2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

[oraphus]

I don't think Giants are overrated.. They are rightfully ranked 3rd in one of the currently top divisions in the NFL.. and could easily be first in some others.

The dummies on this board seems to hate on Jones as a below average QB but the guy just balls. No wrs, weak TEs, bad O line.. he always finds a way. The biggest knock on him was fumbles which is also the easiest to fix as we saw in 22. Plus he repeatedly dominates this team. Give me one great QB that was great without a true dominant #1 WR? With much better O weapons he can be very good. (see Josh Allen)

I remember mentioning last year that since the Giants new FO wasnt sold on Jones we should try to trade for him and many on here laughed saying he sucks.. not many are laughing now.

 

Now add a better D and an up and coming O line and Giants can easily finish ahead of Dallas in this division.

[Skinsinparadise]

25 minutes ago, samy316 said:

I’m not sure if that’s considered trolling.  We’re right in that 8-9 win range.  Would it surprise anyone if we did go 8-8-1 again?  What if we went 7-9-1?  It’s not that far fetched.  Sheehan isn’t a troll radio host.  You can say that about a lot of other radio hosts, but I don’t think Sheehan qualifies.  He might go a little overboard with his Shanahan takes, and his love for Kirk Cousins, but for the most part he’s pretty tame and levelheaded as far as radio hosts go.  Not too negative, and not too positive. 

 

Sheehan is good.  I can get frustrarted with him from time to time when he gets fixated on that he was right about this or that and he got sour towards the end of Dan's reign of terror about his fandom for this team. 

 

Having said that, if I had to pick a legend on air right now who covers this team on talk radio, he would be tops on that list for me. 

[Chris 44]

6 minutes ago, oraphus said:

I don't think Giants are overrated.. They are rightfully ranked 3rd in one of the currently top divisions in the NFL.. and could easily be first in some others.

The dummies on this board seems to hate on Jones as a below average QB but the guy just balls. No wrs, weak TEs, bad O line.. he always finds a way. The biggest knock on him was fumbles which is also the easiest to fix as we saw in 22. Plus he repeatedly dominates this team. Give me one great QB that was great without a true dominant #1 WR? With much better O weapons he can be very good. (see Josh Allen)

I remember mentioning last year that since the Giants new FO wasnt sold on Jones we should try to trade for him and many on here laughed saying he sucks.. not many are laughing now.

 

Now add a better D and an up and coming O line and Giants can easily finish ahead of Dallas in this division.

After the Washington game the Giants Dallas game on Sunday night is the one I am most interested in. Hard for me to judge which team is better at this point. I lean toward Jones continuing to trend upward while I still hold firm in my belief that Dak has seen his better days. Would not surprise if Dallas eyes one of the QB's coming out next year.

This game, though very early, may hold a lot of what's in store for the division for the rest of the year. Might be a very entertaining game all around.

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, oraphus said:

I don't think Giants are overrated.. They are rightfully ranked 3rd in one of the currently top divisions in the NFL.. and could easily be first in some others.

The dummies on this board seems to hate on Jones as a below average QB but the guy just balls. No wrs, weak TEs, bad O line.. he always finds a way. The biggest knock on him was fumbles which is also the easiest to fix as we saw in 22. Plus he repeatedly dominates this team. Give me one great QB that was great without a true dominant #1 WR? With much better O weapons he can be very good. (see Josh Allen)

I remember mentioning last year that since the Giants new FO wasnt sold on Jones we should try to trade for him and many on here laughed saying he sucks.. not many are laughing now.

 

Now add a better D and an up and coming O line and Giants can easily finish ahead of Dallas in this division.

 

The Giants to me aren't overrated either.  I do find they are similar to this team though in this way -- they got some major unanswered questions and both teams have the same weakness which is pass blocking.

 

So to me its a high variance team.  The Philly and Dallas path to win the division feels more predictable. 

 

But it gets my attention when Logan Paulsen is bold enough to tout their coaching staff over ours even though he works for the team.  And lol, Ron himself would beam when talking about that Buffalo FO and how he hopes to follow their path.  Yet, its the Giants who raided that FO not us.  And the Giants brass around the league is already much more well regarded than ours.

 

I suspect if the Giants have a good season -- Josh will pay attention to what they did.  They had a winning record in season 1.  Off season #2 they stepped on the gas.  And if that ends up working, that brass will get even more hype. 

