2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

[samy316]

11 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Not sure how you’d deduce that from his post. Confidence needs to be communicated differently in different situations. I love quiet confidence and boisterous confidence. All depends on where.

 

And Deion is obviously doing something right.

 

Deion came in, and turned over more than 80% of the Colorado roster, and did all of this with a program that won just one game a year ago, and hasn't been relevant in the past 20-25 years.  They were also a 21pt underdog last weekend.  I think Deion proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he can coach, and recruit.  Colorado will be a school that high quality recruits will flock to in the coming seasons.  Lots of students entering the transfer portal will consider Colorado as a destination in the coming years.  Sanders is a brand name that can attract talent and have his players compete at a high level.  Ron Rivera wishes that he were half the coach and recruiter that Deion Sanders is.

Edited September 6, 2023 by samy316

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If I went with a cup half full take of this season it would center on Dan being gone and the fan base being back.

 

I've been to plenty of road games and plenty of home games over the years.  And I get it why Josh Norman among others have said they'd rather play on the road because of the fans -- our fans are really enthusiastic on the road and travel well but at home its been a disaster.

I think that’s a good choice.  I’m pretty pumped to see the stadium rocking (as much as FedEx can rock, lol).  And the ownership change - it’s just an unbelievable change in future fortunes.

 

For me, specific to this season, it’s EB and Howell.  EB giving us modern football, and Howell offering the hope of becoming a franchise quarterback.  Bigger picture though, I’m right there with you.

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, samy316 said:

 

Deion came in, and turned over more than 80% of the Colorado roster, and did all of this with a program that won just one game a year ago, and hasn't been relevant in the past 20-25 years.  They were also a 21pt underdog last weekend.  I think Deion proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he can coach, and recruit.  Colorado will be a school that high quality recruits will flock to in the coming seasons.  Lots of students entering the transfer portal will consider Colorado as a destination in the coming years.  Sanders is a brand name that can attract talent and have his players compete at a high level.  Ron Rivera wishes that he were half the coach and recruiter that Deion Sanders is.

 

Yup. Rallying against Deion Sanders (we'll see what kind of season they have, but it looks good to start) in a support for Ron Rivera seems like the kind of comparison I'd avoid.

 

Deion is turning chicken **** into chicken salad. And a premium salad with organic raised chickens, homemade mayo and gold shavings. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, skinny21 said:

I think that’s a good choice.  I’m pretty pumped to see the stadium rocking (as much as FedEx can rock, lol).  And the ownership change - it’s just an unbelievable change in future fortunes.

 

For me, specific to this season, it’s EB and Howell.  EB giving us modern football, and Howell offering the hope of becoming a franchise quarterback.  Bigger picture though, I’m right there with you.

 

If I ran with optimism.

 

 

 

And again I half agree with @Voice_of_Reason's point to me which is his pick of 10-7 isnt a mile off of my 8-9 -- its mostly based on him thinking the answered questions are more likely to end up positve than negative compared to me. 

 

Personally I don't have a strong positive or negative take on the unanswered questions.  My hard core view of it is I think it splits down the middle.  Hence I am going 500.  Part of that is past experience with me predicting that the unanswered questions would mostly turn in our favor -- I am typically wrong on that.   But I do agree its a crap shoot.

 

As I've said in other posts can peak Derek Carr, Kirk Cousins QB play overcome bad O line play?  Yes.  So if Howell plays to that standard, I think they can win even if the O line isn't good.  But I don't want to put that kind of pressure on Howell.  But if he kills it from the jump, I do think 10-7 could happen.

 

If the O line plays better than most of us think it will -- IMO it would happen mainly for this reason. Charles and Cosmi develop at guard and also stay healthy.

 

And I do think the Dan is gone, we got our team back vibe is a real X factor.  And I also like Bieiniemy.

 

My floor prediction has been 7-10.  Ceiling 10-7.  Prediction 8-9.  But anything in that 7-10-10-7 range wouldn't surprise me.  I'd be shocked if they won more than 10 games and I'd be equally shocked if they lost more than 10. 

