Lets Say We Do Nothing Else: Are there enough weapons here?

[nkoucheki]

Take your feelings about Pierre and Desean and contracts and cap implications etc out of this. That is a separate conversation but the fact is they are two pretty good weapons. Quarterbacks need their toys to get things done. With the roster currently constructed, do we have enough firepower? Tight End is obviously a strength, our running backs mediocre at best, and the receiver corps as it stands... I'll cede the floor

[RabidFan]

Ok I'll bite. 

 

Reed and Davis are passing game weapons,  Paul, if stays and healthy can be as well.  Remember his crossing patterns that were big gains a few years back...got in touch with his former WR game.  Don't expect much but he can catch and run if used on special occasions.

 

Pryor is a beach and if keeps up what he started could command some double teams which would open the slot.

 

The key is to try and keep Crowder in the slot where he is a giant mismatch.  So if Doctson/Harris can develop into a solid #2 and we hope Pryor can be closer to a #1, we might have something.

 

the whole offense was driven by Reed thought as he opened up Crowder's lanes.   If Reed stays healthy and Pryor can stretch the field with solid possession play from Josh/Mo, Crowder should shine again.

 

And i think Thompson is an added threat for wide pitches and screen plays.  Would love some wheel routes to him as well.

 

Good post.

[JPG]

I think it depends on way too many things at this poiny especially since we haven't draffed yet and there are some weapons still on the market. 

 

As of right now no. Another rb and vet wr would make me feel better.

[nkoucheki]

3 minutes ago, RabidFan said:

Ok I'll bite. 

 

Reed and Davis are passing game weapons,  Paul, if stays and healthy can be as well.  Remember his crossing patterns that were big gains a few years back...got in touch with his former WR game.  Don't expect much but he can catch and run if used on special occasions.

 

Pryor is a beach and if keeps up what he started could command some double teams which would open the slot.

 

The key is to try and keep Crowder in the slot where he is a giant mismatch.  So if Doctson/Harris can develop into a solid #2 and we hope Pryor can be closer to a #1, we might have something.

 

the whole offense was driven by Reed thought as he opened up Crowder's lanes.   If Reed stays healthy and Pryor can stretch the field with solid possession play from Josh/Mo, Crowder should shine again.

 

And i think Thompson is an added threat for wide pitches and screen plays.  Would love some wheel routes to him as well.

 

Good post.

 

Good stuff. I could NOT agree with you more about Crowder. The idea of him leaving the slot was a huge factor in me asking the question. He needs to be there

[Warhead36]

The key is Doctson. If he really is an elite #1 WR, then this team will be dangerous again in the pass game, possibly even better then last year. Pryor is better then Garcon, and possibly better then Jackson(maybe not the pure deep threat but more consistent). Crowder will only be better in year 3(personally I'm very high on him and think he could be a legit #1 WR ala Antonio Brown but maybe not quite that good). Reed is the best pass catching TE in the league south of New England and Davis is a damn good #2.

[PigskinRedskin]

Like both @Warhead36 and @RabidFan put, I think we're in a good spot to be honest. 

Pryor had a great year in Cleveland with a rotation of QB's and gave Norman fits. Crowder came on strong and like mentioned previously, if Doctson can come on looking like his college-self, not only will Doctson be a threat, Crowder will see some open field. 

Our tight ends are legit and as long as Reed stays healthy, he's one of the best in the league and Davis played well when called upon. I kind of wished we looked at him a little more last season. He seems to love playing here for us and could be a good 3rd down option like Garcon was.

And one things I don't think we use nearly enough, like RabidFan said, Thompson is a legit screen RB that can make people miss and pick us up some yards, plus he can block in the backfield which is important.

[Wildbunny]

I wouldn't say that Pryor is better than Garcon. Not now. He has potential to be, but that also means he's not there yet.

Doctson is a huge question mark to me so far, so the Pryor/Doctson tandem is as well. Huge upside, but that still have to develop.

Crowder, just love the guy. Garcon's toughness and fighting skills with a Kenny Baker body.

Grant, Harris? Harris has shown flashes and should get more snaps, Grant is a candidate for being cut this year.

