the years. A lot of them were rough around the edges sort a speak. Coaches like K (Krzyzewski) from Duke, Greg Popovich, Tom Coughlin, Bill Parcells, and even the first Joe Gibbs (according to the players that knew him then) to name a few. 

 

Here's a little of what Amendola said about Belichick:

"It's not easy, that's for sure. He's an a--h--- sometimes. There were a lot of things I didn't like about playing for him, but I must say, the things I didn't like were all in regards to getting the team better, and I respected him," he said. "I didn't like practicing in the snow, I didn't like practicing in the rain, but that was going to make us a better football team and that was going to make me a better football player. It wasn't easy, and he'd be the first to admit, at the [Super Bowl] ring ceremony, that it wasn't easy playing for him. The silver lining was that we were at the ring ceremony."

 

Personally that resonated with me. I remember may abysmal days at Parris Island (Marine Corps bootcamp). My drill instructors (DIs) were absolute (fill in the blank with any derogatory word you want and it would be fitting). I remember laying in bed trying to figure out ways to harm both of 'em. But the day I marched across that parade deck with my Dress Blues soon to be a Marine was one of proudest moments of my life. It was all because of those drill instructors. Hoorah!!!

 

So I say all that to say this. I am not behind those doors at Redskins park, so I don't know if Jay Gruden effectively leads this team like a DI or any of the coaches mentioned. But I have seen this:

 

 

So while he may be a great guy or even a player's coach, I'm just not sure if his leadership style will equate to perennial winning. Maybe I'm just being old school. But if my drill instructor or my high school football coach (Dan Faust) played pinchy pinch with us or was anything less than a stickler for perfection, professionalism and discipline, I would've never won a state championship and I would have been **** bird Marine (Marines know that term).

 

If there is a fun loving coach out there that's won a lot of championships, let me know.

 

On a lighter note, if DJack would have pinched Bill Parcell's b.......

Stop it!!! I digress.

 

 

[HTTRDynasty]

Meh, I wouldn't look too much into it.  Doug Pederson seems like the ultimate "Player's Coach" from what I've heard and read.  Hell, he even lets players design plays on a week to week basis and will actually run them in games if he likes them.

[joeken24]

11 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Meh, I wouldn't look too much into it.  Doug Pederson seems like the ultimate "Player's Coach" from what I've heard and read.  Hell, he even lets players design plays on a week to week basis and will actually run them in games if he likes them.

Maybe.

 

But Doug Pederson has won only one championship. A lot of coaches/teams obtained "lightening in a bottle" and end up winning a championship. A couple years later, that very coach is coaching somewhere else.

 

I'd like the Redskins to have a legendary coach. Most time's legendary coaches (and even leaders, I might add) are ass holes. Legendary coaches don't get pinched in the man boob. Players or subordinates wouldn't even think of it. Just sayin' there is a something to a leader where (despite how their players feel about him/her personally) players will run through a brick wall for that coach to achieve the greatness that coach exemplifies and demands.  

 

Now with that being said, maybe Jay gets the pieces to win a championship. Great!!! I hope that happens a lot. 

 

 

[88Comrade2000]

On 4/14/2018 at 6:52 PM, CutPryorNow said:

Maybe I am just a complete idiot when it comes to coaching evaluation, but are you serious about Andy Reid being a significant or even a letter grade better coach than Jay Gruden? I live in Kansas City and have watched the Chiefs play on a consistent basis and to be honest a lot of the same criticisms we make against Gruden are constantly harped on here in the KC area by analysts, talk radio and other critics. Now I admit I just don't like Reid, but I think I can make an objective enough evaluation of him despite my feeling towards him and say Jay is just as good...

Andy has a ceiling, but his ceiling is way higher than Jay's.

 

Andy had the Eagles in 5 Championship games, including one Superbowl appearance.  Jay has only had 1 playoff birth in his 4 years with the Redskins. A playoff birth where the rest of the NFC East collapsed that year.  It was almost handed to him.

[CutPryorNow]

9 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said:

Andy has a ceiling, but his ceiling is way higher than Jay's.

 

Andy had the Eagles in 5 Championship games, including one Superbowl appearance.  Jay has only had 1 playoff birth in his 4 years with the Redskins. A playoff birth where the rest of the NFC East collapsed that year.  It was almost handed to him.

I know what the facts are. I. just. don't. like. the. porker. andy. reid. and. i. live. here. in. kc. so. i. am. allowed. to. dislike. him. 

[NickyJ]

4 hours ago, CutPryorNow said:

I know what the facts are. I. just. don't. like. the. porker. andy. reid. and. i. live. here. in. kc. so. i. am. allowed. to. dislike. him. 

You. are. allowed. to. dislike. him. but. who. allowed. you. to. put. periods. at. the. end. of. every. word.?

.You .are .only .allowed .to .put .periods .at .the .beginning .of .words .now

[Veryoldschool]

Want to evaluate Gruden?  Fine, he inherited a putrid team and turned it into a mediocre one ahead of an accumulation of talent.  He showed bold leadership standing up to Snyder and insisting Snyder allow them to bench Griffin and go with Cousins.  Gruden produced 3 .500 seasons in a row despite a weak roster in my opinion.  The OL cannot run block and defense still can't defend very well although progress may have been masked last season because of the epic number of injuries.  It will be interesting if the defense is improved this year.  I  look at the Skins roster and think the Skins are still several good drafts away from being better than .500.  One last note in Gruden's favor is I think the team has always played for him.  This was especially impressive this past year.  I think Cousins deserves a large measure of praise for this tenacity but Jay also.

If Jay can manage a .500 year this season I would be pleased and think he should be extended.  

 

I want the GM fired, whoever that is, we don't know because no one wants the title.  The roster management is I think that goes to the ownership.  I want Allen and Williams fired and a real GM hired and Snyder to actually surrender control of his fantasy team to an NFL professional if one is willing to work for him.

 

That brings up my last post, who would take the job if Gruden is fired?  Let's assume Gruden squeaks out another .500 season and Snyder listens to Gruden's critics and fires him, who would want the job?  It's a multi-million dollar job so there will be candidates but only the third tier guys would be willing to come and work for Snyder.

[joeken24]

I think the Bruce Allen narrative is just a bunch sheep speak.

 

I mean think about it....if that was the case, it would speak to all the guys (I consider straight shooters) as yes men. In other words, when one says that Bruce is some slim type guy trying to run the team down or is some evil guy; what they're saying indirectly is that Jay Gruden, BMitch, Doc Walker, Doug Williams, Santana Moss, Fred Smoot (and the list could go on) are somehow yes men and simply put their heads in the sand as Bruce Allen runs the team in the ground. I mean at some point, if Bruce was this much of an ass, at least Smoot, Santana, BMitch or Portis would have had words with him by now? Hell, as many times as BMitch has gone off in the post game or on the radio, don't you think he would have mentioned Bruce by now?

 

Just sayin'