 

My frustration with Ron on all of this isn't that I think he's done a bad job.  But he did an incomplete job.  If they didn't have these questions on the O line -- I'd be at 9 games as the floor and 12 as the ceiling.  IMHO he squandered the opportunity for a big swing up.  

Edited September 6, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[samy316]

18 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Yup. Rallying against Deion Sanders (we'll see what kind of season they have, but it looks good to start) in a support for Ron Rivera seems like the kind of comparison I'd avoid.

 

Deion is turning chicken **** into chicken salad. And a premium salad with organic raised chickens, homemade mayo and gold shavings. 

 

I think if Colorado wins 8-9 games, they'll be sitting pretty going forward.  Remember, they're going to the Big 12 next season, where Texas & Oklahoma won't be around to be a roadblock for them.  Colorado with a few more recruits & transfers can easily jump to #1 in that conference, and qualify for a possible playoff spot.  Colorado's future looks bright.  If Coach Prime catapults Colorado to contention and playoff berths, he will go down as an all time sports figure in my opinion.  Coach Prime is literally the anti-Ron Rivera, in which he can enter a program with no prospects and hopes, and turn them into a major player.  Rivera is just a mediocre coach, who was lucky enough to have Cam Newton in his prime carry him to a 15-1 season with a SB apperance.  There's no comparison between the two.  If Cam Newton didn't exist, Rivera wouldn't be a head coach today.  He would've been fired from Carolina, and been a Linebackers coach or at best a D-Coordinator somewhere.

Edited September 6, 2023 by samy316

[FootballZombie]

All this talk about Deion and Colorado when we all know in our heart of hearts that its the divine inspired speeches asking you what mode of transportation you arrived in that really gives you the tingling sensation in the jimmies.

 

All other forms of bravado, swagger and inspiration are hereby deemed obsolete.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

What about making a 'W' with your fingers and pretending to eat it as you try and choke yourself? Is that inspiring enough? Yay or nay?

[Skinsinparadise]

The Commanders are living by one mantra in Week 1: Start fast

 

 

Listen. The Washington Commanders sound like a skipping record.

“We're trying to start fast this year,” defensive tackle Daron Payne said.

 

 

 

“We got to emphasize starting fast,” safety Kam Curl said.

In its Week 1 press release, above a stat for wide receiver Terry McLaurin, the team’s public relations staff wrote: “Starting fast.”

 

“Start the season fast, start series fast, start the games fast,” defensive coordinator Jack Del Rio said. “That's the number one emphasis.”

Starting fast will be important for plenty of people as a new era dawns Sunday at the Commanders’ season opener against the Arizona Cardinals. The new ownership group wants to prove it can provide a good game-day experience at decaying FedEx Field. (It has already poured $40 million into the stadium.) The fans want to prove they’re re-energized after two decades of lethargy. (The game is already sold out.) Many coaches and players want to prove, definitively, that they can excel in big new roles. (Several created optimism with strong preseason performances.)

Five preposterously positive Washington Commanders predictions for 2023

But the stakes might be highest for Coach Ron Rivera. He figures to have the least time and leeway to prove he is the right person for his job. This offseason, he has regularly acknowledged that, if things don’t go well, managing partner Josh Harris could fire him, and at 61, he may not end up with another head coaching job. Rivera’s teams tend to start slow — his first three seasons here began 2-7, 2-6 and 1-4 — so he must get this team to do what no Rivera team in Washington has ever done: start fast.

 

 

By NFL standards, the Cardinals look as close as it gets to an easy victory. Arizona is expected to be the worst team in the league by a fair margin. The new general manager is tearing down the roster, the new coach is being mocked online for a cringeworthy speech, and the team is without star quarterback Kyler Murray (ACL) and refusing to name a replacement because of competitive advantage. The choices are journeyman Josh Dobbs (two career starts), whom the Cardinals traded for Aug. 24, and Clayton Tune (a rookie fifth-round draft pick).