So we're a bit short, and I'm also not sure what those guys (Doctson and Pryor) are really worth at blocking, because Garcon was freaking good at it.

 

Our TE situation is more troublesome to me. I know everyone's fond of Reed, and the guy is amazing when on the field. But he's rarely on. The last two years I would even say that our TE group has spend more time on IR and nursing injuring than playing football. Which is a concern. Niles Paul is supposedly a beast, but he's been injured those last two years, just like Junior. Davis was good, but he's also closer to retiring than another all pro season. Can he do it again or will time catch him? I wouldn't mind bringing in another TE, a more reliable one, someone that can also block and catch, because our TEs sucks at blocking.

 

RB are a mess. I've lost faith on Matt Jones, and I wouldn't be surprised to see him rotting on the bench this year as well. Kelley is suitable, Brown as well, but they aren't world beaters either. So we need help, and I think McCaffrey could suits Jay's Offense quite well. Thompson is still reliable, but overall this unit lacks someone that could lead the charge.

 

So no, right now, I don't see our playmaking abilities on O as really astounding, it's interesting, but we need to add someone early in the draft, be it a TE or a RB, because we need to find a replacment for Reed that may hit CEI each time he steps on the field, and a RB because we have none.

[NoCalMike]

Doctson is the X-factor.   People forget that he was drafted as a preeminent move because the front office realized Jackson & Garcon were both free agents coming up and there was a good chance one or both would be gone.  Doctson was drafted specifically to replace that soon-to-be need.  It's a shame his rookie season was a wash due to injury.

 

Reed

Crowder

Davis

Doctson

Pryor

Niles Paul

 

Robert Kelley

Chris Thompson

 

Do I think the team has enough weapons? Yes I do. but 2016 shows that having a lot of weapons on offense isn't the be all end of all of making an offense work.  More points will be needed.

 

Also.........(defense) 

[Warhead36]

27 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

I wouldn't say that Pryor is better than Garcon. Not now. He has potential to be, but that also means he's not there yet.

Doctson is a huge question mark to me so far, so the Pryor/Doctson tandem is as well. Huge upside, but that still have to develop.

Crowder, just love the guy. Garcon's toughness and fighting skills with a Kenny Baker body.

Grant, Harris? Harris has shown flashes and should get more snaps, Grant is a candidate for being cut this year.

So we're a bit short, and I'm also not sure what those guys (Doctson and Pryor) are really worth at blocking, because Garcon was freaking good at it.

 

Our TE situation is more troublesome to me. I know everyone's fond of Reed, and the guy is amazing when on the field. But he's rarely on. The last two years I would even say that our TE group has spend more time on IR and nursing injuring than playing football. Which is a concern. Niles Paul is supposedly a beast, but he's been injured those last two years, just like Junior. Davis was good, but he's also closer to retiring than another all pro season. Can he do it again or will time catch him? I wouldn't mind bringing in another TE, a more reliable one, someone that can also block and catch, because our TEs sucks at blocking.

 

RB are a mess. I've lost faith on Matt Jones, and I wouldn't be surprised to see him rotting on the bench this year as well. Kelley is suitable, Brown as well, but they aren't world beaters either. So we need help, and I think McCaffrey could suits Jay's Offense quite well. Thompson is still reliable, but overall this unit lacks someone that could lead the charge.

 

So no, right now, I don't see our playmaking abilities on O as really astounding, it's interesting, but we need to add someone early in the draft, be it a TE or a RB, because we need to find a replacment for Reed that may hit CEI each time he steps on the field, and a RB because we have none.

Garcon only had about 40 more yards than Pryor last year, but Pryor had a list of trash at QB throwing to him. I think right now Pryor is the better WR and that will show now that he's got a better QB while Garcon will have a nobody in San Fran. Pryor is also younger with way more upside.

 

To say our TEs are "rarely" on is a little bit exageration, no? Reed missed four games last year and two the year before. Its a concern, but to say he's only in the lineup rarely is pushing it. Davis doesn't need to be an all pro. He's a #2 TE who is good enough to be the #1 on quite a few teams.

 

I do agree our RBs aren't world beaters but I do like Kelley, I think he's a respectable starter. Thompson is one of the best if not the best 3rd down/pass catching backs in the league. There is still a chance we could draft a Cook or McCaffery and then our offense could REALLY take off.