 

 But IMO i am not 100% sold it works for them this season.  I am not saying it doesn't.  But if my point is this O line could derail this team, I need to be consistent and make that same point about them.  But I respect them more as to their work on that unit because at least they are swinging hard at trying to fix it.

[samy316]

34 minutes ago, oraphus said:

I don't think Giants are overrated.. They are rightfully ranked 3rd in one of the currently top divisions in the NFL.. and could easily be first in some others.

The dummies on this board seems to hate on Jones as a below average QB but the guy just balls. No wrs, weak TEs, bad O line.. he always finds a way. The biggest knock on him was fumbles which is also the easiest to fix as we saw in 22. Plus he repeatedly dominates this team. Give me one great QB that was great without a true dominant #1 WR? With much better O weapons he can be very good. (see Josh Allen)

I remember mentioning last year that since the Giants new FO wasnt sold on Jones we should try to trade for him and many on here laughed saying he sucks.. not many are laughing now.

 

Now add a better D and an up and coming O line and Giants can easily finish ahead of Dallas in this division.

Exactly.  I can’t comprehend how our fans can slam the Giants as overrated, when they’ve OWNED this team in recent years.  Daniel Jones has owned us since the day he was drafted, and that was BEFORE he got much better coach and new offensive weapons besides Saquon Barkley.  Until we beat the Giants w/ Daniel Jones consistently, we’ll be the fourth best team in the division going forward.  Philly and Dallas are already way above us in the pecking order.

[wit33]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Yeah that's why I listed Waller among their wildcards.  He's a rich man's Jordan Reed.  When he's on, he's even better than Jordan IMO.  But like Jordan he gets banged up a lot.  Hope our own Thomas isn't on that trek now where he's often on the shelf.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Your post started with sarcasm directed at my post, and yeah sarcasm is emotionally based.

Actually, there wasn't any sarcasm.  I said it was very good.   It's a really good OL.  There was no sarcasm, just a statement of fact.  The also scored 14 points with a very good OL.  Also a statement of fact. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Just now, Voice_of_Reason said:

Actually, there wasn't any sarcasm.  I said it was very good.   It's a really good OL.  There was no sarcasm, just a statement of fact.  The also scored 14 points with a very good OL.  Also a statement of fact. 

 

OK fair enough, came off to me like you were mocking the idea that they were good that day and hitting whether it matters.   But if that's not what you were doing.  Fair enough -- sorry for misinterperting your comments in that case. 

[wit33]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

OK fair enough, came off to me like you were mocking the idea that they were good that day and hitting whether it matters.   But if that's not what you were doing.  Fair enough -- sorry for misinterperting your comments in that case. 

Thoughts on Oline play having more or less importance depending on the head coaches philosophy relating to how to best win games?
 

Does a Lions smash mouth led approach maximize the value of their Oline? 
 

Does a EB led offense require same amount of Oline resources a Lions led offense? 

[Voice_of_Reason]

15 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

OK fair enough, came off to me like you were mocking the idea that they were good that day and hitting whether it matters.   But if that's not what you were doing.  Fair enough -- sorry for misinterperting your comments in that case. 

Nope.  They're legitimately good.

 

I was actually very disappointed in the offense as a whole because I think they got pretty good OL play, and they still couldn't really run the ball, and scored only 14 points.  Part of that, I think, is Goff.  I'm not sure what the rest is.  Lack of offensive skill position players?  Scheme? Dunno.  

 

But they should have had better output than what they had with the OL play they got.  

 

And yeah, I'd flip our OL for theirs in like .000003 seconds.  

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

 

Oh yeah you're right.  I was the one looking at the wrong number on the L drill.  I think I had Dalton Wagner's time in my mind instead.  But the 10 yard split number Kent Lee Platte used is much faster than the real number of 1.81, which is actually a little disappointing because it's slower than Nick Gates's 10 yard split.  Platte also uses a 20 yard split number that I don't see tracked anywhere else.  AFAIK, the 40 and 10 times are the only ones that are officially recorded and kept.

 

It spooked me because I wasn't the biggest fan of Ricky's college film and had kind of banked a lot of faith on that super high RAS.  But from the sounds of it, Stromberg showed really well in camp and he is on track to eventually be a starter.  So hopefully it doesn't really matter if Stromberg is slower than expected.