Washington is favored by a touchdown or more for the first time in Rivera’s 51 games, according to TruMedia. Inpredictable, a sports-betting analysis website, has the spread at 8½ points. During his career, Rivera has been a coin flip in Week 1 (6-6 all time) but good as a heavy favorite. In Carolina, when favored by seven-plus points, he went 14-2.

Despite all the factors favoring Washington, despite the immense personal stakes, Rivera claimed this opener feels like any other.=

 

“It’s always important,” he said. “One of the things that John Madden told me is: ‘You win the first one, you’re always in the plus. If you lose the first one, you’re behind.’ ”

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2023/09/05/commanders-slow-starts-rivera/

[skinny21]

11 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If I ran with optimism.

 

 

 

And again I half agree with @Voice_of_Reason's point to me which is his pick of 10-7 isnt a mile off of my 8-9 -- its mostly based on him thinking the answered questions are more likely to end up positve than negative compared to me. 

 

Personally I don't have a strong positive or negative take on the unanswered questions.  My hard core view of it is I think it splits down the middle.  Hence I am going 500.  Part of that is past experience with me predicting that the unanswered questions would mostly turn in our favor -- I am typically wrong on that.   But I do agree its a crap shoot.

 

As I've said in other posts can peak Derek Carr, Kirk Cousins QB play overcome bad O line play?  Yes.  So if Howell plays to that standard, I think they can win even if the O line isn't good.  But I don't want to put that kind of pressure on Howell.  But if he kills it from the jump, I do think 10-7 could happen.

 

If the O line plays better than most of us think it will -- IMO it would happen mainly for this reason. Charles and Cosmi develop at guard and also stay healthy.

 

And I do think the Dan is gone, we got our team back vibe is a real X factor.  And I also like Bieiniemy.

 

My floor prediction has been 7-10.  Ceiling 10-7.  Prediction 8-9.  But anything in that 7-10-10-7 range wouldn't surprise me.  I'd be shocked if they won more than 10 games and I'd be equally shocked if they lost more than 7. 

 

My frustration with Ron on all of this isn't that I think he's done a bad job.  But he did an incomplete job.  If they didn't have these questions on the O line -- I'd be at 9 games as the floor and 12 as the ceiling.  IMHO he squandered the opportunity for a big swing up.  

I’m basically right there with you.

 

I feel like if more had been done on the oline, Howell (and EB) would have a better chance of success, and if this was their 2nd year together, they’d have a better chance at overcoming the oline deficiencies.

 

I cut Ron a little slack on not “finishing” the team as I don’t think he really knew what he had in Howell/EB.  And I think EB vouched for Wylie to some extent, and that might have had a detrimental effect.  On the flip side, as you pointed out regarding the Texans, giving your young qb protection should have been a clear priority.  I’m a fan of Forbes, but I feel like if we’d landed Wright, Harrison or better FA tackle, I’d be a touch more optimistic about our record.  And also to your point (and probably the more important point), I think more could have been done prior to this year.  I might argue about certain situations/decisions, but I also have to admit that there were missed chances.

 

 

I run against the grain about this year and Ron’s future.  I don’t care too much about Ron the HC… my concern is about how moving on from Ron affects EB and Howell.  I have high hopes for Howell, and a 2nd HC and 3rd OC in three years goes against the franchise support @Going Commando always mentions.

I do give RR some credit for bringing in EB and JDR and (somewhat ironically given it seems like a must-win year for him) for resisting some of the expected temptations extant in a coach having personnel control.  Essentially, I wouldn’t tie Ron’s future to a certain number of wins, or a playoff victory.  To me, it comes down to - does the team look like they’re close.  Do they hang with the top teams, and does Howell (and EB) look like the real deal.  If so, I’d be content giving Ron one more year to solidify the oline (and add other pieces, re-sign Curl and possibly one of our DEs, etc).  And part of that is because its a fickle league - a few unlucky bounces, injuries, ref decisions, matchups, etc and a promising team could falter.  I’m reasonably certain it doesn’t play out that way of course - it’s almost certainly win or he’s out, and I can understand it given the ownership change, energized fan base, the FO structure, Ron’s record to date, etc.