[Wildbunny]

26 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Garcon only had about 40 more yards than Pryor last year, but Pryor had a list of trash at QB throwing to him. I think right now Pryor is the better WR and that will show now that he's got a better QB while Garcon will have a nobody in San Fran. Pryor is also younger with way more upside.

 

We can also look at it this way:

Redskins Pass catching guys in 2016:

WR:

Pierre Garcon

DeSean Jackson

Jamison Crowder

Maurice Harris

Ryan Grant

Rashad Ross

Josh Doctson

TE:

Jordan Reed

Niles Paul

Vernon Davis

Derek Carrier

RB:

Matt Jones

Chris Thompson

Robert Kelley

Mack Brown

 

Cleveland Browns pass catching guys in 2016:

WR:

Terrell Pryor Sr.

Ricardo Louis

Andrew Hawkins

Corey Coleman

Jordan Payton

Rashard Higgins

Mario Alford

TE:

Gary Barnidge

Seth Devalve

Connor Hamlett

Randall Telfer

RB:

Isaiah Crowell

Duke Johnson

Dan Vitale

Malcolm Johnson

George Atkinson

 

Honestly, that list of guys outside of Pryor, and maybe Barnidge is quite depressing. Sure he had some crappy guy throwing the ball, but they also had didn't add much choice to go to.

Pryor is 140 targets for 77 receptions. Garcon is 114 for 79.

 

And I'm not even discussing the fact that the Browns had a way better running game than us.

[RedBeast]

I heard Bruce decided that he was going to play nose tackle this year... he just needs to bulk up a little bit so he's doubled down on his Coors Light consumption. 

[Renegade7]

Yes, because our offense gets people open, and we should have at least three legit redzone threats (Doctson, Pryor, and Reed).  Crowder is a legit slot threat, and Cousins will at least be here next year.  We may finally get those missing redzone TDs.

[TheGreatBuzz]

I'd like to see a little more but I think our offense as it sits could score a lot of points.  I feel pretty good about it.  The problem we have is can the defense keep the other team from scoring more points?  That's where I'm scared currently.  

 

But who really knows?  That's why we still play the games.

[Bonez3]

This offense, especially Cousins, is top 10 in the league. Every second that passes that we don't lock KC to LTD raises his price and loses cap %. He will not tail off, production wise, over the next 3 years in this system. So, waiting for the other shoe to fall on him is lousy approach. He should be locked up by 7/15. Anything else will be terrible decision by this franchises FO. Basically, he will ride the growing market each year and the price will rise. 

 

The FO should look at the Oline market for escalating cost valuations

[Cliffmark1]

With kirk 8-8 or 6-10. Without kirk 3-13 or so. 

[Tsailand]

We only have two starting WRs.  We need a third.  He doesn't have to be a #1 guy or even a #2 guy but he has to be a legit starter.

 

Calling Doctson a starter is wishful thinking that sets the offense up for failure in 2017.

 

He and the rest of the guys are backups at best, until they prove otherwise.

[Bang]

Yes, so long as cousins is running the offense, we have weapons. 
Pryor offers us something we've yet to have, a true big man threat with speed and get-deep ability.

Reed is outstanding so long as he's healthy, Crowder is a dynamic player that can open up a wide variety of options to the entire offense.

A lot rides on Doctson, IMO. He has to play and play well. But so long as he can stay on the field and runs the routes right, Cousins will get him the ball.

 

we could still stand to upgrade the RB position..  it seems as if Matt Jones is going to get another shot , and Fat Rob is nice ,but i am not so sure he's the threat that can grind out a game. i hold no real hope for this, because gruden's RB here and in cincy has been the same pattern,, a guy like Rob to run occasionally, but it's Thompson and the pass catching scatback RB that Gruden really likes to utilize. We're never going to see the old school ground and pound run game out of Gruden, it's just not his offense. That said, i'd like to see some more backs brought in to compete. i don't think we need an aging superstar ala AP, i don't think we should take one in the first round. But beyond that, all things should be considered.