 

Yeah I noticed that Braeden Daniels comparison on Thuney's chart too.  They are each other's closest spider chart matches, with Joel Bitonio in there at #2.  Those are heartening comparisons.  There is no way Braeden will be as good as them as a rookie, he is just so much more raw than they were.  But if there is any chance he's got their upside, then we need to let things play out with him.  I don't think Braeden Daniels was somebody that they just kind of backed into after all of the options they liked better were gone.  I remember watching that war room video the team released about their draft picks.  In the moment when the Daniels pick came up, they seemed really intentional about picking him and that there was a strong pre-existing consensus to get him at that spot.  That suggested to me that they have a plan for him that they like.

 

A thing to note with Stromberg is a good age for a draft prospect, he was 22.46 years old on draft day, compared to John Michael Schmitz being 24.11 years old. IOL tend to be older, but Stromberg is the 3rd youngest Center in this class, and if we compared him to Guards he's also the 3rd youngest Guard. OT's are usually younger than IOL as teams are desperate for prospects with real OT size/length.

 

So here's the odd thing, the NFL combine says its a 10 yard split of 1.81, but most of the other sources I'm looking at including Dane Brugler say it's a 1.75. Brugler also has the slower agility drills for the Pro Day. So I'm not sure what to believe here.

 

Here's his RAS for a slower 10 yard but faster agility (also +4 pounds he weighed in at for the Pro Day):

Center

Guard

 

Still looks pretty good to me.

[Voice_of_Reason]

10 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Thoughts on Oline play having more or less importance depending on the head coaches philosophy relating to how to best win games?
 

Does a Lions smash mouth led approach maximize the value of their Oline? 
 

Does a EB led offense require same amount of Oline resources a Lions led offense? 

If you have a good OL, you should be able to do anything at any time, with a caveat: known passing situations are ALWAYS going to favor the defense, just maybe a little less, with a really good OL.

 

I think you NEED an exceptional run blocking OL in order to pull off a smash-mouth run-first approach. But in today's NFL, that ONLY works if you can complement it with big-plays off the passing game.  As Jaws said in 1995, and still holds true today, "points come out of the passing game."

 

The WCO was specifically designed by Walsh to minimize the impact of a bad OL.  So many of the concepts are intended to make the OL irrelevant: quick game, replace run with short pass, a lot of QB motion, etc.  That said, the better the OL, the less smoke and mirrors you need to use.  

 

Every so often, it's really nice to be able to line-em-up and beat the guy in front of you.

 

If you pair an outstanding OL with the WCO, you typically get SB type runs, assuming the QB isn't John Beck. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

Thoughts on Oline play having more or less importance depending on the head coaches philosophy relating to how to best win games?

 

I don't get the vibe that there are coaches who underplay O line holistically.  But there are some, like our own Mike Shanahan who valued nimble O lineman who are fast over O lineman who majored in pass protection.

 

There are some O lines which are good at pass blocking but not so much run blocking.  And good run blocking units who are poor at pass blocking.

 

This unit was bad at both last year.  Will see about this time.

 

I don't think Ron in a vaccum just doesn't believe that the O line is that important.  According to Keim drafting O line early was their intention, they even looked at trading up for one.  They offered Scherff a big contract, etc.

 

I do think Ron is willing to take more chances on the O line.  But overall I think the main reason why in my book he's struggled at it the last 2 years is just about mismanagement-competence.  I don't think he's generally incompetent.  But he's sort of B minus, C plus kind of guy, some good moves, some bad moves.  Just so happens the bad moves are more on the O line.

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

 

Does a Lions smash mouth led approach maximize the value of their Oline? 
 

Does a EB led offense require same amount of Oline resources a Lions led offense? 

 

 

I see the whole Bieiniemy can scheme around anything and WCO.  We are acting like the WCO and quick game is a novel ride.  While we've had a WCO for eons until Ron got here.  And yes we needed a good offensive line.  It helps in ANY scheme.  Many of today's NFL offenses have strong WCO components.   Our last three head coaches ran a variation of a WCO pre-Ron.  Now its back.

 

I am no expert on Ben Johnson but his calling card seems to be that he's a chameleon.  He's amorphous with the scheme depending on his opponent.   Sort of like the offense component of Belichick on defense where the opponent dictates the style.  They run plenty of power so it certainly helps them to have the horses who can implement it. 