 

I do get why people are done with him.  I might think some of the “hate” is over the top (not from you, but there are some that are quite disdainful)… but the qb carousel, the oline weakness, the foot in the mouth stuff and so on… I get it.  And if I take the long view, I’m ok with moving on from Ron.  The future’s bright regardless of Ron and/or Jack/EB are gone, or even if Howell doesn’t pan out.

[RandyHolt]

Its about time to shut er down when we are talking about Deion ****ing Sanders. Are you ready for a Monday night par-tay.

 

Maybe we can have a general catchall regular season thread now that the season is upon is and then folks won't get bent when their ignorable new thread is ignored.

[Skinsinparadise]

30 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I’m basically right there with you.

 

I feel like if more had been done on the oline, Howell (and EB) would have a better chance of success, and if this was their 2nd year together, they’d have a better chance at overcoming the oline deficiencies.

 

 

Agree.  And I give Ron a hard time on this because there always seem to be a major hole that can sink ther ship.  In the first three years I let that go because you can't build Rome in a day.  But in my mind to double down on it in year 4 infuriated me.

 

30 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

 

I cut Ron a little slack on not “finishing” the team as I don’t think he really knew what he had in Howell/EB.  And I think EB vouched for Wylie to some extent, and that might have had a detrimental effect.  On the flip side, as you pointed out regarding the Texans, giving your young qb protection should have been a clear priority.  I’m a fan of Forbes, but I feel like if we’d landed Wright, Harrison or better FA tackle, I’d be a touch more optimistic about our record.  And also to your point (and probably the more important point), I think more could have been done prior to this year.  I might argue about certain situations/decisions, but I also have to admit that there were missed chances.

 

 

Yeah for me I'd summarize it that ron is willing to roll the dice on the O line.  He failed at it last year.  Warren Sharp actually argues that the bad O line started to manifest to him 2 years ago by looking at certain metrics.

 

And look I am not being presumptous that he is wrong and am right about this configuration.  That remains to be seen.  But if I am right, he's not forgiven with me.

 

As for him not knowing what he had in Howell and EB, maybe.  But in off season #4, with the new ownership in the fold you got to step on the gas IMO. 

 

30 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

To me, it comes down to - does the team look like they’re close.  Do they hang with the top teams, and does Howell (and EB) look like the real deal.  If so, I’d be content giving Ron one more year to solidify the oline (and add other pieces, re-sign Curl and possibly one of our DEs, etc).  And part of that is because its a fickle league - a few unlucky bounces, injuries, ref decisions, matchups, etc and a promising team could falter.  

 

Depends for me as to what version you have of they are close.  If its the same ride as Ron's last two years.  Streaky.  Some celebrated wins.  Some bad loses.  there is a juncture we feel like we are making the playoffs until all of a sudden they don't.   No chance that wins me over.  If its 10-7 or even 9-8 but with some injuries that derail the season -- then I'd still want him out of the FO but good as the HC.

 

I think for me ironically Ron's extolling the Bills when he got here brings home the point.  Ron more or less alluded to the Bills are better than this organization and someday he hopes this team would be like the Bills.  So for the Giants to hire the 2nd in command at Buffalo to run their FO and then on top of that hire the 2nd in command in Philly to work under him.  They hire the Bills offensive coordinator as HC who in turn gets lauded for hiring the best of the best that he can find for assistant coaches, almost all of whom he didn't previously know.

 

So the Giants in one year accomplished what Ron didn't in 3.   Even Ron's own employee, Logan Paulsen, thinks the Giants outcoached him in the matchups last season. Whether it translates or not, the Giants at least perception wise killed this last draft and killed it with the Waller trade and addressed their weaknesses in one fell swoop of an off season.  And the kicker is the national media sees that operation as bigger-better-faster than this one.  Which lol I am sure drives Ron nuts.