 

the defense looks t be getting shorn up a bit with the signings of Sweringer and the two DTs. Bennie Logan would have been a VERY nice land, but, this draft is loaded with interior linemen and linebackers. If we choose to not sign any more free agent DTs (there are still plenty floating around.) there should be some very good prospects available at 17 and  into the 2nd round.

 

I like the progress of the TEAM, with all the front office drama not withstanding, and overall provided we get Cousins under long term contract.  even if he doesn't, we have enough weapons to be competitive next year, provided the defense lets the offense get on the field. (preferably a short one)

 

~Bang

 

 

[Morneblade]

Offensively? Yes. Outside of a couple issues with the OL, the skill positions are in pretty good shape. WR looks good, QB is quite good, TE's are good, RB's are pretty decent.

 

Defense is a whole other ball of wax. And it still sucks. ILB is still a joke. Collectively we are worse on the DL. than we were. Safetly looks to be improved, but sorry, that doesn't mean much when your front 7 sucks. And, it sucks.

[Voice_of_Reason]

We need somebody else to threaten the outside because right now, most of the weapons work inside, minus Pryor.  

 

Crowder, Vernon and Reed all work best inside.  The run game also generally starts inside. Without outside threats, defenses will just crowd the middle of the field and minimize a bunch of threats all at once.  

 

Pryor helps.  Doctson, if he plays, would help.  

 

But my biggest fear is GrudAllen think Grant could be that other outside guy.  They'll find out quickly he can't be, but I hope they don't have to find that out. 

 

[Morneblade]

Just now, Voice_of_Reason said:

We need somebody else to threaten the outside because right now, most of the weapons work inside, minus Pryor.  

 

Crowder, Vernon and Reed all work best inside.  The run game also generally starts inside. Without outside threats, defenses will just crowd the middle of the field and minimize a bunch of threats all at once.  

 

Pryor helps.  Doctson, if he plays, would help.  

 

But my biggest fear is GrudAllen think Grant could be that other outside guy.  They'll find out quickly he can't be, but I hope they don't have to find that out. 

 

 

Grant is terrible. Harris already looks like a better WR. I think Pryor is a real threat. His size/speed combination is something we do not see everyday. And if Doctson is healthy, he creates issues as well on the outside.

[Cliffmark1]

I think Pryor was brought in as KC replacement. We may use him as a wr but I bet danny puts him under center for at least a few snaps and maybe a few seasons. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

2 minutes ago, Cliffmark1 said:

I think Pryor was brought in as KC replacement. We may use him as a wr but I bet danny puts him under center for at least a few snaps and maybe a few seasons. 

Maybe a wildcat or two but you really think Pryor is coming in to eventually be the starting QB?  

[TheShredder]

5 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

The key is Doctson. If he really is an elite #1 WR, then this team will be dangerous again in the pass game, possibly even better then last year. Pryor is better then Garcon, and possibly better then Jackson(maybe not the pure deep threat but more consistent). Crowder will only be better in year 3(personally I'm very high on him and think he could be a legit #1 WR ala Antonio Brown but maybe not quite that good). Reed is the best pass catching TE in the league south of New England and Davis is a damn good #2.

The key is DEFENSE.

 

Basically going into the season (as it stands right now) with similar personnel.  No real upgrades except possibly at Safety.  Huge holes in the largest problem in each game...stopping the run.  Teams that run, control the clock, and run out the second half.  Can't see where they've dealt with stopping the run.  It's not going to matter if they accumulate a ton of yards between the 20's again.  If they don't have drastic improvement in the redzone and options on defense for stopping the running game, they've simply ignored the obvious and don't care about winning now.

[Morneblade]

2 minutes ago, Cliffmark1 said:

I think Pryor was brought in as KC replacement. We may use him as a wr but I bet danny puts him under center for at least a few snaps and maybe a few seasons. 

 

We know. You've already mentioned that over half a dozen times. Try a different shtick.

 

[bowhunter]

3 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

Grant is terrible. Harris already looks like a better WR. I think Pryor is a real threat. His size/speed combination is something we do not see everyday. And if Doctson is healthy, he creates issues as well on the outside.

Jackson ran a 4.35 at his NFL combine

Pryor ran a 4.39!  Yet is 6" taller. If he ever gets his whole game going you are correct in him becoming a real threat.