 

The Lions offense was one of the best in the league—third in expected points added per play, fifth in total DVOA. It was top five in the league in points per drive, joining the Chiefs, Eagles, Bills, and Bengals—some of the best offensive teams in football last year. In one season under Johnson, the Lions produced more Pro Bowlers on offense (three) than they had in any season since 1971.

 

If you really wanted to, you could force some credit elsewhere, like sophomore season improvements for Amon-Ra St. Brown and Penei Sewell, or head coach Dan Campbell’s fourth-down aggressiveness, or a bounce-back season for veteran quarterback Jared Goff. But I know what I saw: Ben Johnson, this unknown football coach, is the one who pulled it all together.

 

I wanted to try to figure out how Johnson did it. Not just because nobody really saw it coming—but also because if he can coordinate a top offense again, the Lions will likely become a playoff team for only the fourth time in the 2000s. And if this is repeatable, then Johnson has the most valuable thing in current NFL coaching circles: the ability to win with a solid but unspectacular quarterback.

 

So: How did he do it last year? And can he do it again?

---

...Johnson is an unassuming figure, but he brings an intensity that makes him fit right in. He speaks clearly, emphatically, confidently, no “umms” or “ahhs.”

 

Johnson’s football DNA is a mix of schemes and philosophies, and maybe that’s why he was such an unknown when he embarked on his first season as a play caller last year. Many offensive coaches these days are, to continue Johnson’s metaphor, purebreds. Early in their careers, they become attached to a certain offensive system and never leave it; Johnson’s path wasn’t as linear—and you can tell he’s proud of that.

 

From 2012 to 2018, Johnson was a coach for the Miami Dolphins—and during those seven seasons, he primarily coached under three different offensive coordinators and play callers. First, Mike Sherman, a father of the West Coast offense. Then, Bill Lazor, one of the West Coast’s sons, with some Chip Kelly flair. Finally, Adam Gase, a Mike Martz disciple, who was also heavily influenced by his time coaching Peyton Manning in Denver.

 

 

...Three systems, three positions in seven years. This is the rearing of a coaching mutt, not a system purebred. Here, there was no methodical perfecting of one system, no sharpening of a blade by grinding away all but the finest edge. This was cross-pollination, the interweaving of schematic fabrics—the making of sturdier stuff.

 

...Johnson didn’t fix Goff by relying on the McVay stuff. He fixed Goff by enhancing it.

 

...“When [Goff] first got here, he would ask for more movement, more keepers,” Johnson said. “They’re the simplest plays, and the Rams made a lot of hay on that. But teams have caught up to matching those familiar patterns. So we’ve had to evolve a little bit.”

 

 

Johnson’s wrinkles are wackier than McVay’s—but this is still a familiar process, and are foundational to the system Goff grew up in.

 

 

...“We have some tackles that can do some unique things, and we try to highlight that,” Johnson said. “That’s part of who we are. Other teams might showcase their skill players a little bit more. We try to showcase our offensive line.”

 

Johnson puts his money where his mouth is on this topic. Veteran offensive tackle Taylor Decker told me that after the offense installs its run game every week, each offensive lineman gets handed the run sheet and is asked to circle his five favorite runs. Then they hand their sheet back to Johnson. Guess which runs get called on Sunday?

 

That diversity in the running game affected the passing game in ways Goff didn’t experience in L.A. “We have a myriad of protections that mirror things that we do in the running game,” passing game coordinator Tanner Engstrand said. By putting extra bodies in the box, designating plenty of pullers, and using tight bunch formations, the Lions can easily get a sixth (or seventh) blocker into the protection.

 

...Pre- and post-snap optionality are built into the Lions offense now. Goff can have upward of five play calls to choose from at the line when the Lions are in particular packages; Johnson tells me that some of his goofy designer plays won’t be initially called, but Goff can summon them once he sees how the defense lines up. An example? This splitback run the Lions used against the Eagles in Week 1, a play that Andy Reid cribbed from Johnson almost six months later in Super Bowl LVII.

 

...That coordination is seemingly the secret sauce of this Lions offense. Everyone is on the same page, the same paragraph, down to the same word. To execute such a great variety of runs, the offensive line has to be in perfect sync at the line. Do we trap with the guard against this front, or with the tackle? If the linebacker scrapes, who comes off the double? Now protections. If we pull a guard on this play-action, who does the rest of the line point to? Fold the receivers in. If that blitzer comes, does the line pick him up, or does the receiver become hot? Now concepts. Does the defense have the right look against that bunch formation, or is that a suspicious alignment? Oop, wait—Goff just changed the play at the line. Let’s start the process again.