 

Ron late to the party hiring a coach he didn't know with pedigree.  Yeah Del Rio is another but from what I read Del Rio reached out to Ron in that period after he was let go and they built a relationship.   But otherwise Ron liked to hire coaches he was familar with.  He brought Hurney to the FO.    He has a play medium approach in a division with type A hard charging aggressive GMs (McClay being the defacto GM in Dallas) with major predigree.

 

So for me if this team finishes 4th.  No way, zero, I want Ron back.  Not because he sucks.  But because he's a C plus, B minus student competing against A level students.  So it will comfirm what most suspect, including people that have known Ron for years and like him -- that the other GMs-FOs in this division are out of Ron's league.  

Edited September 6, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

Not sure how you’d deduce that from his post. Confidence needs to be communicated differently in different situations. I love quiet confidence and boisterous confidence. All depends on where.

 

And Deion is obviously doing something right.

Recruiting is a huge part of what he’s doing right. But it’s still a considerable coaching achievement to take a completely new roster and put out what they did last week was a heck of a coaching job.

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, MartinC said:

Recruiting is a huge part of what he’s doing right. But it’s still a considerable coaching achievement to take a completely new roster and put out what they did last week was a heck of a coaching job.

He does well with recruiting because he is boisterous. It all comes around and back again. If/then scenarios and statements.

 

Deion knows what he's doing. 

 

I still don't understand why bringing him up in this conversation aided the point that Rivera's confidence is where we need to be and Deion's is bad (as it was framed).

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If I ran with optimism.

 

 

 

And again I half agree with @Voice_of_Reason's point to me which is his pick of 10-7 isnt a mile off of my 8-9 -- its mostly based on him thinking the answered questions are more likely to end up positve than negative compared to me. 

 

Personally I don't have a strong positive or negative take on the unanswered questions.  My hard core view of it is I think it splits down the middle.  Hence I am going 500.  Part of that is past experience with me predicting that the unanswered questions would mostly turn in our favor -- I am typically wrong on that.   But I do agree its a crap shoot.

 

As I've said in other posts can peak Derek Carr, Kirk Cousins QB play overcome bad O line play?  Yes.  So if Howell plays to that standard, I think they can win even if the O line isn't good.  But I don't want to put that kind of pressure on Howell.  But if he kills it from the jump, I do think 10-7 could happen.

 

If the O line plays better than most of us think it will -- IMO it would happen mainly for this reason. Charles and Cosmi develop at guard and also stay healthy.

 

And I do think the Dan is gone, we got our team back vibe is a real X factor.  And I also like Bieiniemy.

 

My floor prediction has been 7-10.  Ceiling 10-7.  Prediction 8-9.  But anything in that 7-10-10-7 range wouldn't surprise me.  I'd be shocked if they won more than 10 games and I'd be equally shocked if they lost more than 7. 

 

My frustration with Ron on all of this isn't that I think he's done a bad job.  But he did an incomplete job.  If they didn't have these questions on the O line -- I'd be at 9 games as the floor and 12 as the ceiling.  IMHO he squandered the opportunity for a big swing up.  

I agree with just about everything in this post.  I have a quibble.  But honestly, I'll keep it to myself since quite frankly, I think there is a lot more we agree on than don't agree on.  

 

Thought the discourse is entertaining.

[Voice_of_Reason]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Wylie -- a lot of negativity on him.  lol, among other things I was listening to Doc and Lyndell who watched camp go on a recent radio segment, lets be honest, Wylie sucks.  But yeah overall its not been good.  Maybe the season is better for him than camp.  Aside of course from Logan who seems sold on everyone. 

"Wylie at Right Tackle, gotta see it.  Now, I think at worst, he can be what Cornelius Lucas was. But you kindof want better." - John Keim on Bram's show last Friday. That's at the 1:05 mark in the podcast.  

 

I have no idea if Wylie is good or bad. And Keim could be right or wrong.  But if he gives you what Lucas has given you, you can work with that.  I agree with Keim, you want better. If you're going to go out and sign a guy that is basically the same as the guy you have, why are you doing that?  I get the angst there, go get somebody better than the guy you already have. 

 

But if Lucas' level is the floor, that's workable for an above-average offensive line, assuming the other pieces can hold their own.  

 

I will say, of the entire team, the single worst performance for the entire preseason was Wylie in the Browns game.  At least for anybody who really matters.  He was abysmal.  If that's the level he's going to throw out there, he needs to be benched and they need to play Lucas, and they need to make that switch FAST.  

 

But if that was an aberration, and he's going to be "ok" then I think things will be ok.  

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

"Wylie at Right Tackle, gotta see it.  Now, I think at worst, he can be what Cornelius Lucas was. But you kindof want better." - John Keim on Bram's show last Friday. That's at the 1:05 mark in the podcast.  

 

I have no idea if Wylie is good or bad. And Keim could be right or wrong.  But if he gives you what Lucas has given you, you can work with that.  I agree with Keim, you want better. If you're going to go out and sign a guy that is basically the same as the guy you have, why are you doing that?  I get the angst there, go get somebody better than the guy you already have. 

 

But if Lucas' level is the floor, that's workable for an above-average offensive line, assuming the other pieces can hold their own.  

 

I will say, of the entire team, the single worst performance for the entire preseason was Wylie in the Browns game.  At least for anybody who really matters.  He was abysmal.  If that's the level he's going to throw out there, he needs to be benched and they need to play Lucas, and they need to make that switch FAST.  

 

But if that was an aberration, and he's going to be "ok" then I think things will be ok.  

 

As I've mentioned before the reporters are all over the place depending on the podcast including even Keim not that those comments come off complementary.

 

On the aggregate if i am trying to be fair as to showcasing optimism and pessimism without any bias either way.

 

The optimism on the O line centers on Charles

The pessimism centers on Wylie -- and yes plenty has been said that he could be bad.

 

There is a glass half full vibe about Charles that's hard to miss as camp has marched on and a growing glass half empty vibe about Wylie.  the glass half empty vibe isn't yeah he's not great but he will be good enough -- that take I'd see as positive.  Instead, there are enough takes of he mighy be a below average player that's hard to miss.  Not every podcast-radio interview, all the time, but its filtered out there enough.

 

Now they can all be wrong but that's a seperate discussion.  I guess will see starting in week 2.  In week 1, I think you and I can play LT and LG and protect Howell against that D.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[757SeanTaylor21]

Welcome back Mr. Crowder to the PS

[RVAskins]

3 hours ago, KDawg said:

Deion is turning chicken **** into chicken salad. And a premium salad with organic raised chickens, homemade mayo and gold shavings. 

 

Yea but he'll always be a Cowboy and a money grabber who played like crap for us. I'll never be a fan of his.

[HigSkin]

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HigSkin]

 

Edited September 6, 2023 by HigSkin

[WFT4Ever]

All three in pads!? Hail Yeah! 
 

Going to win 107-0 this weekend. 

[HigSkin]

This picture is hilarious - Harris looks like a midget next to Magic.

 

 

 

 

 

[KDawg]

The Magic thing is a pretty fun little twist to his life story, too.

 

Jack Kent Cooke owned the Lakers leading into the Magic Johnson draft. His staff (not sure about JKC himself) that was in place didn’t want to draft Magic. 
 

Jerry Bus bought the team and Jerry West still didn’t want Magic. West resigned and they hired a guy who wanted Magic on the team and the owner got his wish and drafted Magic.

 

JKC passed and the Redskins changed hands to Snyder. And now Snyder is gone and Magic owns the team that JKC (a guy who’s staff didn’t want him) once owned.

 

Full circle. (I purposely left a lot of odd topic comments out of this, so let’s not add them in please).

52 minutes ago, RVAskins said:

 

Yea but he'll always be a Cowboy and a money grabber who played like crap for us. I'll never be a fan of his.

It’s okay to let go, man. To me, Deion was a Falcon. See? I hate the Cowboys, too.

[HigSkin]

 

[MartinC]

I wonder if Magic can play some TE. 🙂