 

At the eye of this swirling storm is Johnson. “Clear, clean, and concise,” Engstrand said of Johnson’s in-game demeanor. “He doesn’t get emotionally hijacked. He’s just …” Engstrand pauses and holds out a flat hand, palm facing the ground. “He’s here.”

Watch Johnson on the sideline for a practice, and it’s clear what Engstrand is talking about. Johnson does not celebrate, bemoan, gesticulate, or react. After Goff hits rookie tight end Sam LaPorta for a touchdown, the rest of the offense floods the end zone to celebrate. Johnson just walks away, eyes on his play sheet. Even as the first-team offense jogs off the field, Johnson does not speak to Goff. He’s getting ready to call plays for the second team.

 

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2023/8/14/23830935/how-detroit-lions-offensive-coordinator-ben-johnson-fixed-jared-goff

 

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[ixcuincle]

At rally in DC 

 

[ixcuincle]

We on TV, cbs in DC area 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by ixcuincle

[ixcuincle]

Free **** 

[Darth Tater]

2 hours ago, Chris 44 said:

After the Washington game the Giants Dallas game on Sunday night is the one I am most interested in. Hard for me to judge which team is better at this point. I lean toward Jones continuing to trend upward while I still hold firm in my belief that Dak has seen his better days. Would not surprise if Dallas eyes one of the QB's coming out next year.

This game, though very early, may hold a lot of what's in store for the division for the rest of the year. Might be a very entertaining game all around.

Its seems we usually can deal with Dallas in most big games even when both teams must win but we always seem to have problems against the Giants in games when even just our team needs a win.

[Going Commando]

Anyone notice how much Mahomes was pressing last night?  Trying to win the game with every throw, forcing the ball deep into crap coverages.  He wasn't reading the field and staying patient on some critical downs.  Maybe losing a relentlessly detail oriented sheriff for an OC hurts more than they expected.  They looked so much less focused and confident than they used to.

[Rex Tomb]

10 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

Anyone notice how much Mahomes was pressing last night?  Trying to win the game with every throw, forcing the ball deep into crap coverages.  He wasn't reading the field and staying patient on some critical downs.  Maybe losing a relentlessly detail oriented sheriff for an OC hurts more than they expected.  They looked so much less focused and confident than they used to.

I definitely noticed.  The play selection was really brutal to watch and made little sense.  I’m excited to see what EB can do with our offense now that the games actually matter.

 

BTW: why did Detroit spend a top ten pick on Jahmyr Gibbs and then only give it to him a handful of times.  Montgomery was much less explosive. Not making Gibbs the feature back seems foolish to me.  He’s no 3rd round pick.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Rex Tomb

[HoggLife]

5 minutes ago, Rex Tomb said:

I definitely noticed.  The play selection was really brutal to watch and made little sense.  I’m excited to see what EB can do with our offense now that the games actually matter.

 

BTW: why did Detroit spend a top ten pick on Jahmyr Gibbs and then only give it to him a handful of times.  Montgomery was much less explosive.

I think they were more wanting to dominate TOP and grind it out with Montgomery. Then get in a shootout with Gibbs. 

[oraphus]

1 hour ago, HoggLife said:

I think they were more wanting to dominate TOP and grind it out with Montgomery. Then get in a shootout with Gibbs. 

With rookie Rbs, knowing how to pass protect is the biggest issue. I would guess Gibbs sees more than half the snaps by mid season.. of course its possible that they continue the current split same as Swift used to have (which will piss off a lot of fantasy football owners that drafted Gibbs as a high upside rb2)

[MartinC]

8 hours ago, oraphus said:

Give me one great QB that was great without a true dominant #1 WR?

John Elway.

[SkinsFTW]

5 minutes ago, MartinC said:

John Elway.

Mahomes last year. 

 

And you could argue Brady for a large portion of his career. 

[MartinC]

9 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

Mahomes last year. 

 

And you could argue Brady for a large portion of his career. 

Watching Mahomes play last night with that group of receivers was painful. Like watching Rembrandt have to use a paint by numbers kit.